Incapacitate Attackers?

kirving

Today I came extremely close to beeing attacked, I had no chance to run either. My friend and I were outnumbered 5-1. Luckily we were picked up before we were attacked. I was wondering, what is the best way(if there is one) to incapacitate attackers, not really injuring them.

I have heard that, hitting the attacker in the front of the neck, with the area of your hand between your thumb and forefinger is effective. But I suspect this could be very dangerous. Anyone have any other tips?

damo

Do some research on Brazilian jiu jitsu and submission grappling.

Colm_OReilly

Call over to Scoil Carmel, Firhouse Road tomorrow night at 7.30 and I'll be happy to give you some practical self defence tips.

Colm O'Reilly

Maybe it's just me, but if I was surrounded by a group of 5 people on the verge of attacking me, I wouldn't be too worried about injuring them.

pma-ire

Kevin Irving wrote:

Today I came extremely close to beeing attacked, I had no chance to run either. My friend and I were outnumbered 5-1.

Hmmm! So at that ratio you two were actually in threat from 10 people!!

Kevin Irving wrote:

Luckily we were picked up before we were attacked.

By who??

Kevin Irving wrote:

I was wondering, what is the best way(if there is one) to incapacitate attackers, not really injuring them.

If you are in a fight a likely side effect is that you and or them will get hurt!! It's amazing how many people come to MA classes to learn how fight people without hurting them????

Kevin Irving wrote:

I have heard that, hitting the attacker in the front of the neck, with the area of your hand between your thumb and forefinger is effective.

It can be! But then you need to be able to land it first and then have a back-up plan (as in a fighting system) to back it up!!

Kevin Irving wrote:

But I suspect this could be very dangerous.

Ya! If you don't know how to follow up your acts of aggression then you will get your arse kicked!!

Kevin Irving wrote:

Anyone have any other tips?

Travel in bigger groups??

How exactly did this situation play out??

BTW, don't think that I'm taking the pee out of you there! Just in a funny mood tonight

Mick Coup

BJJ/similar vs. groups of people - be serious mate!

Mick

Baggio...

Hello,

Sorry to hear about your altercation at least no one was hurt.

There are loads of “theoretical” strikes and a million options. Some sound, some not. A lot of it depends on your skill level. If you go the BJJ/grappling route I don't think it's the best option for the type of tactic you are going for, “a stun and run”. BJJ takes X amount of time to learn, plus the ground is the last place you want to be. If he's got mates you will be kicked into oblivion. If he's got a knife it's very accessible and you can't escape from it as your both grappling. The ground is covered in debris. Grappling can be elongated and it's just not tactically sound in that type of scenario (in my humble opinion).

You could learn some nasty shots like Eye jabs and the like (or the webbed hand blow as you already mentioned). But there can take a long time to perfect. Plus if you miss you still have to follow up anyway. Against 5 dudes there is not a lot you can do to be honest - if escape is not an option. Against 2 guys you might have a semi-decent chance if you play your cards right. Before you look at the physical options it might be worth looking back to the events of that night, and see how you were cornered and analyze the situation.

Ask yourself a few questions:
How did they approach?
How long did it take us to realize they were a threat?
Could I have escaped earlier?
How much intent did they have?
Is there anything we could have done previously to avoid the situation?

Again these questions illustrate just how important awareness is.

The best thing you could have done (assuming you could not have run and you were facing say two opponents). Would have lured them into thinking that you were really scared (well, you probably would be anyway) and did not want to fight. Put up you hand in a passive manner, “don't hurt me mate” etc. You may have heard of lots of different “brain engagement tactics”. I would not waste too much time on this subject, as if you employ it, it can actually slow your own response time. Sorry I digress..The opponents ego will go up, and his guard will go down. Then strike pre-emotively as hard as you can. Best option is a palm heel to the chin (if you miss the chin no worries...as long as you hit the head). You can hit multiple times (in fact you should anyway). Then you may be able to run. If not - attack the other guy. There is positioning drills you can do by controlling the first guy and use him as a shield etc. I think this might work, but it really depends on how badly the first guy is stunned, and how well you train it (via clinch). I'd probably jut try and steamroll through the other guy myself.

