Law Degrees

Cole

I'm currently in the selection process for a number of universities/private colleges for their law degree programs, as a mature student.

Can I get opinions on the law degrees at the various institutions? I have not attended any of the universities before, so my perception is only based on what I've heard or read, some of it on these boards.

Is there a kind of league table of law degrees within the legal profession?
If I get the option of being able to choose between a couple of CAO offers at different places, I would like as much info as to where is best.

Any feedback appreciated..thanks.

hullaballoo

Obviously, Trinity has the most widely-recognised law degree course. It may not actually be the best, but Trinity is world-reknowned, so there's an advantage inherent to that. UCD offers a good law degree, as does UCC and NUIG. You're better off not going to the likes of Portobello or Griffith to do a primary degree, they don't have the same credentials.

Cole

Thanks hullaballo..that is more or less the perception I had regarding the different institutions.
I'm inclined to avoid the private colleges (academic and financial reasons)..can't help feeling that the degree is a slightly lesser one that from a university.

Can I take it that there is little or no real difference between the Trinity, UCD, UCC and NUIG law degrees..I have very little knowledge of the Cork and Galway universities as acamdemic institutions.

hullaballoo

The only differences between those institutions are of prestige rather than academy. It's really up to you which one you pick. If I was picking a straight law degree, I'd go for Trinity as they do four years, and a four year degree probably looks better.

maidhc

hullaballoo wrote:

If I was picking a straight law degree, I'd go for Trinity as they do four years, and a four year degree probably looks better.

But it is an extra in year in which you could get an LLM from UCD or UCC.

Degrees from private insitiutions tend to get ridiculed a little by some, and certainly are not as valuable as one from an NUI college. Certainly the standard of lecturer the likes of Griffith has is well below what you will find in a proper university.

dermot_sheehan

maidhc wrote:

But it is an extra in year in which you could get an LLM from UCD or UCC.

But you can do extra subjects then and cover more areas which is appealing when applying for training contracts. Also trinity recognises our extra year by giving us all M.A.'s 3 years after we graduate.

EdgarAllenPoo

I went to Portobello, don't go. It's horribly disorganised and unprofessional. GCD I don't know about but from talking to some friends there, if you do go for the private option that would be the one to go for.

kelloggs

what about Business & Legal in UCD? 4 years, basically gives you a law degree and a commerce degree with option to specialise in your last year. i did it and its done me no harm! currently doing a masters in trinity and while i prefer the lecturers in here, i preferred the UCD facilities a lot more. which is always an important factor.

Thirdfox

UCD,D have their Paul Anthony McDermott (writer of many leading law books in Ireland - Contracts)
Trinity have Gerry Whyte and Gerard Hogan - writers of the leading Constitutional text in Ireland, William Binchy - co-writer of the leading Tort text here. We also have some other very well known legal academics teaching here (as do UCD,D I'm sure).

Don't know who teaches at Cork or Galway...

EdgarAllenPoo

I think David Gwynn Morgan lectures in UCC, or at least used to, I'm not sure.

Thirdfox

Read his book on the separation of powers, angry man!

Maybe we should have a law book discussion thread (what's the most useful book you've read etc.)

Hullabaloo?

EdgarAllenPoo

Not a bad idea, I would say the Constitutional Law Nutshell by Fergus Ryan. Quite readable and uncomplicated.

maidhc

GDM wrote:

I think David Gwynn Morgan lectures in UCC, or at least used to, I'm not sure.

He does still.
http://www.ucc.ie/en/lawsite/staff/

hullaballoo

Thirdfox wrote:

Read his book on the separation of powers, angry man!

Maybe we should have a law book discussion thread (what's the most useful book you've read etc.)

Hullabaloo?

You start it and if it takes off, we'll sticky it.

Sangre

kelloggs wrote:

what about Business & Legal in UCD? 4 years, basically gives you a law degree and a commerce degree with option to specialise in your last year. i did it and its done me no harm! currently doing a masters in trinity and while i prefer the lecturers in here, i preferred the UCD facilities a lot more. which is always an important factor.

Most of the BBLS lecturers aren't the same for BCL.

