God's next Army

Hobbes

Anyone see this? I didn't get to see all of it but I did see was a bit disturbing.

It was a documentry on some university in America that is focusing on creating only solicitors/politicians so that they can change the culture of America to Christian fundimentalism.

The people in the school have to follow the bible to the word and if they break the rules they are thrown out, for example even 1 alcoholic drink will get you shunned. The Geology teacher teaches using Noah as examples instead of scientific methods, and the biology teacher using creationism to explain stuff.

While its hard to say they will make a dent or not but they reckon in 20-30 years America should be a place where they have laws similar to these guys.

Dirk Gently

Ahh, you beat me to it Hobbs. I was going to start a thread in Christianity to get their views on the subject. I always find these types of Documentaries far scarier than any horror film. It is clear that their aim is to cement the relationship between religion and state making them one of the same. It is frightening to see the influence and access to power that they have. They are basically being mass produced for the sole purpose of creating a right wing Christian state and they make no attempt to hide that fact. It is most depressing to see the rise of oppression in America, with these people clearly gaining more influence every day. I dont think it is hard to see if they will make a dent, they already made the dent are are gaining more influence and power all the time.

A state with no religious influence over its decision making does not discriminate against religion but a religious state does discriminate against everyone who does not conform to hard line Christianity. (And these people are hardline and oppressive, not moderate at all)
I can see a mass exodus of liberal and free thinking people across the boarders to Canada and to Europe with the rise of these fundamentalists to the highest organs of power in America. They are training right wing Christians to become judges and politicians and encourage them to assume power in order to bring about a Christian state. The scary part is that they are obviously succeeding.

trillianv

And people ask me why I moved from America. Yes it's more expensive here but at least the religious people here are very proudly religious. In America, people like this will now go into political and social power positions and start making changes quietly and slowly. Before you know it, America is a conservative right wings wet dream.

mcgarnicle

So there is some tv programme now proclaiming a Christian conspiracy to make America a fundamentalist Christian country and all you guys lap it up. How would you react if they were saying there was a Jewish conspiracy to take over America, an equally ridiculous idea only for some reason it is now cool to believe America is nothing but right wing lunatics

trillianv

mcgarnicle wrote:

So there is some tv programme now proclaiming a Christian conspiracy to make America a fundamentalist Christian country and all you guys lap it up. How would you react if they were saying there was a Jewish conspiracy to take over America, an equally ridiculous idea only for some reason it is now cool to believe America is nothing but right wing lunatics

I can tell you apart from sections that are more liberal and outspoken (i.e. San Francisco, Oregon, parts of New York, etc) the country has turned more towards fundamentalist right wing ideals. Laws are being passed that are barely constitutional, yet they are "for the country's best interests" as per the politicians. It is crazy. The Patriot Act will allow them to hold any allien up to 7 days with no charge. And this often gets extended. I am American and my own government scares me...it should scare you too!

Dirk Gently

mcgarnicle wrote:

So there is some tv programme now proclaiming a Christian conspiracy to make America a fundamentalist Christian country and all you guys lap it up. How would you react if they were saying there was a Jewish conspiracy to take over America, an equally ridiculous idea only for some reason it is now cool to believe America is nothing but right wing lunatics

Only it’s not a big secret conspiracy and its not based on one TV programme.Any observor of American politics would not deny the influence of the religious right. It is openly happening and is not denied. Politics in America is becoming more right wing and more religious based, this is a fact. The aim of this group is to formally make America a Christian state and they wish to be the people running that state. It is their only aim; they don't deny that they are training exclusively for the purpose of becoming leading politicians, lawyers and judges. It is not a conspiracy; it is a fact of life in America that these people are gaining more and more power with each graduation class every year with republicans taking the new graduates under their wing once they leave the college.

It might be a conspiracy if this group claimed their aims were something other than control the organs of power in the state but they don’t. They are clear about their intentions.

mcgarnicle

trillianv wrote:

I can tell you apart from sections that are more liberal and outspoken (i.e. San Francisco, Oregon, parts of New York, etc) the country has turned more towards fundamentalist right wing ideals. Laws are being passed that are barely constitutional, yet they are "for the country's best interests" as per the politicians. It is crazy. The Patriot Act will allow them to hold any allien up to 7 days with no charge. And this often gets extended. I am American and my own government scares me...it should scare you too!

