Cash hand at 3/6

Ollieboy

In the cut-off position, I have KK, its fold to the player on my right and he puts in a minimum raise to 12, table is 9 seater 3/6. I decide to flat call and try to take him on the flop, the button raise to 57 and the SB calls, than the BB goes all-in for about 450. First raiser folds, action to me. I’m about 750 and have all the other players covered. The SB has about 400 also.

Dont have any reads on the players as they all join the table in the last few hands.

What do I do?

ianmc38

Call

Ollieboy

call with 2 more players to act after me, could one of these players not have AA? This could be a 4 way all-in pot for nearly 2k

ianmc38

They could have AA and equally have AK, QQ, JJ.

BB cant really be pushing for his entire stack with AA preflop.
Button looks like a regular button raise.

SB could have anything.

Ollieboy

ianmc38 wrote:

They could have AA and equally have AK, QQ, JJ.

BB cant really be pushing for his entire stack with AA preflop.
Button looks like a regular button raise.

SB could have anything.

The cut-off is putting in a big re-raise for a standard button steal with 2 players already acting before him, the call by the SB, indicate's AK/AQ the all in would need to be very confident, so he has to have a big hand, AA/KK and as I have KK, he must have AA. He wouldn't go all in with so much action preflop with QQ.

Culchie

In they go Ollie, it's sweaty bum time.

ROONEY_DIVES

Even supposing nobody has AA and you're ahead, you're still likely to be up against 2-3 hands...and if supposing nobody has AA, its possible the other KK is out. Whichever way you look at it, you cant be anything more than marginal fav preflop at the very best, plus you're in for 12.....there's never an easy spot to let KK go pre, but this seems to be at least a makeable pass. Ps. you played very well yesterday

ianmc38

Ollieboy wrote:

He wouldn't go all in with so much action preflop with QQ.

How can u say that after saying

Ollieboy wrote:

Dont have any reads on the players as they all join the table in the last few hands

Ollieboy

ianmc38 wrote:

How can u say that after saying

agreed, but I just cant see a player going all in with so much action preflop, I would want more information before committing my stack like that, if I had QQ, I might flat call and than push. He could get called by a bigger hand or AK etc.

Culchie

ROONEY_DIVES wrote:

Even supposing nobody has AA and you're ahead, you're still likely to be up against 2-3 hands...and if supposing nobody has AA, its possible the other KK is out. Whichever way you look at it, you cant be anything more than marginal fav preflop at the very best, plus you're in for 12.....there's never an easy spot to let KK go pre, but this seems to be at least a makeable pass. Ps. you played very well yesterday

Whilst that logic is undisputable.... all that action suggest theres quite a few Aces and Kings about the premises, and Ollie has two of them in his paw.

I'm playing ball with this one.

Hectorjelly

ROONEY_DIVES wrote:

Even supposing nobody has AA and you're ahead, you're still likely to be up against 2-3 hands...and if supposing nobody has AA, its possible the other KK is out. Whichever way you look at it, you cant be anything more than marginal fav preflop at the very best, plus you're in for 12.....there's never an easy spot to let KK go pre, but this seems to be at least a makeable pass. Ps. you played very well yesterday

this is totally wrong. Your equity does not decrease in a linear fashion, in fact you want as many players as possible to call with hands like Axo and pairs, because they all interfere with each other. If your not against AA then your equity is going to be around 45% against 3 opponents. Thats huge, and not a "marginal fav preflop".

Hectorjelly

It comes down to what range you put the SB on. You play the 9 seater 36 game a lot ollie, so if you think that he is basically only pushing AA or KK (and for some players that would be true) then you can fold. In my experience a random unknown could well be pushing AK, QQ JJ so I call instantly - but I play 6seaters mostly.

If you had of reraised 1st off you would have an extra layer of information.

edit to note, the pairs dont interfere with each other but they are drawing really slim already!

ROONEY_DIVES

Yo listen no disrespect intended but i actually couldnt care less what u say in any of your posts, obnoxious, condescending, know-it-all are words that immediately spring to mind....in every post ive read of yours. anyhow im sticking by what i said if there's a spot where u can fold KK its when u have 12 in the middle v 3 hands and its 438 to u. I never said he should fold. i said its makeable.

