1/2 cashgame hand

hoooooooot

right so ive about €130 in front of me, its €1/2 pl and ive Ac4c on the button, several limpers(6or7) i limp in bb raises to €7 all limpers call i call, pot roughly €50, flop comes Qc8c4s, raiser checks aggressive player in seat 4 bets pot another guy pushes for €110 comes to me whats my play here? the preflop raiser to my left didn look interested but was fairly sure the initial pot-raiser would call as he has a deep stack

ianmc38

Push in an absolute instant.

opr

ianmc38 wrote:

Push in an absolute instant.

In less if possible

cardshark202

Im all in.

hoooooooot

main reason it wasn an automatic push 4 me was my bankroll was short, i thought bout it and pushed though initial raiser called wit Q9 and reraiser had AQ, 9 on turn big stack got the lot!! lol

ditpoker

!!??!?! are people advocating pushing with ace high??? i know he has a draw to the nut flush but it is for his entire stack. Equally i'm not paying 7 euro to see a flop with a4.... for me its a fold preflop, and its a fold post flop.

EDIT:

hooooooot wrote:

main reason it wasn an automatic push 4 me was my bankroll was short

this is another reason for not messing with a4. I usually sit into 1/2 games with 100-150, knowing that such a short stack decreases my hand range...

fuzzbox

ditpoker wrote:

!!??!?! are people advocating pushing with ace high??? i know he has a draw to the nut flush but it is for his entire stack. Equally i'm not paying 7 euro to see a flop with a4.... for me its a fold preflop, and its a fold post flop.

Dude, its a cash game, not a tourney.

Hectorjelly

ditpoker wrote:

!!??!?! are people advocating pushing with ace high??? i know he has a draw to the nut flush but it is for his entire stack. Equally i'm not paying 7 euro to see a flop with a4.... for me its a fold preflop, and its a fold post flop.

he has a pair and a flush draw so he has a strong holding, however even if he had the lone flush draw he should be calling here. This is absolutley basic poker 101

ianmc38

ditpoker wrote:

!!??!?! are people advocating pushing with ace high??? i know he has a draw to the nut flush but it is for his entire stack. Equally i'm not paying 7 euro to see a flop with a4.... for me its a fold preflop, and its a fold post flop.

EDIT:
this is another reason for not messing with a4. I usually sit into 1/2 games with 100-150, knowing that such a short stack decreases my hand range...

Dude he has a pair and the nut flush draw. I have wet dreams about flops like that.

hoooooooot

ditpoker wrote:

!!??!?! are people advocating pushing with ace high??? i know he has a draw to the nut flush but it is for his entire stack. Equally i'm not paying 7 euro to see a flop with a4.... for me its a fold preflop, and its a fold post flop.

folding on the flop was possibly the right play but with 2€ already called it cost €5 more to see a flop wit a suited ace with a pot of €50!! automatic call preflop i felt

ditpoker

fuzzbox wrote:

Dude, its a cash game, not a tourney.

cash game or tourney, if he has 500+ in his pocket it may aswell be on the table, if he only has 130 then he only has 130 and it is for his entire stack. just because it is a cash game doesn't mean you have to throw away 120 on a draw.... surely there has to be a better time to stick your chips in???

hoooooooot

ditpoker wrote:

!!??!?! are people advocating pushing with ace high??? i know he has a draw to the nut flush but it is for his entire stack. Equally i'm not paying 7 euro to see a flop with a4.... for me its a fold preflop, and its a fold post flop.

folding on the flop was possibly the right play but with 2€ already called it cost €5 more to see a flop on the button wit a suited ace with a pot of €50!! automatic call preflop i felt

fuzzbox

ditpoker wrote:

cash game or tourney, if he has 500+ in his pocket it may aswell be on the table, if he only has 130 then he only has 130 and it is for his entire stack. just because it is a cash game doesn't mean you have to throw away 120 on a draw.... surely there has to be a better time to stick your chips in???

dit .... really - this is pretty basic.
Hero has 9 club outs + 2 4 outs and quite possibly 3 Ace outs (although far from certain about the aces).
Hero is getting action from 2 players, and the pot is already big.