Well I would imagine most countries turn to the right when they feel they are under threat or at war and whether you agree with the war or not it is clear that alot of Americans, probably the ones you are eluding to here, do agree with it. The Patriot act etc. has no Christian connotations as far as I know so I don't see how it shows an attempt to make America fundamentally Christian

mcgarnicle

clown bag wrote:

Only it’s not a big secret conspiracy and its not based on one TV programme.Any observor of American politics would not deny the influence of the religious right. It is openly happening and is not denied. Politics in America is becoming more right wing and more religious based, this is a fact. The aim of this group is to formally make America a Christian state and they wish to be the people running that state. It is their only aim; they don't deny that they are training exclusively for the purpose of becoming leading politicians, lawyers and judges. It is not a conspiracy; it is a fact of life in America that these people are gaining more and more power with each graduation class every year with republicans taking the new graduates under their wing once they leave the college.

It might be a conspiracy if this group claimed their aims were something other than control the organs of power in the state but they don’t. They are clear about their intentions.

There is a difference between the religious right influencing politics, which it does in plenty of countries other than American most notably our own, and potentially completely taking over the government and judiciary. What you are suggesting is a conspiracy you are saying they are conspiring, through this university, to fundamentally change American culture and society. A conspiracy does not have to be secret. I'd love to see the statistics to see just how many of these graduates actually make it into politics and become judges i.e. the members of the Supreme Court are graduates of the following law schools; Harvard (5), Northwestern (1), Yale (2) Harvard/Columbia (1). How many are from this crack pot university? Looks to me like people getting into the top jobs in America get there on merit, having gone through some of the best universities in the world.
If I say that there are some muslim schools in England does it mean that England is soon going to be run by muslim extremists?

Dirk Gently

mcgarnicle wrote:

There is a difference between the religious right influencing politics, which it does in plenty of countries other than American most notably our own, and potentially completely taking over the government and judiciary. What you are suggesting is a conspiracy you are saying they are conspiring, through this university, to fundamentally change American culture and society. A conspiracy does not have to be secret. I'd love to see the statistics to see just how many of these graduates actually make it into politics and become judges i.e. the members of the Supreme Court are graduates of the following law schools; Harvard (5), Northwestern (1), Yale (2) Harvard/Columbia (1). How many are from this crack pot university? Looks to me like people getting into the top jobs in America get there on merit, having gone through some of the best universities in the world.
If I say that there are some muslim schools in England does it mean that England is soon going to be run by muslim extremists?

You’re missing the whole point of this school. The mission statement of the school is exactly to completely take over the government and judiciary. That is the purpose of the school; it has no other purpose except to make America a Christian state by controlling the organs of power. The frightening thing is that the school is out performing the other colleges you mentioned and its students are actively sought by republican politicians to work for them.

Your point about Muslim schools is not relevant as those schools have not got the sole intention to train Muslims as politicians for the purpose of creating an Islamic state. Even if they were it still wouldn't be as frightening as in America at the moment as the party in power (the republicans) agree with this school and actively encourage the students to achieve their aims with the students in the college actively supporting the Republican Party and condemning the opposition. The link between the Republican Party and the Christian school is definite and strong, this is the worrying thing about the school.

mcgarnicle

clown bag wrote:

You’re missing the whole point of this school. The mission statement of the school is exactly to completely take over the government and judiciary. That is the purpose of the school; it has no other purpose except to make America a Christian state by controlling the organs of power. The frightening thing is that the school is out performing the other colleges you mentioned and its students are actively sought by republican politicians to work for them.

Your point about Muslim schools is not relevant as those schools have not got the sole intention to train Muslims as politicians for the purpose of creating an Islamic state. Even if they were it still wouldn't be as frightening as in America at the moment as the party in power (the republicans) agree with this school and actively encourage the students to achieve their aims with the students in the college actively supporting the Republican Party and condemning the opposition. The link between the Republican Party and the Christian school is definite and strong, this is the worrying thing about the school.

So basically one tv show says x,y,z about some crack pot university and you lap it up, that was my point in the first place. Any evidence for this other than what the tv show said?

My point about the muslim schools is relevent as there are reports that some of them do encourage muslim extremism, obviously they can't do this overtly but the point is the same. How does the Republican Party actively support this school, because the tv show said they do? What is the deffinate and strong link that you mention?

Terry

i hate when others ask this, but have you got a link?
not to the tv show, but maybe the schools website?

i'd like to read more about this from their perspective.

Terry

mcgarnicle, when you have a president who says that god is on his side in the war [strike]for oil[/strike] on terror, you can be fairly assured of his support for a right wing fundamentalist christian school.

pH

The funny thing about this - is that in doing this they (and sadly the rest of Amercia) will learn about evolution the hard way.

Ignoring the politics and morals it can be shown in theory (and has been shown in practice) that a capitalist free market out-produces a communist state controlled one.

Is it not also obvious (from world history) that a science driven economy, coupled with a secular state and personal freedom far out-competes a theocracy at all levels.