Also use strikes that flow with body mechanics. Don't let yourself get tangled into a position where you can't strike the second man when you need to. Also, don''t let them in too close if you can, hence the “passive stance” with your hands out IE – situational control. If they use the classic pincer approach the guy to your side is usually the one to strike first (although it's not set in stone). This stuff can be learned pretty quickly, just try a few scenario type drills to work it out some of the finer details. I can't go over everything, but I hope it gives you an idea of how you might get through a similar type situation in the future (God forbid). It really is all about the mindset. A “GLF” principle as Mick might say. Again nothing is a 100% guarantee.

If you want anymore info just PM me.

Cheers,

B.

As Carl Cestari said:”Just attack like a madman...”

Baggio...

Good point from illegalheadbutt.

Why go easy on those scum bags? They wont go easy on you...
You best bet is to cause as much damage as possible (although against 5 dudes, YIKES!).

silat liam

Hi Kevin
If you interested there is a Silat class in Firhouse Sports Center on Mondays and Wednesday, if you want to pop along and have a go, you are more than welcome. There more details about what we teach on our website
www.silateurope.com or you can PM me and I send you more details.

Liam

Musashi

Didn't Wonder Woman have a Golden Lasso she used to stop attackers without hurting them?

Other than that, talk them out of it (while moving into a position better for you, either to fight or run away), just leg it! Or get set to do as much hurting of them as is required for you to get out of that situation.

Again, was this some kind of ambush/mugging attempt or a random thing where five guys just didn't fancy the look of you? Had you seen them earlier? Did you have a chance to detour away or around them? Were all five to your front or were some of them slipping around your outside in a flanking manner? It all goes to their intent dictating how severe you will have to respond. If it means you have to respond physically it would be best for you to "Go Like Feck"?, as five on One is a recipe for being kicked to bits for the unfortuanate One.

kirving

Thanks guys! Really great response.

What actually happened, was we went into a shop when we realised we had no excape, and were collected by my friends dad.

If I had actaully been caught I'd say I was fook'd, because only 2 phones between us wouldn't have pleased the lot of them. Thinking about it, I could have escaped much earlier, but it went from 2 of them to about 10 very fast. They then formed a line, so escape was made extremely difficult. I'll look into some of the things suggested, if there was less of them, running would be a better option, unfortunatly, it wasnt. With 5-1 in a fight, there is no chance I would come off with only a few punches, and most likely, I would have been badly hurt. But thanks for the info guys. Great help.;)

grimloch

I'm not trying to be a smart arse or anything but would a swift kick or a knee to the balls not be alot more efficient?

Obviously it would be a very tall order to incapacitate 5 attackers by means of a groinal assault alone but if you have two people and you can't escape, hitting one of them means he won't be doing anything for some time.

Clive

Miyagi: "One to one problem, yes. FIVE to one problem, too much ask anyone."

Baggio...

"swift kick or a knee to the balls"

Jasus!

kirving

If you got one of them good enough, there might be chance they couldnt reproduce. Hopefully:D

pma-ire

Kevin Irving wrote:

What actually happened, was we went into a shop when we realised we had no excape, and were collected by my friends dad.

now thats using your head!! and is much better than being backed into a situation were it's all stacked against you!!

Kevin Irving wrote:

If I had actaully been caught I'd say I was fook'd, because only 2 phones between us wouldn't have pleased the lot of them. Thinking about it, I could have escaped much earlier, but it went from 2 of them to about 10 very fast. They then formed a line, so escape was made extremely difficult. I'll look into some of the things suggested, if there was less of them, running would be a better option, unfortunatly, it wasnt. With 5-1 in a fight, there is no chance I would come off with only a few punches, and most likely, I would have been badly hurt. But thanks for the info guys. Great help.;)

Do you train in any MA yourself Kevin??

Colm_OReilly

BJJ/similar vs. groups of people - be serious mate!

I have to imagine that's addressed at me. I am serious.