I've just got my BCL and took the UCD route over Trinity. I've now applied to do my LLM in Trinity so as to broaden my scope.
While Trinity offers a 4 year degree they actually do less hours per week so I'm not sure if there is much more covered.
Prestigue wise there is actually no difference between UCD and Trinty (the chief justice or AG have never gone to Trinity ). Both have to be assesed on their different merits and what you want.

UCD has an excellent international/erasumus programme with loads of places on offer. The new modularisation/horizons programs has done some great things for the degree including more current assessment and more subjects offered. There are also new choices like Law and Polticis etc..

Thirdfox

We have 11 hours a week (including seminar work) - supposed to spend 30 in the library (few, if any, do).

What are your hours like?

From a not-unbiased viewpoint I would have thought that Trinity has greater prestige (especially in the US where people might say it in the same breath as Cambridge or Oxford?) Indeed you can choose to get an Oxford degree instead of an University of Dublin degree at the end of your studies in Trinity... might be branded a traitor though

Sangre

Actually thats true, internationally any Trinity degree will have a much higher prestige. Good thing law degrees don't travel well.

The first years have a very different degree to what we had but its a few more than 11 hours with 6 subjects a week (5 law and one legal writing). Had an ex who was in 1st year Trinity when I was 1st Ucd so I managed to get both sides of the coin mostly. She only did 4 subjects excluding tutorials etc., That still the same?

EdgarAllenPoo

Sangre wrote:

Most of the BBLS lecturers aren't the same for BCL.

I've just got my BCL and took the UCD route over Trinity. I've now applied to do my LLM in Trinity so as to broaden my scope.
While Trinity offers a 4 year degree they actually do less hours per week so I'm not sure if there is much more covered.
Prestigue wise there is actually no difference between UCD and Trinty (the chief justice or AG have never gone to Trinity ). Both have to be assesed on their different merits and what you want.

UCD has an excellent international/erasumus programme with loads of places on offer. The new modularisation/horizons programs has done some great things for the degree including more current assessment and more subjects offered. There are also new choices like Law and Polticis etc..

Did you know that Trinity ranks 60th place out of 200( it may be 100 I can't rmember) on a list of well respected colleges and universiteis in the world. I've said it and I know people in Trinity that have said it, the only people that think Trinity is the be all and end all are the students and lecturers who go there.

Where I went(although I wouldn't really rate it) we had 12 hours of lectures(three per subject) and four hours of tutorials, we told to spend at least twenty hours in the library/Studying but it(the library) was a joke.

focusing

There's absolutely no point wasting an extra year doing a four-year law degree, especially as a mature student. Amazingly, Trinity cover the same number of subjects and do the same number of contact hours in four years as the UCD BCL do in 3.

And a Masters you get for filling in a form and sending a cheque won't have much value in the job market, it could even make you look like a chancer.

If you're going to spend a fourth year, think of doing a masters or a four-year joint degree. For instance, in UCD BBLS, Law with Politics / History / Philosophy, BCL/Maîtrise/French Law, in Trinity Law with French or German, or the BA in NUI Galway. There's a general LLM in Trinity, a Commercial and an EU LLM in UCD, Criminal Justice in UCC looks good, Human Rights Law in NUI,G, Research Masters almost everywhere, etc.

The best staff are in Trinity and UCD.

If you want to qualify as a lawyer you'd probably be faster doing the one year diploma in DIT or the two year part-time diploma in King's Inns.

Thirdfox

Sangre: yep, it's still four subjects a year (Tort, Constitution, Criminal and Legal writing for 1st year).

kelloggs

Sangre wrote:

Most of the BBLS lecturers aren't the same for BCL.

So? do law get the better lecturers while B&L are made do with make weights?

dermot_sheehan

GDM wrote:

Did you know that Trinity ranks 60th place out of 200( it may be 100 I can't rmember) on a list of well respected colleges and universiteis in the world. I've said it and I know people in Trinity that have said it, the only people that think Trinity is the be all and end all are the students and lecturers who go there.

Where I went(although I wouldn't really rate it) we had 12 hours of lectures(three per subject) and four hours of tutorials, we told to spend at least twenty hours in the library/Studying but it(the library) was a joke.

