Law Degrees

Cole

I'm currently in the selection process for a number of universities/private colleges for their law degree programs, as a mature student.

Can I get opinions on the law degrees at the various institutions? I have not attended any of the universities before, so my perception is only based on what I've heard or read, some of it on these boards.

Is there a kind of league table of law degrees within the legal profession?
If I get the option of being able to choose between a couple of CAO offers at different places, I would like as much info as to where is best.

Any feedback appreciated..thanks.

hullaballoo

Obviously, Trinity has the most widely-recognised law degree course. It may not actually be the best, but Trinity is world-reknowned, so there's an advantage inherent to that. UCD offers a good law degree, as does UCC and NUIG. You're better off not going to the likes of Portobello or Griffith to do a primary degree, they don't have the same credentials.

Cole

Thanks hullaballo..that is more or less the perception I had regarding the different institutions.
I'm inclined to avoid the private colleges (academic and financial reasons)..can't help feeling that the degree is a slightly lesser one that from a university.

Can I take it that there is little or no real difference between the Trinity, UCD, UCC and NUIG law degrees..I have very little knowledge of the Cork and Galway universities as acamdemic institutions.

hullaballoo

The only differences between those institutions are of prestige rather than academy. It's really up to you which one you pick. If I was picking a straight law degree, I'd go for Trinity as they do four years, and a four year degree probably looks better.

maidhc

hullaballoo wrote:

If I was picking a straight law degree, I'd go for Trinity as they do four years, and a four year degree probably looks better.

But it is an extra in year in which you could get an LLM from UCD or UCC.

Degrees from private insitiutions tend to get ridiculed a little by some, and certainly are not as valuable as one from an NUI college. Certainly the standard of lecturer the likes of Griffith has is well below what you will find in a proper university.

dermot_sheehan

maidhc wrote:

But it is an extra in year in which you could get an LLM from UCD or UCC.

But you can do extra subjects then and cover more areas which is appealing when applying for training contracts. Also trinity recognises our extra year by giving us all M.A.'s 3 years after we graduate.

EdgarAllenPoo

I went to Portobello, don't go. It's horribly disorganised and unprofessional. GCD I don't know about but from talking to some friends there, if you do go for the private option that would be the one to go for.

kelloggs

what about Business & Legal in UCD? 4 years, basically gives you a law degree and a commerce degree with option to specialise in your last year. i did it and its done me no harm! currently doing a masters in trinity and while i prefer the lecturers in here, i preferred the UCD facilities a lot more. which is always an important factor.

Thirdfox

UCD,D have their Paul Anthony McDermott (writer of many leading law books in Ireland - Contracts)
Trinity have Gerry Whyte and Gerard Hogan - writers of the leading Constitutional text in Ireland, William Binchy - co-writer of the leading Tort text here. We also have some other very well known legal academics teaching here (as do UCD,D I'm sure).

Don't know who teaches at Cork or Galway...

EdgarAllenPoo

I think David Gwynn Morgan lectures in UCC, or at least used to, I'm not sure.

Thirdfox

Read his book on the separation of powers, angry man!

Maybe we should have a law book discussion thread (what's the most useful book you've read etc.)

Hullabaloo?

EdgarAllenPoo

Not a bad idea, I would say the Constitutional Law Nutshell by Fergus Ryan. Quite readable and uncomplicated.

maidhc

GDM wrote:

I think David Gwynn Morgan lectures in UCC, or at least used to, I'm not sure.

He does still.
http://www.ucc.ie/en/lawsite/staff/

hullaballoo

Thirdfox wrote:

Read his book on the separation of powers, angry man!

Maybe we should have a law book discussion thread (what's the most useful book you've read etc.)

Hullabaloo?

You start it and if it takes off, we'll sticky it.

Sangre

kelloggs wrote:

what about Business & Legal in UCD? 4 years, basically gives you a law degree and a commerce degree with option to specialise in your last year. i did it and its done me no harm! currently doing a masters in trinity and while i prefer the lecturers in here, i preferred the UCD facilities a lot more. which is always an important factor.

Most of the BBLS lecturers aren't the same for BCL.

I've just got my BCL and took the UCD route over Trinity. I've now applied to do my LLM in Trinity so as to broaden my scope.
While Trinity offers a 4 year degree they actually do less hours per week so I'm not sure if there is much more covered.
Prestigue wise there is actually no difference between UCD and Trinty (the chief justice or AG have never gone to Trinity ). Both have to be assesed on their different merits and what you want.

UCD has an excellent international/erasumus programme with loads of places on offer. The new modularisation/horizons programs has done some great things for the degree including more current assessment and more subjects offered. There are also new choices like Law and Polticis etc..

Thirdfox

We have 11 hours a week (including seminar work) - supposed to spend 30 in the library (few, if any, do).

What are your hours like?

From a not-unbiased viewpoint I would have thought that Trinity has greater prestige (especially in the US where people might say it in the same breath as Cambridge or Oxford?) Indeed you can choose to get an Oxford degree instead of an University of Dublin degree at the end of your studies in Trinity... might be branded a traitor though

Sangre

Actually thats true, internationally any Trinity degree will have a much higher prestige. Good thing law degrees don't travel well.

The first years have a very different degree to what we had but its a few more than 11 hours with 6 subjects a week (5 law and one legal writing). Had an ex who was in 1st year Trinity when I was 1st Ucd so I managed to get both sides of the coin mostly. She only did 4 subjects excluding tutorials etc., That still the same?