Hectorjelly

ROONEY_DIVES wrote:

Yo listen no disrespect intended but i actually couldnt care less what u say in any of your posts, obnoxious, condescending, know-it-all are words that immediately spring to mind....in every post ive read of yours. anyhow im sticking by what i said if there's a spot where u can fold KK its when u have 12 in the middle v 3 hands and its 438 to u. I never said he should fold. i said its makeable.

yo brotha no disrespect taken - I am all of those things but I also happen to be right. Its important to be nice but its much much more important to be right. And I was pointing out the error in your logic that would make you fold rather than the fold itself.

ianmc38

Ollieboy

Hectorjelly wrote:

this is totally wrong. Your equity does not decrease in a linear fashion, in fact you want as many players as possible to call with hands like Axo and pairs, because they all interfere with each other. If your not against AA then your equity is going to be around 45% against 3 opponents. Thats huge, and not a "marginal fav preflop".

agreed, if I call and I'm ahead, I've a great chance of taken the pot as the aces will work against each other, so if I cant put him on AA I should call.

I got into a raising war during the week with a player and he AA against my KK, I called the all-in even do I was 80% sure he had the AA's. This was a poor call and I should have got away from the hand. So I'm trying to learn that process when to laydown a big hand preflop, something I'm not very good at.

In this case I'm confident that this player as AA not QQ, as I would not commit my stack in this manner, without AA or KK, with all the action preflop.

I was also regretting the fact I didn't reraise earlier, but this was the first really strong action on the table and I was trying to keep a customer in the flat call preflop.

Hectorjelly

Ollieboy wrote:

In this case I'm confident that this player as AA not QQ, as I would not commit my stack in this manner, without AA or KK, with all the action preflop.

Remember the player in the BB is almost certainly not as good as you are - plenty of my opponents would never fold QQ!

Im guessing everyone folded and we dont get to see what hand he had?

Ollieboy

Anyway, I fold, I was 80% sure and I felt I was only losing 12$ in this pot, so it was a makeable pass for me. Trust me, this was a first for me and I dont know if I'll ever do it again. The SB player called with 67 suit for about 150 and the BB had......




QQ.......


I nearly broke the laptop in my rage......lol

thanks for the comments.

ROONEY_DIVES

My logic, my game and my thought processes are fine, thx anyway. What i said was if there's ever a situation where its a makeable pass this is it for me, and i didnt even advocate a fold. Just said its makeable. You're looking at min raise, call, reraise 5x, cold call, All-In and its back around how can u be confident that either the reraiser/cold-caller of that reraise/bb doesnt have AA. This is why i dont post on boards anywhere, and i read them all , pocketfives, here, liquidpoker, 2+2 i read em all. I dont post because if you have a view that is dichotomately different to the standard poker theory then you're just flat WRONG. Even if you have read and understand the theory, and disagree or offer a different viewpoint you get people such as yourself quick to point out you're just flat wrong.

Ollieboy

Hectorjelly wrote:

plenty of my opponents would never fold QQ!

Yeh, its a real wake up call at some of the bad play at this level.

ianmc38

ROONEY_DIVES wrote:

My logic, my game and my thought processes are fine, thx anyway. What i said was if there's ever a situation where its a makeable pass this is it for me, and i didnt even advocate a fold. Just said its makeable. You're looking at min raise, call, reraise 5x, cold call, All-In and its back around how can u be confident that either the reraiser/cold-caller of that reraise/bb doesnt have AA. This is why i dont post on boards anywhere, and i read them all , pocketfives, here, liquidpoker, 2+2 i read em all. I dont post because if you have a view that is dichotomately different to the standard poker theory then you're just flat WRONG. Even if you have read and understand the theory, and disagree or offer a different viewpoint you get people such as yourself quick to point out you're just flat wrong.

Jesus man get a grip, everyone here is open to other peoples views. We've all become better players from reading posters like HJs cash game advice and hand analyses as well as the various discussions on ways to play differen hands.

HJ is undoubtedly one of the best and most learned cash game players on boards and I'm sure he too is open to discussion on different lines that can be taken in hands.

You should post more, as all the advice and comments given on the forum are all helpful and aid in the devlopment of everyones games.

Just my 2c

ianmc38

Ollieboy wrote:

Anyway, I fold, I was 80% sure and I felt I was only losing 12$ in this pot, so it was a makeable pass for me. Trust me, this was a first for me and I dont know if I'll ever do it again. The SB player called with 67 suit for about 150 and the BB had......




QQ.......


.

That's not surprising.

Ollieboy wrote:

I nearly broke the laptop in my rage......lol

Nor is that

Ollieboy

ianmc38 wrote:

That's not surprising.



