Won't ever own a house !!

lomb

DublinWriter wrote:

survival of the fittest.

or the fattest eh?

whizzbang

DublinWriter wrote:

So much for the Celtic Tiger - survival of the fittest.

The Celtic tiger's dead and gone, its with O'Leary in the grave.



J

lomb

DublinWriter wrote:

You'd only be elligable for such products if you're over 65.

Think about it. Banks are not idiots.

also they only give u a max of 20% of the house value if u are between 60 and 65, rising to 30 and 40% when u are going to kick the bucket anyway. so they are WELL covered against u living till 120 years of age or any cyclical downturn.

their terms are somewhat reasonable, they dont own the house at least SHIP dont, they only take a first charge over it. whatever they lend u (minimum of 25 grand) they loan it to u at 6.4% apr ( an extortionate rate but hey)and the interest continues to mount on the original amount lent. because u dont repay any interest unfortunately the interest adds on to the principal and therefore compunds, so that a 100 grand loan means u will owe 250 grand in 15 years. but then again house prices increase at more than 6% compound so if the boom continues then the loan will cost zilch.

u can repay them at anypoint, as can your estate, the problem is if u are out of the country or ill and have left the house for more than 6 months and 1 day, the loan must be repaid and if necessary the house sold to pay it. the other problem is if they advance u 100 grand u may not even need it immediately only needed 10 grand a year top up, but when u drawdown the loan they give u a minimum of 25 only and persumably solicitor fees to draw more down as the years go on would also be problematic.

Cantab.

€400,000 grand buys you this northside property:

myhome.ie

This property will cost you €1900 a month (at current interest rates via Permanent TSB) for the next 30 years complete with 1.5 hour commute.

€1,800 a month in rent gets you this southside property fully furnished and in the south Dublin suburb of Dundrum.

www.daft.ie/

whizzbang

Cantab. wrote:

€400,000 grand buys you this northside property:....

great examples! Unfortunatly we all know that people who rent are communists.


(isn't it amazing that people think a 30 year mortgage is reasonable now?! Next we'll be getting "Mortgages at birth")

ambro25

whizzbang wrote:

Next we'll be getting "Mortgages at birth")

Well, considering that SHIP thing and if your kids want to keep the family home in the family, I'm afraid we're already there

whizzbang

ambro25 wrote:

Well, considering that SHIP thing and if your kids want to keep the family home in the family, I'm afraid we're already there

Ahh Multigenerational mortgages, the banks must be delighted with themselves!
Multigenerational mortgages

ambro25

Interesting linkie, a lot of 'incidental echoing' with past & present IE gvt practices. But what have you done ?!? :eek: what with linking to an article that discusses 'bubbles' and all that ...'ere we go again

whizzbang

ambro25 wrote:

But what have you done ?!? :eek: what with linking to an article that discusses 'bubbles' and all that ...'ere we go again

hey if these sort of mortgages are associated with bubbles that not my fault! I just googled "Multigenerational mortgages"!

FillSpectre

Cantab. wrote:

€400,000 grand buys you this northside property:

myhome.ie

This property will cost you €1900 a month (at current interest rates via Permanent TSB) for the next 30 years complete with 1.5 hour commute.

€1,800 a month in rent gets you this southside property fully furnished and in the south Dublin suburb of Dundrum.

www.daft.ie/

And what will the price be in 5 years or 10 years. Rents stay linked to inflation more so than a mortgage.

I also don't see why you think traveling from Dundrum has no commutor time or that it is better than living on the Northside co. Dublin.

Not owning your own furniture is a bad thing in my eyes as you ar3e stuck with what ever the landlord thinks is nice or worse cheap.

Landlords don't tend to let tenants decorate.
It depends on who you are but renting does have cons as well as pros as does owning.

Most people like to have their own space which isn't really possible if you have no choice on the interior.