It would be impossible to have a the US as a theocracy with anything like the same wealth and productivity it enjoys today. So if the US wants to become a third world economy then fair enough, they can provide the migrant low-paid workers when to Asia and Africa when their economies have taken off.

mcgarnicle

julep wrote:

mcgarnicle, when you have a president who says that god is on his side in the war [strike]for oil[/strike] on terror, you can be fairly assured of his support for a right wing fundamentalist christian school.

Why is that? America is a Christian country, like it or not. If the leader of a moderate muslim country says he is guided by god does it mean that he is sympathetic to al queda? There is a difference between being devout and being fundamentalist. While Bush may act like he is a devout Christian now all the Bush bashers know that his past activities don't really suggest he is doing any more than trying to get votes with this persona so I doubt his attempt to grab votes would extend to totally supplanting liberal democracy with religious fundamentalism

Terry

pH wrote:

The funny thing about this - is that in doing this they (and sadly the rest of Amercia) will learn about evolution the hard way.

Ignoring the politics and morals it can be shown in theory (and has been shown in practice) that a capitalist free market out-produces a communist state controlled one.

Is it not also obvious (from world history) that a science driven economy, coupled with a secular state and personal freedom far out-competes a theocracy at all levels.

It would be impossible to have a the US as a theocracy with anything like the same wealth and productivity it enjoys today. So if the US wants to become a third world economy then fair enough, they can provide the migrant low-paid workers when to Asia and Africa when their economies have taken off.

well the key thing there is, america is a child state.
they don't pay attention to history.
the only historical events taught in their schools are american ones and anything else is portrayed in a romantic light.

Terry

mcgarnicle wrote:

Why is that? America is a Christian country, like it or not. If the leader of a moderate muslim country says he is guided by god does it mean that he is sympathetic to al queda? There is a difference between being devout and being fundamentalist. While Bush may act like he is a devout Christian now all the Bush bashers know that his past activities don't really suggest he is doing any more than trying to get votes with this persona so I doubt his attempt to grab votes would extend to totally supplanting liberal democracy with religious fundamentalism

you kind of answered your own question there.
yes, the majority of americans are christian and his stance does get him votes. the people behind this school have obviously picked up on this (i can't be too sure, as i only have the above posts to go on) and they too will get votes. the thing about this school is, it's agenda will only begin to bear fruit in about 20 years time.
they can pump out lawyers and politicians all they want, but these people need to find their own way in life after college. it only takes a few of them to make it to the upper echelons of power for their plan to begin. then the nepotism (is that the right word? i can never remember) begins.
they will undoubtedly gain support frok the bible belt states and all those other hell preaching nut balls.

Dirk Gently

I don’t think it is their intention to create a communist style government, quite the opposite. Their alliance with the republican party suggests free market neo liberal economics all the way with strict religious laws governing the population. How they compare neo-liberalism with feeding the world and helping the poor I don't know. They concentrate on reinforcing the family unit as a man and a woman with children (the woman staying at home to look after the kids)and outlawing non-Christian activities, including sex before marriage. Apparently rampant capitalism and Christian values go hand in hand.

linkys for julep - channel4 programme report

the college itself

mcgarnicle

pH wrote:

The funny thing about this - is that in doing this they (and sadly the rest of Amercia) will learn about evolution the hard way.

Ignoring the politics and morals it can be shown in theory (and has been shown in practice) that a capitalist free market out-produces a communist state controlled one.

So now the American right is actually communist? If you knew your history you would see that is pretty unlikely.

pH wrote:

Is it not also obvious (from world history) that a science driven economy, coupled with a secular state and personal freedom far out-competes a theocracy at all levels.

Not really, any examples? I'm sure there are plenty of examples in history when this was not the case.

pH wrote:

It would be impossible to have a the US as a theocracy with anything like the same wealth and productivity it enjoys today. So if the US wants to become a third world economy then fair enough, they can provide the migrant low-paid workers when to Asia and Africa when their economies have taken off.

I actually agree that if the US was to become a theocracy that the country would collapse, the point is this is clearly a ridiculous idea and will never ever happen.

Hobbes

mcgarnicle wrote:

So there is some tv programme now proclaiming a Christian conspiracy to make America a fundamentalist Christian country and all you guys lap it up.

Its not a conspiracy. They were very open with what they were doing and yes thier goal is to turn America into same as thier religon. Read it here..

http://www.phc.edu/about/default.asp

If they do or not is another story.

As for crackpot school.. take a look at the trustees. They have money.

http://www.phc.edu/about/trustees/default.asp

Nuttzz

Surprised it took til Wednesday for this to appear

So long as the republicans are in government they will have some success in getting graduates into positions where they can start their way up the ladder, however a change of government in the US would stunt their growth.

