Very succesful year for Irish Rugby but........

Diamondmaker

............Can we compete down under this time, will we feature at the world cup???

With Munster 1 & 3 in HCup & CL
Ulster 1 in CL
Leinster 2 and 3/4 CL HCup
Ireland some good seasons recently.

Squad of players used to success....

But are we getting any where near the required level? We still struggle / get wallopped by France and are possibly only beating the English while they are down. So do we have any real hope down under? Will the world cup lead to more tears.?
What can Ireland do to improve this Summer and for next season?

iFight

I dsay that we are on the right track, but wouldnt yet be able to take on the south hemisphere giants. We may come the World Cup though

spanner

I think we have the best squad of players available for the irish squad that has ever been seen in the last 30 years at least. Yes I think we could do great things and take a few big scalps however it will mean getting a 100% from the players and getting the tatics right so that we can function as a team which we have failed to do up to now.

We have some great players who just are not preforming at international level but who are showing their capablities at provinical level. As George Hook
said they dont know if they are playing Munster Rugby or Leinster rugby.

It will have to start from Management. Biarritz had a better team than Munster on paper however it was Munsters ability to get 100% from all players and everybody to function as a team that won them the competion

EdgarAllenPoo

You would think they have a chance but there is the factor which I call "the curse of the green jersey" it is most evidant in Geordan Murphy. Watch him play for Leicster then watch him play for Ireland, it's like he couldn't be arsed once he puts on a green shirt.
I've always said it, put Munster in green and things might be different but even Munster players seem to have the same troubles as Murphy, do the foreign players on provincial teams make that much of a difference to the way they play?

spanner

GDM wrote:

You would think they have a chance but there is the factor which I call "the curse of the green jersey" it is most evidant in Geordan Murphy. Watch him play for Leicster then watch him play for Ireland, it's like he couldn't be arsed once he puts on a green shirt.

I dont think it is that he cant be arsed, I think he is been made to play in a different role, a role he is just not suited to. EOS has really just smothered the back row. I am not saying we have the best back line in the world but we do have a very under used backline, there is no free flowing play, moving the ball along the line, just a conservative ping the corner game along with the odd solo burst of brillance that is all to rare.

It would be great to see BOD and darcy running of murphy or vice versa but murphy simply pings the corners. We seen what Murphy can do, Leinster in Toulouse showed that if the right buttons are pressed amazing things can be got. Also Munsters backline have proven that they arent just there to make up the numbers.

We have some of the most talented players to ever have put on a green jersey, there is no reason why we couldnt win the world cup if the right preparation is done.

EdgarAllenPoo

Except that EOS is the coach, he needs to go, I don't know who should replace him(Michael Bradley) but he just isn't right for the job, Tommy Bowe shouldn't have been given the caps he was, not to mention the fact that with the exception of Murphy EOS seems reluctant to include Irish players playing abroad.

Diamondmaker

Tommy Bowe ! Worst Irish player to be capped in my living memory.....looked so out of depth in his games.

Yes we have the best panel of players ever/ Murphy seems contained by EOS and asked to be more reserved. See the difference in Girv this season with Cheika. I remember at the beginning of the season Cheiks was talking him up and saying he is deceptively fast etc...then as the season progressed we saw a Girv that we never knew....EOS and Kidney etc had robbed his flair and confidence perhaps, "good old solid high ball cliche Girv "

It would be nice to have a more exciting coach alright ! But EOS last season seems to have been saying he wanted to push this aspect...we only saw it V France 2nd half really though. That is very debatable about how much off the gas the French went..only natural of course1

Roll on the All Blacks we have a lot of pride to salvage from the Lions tour and our last drubbing!
Our Munster boys and Leinster boys fresh from this seasons French scalping should go to France V France in the WC hopefully with a confidence that never was before.:cool:

kermitdfrog

spanner wrote:

I dont think it is that he cant be arsed, I think he is been made to play in a different role, a role he is just not suited to. EOS has really just smothered the back row. I am not saying we have the best back line in the world but we do have a very under used backline, there is no free flowing play, moving the ball along the line, just a conservative ping the corner game along with the odd solo burst of brillance that is all to rare.

It's not a "can't be arsed", it's a different levelof rugby. As intense as HEC is it doesnt match International rugby, hence why good, even great, provincial or club players dont live up to expectations in the int arena.