Kevin, my offer still stands. Check out mine, check out Liam's, see which one you like, if either. But check out mine first!

Colm

MarkBrophy

just grab you friend and throw him at them, then run away:D

seriously though check out a few different kinds of martial arts. Personaly i would recommend you visit colms gym. Im a bouncer and find clinch the most usefull range in a bad situation. boxing helps to take away the fear of taking a punch. I guess it would help to learn to hit people too but i try not to do that at work:cool:
I geuss getting atacked on the street is different but i try not to get attacked and with great success too i must say.

takeda shingen

if there is not possible escape and and getting physical is imminent, be proactive attack first and aim to destroy the first guy you hit. nothing wrong with a groin strike either. just dont rely on it to finish the thing straight away

Baggio...

Actually, I'd be very interested in hearing about the strategy's that BJJ would employ against multiple opponents. Or some of the practical street fighting tactics that you might use yourself Colm.

B.

MarkBrophy

id be very interested in hearing ANY strategy for dealing with multiple attackers.

Baggio...

Good point! any more ideas would be welcome.

MarkBrophy

i still think grabbing your freind and throwing him at them is the best.:D

kenpo_dave

MarkBrophy wrote:

i still think grabbing your freind and throwing him at them is the best.:D

I have to agree with Mark. Another trick to consider is making sure that you can run faster than at least 2 of your friends, so that if you do find yourself being chased you know that you wont be caught first and while your friends are getting their teeth kicked in you have a greater chance of escape. However, should you find yourself in a situation where your friends are all great sprinters be sure to kick one, or 2, of them in the knee before they run ahead of you.

Manic Moran

The official firearm equivalent is 'shoot to stop' or 'shoot to drop.'

If under threat, pull the trigger, and don't stop until the target is on the ground. Probably bleeding profusely. Worrying about injuring someone who may not have any qualms about injuring you is not something which will ensure your long-term health.

NTM

Clive

Baggio... wrote:

Actually, I'd be very interested in hearing about the strategy's that BJJ would employ against multiple opponents. Or some of the practical street fighting tactics that you might use yourself Colm.

B.

Well every BJJ instructor I've ever heard talking about self defence (outside of very specific circumstances) has said the same thing that any rational person would: the ground is the last place you want to be.

In this example (5 against 1) the chances of not being knocked onto the ground for a good kicking are fairly slim I'd say, so the methods of escaping from underneath and getting back to the feet would certainly come in handy if you could pull them off.

Baggio...

Clive,

Yup... If 5 lads are involved your going to the ground. What can anyone do against those odds?:(

galfano78

You did the right thing kid, you got yourself and your mate out of dodge by using your head and getting the lift home.

If you do ever find yourself in that situation again always run.

If you get collared or your mate does then you have to stick together and fight.

The best thing to do is to pick out the alpha male, the Fecker who is being most aggressive and do not stop hitting him until he's out of the equation.

If he's gettin a good going over then the rest will think twice before attacking you.

If you knock any of them down make sure they stay down i.e. dance on his head or break a limb.

Then Run some more.

You need Muay Thai for your kicking and punching, Judo/Greco Wrestling for clinch and Brazillian Jiu Jitsu for ground.

To be a good fighter you need to be proficient in all 3 phases.

To do this you need to train hard and train In SBG

Roper

I always carry a steak or two to throw in the other direction. You never know, they might go for it. Pack o' dogs like them.

Steak Kwon Do could save your LIFE!

Baggio...

Or you could go on one of Den Martins "Anti-grappling" courses.

Clive

Baggio... wrote:

Clive,

Yup... If 5 lads are involved your going to the ground. What can anyone do against those odds?:(

Not much really - unless you use the secret techniques of BJJ ie take off your trousers to reveal a pair of homoerotic spandex shorts!

Roper

Baggio... wrote:

Or you could go on one of Den Martins "Anti-grappling" courses.

Den Martin? Character from Eastenders right?

Baggio...

HAH! Den martin.... Eastenders. I never thought of that. Actually I should not even know who you are talking about. Ahem...:o

Actually he's a pretty famous CQC guy.