DublinWriter

Cantab. wrote:

€400,000 grand buys you this northside property:

myhome.ie

This property will cost you €1900 a month (at current interest rates via Permanent TSB) for the next 30 years complete with 1.5 hour commute.

€1,800 a month in rent gets you this southside property fully furnished and in the south Dublin suburb of Dundrum.

And compare what you'd own after 30 years - a house, probably worth 2 million Eurodollars in 2036 currency versus owning well, zip, basically.

chump

I personally think a slump is inevitable, and not just a levelling out.

Homes are no longer affordable. We've been spun this nonsense that because a monthly mortgage payment (at record low interest rates) are somewhat comparable to rental prices (which they aren't) it is a better option to buy.

Problems I see with this, are
1. renting is cheaper than buying, in a fair tests with all variables being equal renting is cheaper and often affords a better quality location, spec, + ...

2. interest rates are at record lows and only rising. There is too much cheap money in the economy (and around europe) and we owe far too much. Interest rate increases are going to cripple strectched home owners and further finish off investors who buy to let.

2a. Of course it will be argued that rent will increase - but rent cannot rise any further than what people can afford. And as most rented properties cater for low waged, and unskilled workers - they can only afford so much. Plus do you believe the government is just going to increase rent allowances to satisfy investors?
Also the rental market is being buoyed by immigrant workers, in the construction and low-paid industries. The construction industry can only decline for its level now, as housebuilding will not increase further, and enough government infrastructure spending to curtail the decline in construction jobs is unlikely,

2b. higher interest rates with stagnant or slowly rising rents will prompt investors to sell up (400k mortgage @ 2.8% mortgage over 35years = 1495.10pm, 400k @ 3.7% over 35years = 1699.84) Now increase this by a few percent, imagine we were in the US and rates kept rising. Investors, and boy is there alot of them, will flee. I believe a large amount of investors are amateurs riding a wave, watch them squirm when the **** hits the fan.

2c. we're making too many homes. 80k odd a year. population increasing by max. 80k a year. 2 or 3 ppl per home. Where the other homes going - investors and FTB's. decrease amount of homes being made -> construction dips -> immigrants leave -> less rental accom. needed -> more avail. to buy -> price decrease

3. people are buying houses in truely awful locations in the hope that the price appreciation, wage increases and equity will enable them to move UP THE LADDER. What happens if prices remain stagnant or decrease, and how long with on a 35year mortgage will it take for repayments to actually make any dent into the Principle ( and not the interest element) of a mortgage. Also look at the added costs of being a second time buyer, higher stamp duty and transaction costs in flogging your old and buying your new.

So using https://www.ezhome.ie/ezhome/Calculators/mortgagecalc.asp
400k mortgage, 4% nominal rate, 35years, assuming 100% mortgage
After 5years, you've only repaid 29k off the principle. That's it.

Ok, so they sell up, and are interested in a home for 600k, stamp duty for first time buyer is 6%, second time buyer 7.5%.
FTB, 36k extra
STB, 45k extra == 9k extra.

Let's assume it costs 5k to sell a home, and 5k to buy

Cost for home owner to upgrade home= 600k (price) + 45k (duty) + 5k (selling) + 5k (buying) - 29k (equity orig. home) = 626k

Over 5years, renter saved 400euro a month = 24k

So, Cost renter to buy 600k home = 600k + 36 + 5 = 641 - 24 (rent savings) = 617k

OK, so assumptions,
5k to buy and sell
100% mortgage
rental savings (and I find this acceptable)
4% nominal rate
no capital appreciation

Flaws:
even if no 'real' capital appreciation, likely to be inflationary increase
selling costs likely to be much higher, aswell as buying
ignored second 'buying' cost from original buyer
also hidden extra costs of owning a home

In my eyes, in these uncertain times, it may actually be a saving to rent. Now imagine if there a decline in prices. Also imagine if for less money you could get a home in a much nicer location to rent.


there's more points but I'm tired of typing
^^^^^^^^
Basically from the calculation above, when many people agree that prices will level off, it goes to show you that while waiting to buy a home you'd want to live in (wage increases, partner etc. etc.) it may make more sense to rent than buy.

chump

Originally Posted by Cantab.
€400,000 grand buys you this northside property:

myhome.ie

This property will cost you €1900 a month (at current interest rates via Permanent TSB) for the next 30 years complete with 1.5 hour commute.