I assume you mean the Shanghai rankings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_Ranking_of_World_Universities

Which with it's heavy emphasis towards science (universities are given points for number of nobel laureates that went there and field medal winners), it disadvantages universities such as TCD with a large Humanities faculty. For example places like ucsd (13) and uni pennslyvania (15)are ranked very highly, whilst places like the London School of Economics get a very low ranking (203-300, same as TCD incidently). For those who care, UCC and UCD both got 401-500.
Using these rankings, especially for deciding which law course best seems misguided.


Law is mostly a self learned subject, the lecture tells you the basic details of concepts and principles in a lecture. You go into further detail in seminars, however most of your learning will be done in the library in the runup to exams.

besty

kelloggs wrote:

Sangre wrote:

Most of the BBLS lecturers aren't the same for BCL.

So? do law get the better lecturers while B&L are made do with make weights?

No. There are better and weaker lecturers in both courses IMO and from anecdotal accounts I've heard from friends in BCL. For example, the McDermott brothers are widely regarded as top notch lecturers. James takes contract in 1st year BCL. BBLS have a different lecturer. Conversely, BBLS have Paul Anthony Mc Dermott for tort in first year and criminal in second. BCL, again, have different lecturers.

Some are the same, e.g. Andrew Lyall for land law.

EdgarAllenPoo

Did Paul Anthony McDermott start writing textbooks when hee was twelve? How old is he and how many books has he written?

hullaballoo

He's just over 30. No idea how many books he's written.

focusing

Off the top of my head:

Prison Law, Res Judicatta (Double Jepordy), Contract Law and Criminal Law

All of which are absolutely top notch.

Am I forgetting some more?

kelloggs

PMcD is such a legend its unreal, you would be forgiven for thinking he may be working on a 37 hour day or something though!

Cole

Thanks for all the feedback to my initial questions regarding the different law schools.

I have applied to every law school in the country ( I think!) Already found out that my Trinity and UCD applications were unsuccessful.

Thinking positively..I might have offers from UCC, NUIG and the private colleges..inclined to avoid the private places if possible.

Any further opinions on the above mentioned? Anyone with particular knowledge/experience of either?

Thanks again.

Sangre

Why do you want to do the degree? To study law or become a lawyer? If its the latter you have a much wider range of choices.

Also have you applied to Queens?

Cole

I would like to be a lawyer, but want to study for a full law degree first.
I am not a graduate, so this is also an opportunity to further my education.

Didn't think of applying to Queens to be honest.

focusing

You may as well take advantage of free fees then.

UCC & NUI,G both have great social scenes btw.

hada

am a BCL in NUIG. Having had enough points to do any law degree in the country, I simply cannot agree with what some posts have said that trinity/ucd students will (ahem) naturally be seen as having graduated with a degree superior to that of ucc, ul, queens, nuig etc.. God forbid a prospective employer would prefer a law student who graduates from a non dublin based uni with a 1.1 over that of a dublin law school graduate with a lower final grade :rolleyes:

the staff here at galway are fantastic. Conor Hanly teaches criminal law, Ursula Connolly (author of nutshells tort and about to be co-author of a comprehensive casebook of irish tort law with Shivaun Quinlivan), Shivaun Quinlivan - the irish representative on the EU Network or Legal Experts on Non-Discrimination, external examiner for The Honourable Society of King's Inns, an external lecturer to the Law Society of Ireland, teaches constitutional, tort, and disability law. Padraic Mckenna, Donncha O'Connell, Larry Donnelly, the list goes on..

Oh and Mrs. Justice Catherine McGuinness has recently been appointed as an adjunct professor to the LLM in Public Law also.

Besides that, one can expect reasonable hours, (varying from 12hours a week, increasing as one progesses throughout the 3 year course), a good law library, and a very close and seriously friendly atmosphere within the law facutly (among students themselves and between the students and their respective lecturers) Also there is a very high percentage of 1.1s and 2.1s graduating from the BCL course each year, with an equally high percentage completing the entrance exams to both Black hall and King's Inns.