Nor is that

To be honest, I was happy with the laydown, as it proved I can laydown a big hand when required, but I was getting good odds to call if they didnt have AA and it was worth the gamble to call. I just gave the other player to much respect I suppose. Still cant believe I laydown KK, usually I would love that type of action, must be getting old.....lol

Ste05

I have to say I'd be pushing here most of the time against unknown opponents.
Here's my thought process:

A crappy little min-raise (donkey), presumably in mid to late position???

A call by us, which I REALLY don't like,

Ollieboy wrote:

I decide to flat call and try to take him, the button, the SB and the BB on the flop, or hope the button raises

but anyway, it's done now and it looks like some kind or hand with potential, i.e. small pair, suited A, SC's looking to play a cheap pot

Then a button squeeze raise (sensing weakness),

SB Call (hmmmm - dangerous call, surely expects someone to re-raise pre-flop and also having to play a huge pot OOP) this could be a donkey call, but then again a good player could have AA, expecting a re-raise.

Followed by a BB push, he could certainly raise here with AA, but similarly he could do it with more hands than just that, depending again on what sort of player he was, but against an unknown I'd push/call.

So it would come back around to us. The only players to worry about are the SB and BB and as I say against an unknown BB and SB I think I'd call/push, because these could be serious donkey plays.

P.S. Ollie, was there a plan for calling here, bar trying to take the min-raiser on on the flop. i.e. was the button, BB or SB particularly LAGGY, were you expecting one of them to re-raise? or were they particularly tight and you expected them all to fold to the min-raise and call?? They're all getting fairly savage odds to play any kind of hands?? Surely the BB is calling with any 2, he's getting at least 5.5:1.


EDIT: Didn't see the discussion after ROONEY_DIVES, (Jaysus that took a half hour to type ) but I'd agree with you Ollie that this was certainly foldable, but only with evidence of Good play.

Culchie

Ollieboy wrote:

To be honest, I was happy with the laydown, as it proved I can laydown a big hand when required, but I was getting good odds to call if they didnt have AA and it was worth the gamble to call. I just gave the other player to much respect I suppose. Still cant believe I laydown KK, usually I would love that type of action, must be getting old.....lol

Hi Ollie,

The hand didn't just *cost* $12 .... It actually was $2K passed up.

Whatever about the specific hand, (as it's not terribly important, it's over).... but it's important to align your thinking.

I think if this was a 'live' game and you had time to weigh up the action, you'd make this call.

It's not a question of being *good enough* to lay the hand down (you are), it's a question of is it the right call.

Lafortezza

Would your KK have held up against the 67s and QQ? This is easily the answer to whether you should have called or not.

Ollieboy

Ste05 wrote:

I have to say I'd be pushing here most of the time against unknown opponents.
Here's my thought process:

A crappy little min-raise (donkey), presumably in mid to late position???

A call by us, which I REALLY don't like,
but anyway, it's done now and it looks like some kind or hand with potential, i.e. small pair, suited A, SC's looking to play a cheap pot

Then a button squeeze raise (sensing weakness),

SB Call (hmmmm - dangerous call, surely expects someone to re-raise pre-flop and also having to play a huge pot OOP) this could be a donkey call, but then again a good player could have AA, expecting a re-raise.

Followed by a BB push, he could certainly raise here with AA, but similarly he could do it with more hands than just that, depending again on what sort of player he was, but against an unknown I'd push/call.

So it would come back around to us. The only players to worry about are the SB and BB and as I say against an unknown BB and SB I think I'd call/push, because these could be serious donkey plays.

P.S. Ollie, was there a plan for calling here, bar trying to take the min-raiser on on the flop. i.e. was the button, BB or SB particularly LAGGY, were you expecting one of them to re-raise? or were they particularly tight and you expected them all to fold to the min-raise and call?? They're all getting fairly savage odds to play any kind of hands?? Surely the BB is calling with any 2, he's getting at least 5.5:1.


EDIT: Didn't see the discussion after ROONEY_DIVES, (Jaysus that took a half hour to type ) but I'd agree with you Ollie that this was certainly foldable, but only with evidence of Good play.