€1,800 a month in rent gets you this southside property fully furnished and in the south Dublin suburb of Dundrum.

Well have you actually added in stamp duty here?
And added in transaction costs?
And is it a fair test, are you comparing like with like?

Why do you think rent increases will follow interest rate hikes?
Has that always happened?

Also how long does one have to live with mommy and daddy to save up a deposit?
Or do they choose a 100% mortgage?
Or borrow at 7/8% (car loan) to pay mortgage?

I'm personally waiting until I'm earning a nice salary before I plump to by. I'd much rather live close to the city that out in the schticks in a joke of a house spending 3-4hours a day stuck in traffic.
Buy when you can afford to buy I reckon is the best bet. Don't just buy any old place in any old location to get on the property ladder because 'renting is dead money'...

layke

Personally, I am praying Poland kicks off like Ireland did after it's entry to the EU and when everyone leaves the country (as in mass exodus back home) it will leave people desperate to sell their properties (or so my wishful thinking goes).

If the above ever happens I will be there to take it off your hands at a much much lower price then you originally paid

Till then, i'm buying a place in Spain where it's cheap

chump

I just think houses are overpriced here.

For example, when I become a qual. accountant let's say I'm earning 50k a year. And I hook up with a girl who's earning 50k too. So we'd have 100k and I'd regard that as a fairly decent salary in both historical (relative) and todays context.
So do you think people on this money (or equivalent) back in our parents time would have to live in a 2/3 bed apartment in some city centre apartment or in some average house in just fairly OK area, but nothing special?

I personally don't think so.
I think on a combined 100k a year you should be able to live in a nice detached/semi-d house in a good location close to plenty of amenities and your work, and have your house paid for in no more than 25years. And also have a bit of spending money.

Maybe I'm just dreaming though, eh?

ambro25

layke wrote:

Till then, i'm buying a place in Spain where it's cheap

Erm... it's cheap, relative to current Dublin prices. But (depending where in Spain you're considering) it's currently way overpriced as well, and has been so for last 5 years at least, as a cause-and-effect of Brits buying en-masse for the last 10 years (your average "equity-releasing" Brit has not bought to let locally/nationally, they've bought to let holiday homes in Spain/Florida - and still are)

Afuera

Chump, good post stating your position on why you feel a slump is inevitable. In particular your example showing what positions the renter and the buyer would be in if prices remained stagnant is very sobering. I don't think many people realize that the mythical "property ladder" only exists if prices are moving up.

The long term average price of a house has been in or around 4 times the average salary. Any divergence away from this should be examed very carefully to see if there is a chance that a bubble is forming (or can the increase actually be backed up by the fundamentals?). I don't think that the 10+ multiple required to buy nowadays can be justified by demand alone and I feel speculation is playing quite a big part (FTB's or even parents of future FTB's speculating that if they don't buy now it may be too late, investors speculating that they will be able to earn jumbo profits off the future value).

layke wrote:

Till then, i'm buying a place in Spain where it's cheap

While houses in Spain may appear to be cheap from an Irish perspective they are in fact grossly overvalued there also (the OECD stated that it may be a high as 40% overvalued).

In areas where there are a good supply of jobs the prices are comparable to Irish ones. In other more touristy areas such as along the Costa's they are cheaper but offer little opportunities should you decide to try and live there permanently. On top of that there has been a lot of overdevelopment in the past few years meaning that resale values of second-hand properties are terrible.