Overall it's really up to you where you want to study. Each uni will naturally have benefits and disadvantages, but i believe it to be completely up to the student themself to decide to what extent such "disadvantages" should limit their prospective legal futures.

Hope everything works out for you.

ps. on a side note, we do have a number of mature students in our class (from the 23 year old mark to 27yrs old) They mix as much with us as if they had just done the leaving cert last year. They all come from different academic backgrounds, and all of them enjoy and participate in the course as much as we do.

PonderStibbons

Sort of on the same topic - sorry for 'jacking your thread OP. Does anyone have any information on postgraduate law degrees you can enter from any discipline? I'm doing an English and History B.A. in UL at the moment, unfortunately I can't see myself getting more than a 2.1, but am thinking of doing a postgraduate law degree when I'm finished. I know UL has an LLB programme that is two years long, but I would be a bit worried about UL's reputation for that kind of stuff. Are there any other similar courses in country? Thanks.

hada

PonderStibbons wrote:

Sort of on the same topic - sorry for 'jacking your thread OP. Does anyone have any information on postgraduate law degrees you can enter from any discipline? I'm doing an English and History B.A. in UL at the moment, unfortunately I can't see myself getting more than a 2.1, but am thinking of doing a postgraduate law degree when I'm finished. I know UL has an LLB programme that is two years long, but I would be a bit worried about UL's reputation for that kind of stuff. Are there any other similar courses in country? Thanks.

nuig offer an LLB. Varies from 5 years to 1 year, depending on your previous education. Quite a good postgrad course from what I hear, with a big turnover of students who opt to do it having completed Corporate law, arts (legal science), commerce and public and social policy degrees within the nuig.

Sangre

hada wrote:

am a BCL in NUIG. Having had enough points to do any law degree in the country, I simply cannot agree with what some posts have said that trinity/ucd students will (ahem) naturally be seen as having graduated with a degree superior to that of ucc, ul, queens, nuig etc..

Eh...what are you talking about? Nobody suggested anything of the sort.

maidhc

Sangre wrote:

Eh...what are you talking about? Nobody suggested anything of the sort.

They did a bit.

e.g.

focusing wrote:

The best staff are in Trinity and UCD.

Sangre

Heh...went and re-read the whole thread and I missed that!
Well, some colleges are invariably going to be better than others. No harm in pointing out a superior degree in your opinion.

hada

Sangre wrote:

Heh...went and re-read the whole thread and I missed that!
Well, some colleges are invariably going to be better than others. No harm in pointing out a superior degree in your opinion.

and these "superior" law degrees will make better solicitors/barristers how exactly?

maidhc

hada wrote:

and these "superior" law degrees will make better solicitors/barristers how exactly?

They don't (to answer your rhetorical question...).

It matters a bit though if you are going down the academic route I suspect. A masters or PhD from Osgoode, Oxford, or Harvard will always be looked upon higher than something from UL, or trinity for that matter.

hada

maidhc wrote:

They don't (to answer your rhetorical question...).

It matters a bit though if you are going down the academic route I suspect. A masters or PhD from Osgoode, Oxford, or Harvard will always be looked upon higher than something from UL, or trinity for that matter.

Exactly.

I will agree somewhat with your point about a masters or phd from a law school such as oxford, yale, etc etc. but to the best of my knowledge, Trinity is the only place that offers the general LLM in ireland, and the same with NUIG and it's LLM public law/human rights, and UCC's criminal law postgrads respectively. So in fact it's quite hard to compare Irish law school's postgraduate degrees, since there is very little overlapping. Have been looking into the LLM in tcd myself a bit, considering doing it after I graduate (mainly because I'm considering going into the general academic route)

On a side note, I really don't think (most of my friends currently in Blackhall/King's Inns will agree also) that the majority of people couldn't care less about what undergraduate law degrees people have done, it's really only in the above named institutions that law students make their name.

maidhc

hada wrote:

Exactly.
Trinity is the only place that offers the general LLM in ireland, and the same with NUIG and it's LLM public law/human rights, and UCC's criminal law postgrads respectively.