As for EOS smotering the backline, I wouldnt agree - I think he lost his way in the 2005 season, no doubt, after some amazing rugby in 04, but we're finding our feet again - look at the England game from this years 6N ( I watched it last night) and some of the backline play and play in general was phenomenal. Things don't change overnight (it took Leinster half a season to realise our potential this year under Cheika), and Ireland's gameplan has only begin to shift since the Autumn.

It would be great to see BOD and darcy running of murphy or vice versa but murphy simply pings the corners. We seen what Murphy can do, Leinster in Toulouse showed that if the right buttons are pressed amazing things can be got. Also Munsters backline have proven that they arent just there to make up the numbers.

Again, watch the England game.

We have some of the most talented players to ever have put on a green jersey, there is no reason why we couldnt win the world cup if the right preparation is done.

Totally agree.

Tommy Bowe ! Worst Irish player to be capped in my living memory.....looked so out of depth in his games.

Worse than A.Horgan? Come on! Bowe was the right call, he has been class at provincial level. He was out of his depth at int level, I agree, but we only have prov games to go on to judge a player until they play int rugby. He looked good up to the Aut tests, but floundered, and Trimble has taken his place, rightfully so.

not to mention the fact that with the exception of Murphy EOS seems reluctant to include Irish players playing abroad.

:yawn: Yet another myth with no substance to back it up... Murphy, JOC, Cullen, all selected for 6N or NZ. Jennings captain of the CC squad. Reddan and Staunton in the 6N and/or NZ squads. Bracken going to NZ. Duffy again picked for the summer tour. Keogh, Quinlan, Browne, all in the CC squad. Simon Easterby is a regular. Just because certain players arent picked and the media makes a fuss over them, it becomes a "foreign based player" issue, instead of realising that those players just arent good enough.

daveirl

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RuggieBear

daveirl wrote:

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I believe a certain stefan terblanche scored 4 tries against him on debut.

Snickers Man

RuggieBear wrote:

I believe a certain stefan terblanche scored 4 tries against him on debut.

He certainly did. I didn't see that game myself but I believe his defensive frailties were ruthlessly exposed then. He has since improved them greatly.

However, Hickie ALWAYS had and still does have blistering pace. Something Anthony Horgan just doesn't have at all. It is with a shudder that I see he is in the training squad to go to NZ/Aus as cover for John Kelly. Talk about Tweedledum and Tweedledee!!

Neither of these guys is good enough for the Irish team IMHO. They are solid (very solid indeed) in the tackle and can play a limited game and for their province that's good enough because their province's pack usually dominates the opposition. But the Irish team has to rely on some threat from the backs because the pack is NOT good enough at international level to dominate its opposition.

Bowe would be preferable to either of them. At least he has a little bit of pace. And he'll improve.

TarfHead

Snickers Man wrote:

Bowe would be preferable to either of them. At least he has a little bit of pace. And he'll improve.

I agree. What's the point of taking Anthony Horgan to the SH ? He's not likely to become international class between now and RWC 2007 while Bowe still has potential. All Bowe needs at this stage of his development is a demonstration of EOS's confidence in him.

I think we can be sure that Trimble/Hickie, D'Arcy, O Driscoll & Shane Horgan are not going to play 240 minutes each over 15 days - EOS will need to use the bench and Anthony Horgan is not an impact player.

daveirl

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Teg Veece

If Ireland are going to live up to expectations then their going to have to change coach and captain. Simple as that. It's a bit extreme but ever since the EOS/BOD relationship blossomed, Ireland's passion has been found to be distinctly lacking. The squad has buckey loads of skill but seem to lack what's needed in the top two inches and it's the job of the coach and captain to sort that out.
The only time I have ever seen the current Irish squad play to anywhere near their full potential was in the second half against France during the 6N. It was as if they knew that they had to perform or be humiliated. And it seemed as if Eddies rigid and one dimensional gameplans were thrown out the window. It would be incredible if they could take that mindset and apply it to every game.

EdgarAllenPoo

Maybe I'm alone in saying this but is it time for Paul O'Connell to become captain?

daveirl

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EdgarAllenPoo

My point is that I think O'Connell is more deserving than BOD plus if giving the captaincy to someone else doesn't make a difference than why not put it on someone other than O'Driscoll.

daveirl

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wingnut

I agree, I think BOD was made caption soley on his playing ability with no attention payed to his leadership skill, or lack thereof.