This college will only appeal to a niche, I cant see a college which bans booze and shagging having a mass appeal.

for those with the link fetish
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Henry_College

Cabaal

Really annoyed I missed this on Monday, been looking forward to it since I heard about it, any know if their going to re-air it?

mcgarnicle

Hobbes wrote:

Its not a conspiracy. They were very open with what they were doing and yes thier goal is to turn America into same as thier religon. Read it here..

http://www.phc.edu/about/default.asp

If they do or not is another story.

A conspiracy doesn't have to be secret. I don't deny this college exists and is full of crack pot christians, my point was so what? There are crazy people every where but other people in this thread seem to be giving this university alot more respect than it deserves. Just because it exists does not mean it will succeed.

pH

Cabaal wrote:

Really annoyed I missed this on Monday, been looking forward to it since I heard about it, any know if their going to re-air it?

DOCUMENTARY: God's Next Army
On: Channel 4 (104)
Date: Saturday 10th June 2006
Time: 03:50 to 04:50 (1 hour long)

Another chance to see Monday's documentary which examines how the students of Patrick Henry College have provided the current White House administration with more interns than any other college in America.
(Repeat, Subtitles)

Excerpt taken from DigiGuide - the world's best TV guide available from http://www.getdigiguide.com/

Dirk Gently

Cabaal wrote:

Really annoyed I missed this on Monday, been looking forward to it since I heard about it, any know if their going to re-air it?

I think it will be repeated this weekend sometime. Go to channel4.com and check out their schedule. I think it will be in the early hours on Friday or Saturday night. Might want to set you recorder for it. It’s usually a 3am job when they repeat stuff. There are a lot of hardline right Christian schools in America but the difference with this one seems to be their aim to eventually control government through politicising the students.

Dirk Gently

mcgarnicle wrote:

A conspiracy doesn't have to be secret. I don't deny this college exists and is full of crack pot christians, my point was so what? There are crazy people every where but other people in this thread seem to be giving this university alot more respect than it deserves. Just because it exists does not mean it will succeed.

The fact is they are succeeding in placing students in positions of government more so than other schools. This after only a few years, if the trend continues 20 years down the line washinton will be dominated by this group ( not taking into account that the far right in the republican party are in power already which is bad enough)

Hobbes

Like I said this isn't just some two bit crackpot place.

Just looking at some of the bios on the trustees (that I could find easily).

Jack W. Haye - "Senior Vice President and National Manager of the Treasury Management Consulting Practice for Wells Fargo Bank."

Barbara Hodel - Husband served under Reagen as secretary of energy. Major connections with the Christian Coalition

Paul De Pree - Head of Christian Home Educators of Midland Ministry

Janet Ashcroft (Ashcrofts wife) - Served the state of Missouri as a first lady, special assistant to the Attorney General, and as general counsel for the Department of Revenue.

Kenneth L. Connor - President of Family Research Council (far right wing group).

James R. Leininger - "conservative and devoutly religious Republican businessman." Leininger is one of the biggest funders of far-right causes in Texas. During the decade 1987-1997, Leininger "spent more than $1.4 million of his personal fortune to affect how Texans vote and another $3.2 million to change how Texans think on political issues such as tort reform and private school vouchers."

John E. Urban - Retired partner of Goldman Sachs.

Also on my travels found that previous members of the school currently work under Bushes Administration.

So yes I would take them serious.

Zombrex

mcgarnicle wrote:

A conspiracy doesn't have to be secret. I don't deny this college exists and is full of crack pot christians, my point was so what? There are crazy people every where but other people in this thread seem to be giving this university alot more respect than it deserves. Just because it exists does not mean it will succeed.

You seem to be slightly underestimating the growth and power the Christian Fundamentalist Right has in America at the moment. We are not talking about a few crack pots, we are talking about a political movement that has the votes of millions of Americans and is the most significant individual voting group within the Republican party.

There are schools like this all over America. More worrying is the attacks by the CFR on more established schools and universities, as evident with the Creationist battles of recent years in school boards up and down America.

I grant you this school is an extreme example, and with out providing its students with a proper education I doubt they will go very far. But at the same time, this is the tip of the iceberge of a much larger problem of the rise of religious fundamentalism in America at the moment.

Terry

pH wrote:

mcgarnicle wrote:

Is it not also obvious (from world history) that a science driven economy, coupled with a secular state and personal freedom far out-competes a theocracy at all levels.

Not really, any examples? I'm sure there are plenty of examples in history when this was not the case.

the simplest and quickest answer is right in front of you.
the second people got off their knees and stopped listening to the church, this country prospered.
yes, we had outside help, but the decline in the catholic churches influence and the growing prosperity of this country is not coincidental in my opinion.


thanks for the links, clown bag. (not words i ever thought i would write)

mcgarnicle

julep wrote:

the simplest and quickest answer is right in front of you.
the second people got off their knees and stopped listening to the church, this country prospered.
yes, we had outside help, but the decline in the catholic churches influence and the growing prosperity of this country is not coincidental in my opinion.


thanks for the links, clown bag. (not words i ever thought i would write)

No it is not a coincidence it's generally accepted that a growth in prosperity leads to a decline in religious ferver, not so much that a decline in religious ferver leads to growing prosperity.