Nope, UCC definately offers one. I did a research one there, but I could also have done a taught one.

hada

maidhc wrote:

Nope, UCC definately offers one. I did a research one there, but I could also have done a taught one.

oh really? Didn't know that!.. Will look into that right away. How did you find it?

boarderfox

hullaballoo wrote:

He's just over 30. No idea how many books he's written.

Slightly (well, quite a bitt) off the point... Is he good looking?

hada

boarderfox wrote:

Slightly (well, quite a bitt) off the point... Is he good looking?

ahem :rolleyes:

Lplated

Interesting post. FYI Cole, I did law as a mature student in UCC. My leaving cert points wouldn't have got me into a repeat leaving cert course let alone a third level institution so I went back when I was 23.

It is noticeable, both in academic circles and while practising law, that trinity grads have a marvellous opinion of themselves and the noble institution through which they trotted.

In the real world however, as a barrister for eg, you will rarely be instructed by a solicitor merely on the calling card that 'I was of trinners'. I would take a reasonable (but not provable) guess that even trinity solicitors shy away from those type of barristers, mainly because their arrogance and attitiude doesn't go down well with judges, clients or colleagues.

Other things to note about said veritable institution, is that its qualifications are worth less relative to other NUI colleges. This is because, per head, trinity gives out more 1.1s and 2.1s. Thus at least a % of trinity 1.1s would be the equivalent of a UCD 2.1 etc...

As you are planning on practising law, then a 'real' grasp of it will be of more benefit to you than the more obtuse academic approach that can sometimes be found. Certainly this seems to be the experience of my peers at Kings Inns and Blackhall.

Best of luck Cole.

dermot_sheehan

Lplated wrote:

Other things to note about said veritable institution, is that its qualifications are worth less relative to other NUI colleges. This is because, per head, trinity gives out more 1.1s and 2.1s. Thus at least a % of trinity 1.1s would be the equivalent of a UCD 2.1 etc...

.

Just want to take you up on this point, regardless at how snobby trinners grads are in comparison to Ross O'Carroll-Kelly UCD D4 types. I was actually on the Law school committee in TCD for two years, and the externs reports (drafted by such people as John Mee from UCC) actually said that markers were marking too hard. If a greater % of firsts are awarded (and I don't concede that that does happen, I don't know the figures), it could possibly be because a greater proportion of exams scripts and course work worthy of a first class degree were submitted.

Sangre

From my general experience there averages about 4/5 firsts a year in UCD (out of 130ish)

Amazotheamazing

From my own experiences in Galway, none of us took either Trinity or UCD courses too seriously, course I was Corporate Law, so we didn't take any other course too seriously.

Every student thinks their course is the best one, unless they are doing Corporate Law, they are wrong.


(Just kidding but you get my point).

Lplated

gabhain7 wrote:

Just want to take you up on this point, regardless at how snobby trinners grads are in comparison to Ross O'Carroll-Kelly UCD D4 types. I was actually on the Law school committee in TCD for two years, and the externs reports (drafted by such people as John Mee from UCC) actually said that markers were marking too hard. If a greater % of firsts are awarded (and I don't concede that that does happen, I don't know the figures), it could possibly be because a greater proportion of exams scripts and course work worthy of a first class degree were submitted.

AFAIK there was a study done in 2002 for the ten year period up to 2000 (or 2001). Average 1.1s in Trinity was double that of the next highest college (on the basis of % of students sitting finals). This may of course reflect the more worthy contributions of the students or may indicate that a four year course produces higher standards or may reflect the fact the 'marking on a curve' system has a more upward trajectory in some parts of the country than in others.

The real reason I do not know. What I do know from people involved in recruiting with the bigger solicitors firms (yes, more than one) is that they take this discrepancy into account when assessing the intellectual abilities of those who apply.

In a sense average results per college are a non issue, just as the stature of ones lecturers is. In the end of the day you'll have to study the stuff yourself, do your own research, and of course sit your own exams.

As a betting man however, give me one trinity student and one ucd student and without knowing any more I'll give you odds on who is likely to get the higher marks in her finals!

Font22

careful

besty

This thread has run it's course.