FillSpectre

chump wrote:

I just think houses are overpriced here.
For example, when I become a qual. accountant let's say I'm earning 50k a year. And I hook up with a girl who's earning 50k too. So we'd have 100k and I'd regard that as a fairly decent salary in both historical (relative) and todays context.
So do you think people on this money (or equivalent) back in our parents time would have to live in a 2/3 bed apartment in some city centre apartment or in some average house in just fairly OK area, but nothing special?

I think on a combined 100k a year you should be able to live in a nice detached/semi-d house in a good location close to plenty of amenities and your work, and have your house paid for in no more than 25years. And also have a bit of spending money.

Well what you think means nothing. IN other European places people of a high income don't own their houses so why won't that situation change here. Just becasue you expect certain standards doesn't mean you get them. Your view of what is nice will always be determined by who has what above you.


I get it is hard and that people don't like but get over it you don't get to have everything you want. Life is like that and unfair.

Out of curiosity have you actually done anything to try and get those in power to change things or do you moan on everything this way. It's great to have personal beliefs but if you do nothing about it then how are you any better than those in charge?

Stop living in the past. In order for your parents to be able to afford a house several things were going on that have changed.
1) THe state no longer gives away free housing like it did. More people have to buy privately as a result
2) Private housing was not in demand due to low employment hence people didn't wanst to live here.
3) You had to have a job. You think not been able to affod a ouse is bad people couldn't afford to live
4) There was less people and more land.

Now if you add these things up you might realise 18k above the industrial wage is not a massive leap over everybody else compared to the past.

Don't compare the past with the present unless you actually know the past.

chump

FillSpectre wrote:

Well what you think means nothing. IN other European places people of a high income don't own their houses so why won't that situation change here.

Of course it doesn't, I was expressing an opinion. Thankfully yours doesn't matter either.

FillSpectre wrote:

Just becasue you expect certain standards doesn't mean you get them. Your view of what is nice will always be determined by who has what above you.

I don't expect, I'd like if that was the case.

FillSpectre wrote:

I get it is hard and that people don't like but get over it you don't get to have everything you want. Life is like that and unfair.

Yea, I agree. Of course people don't have everything they want.

FillSpectre wrote:

Out of curiosity have you actually done anything to try and get those in power to change things or do you moan on everything this way. It's great to have personal beliefs but if you do nothing about it then how are you any better than those in charge?

What are you talking about here? I'm expressing my opinion/take on a situation - that's all.

FillSpectre wrote:

Stop living in the past. In order for your parents to be able to afford a house several things were going on that have changed.
1) THe state no longer gives away free housing like it did. More people have to buy privately as a result
2) Private housing was not in demand due to low employment hence people didn't wanst to live here.
3) You had to have a job. You think not been able to affod a ouse is bad people couldn't afford to live
4) There was less people and more land.

1.The state gives rental allowance and provides more social services than ever before.
2. yup
3. people still need a job nowadays, infact whereas one job might suffice back then to keep a family afloat, 2 jobs may be needed now - thankfully jobs are relatively plentiful at the minute
4. less people, yes, but we're building up and up now

FillSpectre wrote:

Now if you add these things up you might realise 18k above the industrial wage is not a massive leap over everybody else compared to the past.

I was just drawing a picture of a scenario where a relatively well off 'couple'. Ie. a house with 2 earners, don't get much for their money these days. Also the average industrial wage is hardly of much significance any more.

FillSpectre wrote:

Don't compare the past with the present unless you actually know the past.

Sorry about that pal. You obviously don't agree that irish house prices are overvalued, or are likely to plateau any time soon. That's fair enough. I've outlined my thoughts to the reasons why. Maybe you can explain to me what your actual thoughts are, instead of attempting to undermine my opinion with vague references to the past.

addie

FillSpectre wrote:

Well what you think means nothing. IN other European places people of a high income don't own their houses so why won't that situation change here. Just becasue you expect certain standards doesn't mean you get them. Your view of what is nice will always be determined by who has what above you.