Calina

mcgarnicle wrote:

No it is not a coincidence it's generally accepted that a growth in prosperity leads to a decline in religious ferver, not so much that a decline in religious ferver leads to growing prosperity.

Except the US is one of the wealthiest countries and it doesn't follow that decline.

mcgarnicle

US = Decline in prosperity leads to increase in religious ferver. That is of course if you believe the US is swinging more to the religious extreme, which I don't

Dirk Gently

mcgarnicle wrote:

if you believe the US is swinging more to the religious extreme, which I don't

What would convince you?

mcgarnicle

More evidence than a garbage channel's "documentary" would be a start. I just think the idea that America is turning into a fundamentalist christian state is a way for detractors to dismiss American condemnation of muslim extremism. I don't really see anything new in America at the moment, there has always been a strong religious right. Bush might be pandering to them more than Clinton did but I'm pretty sure there was a big religious debate when Reagan was in power too.

Dyr

A college that tries to churn out students with the same moral and social values of those that run it so they can shape society through their graduate's? Im shocked!
oh wait im not, thats pretty much what happens here with them (dang) liberals

Dirk Gently

Does the fact that more and more people with strong religious views are getting into positions of power and influence not alarm you. Not saying religious people shouldn't be in power but translating that religion into state policy is dangerous.

Hobbes

mcgarnicle wrote:

More evidence than a garbage channel's "documentary" would be a start.

You mean the list of people I gave that are running the school doesn't mean anything? Even read up on the sites they run.

It has nothing to do with Muslim extremism. That is just FOTM (we have since moved onto Mexicans being the latestest bug-a-boo).

Read thier agenda and what they have done so far. You have far-Right judges added that will change the laws of the land long after Bush has left office. They are campaigning to stamp out homosexuality, in fact one of the links I added even details a bill going through congress today and how they paid huge amounts of money to help get it passed (will ban gay marriages at a federal level). They plan to overturn Roe vs Wade, again something that is currently trying to go through. They want Creationism taught instead of proper science and are responsible for a lot of the cases where its being forced in schools and no more seperation of church and state.

Bush might be pandering to them more than Clinton

Do your research. Bush is one of them.

Bambi wrote:

A college that tries to churn out students with the same moral and social values of those that run it so they can shape society through their graduate's? Im shocked!
oh wait im not, thats pretty much what happens here with them (dang) liberals

Actually that particular school is more cult like. For example if anyone breaks the "Statement of Biblical Worldview" is shunned from the rest of the school.

mcgarnicle

Hobbes wrote:

You mean the list of people I gave that are running the school doesn't mean anything? Even read up on the sites they run.

It has nothing to do with Muslim extremism. That is just FOTM (we have since moved onto Mexicans being the latestest bug-a-boo).

Read thier agenda and what they have done so far. You have far-Right judges added that will change the laws of the land long after Bush has left office. They are campaigning to stamp out homosexuality, in fact one of the links I added even details a bill going through congress today and how they paid huge amounts of money to help get it passed (will ban gay marriages at a federal level). They plan to overturn Roe vs Wade, again something that is currently trying to go through. They want Creationism taught instead of proper science and are responsible for a lot of the cases where its being forced in schools and no more seperation of church and state.



Do your research. Bush is one of them.

So a far right Christian group are opposed to homosexuality, and abortion? Is that news? The trustees don't seem that impressive to me, maybe you know something I don't about how important these people are?
How can these judges change the law exacltly, it has been suggested here that these guys are going to make laws favouring Christianity over other religions, this would require the constitution to be changed and this would require control over both congress and the supreme court. I would say this is impossible.

I have done my research, Bush speaks their language but he is not one of them

Dyr

In reality we just replaced the mores and sacred cow's of the religious nutter's with the more's and sacred cows of the PC right thinking crowd.

Obviously american bible bashing fundamentalist's are bad news but they're nearly the same breed as the PC thought police that are currently imposing their own value's on everyone else these day's. As a matter of fact, i think they feed off each other. The times they are a changin' back as tim robbins said in some film thingy

Schuhart

There seems to be an incredible willingness to adopt fundamentalist beliefs by people who really should know better. I find it hard to believe such adoption to be unconscious – i.e. at some level people must make a conscious decision that they can’t hack life head on and they want to vanish into some system of belief that will allow them to function through its rules.