Better still, I might ask Mick to run something on those lines next time he's over...He's got some sound strategy's for Multiple attackers, and Ground fighting.

B.

Boru.

This may be of intrest. It's an article I wrote for my newsletter after contributing to an earlier thread here on multiple attakers. Please keep in mind these are some limited suggesstions and in no way do they touch actual training against multiple attackers in a full contact scenario. If you want to get good at pushups do pushups. If you want to get good at fighting multiple attackers, fight multiple attackers.

(I've always been of the personal opinion that if faced with multiple attackers and I have no oppertunity to run and that they have expressed a clear INTENT to cause me serious bodily harm I would kill the first person I could touch with a pen in his throat or eyeball, scream as violently as possible, threaten to do the same to his friends and if necessesary do so. Multiple attackers are in many cases, though not all a lethal force siutuation. If that is the case lethal force is the only resonable course of action. Kill them, be killed, or be left in a terrible physical state. Remember a stray kick or punch to your temple or other vunerable areas could leave you with serious brain damage, or worse yet dead, as one young man attacked on the corner of Stephen's Green found out.) Please keep in mind this is MY PERSONAL OPINION only and I am considered somewhat of an exrtremist.

Anyway here is the article, there are some useful drills in there.

---

Against all odds – Surviving multiple attackers –


During a topic raised on an online forum that I participate on, www.boards.ie the subject of multiple attackers was raised. It was suggested that it was a no win situation. I disagree. It’s a topic that often gives rise to frequent confusion so I’m going to layout my opinion, the options available and some drills I teach in my seminars to give you a few training options.

There are several different types of multiple attacker conflicts; the lads who’ve had one too many at the end of your street or outside the pub, an organised group with an agenda, and many common attacks against women are made by multiple assailants.

Your best option is obviously to run, the odds aren’t with you, its not worth the risk, and unlike Steven Segal, most of us don’t have a magical protective pony tail and fight choreographers to organise the opponents and direct a stunning fight sequence. There have been multiple deaths in Ireland as a result from one man being beaten by a gang of thugs. The most immediate in my recollection is the incident that occurred at Stephen’s Green in Dublin city centre, as well as the assault of Charlie Bird during the February riot.

If it’s a situation where you can't run and you’re out numbered I think it becomes very much psychological. If you can't marshal yourself to keep going and fending off the constant barrage of attacks, even when you have been it multiple times and are sore and injured then you lose. If you can keep fighting you stand a chance however relatively small.

Your attitude always determines your outcome, and is a fundamental lesson taught in every class I teach. It’s by far the most important thing to come out of my Women’s Survival Course. Attitude is everything. Give up and you have no chance, fight back and keep fighting maybe you’ll survive. Okay, let’s not be under any illusion you will probably be very badly hurt, broken bones, cuts abrasions, or worse paralysis and permanent physical disability. You fight back to get away.

So why and how do we train and condition for multiple attacker conflicts?

Multiple attackers are scary concept, martial artist or not. Much like anything you are unfamiliar with it can be scary and intimidating. It is however important for a full rounded understanding of self defence that we actively practice scenarios that involve multiple attackers. Criminals often work in groups and many multiple person attacks are based on alcohol fuelled “good times”.

It is always my first intent to teach students to be a Hard Target – someone who is too difficult to take advantage of. Most crime is opportunistic and as long as you never present an easy opportunity most criminals will target someone else. The same is true in multiple attacker situations. Protect yourself at all times by adapting the principals and techniques taught in a Reality Based class, how you stand, walk, talk and interact with others will determine if your are an easy target – make sure you’re not that’s the first and best technique you can be taught. After that everything else is damage limitation. That said, like the boys scouts you should always be prepared and that is why we practice the following drills.

As I said above in multiple attacker conflict having the right mental attitude is of vital importance. Some people are born fighters, others are quitters. One of the gratest benefits Reality Based Training can offer you is how to dig deep, find reserves you never knew you had and the will to keep fighting. One such drill we teach is the Israeli Boiler test. It’s a drill designed to test your "mental fortitude".