EdgarAllenPoo

Sangre wrote:

Most of the BBLS lecturers aren't the same for BCL.

I've just got my BCL and took the UCD route over Trinity. I've now applied to do my LLM in Trinity so as to broaden my scope.
While Trinity offers a 4 year degree they actually do less hours per week so I'm not sure if there is much more covered.
Prestigue wise there is actually no difference between UCD and Trinty (the chief justice or AG have never gone to Trinity ). Both have to be assesed on their different merits and what you want.

UCD has an excellent international/erasumus programme with loads of places on offer. The new modularisation/horizons programs has done some great things for the degree including more current assessment and more subjects offered. There are also new choices like Law and Polticis etc..

Did you know that Trinity ranks 60th place out of 200( it may be 100 I can't rmember) on a list of well respected colleges and universiteis in the world. I've said it and I know people in Trinity that have said it, the only people that think Trinity is the be all and end all are the students and lecturers who go there.

Where I went(although I wouldn't really rate it) we had 12 hours of lectures(three per subject) and four hours of tutorials, we told to spend at least twenty hours in the library/Studying but it(the library) was a joke.

focusing

There's absolutely no point wasting an extra year doing a four-year law degree, especially as a mature student. Amazingly, Trinity cover the same number of subjects and do the same number of contact hours in four years as the UCD BCL do in 3.

And a Masters you get for filling in a form and sending a cheque won't have much value in the job market, it could even make you look like a chancer.

If you're going to spend a fourth year, think of doing a masters or a four-year joint degree. For instance, in UCD BBLS, Law with Politics / History / Philosophy, BCL/Maîtrise/French Law, in Trinity Law with French or German, or the BA in NUI Galway. There's a general LLM in Trinity, a Commercial and an EU LLM in UCD, Criminal Justice in UCC looks good, Human Rights Law in NUI,G, Research Masters almost everywhere, etc.

The best staff are in Trinity and UCD.

If you want to qualify as a lawyer you'd probably be faster doing the one year diploma in DIT or the two year part-time diploma in King's Inns.

Thirdfox

Sangre: yep, it's still four subjects a year (Tort, Constitution, Criminal and Legal writing for 1st year).

kelloggs

Sangre wrote:

Most of the BBLS lecturers aren't the same for BCL.

So? do law get the better lecturers while B&L are made do with make weights?

dermot_sheehan

GDM wrote:

Did you know that Trinity ranks 60th place out of 200( it may be 100 I can't rmember) on a list of well respected colleges and universiteis in the world. I've said it and I know people in Trinity that have said it, the only people that think Trinity is the be all and end all are the students and lecturers who go there.

Where I went(although I wouldn't really rate it) we had 12 hours of lectures(three per subject) and four hours of tutorials, we told to spend at least twenty hours in the library/Studying but it(the library) was a joke.

I assume you mean the Shanghai rankings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_Ranking_of_World_Universities

Which with it's heavy emphasis towards science (universities are given points for number of nobel laureates that went there and field medal winners), it disadvantages universities such as TCD with a large Humanities faculty. For example places like ucsd (13) and uni pennslyvania (15)are ranked very highly, whilst places like the London School of Economics get a very low ranking (203-300, same as TCD incidently). For those who care, UCC and UCD both got 401-500.
Using these rankings, especially for deciding which law course best seems misguided.


Law is mostly a self learned subject, the lecture tells you the basic details of concepts and principles in a lecture. You go into further detail in seminars, however most of your learning will be done in the library in the runup to exams.

besty

kelloggs wrote:

Sangre wrote:

Most of the BBLS lecturers aren't the same for BCL.

So? do law get the better lecturers while B&L are made do with make weights?

No. There are better and weaker lecturers in both courses IMO and from anecdotal accounts I've heard from friends in BCL. For example, the McDermott brothers are widely regarded as top notch lecturers. James takes contract in 1st year BCL. BBLS have a different lecturer. Conversely, BBLS have Paul Anthony Mc Dermott for tort in first year and criminal in second. BCL, again, have different lecturers.

Some are the same, e.g. Andrew Lyall for land law.

EdgarAllenPoo

Did Paul Anthony McDermott start writing textbooks when hee was twelve? How old is he and how many books has he written?

hullaballoo

He's just over 30. No idea how many books he's written.

focusing

Off the top of my head:

Prison Law, Res Judicatta (Double Jepordy), Contract Law and Criminal Law

All of which are absolutely top notch.

Am I forgetting some more?

kelloggs

PMcD is such a legend its unreal, you would be forgiven for thinking he may be working on a 37 hour day or something though!

Cole

Thanks for all the feedback to my initial questions regarding the different law schools.

I have applied to every law school in the country ( I think!) Already found out that my Trinity and UCD applications were unsuccessful.

Thinking positively..I might have offers from UCC, NUIG and the private colleges..inclined to avoid the private places if possible.

Any further opinions on the above mentioned? Anyone with particular knowledge/experience of either?

Thanks again.

Sangre

Why do you want to do the degree? To study law or become a lawyer? If its the latter you have a much wider range of choices.

Also have you applied to Queens?

Cole

I would like to be a lawyer, but want to study for a full law degree first.
I am not a graduate, so this is also an opportunity to further my education.

Didn't think of applying to Queens to be honest.

focusing

You may as well take advantage of free fees then.

UCC & NUI,G both have great social scenes btw.