I don’t know if this view might seem weird, unclear or just plain irrelevant. For my part, its been on my mind for a while but when I read this story about people acting out some slave cult idea culled from a science fiction novel I felt there was no denying the fact that many people just want to immerse themselves in a system of belief, even if they know it to be false. They don’t want to think for themselves, and enjoy acting out roles.

In Ray Bradburys’ Fahrenheit 451, the reason books are burnt is not because some totalitarian regime wants to suppress independent thought. Its because people don’t care, and books are just making them unhappy anyway by taking their minds where they would rather not go. I think he expressed a core truth that we see here again. Yes, people may well embrace any system of fundamentalism that relieves them of the responsibility of standing on their own two feet in the world.

If this agenda is successful, it won't just be because of some institution run by well-resourced and competent people. That helps, but what makes it float is a supreme willingness of many people to embrace this kind of nonsense.

mcgarnicle

clown bag wrote:

Does the fact that more and more people with strong religious views are getting into positions of power and influence not alarm you. Not saying religious people shouldn't be in power but translating that religion into state policy is dangerous.

Not particularly as I don't buy it. I don't see evidence that there are more religious people in power now than there have been in the past.

Hobbes

mcgarnicle wrote:

So a far right Christian group are opposed to homosexuality, and abortion? Is that news?

On its own no, but if you read on the sites you will see they are pumping serious money and people into the government to get thier agenda across.

The trustees don't seem that impressive to me, maybe you know something I don't about how important these people are?

Looks that way.

How can these judges change the law exacltly

Supreme court Judges are the ones in the US that set the laws in the event of the disputes. They even voted in Bush for the first time.

Currently with the recent two new changes to the list Bush has stacked it to the far-right agenda. For example Judge Roberts is very anti-abortion and it is quite possible they will be able to get Roe vs Wade overturned.

You might remember him from the large group of far-right christian fundementalists who were allowed into the hall where the interview for his job was being held and they blessed all the seats and held prayers outside while he was being questioned for the job.

it has been suggested here that these guys are going to make laws favouring Christianity over other religions, this would require the constitution to be changed and this would require control over both congress and the supreme court. I would say this is impossible.

They already have both. :rolleyes:

While the seperation of church and state may be hard one to break, they have been trying.

Again another example is gay marriages. Currently it is a state issue, however they want to implement a law that makes it illegal at a federal level.

I have done my research, Bush speaks their language but he is not one of them

You need to research some more.
- Born again christian
- Said that "Jesus Christ favorite political philosopher"
- Said that "God speaks through me"
- Supports creationism
- Supports hetrosexual marriages only
- anti-abortion
- reports of holding prayer meetings in the whitehouse
- Referred to fight against anti-terrorism as "Crusade"
- Had prayers held at his inauguration.
- Actually has people from the university in his administration.

I could go on, but this stuff isn't new at all. What I found new was that there was an actual university where they were churning out an almost cult-like group to take control of the US government.

Nuttzz

at lot of those things could be levelled at irish politicals too i'm sure.

the fact that they are so open about their objectives really leaves them open to being sidelined once a democratic administration gets into power.

while they have the presidents ear at present, that doesnt mean they will always have it.

Anybody else notice the total lack of social skills of a lot of the students? They will get a wake up call in the real world

pete

Nuttzz wrote:

at lot of those things could be levelled at irish politicals too i'm sure.

the fact that they are so open about their objectives really leaves them open to being sidelined once a democratic administration gets into power.

while they have the presidents ear at present, that doesnt mean they will always have it.

Anybody else notice the total lack of social skills of a lot of the students? They will get a wake up call in the real world

And yet they were apparently exceedingly talented debaters* - didn't they say they took home as many trophys as all other competitors put together at some national national debating competition? - who also have a huge focus on "moot court"

Students also compete in the American Collegiate Moot Court Association (ACMA), where they carried away four of the top honors at the ACMA 2005 National Tournament, including Winning Team and 1st Place Orator. Moot court is a form of debate competition designed to simulate appellate court proceedings. Teams of two students function as co-counsels and stand before a panel of judges to argue one side of a legal matter. Then, in later rounds, the same teams defend the opposite position.

(from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Henry_College)

Their goal wasn't so much "getting the president's ear" as it was getting into positions of great legal and legislative influence (state attorney general being one i specifically remember being mentioned)

* insert obvious pun

mcgarnicle

Hobbes wrote:

Looks that way.

Well care to enlighten us?

Hobbes wrote:

Supreme court Judges are the ones in the US that set the laws in the event of the disputes. They even voted in Bush for the first time.