Several different arts call under a different name, but the basics of it are as follows/ Try it out it’s a great eye opener.

Everyone has kicking shields and surrounds you. You should have about 10 people for this.

Establish three distances
1) Surrounding but outside of immediate reach, the guy in the middle will have to move to hit you.
2) Within touching distance of the centre guy.
3) Crushing the centre guy.

Have everyone start at 1. Then select one individual to run in and push the centre guy with his shield - the centre guy then attacks this person, immediately launch another person in once the first has been engaged. The idea is to have the centre guy constantly reacting to new, fresh opponents. Blind side him often.

Randomly call 2 and everyone close in, again select individuals to rush him.

3 everyone piles in on him - the idea is to break free and get out! Once out, if able the exercise is restarted.

Keep the length of this drill to your own discretion, some can last a minute, some more, most less. Fighting multiple opponents all out is exhausting, that said the idea is to teach you to keep going past this.

Another excellent exercise is to drill an actual multiple attack scenario. This is often done in my Women’s Survival Course. Have two people in full safety gear attack a lone individual. You can use any techniques you choose, and keep in mind that if you are out numbered you could justify the use of deadly force (e.g. eye gouges etc). One consideration if you are doing this drill is to make sure that if someone is taken to the ground that you don’t land heavy on them.

Two other drills I teach that come to mind would be the Box and the Crescent. The box is where you are unarmed and have to defend a set amount of space from two aggressors. This drill is performed again with upwards of ten people, two of whom are selected to attack, the others just threaten to. Obviously the defender is unaware as to who will attack and who won’t, and they then have to deal with two people spontaneously rushing them and defending a confined space.
The Crescent is real good fun. You’re backed up against a wall, again upwards of ten armed opponents, sticks bats iron bars etc, you also are armed with a stick. You have to keep you back tot eh wall and defend against multiple simultaneous attackers. This is great fun.

Can you defend against multiple opponents? Can you survive? Practice it as realistically as possible and you’ll have a fair idea.

newby.204

Hi im new to this forum was just browsing. Before anyone starts I have a green belt in Karate, BJJ, and some judo experience along with boxing, I took up MA for one reason, i had very little confidence wanted to boost it and i learned to defend myself because of it.

RUN is the best option in this instance, if you cant try to waffle your way out. Failin that prepare for a kicking in that situation. 10 on 2 i dont care who you are your gonig down HARD. You may get one or two of them , but you WILL lose.


In answer to the original question, sure you can learn moves routines in the class, but implementing them is a different matter on the street. I can honestly say i would use little ive learned in a class on the street. Adrenaline + alcohol(likely) equals a broken fist you will punch that hard under pressure, sure you will break his jaw, maybe!. However if i were in a situation were violence was the only way id look for the THROAT or GROIN, fancy throws/kicks/holds forget it, smash them and leave before his/her friends get involved.


If someone has a knife he is
A) a coward
prepared to use it

or worse both, if someone does have knife run like hell, your not bruce lee or anyone else leave it alone.
its worth the slagging not to get stabbed trust me!!!.


Just my opinion, feel free to rip it apart im sure some of you will!!!!

Millionaire

basically your up the creek with no paddle 5 on 1.

when I happend me, the "crazy monkey" was what saved me from violent kicks to the head. just cover, and try to survive until you can get away.

newby.204

Millionaire wrote:

basically your up the creek with no paddle 5 on 1.

Took the words right out of my mouth, now wait for the "hard" lads to tell us its possible to get out of this one, with your hair gel in place lol

Black Swan

Having difficulty trying to picture 5 opponents converging on one fighter at the same moment in time. Unless the single fighter was down, would there be enough room for 5 at the same moment in time?

I seem to recall a film by Japanese Karate Grand Master Fumio Demurra (sp?) whereupon he instructed and demonstrated that if attacked by a group, only 3 could attack at one moment in time. Although 3-to-1 are still terrible odds, if the single defender was highly skilled and the attackers were not, then there would be a chance to prevail (although perhaps a small one).