I get it is hard and that people don't like but get over it you don't get to have everything you want. Life is like that and unfair.

Out of curiosity have you actually done anything to try and get those in power to change things are do you moan on everything this way. It's great to have personal beliefs but if you do nothing about it then how are you any better than those in charge?

Stop living in the past. In order for your parents to be able to afford a house several things were going on that have changed.
1) THe state no longer gives away free housing like it did. More people have to buy privately as a result
2) Private housing was not in demand due to low employment hence people didn't wanst to live here.
3) You had to have a job. You think not been able to affod a ouse is bad people couldn't afford to live
4) There was less people and more land.

Now if you add these things up you might realise 18k above the industrial wage is not a massive leap over everybody else compared to the past.

Don't compare the past with the present unless you actually know the past.

The voice of reason!

A friend of mine in Paris is doing very well for himself and is earning quite a good salary in French terms. He's unmarried but has a girlfirend, is in his late 30s and has no kids yet. Recently he bought his first property; a two-bedroomed apartment in a nice area of Paris, but not all that close to the City Centre. This is the norm in other European countries- that the first property you buy is sufficient for your needs at the time. Ireland is becoming more Europeanised in so many different regards, but not when it comes to buying property! There is still a very old-fashioned notion that your first home needs to be a family home, regardless of if you have even started a family or whether or not you intend settling there for the rest of your life.

Anyway Chump, if what you're looking for is

nice detached/semi-d house in a good location close to plenty of amenities and your work, and have your house paid for in no more than 25years. And also have a bit of spending money

a 3-bed semi-d on the city-end of Crumlin will set you back about 400k. I've recently bought a house in Crumlin myself. The location has become very desirable in recent years with the city centre, Harold's Cross and Terenure all nearby but considerably more expensive. There are plenty of shops, schools, parks, a gym, etc. in the area. Presuming you and your imaginary girlfirend were working in Dublin city centre, you're not far from work. I would have thought 400k would be pretty affordable for someone earning a 50k salary. It might be that I've misinterpretted what you mean by a "good location" though- as you seem to me to be a bit old-fashioned in what you're looking for in your first property, maybe you also have an old-fashioned notion of where the good locations in Dublin are too!

chump

addie wrote:

Anyway Chump, if what you're looking for is a 3-bed semi-d on the city-end of Crumlin will set you back about 400k. I've recently bought a house in Crumlin myself. The location has become very desirable in recent years with the city centre, Harold's Cross and Terenure all nearby but considerably more expensive. There are plenty of shops, schools, parks, a gym, etc. in the area. Presuming you and your imaginary girlfirend were working in Dublin city centre, you're not far from work. I would have thought 400k would be pretty affordable for someone earning a 50k salary. It might be that I've misinterpretted what you mean by a "good location" though- as you seem to me to be a bit old-fashioned in what you're looking for in your first property, maybe you also have an old-fashioned notion of where the good locations in Dublin are too!

Maybe I'm just a snob.
Also a single individual in dublin would probably need to be doing quite well for himself too, to buy a nice two bedroom apartment in an area close enough to the city.
Also how can you compare a city like Paris to Dublin? Yes it's in Europe, yes it's a capital city - but are there many other similarities?

Of course the 11 million people living in it's metropolitan area does compare closely to that of Dublin.

Why don't you analyse my actual reasonings as to why I think the irish property market is overvalued and criticise them instead of my humble old-fashioned notions?

And also your notion of getting a first home, is perhaps somewhat different to mine, as I may refer to a medium term rented property as home - but of course you don't. A home is something you OWN (or owe money on) after all?

Regarding your recent purchase I hope for your sake that it wasn't a 35yr 100% mortgage that you had to stretch to get, or that prices fall or level off or that interest rates increase to an extent that will seriously impinge on your ability to live decently.

whizzbang

FillSpectre wrote:

4) There was less people and more land.