EdgarAllenPoo

wingnut wrote:

I agree, I think BOD was made caption soley on his playing ability with no attention payed to his leadership skill, or lack thereof.

I think O'Connell has both of those qualities.

daveirl

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EdgarAllenPoo

daveirl wrote:

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That's the point I'm trying to make, if there's no measurable difference then why not give it to people other than BOD.

daveirl

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LegacyUser

Personally I think that O'Driscoll should remain as captain.

I can see why some people would prefer O'Connell because of his immense performances over the last couple of years, but IMO the way things are at the moment is a good balance.

If you look at O'Connell being interviewed, he comes across as quite a thoughtful and deliberate thinker when he's speaking. Look at his quote after the Leinster-Munster game, that Munster hadn't won anything yet, and that destiny wasn't going to win them the trophy. Excellent perspective after a euphoric victory, and that's the sort of rationale you want from some people when everyone's on a high. Another example was Paul's appearance on the Late Late last week (don't even get me started on Kenny!)

On the other hand BOD is a quicker talker, who also is very thoughful, but seems to be a little more comfortable in the public eye. While they both obviously prefer to do their talking on the pitch, O'Connell would seem to be quite happy if there was no media/publicity circus around the game, and he could just get on with playing rugby. I think that O'Driscoll is better suited to whipping people up in a frenzy in the 5/10 minutes before kick-off, and O'Connell's performances don't really need any speeches. It's a perfect partnership, and as Foley said before, the captaincy is really only taking the toss, because when you've got players with the experience of O'Connell, Horgan, O'Gara & even S. Easterby etc on the team everyone has their part to play and you can bet they all throw in their tuppence if they feel the need.

A good team has its talkers/doers and its doers/talkers (if that makes any sense!), and ideally you'd like a balance of both.

kermitdfrog

If Ireland are going to live up to expectations then their going to have to change coach and captain. Simple as that. It's a bit extreme but ever since the EOS/BOD relationship blossomed, Ireland's passion has been found to be distinctly lacking. The squad has buckey loads of skill but seem to lack what's needed in the top two inches and it's the job of the coach and captain to sort that out.

Am I the only one who finds talk like this gag-worthy - "passion" is lacking, spirit etc. Yes, they are important but way way over rated, usually by people subscribing to media-Munster steretypes instead of thinking for themselves. The same people would probably reckon that the Irish and Munster teams are the most passionate rugby teams of all - yet we've beaten the All Blacks how many times? Oh yeah, once between them Sometimes passion will win out, most times better skill will - a more skillful team with plenty of passion will nearly always beat the more passionate, less skilled one. Besides, if you think that those players havent given their all for the last few years, that the joy at the final whistle at Twickenham wasnt genuine, that pain on their faces after November wasnt real, that their determination in the 2nd half in paris wasnt genuine, I suggest you try telling them that to their face and see what response you get. Passion is used as a reason for failures by those that have neither the knowledge nor the understanding to explain them.

The only time I have ever seen the current Irish squad play to anywhere near their full potential was in the second half against France during the 6N. It was as if they knew that they had to perform or be humiliated. And it seemed as if Eddies rigid and one dimensional gameplans were thrown out the window. It would be incredible if they could take that mindset and apply it to every game.

a) Only time? What about SA last season (full of your precious "passion" if not skill)? Or Wales and England games in 2004?
b) "Eddies rigid and one dimensional gameplans were thrown out the window" - really? What, exactly, changed in the second half, tactics and gameplan wise? Please do tell. Or is this an opinion without basis, repeating more cliches about that game? Was the gameplan so different in Twickenham, where we played some stunning rugby?

Listen, I'm not saying EOS is perfect. I'm far from his biggest fan. He has made some massive errors (not least the entire 2005 6N season, which, in hindsight, was one big judgement call gone to pot). But if you're going to criticise him or his tactics, dont resort to myths, cliches or repeated media spin.




Also, I agree 100% with bruachain on the POC/BOD as captain issue. In addition to the media duties, the main consideration when picking a captain is down to on-field influence and decision making. Tell me, what do the "POC for captain" people think would be different if POC was made captain? The only difference on the pitch would be that POC would make the decisions, and seeing how, as pack leader, he has a huge amount of say anyway, and, when it comes to decisions on penalties etc BOD and POC both tend to make them as well as discuss them together, the difference would be neglible. BOD's decision making has been fine thus far, as has his communication with the ref of late. POC's inspiration comes from his performances and the respect of his peers - this isn't going to change. BOD and POC have a very complimentary relationship on field, almost co-captain rather than captain and vice captain, and it works. But of course some people dont think about these things and just think "POC for Captain!" as a knee jerk reaction.