As other posters have suggested, I would not think that BJJ "grappling" or choking against multiple opponents would be the best defense. Muay Thai (in the spirit of Brazilian Vale Tudo) fists, fingers, elbows, knees, feet, and head butts to all the vulnerable places above and below the belt might be useful?

Further, pulling your blows in order not to hurt your opponents makes no sense against a gang attack. Hitting, then running also seems to be a wise choice against these odds (if running by itself or talking your way out are denied).

Miles Long

If this is too off topic I'll rethread it, but...

I just had the thought, if a police report was taken from the five people about how one guy beat the bejaysus out of each one of them (obviously you're not around to argue) what happens you (if you're tracked down)?
Mr. Policeman: "Surely at some point you could have gotton away rather than assaulting all 5 men?"

I suppose what I'm getting at is, how much SD is too much? When does your retaliation/pre-emptive attack cease to be justified? In general, if you read the posts on SD are a large % not just a fairly vicious assault as a reaction to an attack, i.e. breaking jaws/bones elbowing temples or kicking outsides of knees. Assault is illegal yeah so...

See what I'm getting at? This is taken from a bit of a "morally rightious" perspective which is the last thing to think about in a street fight, but I'm just intrested to hear feedback from people who are heavily immersed in SD.

Thanks,

Rory!

Boru.

Hi Rory,

What you point is a very valid concern and one that I feel is not dealt with adequately. Thats why I wrote a free ebook on the topic (que shameless self-promotion ) of Use of Force - the law and self defence. You can pick up a copy here www.self-defence-ireland.com, you'll see it on the right hand side. Read and let me know if you find it useful...

...we now return to our regular theme....

judomick

Boru whens your next ground survival course?
and is there full resistance drilling of the techniques you teach would like to do it if there is

Baggio...

Hi Miles,

It's a really good point to bring up. Personally, I'm not trying to do anything to anyone, my goal is to come out of an altercation as best I can. I'm not planning to kick some one in the temple if I'm attacked (that can't be morally justified). I don't want to hurt anyone or take any flak afterwards. But if a fight kicks off (and I can't escape) then I'll punch my way out. If I stick a few fingers in his eye during the assault... Well, he's not going to die from it. If he's got a broken jaw – better him than me (bones are not as easy to break as everyone thinks), it will heal. It's level of force to level of threat. But I'm not planning anything really “dirty” per se. I only might decide that I need to escalate the situation, if he's hell bent on my destruction or my girlfriend, if he's got a knife and wants to use it. My primary goal is to escape not punish anyone.

I had a mate that I used to work on the door with (a very nice non aggressive dude). I remember he got into a scrap with someone, and totally not his fault. He went very gentle on this guy as well. But some “do gooder” just saw the end of the fight, and thought my mate had attacked the scumbag. So he got involved. My mate had a hard time with this eeejit. In the end Mr. Do Gooder was carted off in an ambulance. Slightly off the topic, but it illustrates to me that anything can happen. Was my mate justified in kicking around the do gooder? He had no choice, the guy was really trying to do him damage. He was saying to me afterwards that he had no idea that he had hurt the guy. He was not thinking, but just defending himself. You just don't know what can happen – that's why I like the pre conflict stuff so much - avoid and escape.

Just my 2 cents,

B.

Millionaire

thats a point actually from Baggio...

Avoid and Escape...that actually is a big part of RBSD. The Fence as Geoff Thompson calls it... others have their own version of the same.

in fact if you look at lee morrissons site www.urbancombatives.com he got a good article on there this month, about using the fence and the likes to avoid thugs.

I 've used similar myself a few times over the past few years, and it works well to avoid and get away.

Cake Fiend

Musashi wrote:

five on One is a recipe for being kicked to bits for the unfortuanate One.