Most people were folding, so I expect maybe the BB to flat call and try to get action on the flop by someone hitting a single pair or bluffing. Not really a great idea, but I'm trying not to overplay these hands and get no action at all. I had intention to re-raise the first player, but for some strange reason I just flat called, which is a play I hate. I was been sloppy and trying to create action. I agree that was bad play and a re-raise would have made it easier for me to call the all-in. Just thought it was an interesting hand, as I played it badly, but couldn't believe the action after me, so I was sure there was AA there somewhere, but in hindsight, donkey plays by me and everyone else in the pot. God knows what the other players had.

FastMachine

This is a tough one against unknown opponents. Against unknowns I'd probably call but folding isn't really a mistake - AA is highly likely here so don't beat yourself up about it. If I knew the villain and he was decent I'd most likely fold with this kind of action.

Ollieboy

Culchie wrote:

Hi Ollie,

The hand didn't just *cost* $12 .... It actually was $2K passed up.

Whatever about the specific hand, (as it's not terribly important, it's over).... but it's important to align your thinking.

I think if this was a 'live' game and you had time to weigh up the action, you'd make this call.

It's not a question of being *good enough* to lay the hand down (you are), it's a question of is it the right call.

I think in a live game I would have made the same decision, the lack of information on the players and the amount of action, just lead me to believe I was behind. You also expect better play at 3/6 preflop.

I remember David O'Callaghan saying when you have no information and in doubt, lay it down and this is good advice, just wish I heard it after this hand.lol

My hand would have held up lafortezza.

Ste05

Ollieboy wrote:

but I'm trying not to overplay these hands and get no action at all...... Just thought it was an interesting hand, as I played it badly,

Certainly is an interesting hand, I spent a bloody half hour thinking about it. So thank you for that. (P.S. that wasn't sarcasm, helps my game thinking about these kind of situations)

These kind of hands are OK to play slowly Pre-flop if it's folded to you, (the very odd time, against regular opponents) because you don't know if anyone has a hand they like, but with even a limper before you, (never mind a raiser), you know at least someone is happy with their hand and so it's hard to overplay these hands pre-flop, unless you're massively overbetting :eek:, just make a standard re-raise here, it's ABC poker, but there are some hands that just play themselves, so just let them do their groovy thing... :cool:

Hectorjelly

ROONEY_DIVES wrote:

My logic, my game and my thought processes are fine, thx anyway. What i said was if there's ever a situation where its a makeable pass this is it for me, and i didnt even advocate a fold. Just said its makeable. You're looking at min raise, call, reraise 5x, cold call, All-In and its back around how can u be confident that either the reraiser/cold-caller of that reraise/bb doesnt have AA. This is why i dont post on boards anywhere, and i read them all , pocketfives, here, liquidpoker, 2+2 i read em all. I dont post because if you have a view that is dichotomately different to the standard poker theory then you're just flat WRONG. Even if you have read and understand the theory, and disagree or offer a different viewpoint you get people such as yourself quick to point out you're just flat wrong.

What you said was FACTUALLY incorrect. The logic you used was incorrect. Even know you seem to be confused as to what your arguing about, I never claimed it wasnt a "makeable" fold.

The point on which you were wrong is based on different hands preflop equity against each other, and its not one on which its possinle to have a different viewpoint. You may think that AA is 50 50 against KK but its not, and if you are going to suggest that, then you are going to have to accept a certain amount of critistm.

ROONEY_DIVES

Im afraid im gonna have to refer you to my previous statement but possibly you missed it, ill try again:

I (Used to refer to oneself)
COULD (Used to indicate probability or possibility under the specified circumstances*)
NOT (Used to express negation, denial, refusal, or prohibition)
CARE (To be concerned or interested)
LESS** (Something not as important as something else)
WHAT*** (How much; in what respect; how)
YOU (Used to refer to the one or ones being addressed)
THINK (To have or formulate in the mind/To decide by reasoning, reflection, or pondering)

*Past tense of can
** Comparative of Little
***adverb

ROONEY_DIVES

By the way im sure your maths and stats are awesome but your spelling is atrocious. I don't get easily irritated either, in May i lost on 3 FT's in a row with AA preflop, each mtt worth 7k 1st a) v BodogAri A9 soooooted b) v KJo on JJ2 flop and c) v AQo on a J 10 9 flop. All 3 preflop and i didn't get irritated. I'll never be able to agree with you on anything it must be a natural talent you have, in fact if we're standing in front of an elephant and you swear blind it's an elephant i think i might disagree on principle.

ocallagh

ROONEY_DIVES wrote:

in fact if we're standing in front of an elephant and you swear blind it's an elephant i think i might disagree on principle.