Yes and while some of them are Republicans, they are not fundamentalist Christians and none of them are from this crack pot university, like I pointed out in an earlier post the judges in the supreme court are all from Harvard, Yale and Georgetown, the three most prestigious law schools in America, they deserve to be there and are not a part of "God's next army". Bush may choose Republicans when he gets the chance but so what, Democrats do the same, this is not news.

Hobbes wrote:

Currently with the recent two new changes to the list Bush has stacked it to the far-right agenda. For example Judge Roberts is very anti-abortion and it is quite possible they will be able to get Roe vs Wade overturned.

Well people have been trying to have Roe vs Wade overturned since 1973, again, what is new here?

Hobbes wrote:

You might remember him from the large group of far-right christian fundementalists who were allowed into the hall where the interview for his job was being held and they blessed all the seats and held prayers outside while he was being questioned for the job.

No I don't remember this, even if it is true, so what? The Brazilian football team bless themselves and pray before football games, are they fundamentalist christians? Modonna used to pray before concerts, certainly not a fundamentalist christian. People do these things for luck.

Hobbes wrote:

They already have both. :rolleyes:

Not to the extent where they can re-write the constitution to their heart's content and you are seriously deluded if you think that Republicans in congress will follow some sort of whip ideals and support fundamental constitutional change. Say what you like about conservative Americans, they are passionate about their country and when it comes down to it I would say that many hold the constitution in higher esteem than the bible.

Hobbes wrote:

Again another example is gay marriages. Currently it is a state issue, however they want to implement a law that makes it illegal at a federal level.

That is hardly a fundamental Christian idea though is it?

Hobbes wrote:

You need to research some more.
- Born again christian

Show me one US President that wasn't a pretty devout Christian, I think it has been argued that Abe Lincoln only paid lip service to it but apart from that I think the rest were pretty set in their beliefs. Bush is certainly not unique here.

Hobbes wrote:

- Said that "Jesus Christ favorite political philosopher"

In that he feels that Jesus changed his own life for the better, what is the harm in this belief? Should the president of America be required to surpress his religious beliefs?

Hobbes wrote:

- Said that "God speaks through me"

According to a few Old Order Amish guys that he met behind closed doors, hardly deffinitive.

Hobbes wrote:

- Supports creationism

No he doesn't, he supports the idea of people being given all the information and being allowed to make up their own minds. As far as I am aware he has never said he actually believes it himself. Since he has never mentioned it prior to the current debate it is clear he is doing it for political reasons and could not give a fiddlers **** one way or the other.

Hobbes wrote:

- Supports hetrosexual marriages only
- anti-abortion
- reports of holding prayer meetings in the whitehouse
- Had prayers held at his inauguration.

How is this fundamentalist christianity, sounds like regular, maybe devout christianity to me.

Hobbes wrote:

- Referred to fight against anti-terrorism as "Crusade"

No he reffered to a "crusade against terrorism", not a "Crusade", the word may have negative connotations when considered in a christian vs muslim context but it is reading too much into the statement and it's pretty obvious he didn't mean it that way.

Hobbes wrote:

- Actually has people from the university in his administration.

Who?

oscarBravo

mcgarnicle wrote:

More evidence than a garbage channel's "documentary" would be a start.

Read this book and come back to us.

mcgarnicle

Sorry that's not evidence, that's a piece of opinion

Hobbes

mcgarnicle wrote:

Well care to enlighten us?

You have a group of very powerful people both with money and government ties and some leaders of groups that have millions with the same agenda.

Yes and while some of them are Republicans, they are not fundamentalist Christians and none of them are from this crack pot university

You don't need them all to be, you only need the majority to be. Which is what you have now.

Well people have been trying to have Roe vs Wade overturned since 1973, again, what is new here?

They are now in a position to do it.

No I don't remember this, even if it is true, so what?

What do you mean, if it is true? Of course its true. So what? There was a group of 10 or so people without authorisation let into a room to pour holy water on all the seats before the event.

If it had been say Muslims doing the same thing (to ensure thier god voted the right person in) they would all be taking a holiday in gitmo.

Not to the extent where they can re-write the constitution to their heart's content

Like what for example? Have you even read any of the laws enacted since Bush got to office?

No he doesn't, he supports the idea of people being given all the information and being allowed to make up their own minds.

Right, so why only say this about Creationism and not about any other religion being taught in schools? Creationism is a bunk science. Why not teach Telepathy in schools then? It has about as much credibility as creationism.

Would you want your child to believe that soil layers are caused by Noah and the great flood, that humans co-existed peacefully with dinosaurs and that all fossils that fall outside of the date that the bible says the world is created were in fact created by god to begin with?

Who?

Paul Bonicelli, - Prior dean of academic affairs at Patrick Henry College. Now the boss of USAID's democracy and governance programs. Position assigned by Bush.

Ashcrofts wife is on the board of PHC.