Yup, just ask that lad who had the same happen to him outside Annabels that time... Oh! You can't, he's under six feet of earth these days. I reckon a situation in which you're outnumbered 5-to-1 should be considered potentially lethal (regardless of whether that's the actual intention of the attackers) and should be dealt with accordingly. That means eyes, throat, balls, etc.

pma-ire

Sico wrote:

Yup, just ask that lad who had the same happen to him outside Annabels that time... Oh! You can't, he's under six feet of earth these days. I reckon a situation in which you're outnumbered 5-to-1 should be considered potentially lethal (regardless of whether that's the actual intention of the attackers) and should be dealt with accordingly. That means eyes, throat, balls, etc.

Ah but they were lovely lads and they promised not to do it again because they are gonna finish college and have a great life!!

Baggio...

Even if these guys kick you to bits and they are caught, the law does feck all. What have they got to loose?

Just look at that Annabell's thing again...:mad:

pma-ire

Baggio... wrote:

Even if these guys kick you to bits and they are caught, the law does feck all. What have they got to loose?

Just look at that Annabell's thing again...:mad:

This showed the reality of attacks like that!

You have to remove yourself from real situations no matter how many there are!! Cause it can turn out nasty even without any intent from the agressor(s)!!

Dave Joyce

Wrecked tired so I hope some of this reads like its meant to. In answer to the whole consequences thing, I think Geoff Thompson address's it really well in FEAR (nearly certain its this book) and basically says if you worry about legalities, his mates or your responce to the attack, then you're fuvked.

If you have the luxury of wondering whether or not you can render your attackers incapable, then either there is no great/immediate need to let things turn physical or you won't have the capabilities to do fuvk all to them, regardless of how things shape up. (PLEASE NOTE: this is not an insult/slight towards anyone, some people do not have it in them to do nasty things when nasty things are what is required to SURVIVE a situation).

A lot of tactics that are being discussed visa vee multiple opponents are various ways of fighting more than one person at the same time. Have you ever gloved up and tried fist fighting a couple of guys at the same time? You get the ship knocked outta ya very quickly. Have any of the guys espousing these methods ever had to use them regularly to stay alive?

I train (among other things) in Atienza Kali and they are known in the States for their Mass Attack training and it is this very material that kept them (all 3 brothers) alive (on a very regular basis) while they grew up in NY during the '80's and 90's and where most people had to run with gangs for protection or survival. Is it nice, and is it learnt easy? Hell no, and maybe some of the stuff, could be excessive force but I know from what I've seen is that it works and you have to be able to fight and be fit to make it work.

Roper

I love healthy imaginations though. Personally if I was attacked by five guys, it would be because they were jealous that I was stepping out with Uma Thurman. I'd use serious high flashy spinning kicks to knock them all out, except for the last one, I'd knock the cigarrette out of his mouth with a scissors leg roundhouse, and then let him go, to show I was merciful. Then Uma Thurman would be so impressed that she and I would go home together and make sweet, sweet love all night. Ooooh yeeaahh...

Never going to happen of course but I think its as realistic as most of the "hypotheticals" of what to do. And mine has a hot chick in it. We could post on and come up with "what ifs" to infinity, and none of them would be able to descibe a random situation like that.

I think y'all need to look at what Dave said and try his two on one training example. I've done it before and the "one" got hockeyed 100% of the time, even when he was particularly strong and skilled.

Baggio...

Dave,

“Have you ever gloved up and tried fist fighting a couple of guys at the same time? You get the ship knocked outta ya very quickly. Have any of the guys espousing these methods ever had to use them regularly to stay alive?”

A) Of course.
Of course not.

Go preemptive, if you are about to be attacked – if it works great. If it doesn't, **** happens.

If you want to see what strategy's Geoff Thompson uses against multiple opponents – Then I suggest you look at the “pavement arena”.

Roper

I don't think I'm too interested in what DVD's you all watch, or who you namecheck in your posts. I'm more interested in how you train. If someone asked me "how do you defend the takedown", I wouldn't say "watch Chuck Liddell" because obviously I am not him, nor are any of you GT, or RD, or BA. WHat methods do YOU use in your everday training that makes you able to comment on how to train against multiple opponents and dismiss the experience of people who train for ONE opponent?

I haven't heard anything about your own training and routines yet TBH. Just namechecking.