Are you suggesting we are running out of land here? less than 10% of Ireland is urbanised, and that is urban sprawl as well (little high rise). What we have is a lack of zoned land and this is an artificual scarcity as the law on this could change tomorrow.

addie

chump wrote:

Maybe I'm just a snob.
Also a single individual in dublin would probably need to be doing quite well for himself too, to buy a nice two bedroom apartment in an area close enough to the city.

G'doink, you're not even paying attention. My friend isn't single, he's unmarried with a girlfriend, i.e. while there is someone to help with his mortgage repayments he isn't assuming that because they're a couple they should buy a family home. Also, I stated that his apartment isn't close to the city.

Also how can you compare a city like Paris to Dublin? Yes it's in Europe, yes it's a capital city - but are there many other similarities?

I wasn't comparing the two cities, I was comparing the attitudes of the first-time buyers in the cities.

Why don't you analyse my actual reasonings as to why I think the irish property market is overvalued and criticise them instead of my humble old-fashioned notions

Fine, will do: Your reasoning is that you should be able to buy a big house in a nice area like people did 50 years ago. Ireland and it's economy have changed vastly in the last 50 years and naturally the property market has changed also.

chump

addie wrote:

G'doink, you're not even paying attention. My friend isn't single, he's unmarried with a girlfriend, i.e. while there is someone to help with his mortgage repayments he isn't assuming that because they're a couple they should buy a family home. Also, I stated that his apartment isn't close to the city.

Unmarried and bought by himself, so I doubt his girlfriends contribution was a factor in attaining a mortgage. Isn't close perhaps, but surely 'quite' close in a city with 11m ppl in its metropolitan area is equivalent to an 'area close enough' to dublin city. Relative.

addie wrote:

I wasn't comparing the two cities, I wa comparing the attitudes to the first-time buyers in the cities.

No you weren't, you were comparing your friend who was doing well who bought an apartment in paris to me apparently who expects to be able to buy a 2/3 bed semi in a good area as my first purchase. Which I never said. I said that if I and my magical mystery gf had an income of 100k we couldn't buy much. Never mentioned anywhere about 1st home/house etc. Also is it not possible to rent until you're in old age with family, so surely then a FIRST time buyer should be able to comtemplate the affordability of a family home?

addie wrote:

Fine, will do: Your reasoning is that you should be able to buy a big house in a nice area like people did 50 years ago. Ireland and it's economy have changed vastly in the last 50 years and naturally the property market has changed also.

Infact I listed 3 points, some with subsections in a further post above.

It's clear from your posts that your of the mindset that it is better for a first purchase to be something suitable that you can afford, and you can't expect too much.

My mentality, based on my points above, is that I would prefer to rent (in our current economic environment) until I was in a position to buy something that I'd be happier to live in (instead of something I might possibly be able to afford, hours away from where I work), and maybe save some money/hassle in doing so. I then gave the example of if in a few years when I was earning more money and with someone else, that even then I probably couldn't afford anything like the quality people got in the past in similar situations.

Calina

addie wrote:

A friend of mine in Paris is doing very well for himself and is earning quite a good salary in French terms. He's unmarried but has a girlfirend, is in his late 30s and has no kids yet. Recently he bought his first property; a two-bedroomed apartment in a nice area of Paris, but not all that close to the City Centre. This is the norm in other European countries- that the first property you buy is sufficient for your needs at the time. Ireland is becoming more Europeanised in so many different regards, but not when it comes to buying property!

What are my needs at this time? An apartment with reasonable storage within 15 minutes drive of my workplace which is happily outside the city centre, with two bedrooms because God help us all I have friends who might stay over once in a while?

What is currently available to me at this time that fills my needs?

Nothing.

I used to live in Paris. What you describe for your friend is absolutely possible there. Right now, I live in Dublin. Unless you're earning 80KE a year, it is not possible. I'll rephrase that.