Scootay

It might surprise people to know that this year was viewed as a transition year by EOS and the Irish team. In the 2005 6N Ireland were the team that kicked most and passed least of all the teams. This year they set out to change the way they played and in the 2006 6N they passed most and kicked least. That, in my mind, does away with any talk of the backs being underused.

There was never a case, in any 6N game, of EOS's tactics being thrown away. The tactics against England were pretty specific but the players always have to act on where they see a gap or a lack of gap.

Whatever about the possible merits of POC stepping in as captain there is no reason at all to remove BOD from the role.

spanner

kermitdfrog wrote:

As for EOS smotering the backline, I wouldnt agree - I think he lost his way in the 2005 season, no doubt, after some amazing rugby in 04, but we're finding our feet again - look at the England game from this years 6N ( I watched it last night) and some of the backline play and play in general was phenomenal. Things don't change overnight (it took Leinster half a season to realise our potential this year under Cheika), and Ireland's gameplan has only begin to shift since the Autumn.

I think the 6Ns this year flattered us alot and it definately took the sting alot of people who would have been baying for EOS to go. Our backline seems to be be based alot on individual plays with some brillant runs but not connecting up in any kind of free flowing movement, Look at the Italy game from this years 6Ns, that was some dreadful play by the backline and the rest of the games apart from the english one where quite average and certainly did not look like a world class backline

Again, watch the England game.

I think we were very lucky in that game and some of the mistakes that england made were atrocious.
I think we need to get rid of EOS and bring back the creator of all our sucess, Warren Gatland (or Neil Ruddock)

spanner

If Ireland is to improve I think we need to get away from the forwards do their thing and the backs do their thing. there is very little interplay.

also I think the back row for the international really underpreformed. the likes of Leamy and Wallace were playing some excellent rugby down in Limerick but were failing to really make a mark on the irish team, I hope its just a matter that they need time to get used to international rugby but their really needs to be alot more bite from the back row. I really rate JOC very highly and he really brings his game up for the international matches.

daveirl

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[Jackass]

We've a squad full of World class players, our provences are doing excellent in both domestic and european competition, with 3 of the top 4, including the winners of the celtic league and 2 of the top 4, including the winners of the European cup...

At international level, in the last seven 6 nations, we've been second 4 times and third 3 times, with 2 triple crowns.

In the space of those seven competitions, i think it's fair to say our provences, who were very much underdogs to most English and French clubs, have evolved to being champions of Europe and having 2 out of the top 4 sides.

I don't think there has been much evolution in the national side, pretty static, not a major difference in results every year...1 year the results will be: wins over Scotland, Wales, Italy and a lose to England and France. Finish 3rd

The next year Beat Scotland, Wales, Italy and one of England/France. Finish Second. (and the odd time this will result in a triple crown)

Any result outside of these defines a extra sucsesful or a failure of a season.

On top of these aswell, we will have every couple of years, in both summer tours and autumn internationals, a promosing, yet brave, defeat against a southern Hempisphere side and we will take a hiding from a southern hempisphere side. (This tour we will have 1 brave defeat but will be promising for the world cup :rolleyes:)

It's been the exact same for 7 years, we've never won anything and we're going through the motions despite the progress our provences have made in that time.

My point is, if we had gotten rid of EOS maybe 2 years ago (or 3) and were REALLY lucky and got a TOP coach (im talking best case scenario here) with the squad we have, it would be realistic to talk about winning the world cup.

[edit] also, I agree with Dave that anything less than semi-final would show the complete lack of progress we have made, but I feel it will be another quater-final finish after we stop patting ourselves on the back for overturning the argies in a close game and running the hosts close in the groups...kind of as if we've already exceeded expectations. Then don't show up in the quaters and take a absolute hiding. Same this world cup as last world cup.

Crash

I swear to God if we have another last minute win against the Argentinians in a game we really should win by a margin, I'm going to cry.

Diamondmaker

Dub Guy hits exactly my feelings when I posted this thread....

Any way lets let the guys show what the are capable of next weekend and lets get excited/depressed thereafter.............mmmm food for thought.