Rebekah McDonald - A PHC 2002 graduate, accepted a position in the Bush Administration as the Executive Assistant to the Director of Strategic Initiatives in the White House. "Rebekah's position offers her some of the best practical experience possible for someone interested in influencing politics and government".

Rachel Kozlowski, Faith Brobst, and Christy Ross - Recently given internships in the Dept of Labour (50 places a year assigned).

Michael Farris - testified before the U.S. Senate's Subcommittee on the Constitution. (not really a job but there to try and get same-sex marriages banned).

Derreck Hofrichter - intern in the Public Liaison's Office (had met Bush directly beforehand)

Thats just 5 seconds in google and only focusing on direct ties to the government. If you go into law/media then it gets even bigger.

Btw, calling it a crackpot college when its listed in the top 10 conservative colleges doesn't say much for the other colleges. Also the heads of it were invited to the Oval Office in 2003.

Hobbes

Just curious what exactly would be "evidence" to you? Appears you are just dismissing it offhand.

oscarBravo

mcgarnicle wrote:

Sorry that's not evidence, that's a piece of opinion

Have you actually read the (thoroughly researched, clearly presented and well-balanced) book? Or are you dismissing it because it doesn't seem to support your point of view?

Per Hobbes, what exactly would constitute evidence?

pete

oscarBravo wrote:

Have you actually read the (thoroughly researched, clearly presented and well-balanced) book?

Or actually seen the programme in question, in which they were quite clear what they aspired to for that matter.

mcgarnicle

Hobbes wrote:

You have a group of very powerful people both with money and government ties and some leaders of groups that have millions with the same agenda.

You have decided to ignore most of the answers I gave in my last post, many of them answer the questions you are asking now so I will just refer you back to my previous post.
As for the quote above quote it was implied they were extremely prominent figures, they are not. Ashcroft's wife is the only example that strikes me, the rest may have money but the don't look all that important.

Hobbes wrote:

You don't need them all to be, you only need the majority to be. Which is what you have now.

No it isn't. See previous post. The majority are Republicans not fundamentalist Christians, do the two go hand in hand?

Hobbes wrote:

They are now in a position to do it.

They have been in that position before.

Hobbes wrote:

What do you mean, if it is true? Of course its true. So what? There was a group of 10 or so people without authorisation let into a room to pour holy water on all the seats before the event.

See previous post, I explained why I said so what.

Hobbes wrote:

If it had been say Muslims doing the same thing (to ensure thier god voted the right person in) they would all be taking a holiday in gitmo.

Unlikely

Hobbes wrote:

Like what for example? Have you even read any of the laws enacted since Bush got to office?

Have any of these laws changed the constitution?

Hobbes wrote:

Right, so why only say this about Creationism and not about any other religion being taught in schools? Creationism is a bunk science. Why not teach Telepathy in schools then? It has about as much credibility as creationism.

Like I said he is saying it for political reasons, his voters are Christians, not telepaths. If he gave credence to telepathy it would obviously hurt him politicaly rather than help.

Hobbes wrote:

Would you want your child to believe that soil layers are caused by Noah and the great flood, that humans co-existed peacefully with dinosaurs and that all fossils that fall outside of the date that the bible says the world is created were in fact created by god to begin with?

Why is what I want relevent to this argument? I never implied I agreed with creationist ideas, my point was Bush has never said he does either. By saying he thinks people should be given the choice Bush is not giving support to creationism while ,at the same time, not isolating his voters that do support it. If you look back at this guy's history you will he is pretty politically astute, shamelessly so infact.

Hobbes wrote:

Paul Bonicelli, - Prior dean of academic affairs at Patrick Henry College. Now the boss of USAID's democracy and governance programs. Position assigned by Bush.

Ashcrofts wife is on the board of PHC.

Rebekah McDonald - A PHC 2002 graduate, accepted a position in the Bush Administration as the Executive Assistant to the Director of Strategic Initiatives in the White House. "Rebekah's position offers her some of the best practical experience possible for someone interested in influencing politics and government".

Rachel Kozlowski, Faith Brobst, and Christy Ross - Recently given internships in the Dept of Labour (50 places a year assigned).

Michael Farris - testified before the U.S. Senate's Subcommittee on the Constitution. (not really a job but there to try and get same-sex marriages banned).

Derreck Hofrichter - intern in the Public Liaison's Office (had met Bush directly beforehand)

Thats just 5 seconds in google and only focusing on direct ties to the government. If you go into law/media then it gets even bigger.

So in other words you can't name anyone in the Bush administration.

Hobbes wrote:

Btw, calling it a crackpot college when its listed in the top 10 conservative colleges doesn't say much for the other colleges. Also the heads of it were invited to the Oval Office in 2003.

What list?