If HJ was blind I could understand if he got it wrong.

ianmc38

ROONEY_DIVES wrote:

Im afraid im gonna have to refer you to my previous statement but possibly you missed it, ill try again:

I (Used to refer to oneself)
COULD (Used to indicate probability or possibility under the specified circumstances*)
NOT (Used to express negation, denial, refusal, or prohibition)
CARE (To be concerned or interested)
LESS** (Something not as important as something else)
WHAT*** (How much; in what respect; how)
YOU (Used to refer to the one or ones being addressed)
THINK (To have or formulate in the mind/To decide by reasoning, reflection, or pondering)

*Past tense of can
** Comparative of Little
***adverb

You must be Rooneys junior by a few years then?

fuzzbox

Ollie:
FWIW, I would strongly consider laying down KK here too.

Hitman Actual

ROONEY_DIVES wrote:

By the way im sure your maths and stats are awesome but your spelling is atrocious.

LOL, not sure what that has to do with anything. Lucky HJ just needs the maths and stats part to be a good player so!

You really should post here more often. I see that you're captain of the PS Irish team, so you obviously have something to contribute. Or do you not post on forums because you cant accept criticism of your posts?

califano

ROONEY_DIVES wrote:

dichotomately

Dont you mean 'dichotomously'?. Its just that i looked 'dichotomately' up in the dictionary and it wasnt found but it prompted 'dichotomously'. instead.

mewso

ROONEY_DIVES wrote:

what u say in any of your posts, obnoxious, condescending, know-it-all are words that immediately spring to mind....in every post ive read of yours.

Whereas you use personal abuse. If you can't discuss things without getting personal then don't. Next time you make personal attacks you get a ban. I should ban you right now but HJ is taking it well so I will too for now.

TacT

I like the fold given the action, just think what you'd be saying to yourself if he turned over AA

ROONEY_DIVES

Personal abuse? Ban me? He's taking it well? That's a joke right? I thought this was a forum not the HJ cheerleading section. I've nothing personal against the guy, how could i, don't even know who he is. I do have a problem with someone who tells me emphatically in CAPS that my logic in making a pass, fold or raise is wrong.

ntlbell

*shakes him pom poms*

"gimmie a h H! gimmie an e E!!"

5starpool

I like football.

Ollieboy

Just getting back to the hand, if the BB had flat called the re-raise, I would have push all-in and try to take the pot down without a flop, would we all agree with that play?

RoundTower

Ollieboy wrote:

Just getting back to the hand, if the BB had flat called the re-raise, I would have push all-in and try to take the pot down without a flop, would we all agree with that play?

I would push all in (maybe just make it 200) and hope to get called in two places and have the best hand and have it hold up. Why would you want to win the pot straight away?

Shortstack

IanMC38 I have just posted this on your blog.

I think that you might have a case of mistaken identity. I haven't been to the SE since Easter.

Joe 'mistaken for a fish' Beevers
PS I have several reliable alibis that I was donating at City West.

I am using Mike's account to post.

The Ace Face

rounders123 wrote:

Dont you mean 'dichotomously'?. Its just that i looked 'dichotomately' up in the dictionary and it wasnt found but it prompted 'dichotomously'. instead.

lmao:D

Rooney your entitled to your view but please stop acting like a little girl who
dropped her ice cream! HJ is stating facts and I find your attitude way off line....

Unlucky Ollie...I would have called but then again I'm a fish!

Ray

Ollieboy

RoundTower wrote:

I would push all in (maybe just make it 200) and hope to get called in two places and have the best hand and have it hold up. Why would you want to win the pot straight away?

I would be happy to take the 200 already in the pot at this stage and at worst be heads up with one player who would have a weaker hand, thats all I mean.

ROONEY_DIVES

Don't worry i looked up that word for spelling before i used it and found the other variations weren't to my liking so i used artistic license I'm thru (more artistic license) with this thread tho (and again) and this forum seems overpopulated with that new quasi-religion i saw on CNN Special Report, some weird cult-type group called Jellymania.... they worship sample sizes n Data Mining n weird **** like that. It takes all sorts i s'pose (and again).

mewso

This forum is getting more and more filled with kids who just say things like "I've had it with this thread" when they don't like the response they get. Grow up.

ROONEY_DIVES

You should ban yourself for the above personal abuse. It's either say 'im done with this' or argue with HJ n his maths cronies in this nepotistic site. It's actually a joke. All forums have cliques. this is 1 of the most irritating i've ever come across.