Nothing that is available for sale in Dublin is sufficient to meet my needs in terms of space, location, affordability and access to public transport. Not only that, there is so much grief involving management companies, I'm not sure I need the grief involved. I never had those problems in Paris. I never had them in Brussels.

Incidentally, being Europeanised about property means not being snobby about people who rent. Judging by this board, we've a hell of a long way to go on that front. It also means building suitable accommodation which is something we're damn bad at at entry level. Have you seen any of the two bedroomed apartments that have gone up in Balbriggan in the past two or three years?

There seem to be a lot of people out there who feel qualified to tell other people what they need instead of letting those people decide for themselves.

FillSpectre

chump wrote:

Maybe I'm just a snob.

Obviously you are. You view that you as person on a good salary should be able to afford better suggests you don't think much of what you could afford. Hence you think those living like that way are beneath you.


Why don't you analyse my actual reasonings as to why I think the irish property market is overvalued and criticise them instead of my humble old-fashioned notions?

It was me who criticised your notions becasue it is so very basic and dull. No insight is offered by anything you havce said. It is like the cliche I expect to hear from a hack journalist writing a financial article for the sun.

Classically ignorant post from yourself

"And as most rented properties cater for low waged, and unskilled workers"
Since when? Do you know what Dublin is like? All my friends who don't own rent and many are on a lot more than your future 50k wage. You are choosing to ignore possible changes and are hoping it will be prices that give. Homeownsership rates could drop instead.

Your points are actually been made and in fact made in a better way with less assumptions. From what you have said I am assuming that you don't really understand what you are talking about but have picked up some points. You might just be bad at making yourself known but I think you just rehashed some other ideas without really understanding them. You failed to consider other aspects of a changing society.

There is no point in challanging your points as they have been well battered out already. It relies heavily on many assumption and ignores any challenge. It is all based around the assumption people buy their homes and general old-fashioned views

chump wrote:

Regarding your recent purchase I hope for your sake that it wasn't a 35yr 100% mortgage that you had to stretch to get, or that prices fall or level off or that interest rates increase to an extent that will seriously impinge on your ability to live decently.

Actually that is another assumption. How many people actually have 100% mortgage for 35 years? It is always banded about as the how bad it is but nobody who ever says it can actually state the figures. Here is your chance to support your other beliefs that it is over valued here and that we are close to stagnating.

FillSpectre

whizzbang wrote:

Are you suggesting we are running out of land here? less than 10% of Ireland is urbanised, and that is urban sprawl as well (little high rise). What we have is a lack of zoned land and this is an artificual scarcity as the law on this could change tomorrow.

Yes I am but before you go mental. Land does not just cover land in a normal term but servicable land. Re-zoning has nothing to do with that as unless the sewage works are there zoning doesn't matter.

ambro25

Calina wrote:

(...)

Here, here. Good to be hearing the same points raised by someone who has apparently spent a bit of time living overseas (like me ) - just be careful around these parts, Ms Calina, as you can tell from the way this thread is shaping (as have so many others before in here ), we renters can never make any good points anyhow (not that we're out to convince, mind: I'd rather every other Tom, Dick and Paddy keep buying and buying-to-let instead of renting, it keeps the rent prices lower so ...and the harder the fall, of course, if it ever does happen!)

chump

FillSpectre wrote:

yapyapyap

The tone, content and exectution of your posts says one thing to me: "please ignore". I'm not bothered getting involved in a slagging macth, so rest easy.

gamer

Look at,im an adult get me outta here program for tips, if you team up with friend,relative, go 50/50 ,40/60 on JOINT house purchase ,in dublin, in ten years time ,you could sell up,buy 2bed house in country,houses down country ,much cheaper , they are not building enough houses in dublin,therefore prices going up,ten percent, dublin is now an international city,like london, prices will ALWAYS go up, or buy apartment ,if you cant afford house,more people should look at joint house purchase options, theres social house and coops, building houses too.