Hero is getting fantastic odds for his money. Hero probably has a 50% chance (or more) to win the hand, and he is getting at least 2:1 for his money. What better opportunities do you want?

5starpool

ditpoker wrote:

cash game or tourney, if he has 500+ in his pocket it may aswell be on the table, if he only has 130 then he only has 130 and it is for his entire stack. just because it is a cash game doesn't mean you have to throw away 120 on a draw.... surely there has to be a better time to stick your chips in???

Than getting about 3-1 on a less than 2-1 shot? (not including the 4's or possible A's as outs)

Being a student has probably cloded your thinking here

As has been stated so often, if the 130 means that much to you don't sit at the table in the first place. How could anyone not call to all this action?

Hectorjelly

ditpoker wrote:

cash game or tourney, if he has 500+ in his pocket it may aswell be on the table, if he only has 130 then he only has 130 and it is for his entire stack. just because it is a cash game doesn't mean you have to throw away 120 on a draw.... surely there has to be a better time to stick your chips in???

wtf are you talking about

lets say he flopped the nut flush draw, 100 euro in the pot and someone goes all in for a 100. As you should know he will win 1/3 of the time (aprox). So by calling here he wont make any money, 1/3 of the time he wins 300, 2/3 of the time he ends with 0. 1/3 of 300 and 2/3 of 0 = 100 (which is whathe had to call)

In the case above the pot is 210 and its 110 to him, so even just with the lone flush draw he should call. 1/3 of the time he will win 430 and 2/3 of the time 0, this means he gets €143 back in expectation by calling. Also what that means is that by folding you are giving up €43 in equity. Considering he has only bought in for 100 odd this is a HUGE mistake and there is no way that it can be justified.

Add to that the fact that he has a pair as well, so his equity is much higher. He will be 50 50 with any other 1 pair hand.

ditpoker

i know what you're saying about the outs and the odds... but when the money goes in you have to know you are behind... and at best as you say you have a 50% chance of winning, so its a coinflip... possibly being a student i dont wanna stick my 100+ on the line in coin flip situations preferring rather to stick my money in as a clear favourite.

Hectorjelly

ditpoker wrote:

i know what you're saying about the outs and the odds... but when the money goes in you have to know you are behind... and at best as you say you have a 50% chance of winning, so its a coinflip... possibly being a student i dont wanna stick my 100+ on the line in coin flip situations preferring rather to stick my money in as a clear favourite.

dont play poker then

El Stuntman

Hectorjelly wrote:

dont play poker then

ah sweet elitism

opr

Guys come on your giving students a bad name . . . as the lads said this is very basic stuff.

Oh and you should know by now as i found out the hard way the guys in this post are who you should be listening and learning from .... 95% of the time they are right ..... sorry no ones right all the time

opr

ditpoker wrote:

i know what you're saying about the outs and the odds... but when the money goes in you have to know you are behind... and at best as you say you have a 50% chance of winning, so its a coinflip... possibly being a student i dont wanna stick my 100+ on the line in coin flip situations preferring rather to stick my money in as a clear favourite.

But DIT its a coin flip were someone is offering you 3-1 on your money for that coin flip ..... in the long run who wins ??

If its about the money you shouldn't be sitting at these games.

Hectorjelly

El Stuntman wrote:

ah sweet elitism

well hes welcome in my games any time, but if he wants to play poker successfully then he might want to rethink his beliefs. Is it elitist of me to point out glaring mistakes that will cost him any chance of doing well?

ditpoker

Hectorjelly wrote:

wtf are you talking about

lets say he flopped the nut flush draw, 100 euro in the pot and someone goes all in for a 100. As you should know he will win 1/3 of the time (aprox). So by calling here he wont make any money, 1/3 of the time he wins 300, 2/3 of the time he ends with 0. 1/3 of 300 and 2/3 of 0 = 100 (which is whathe had to call)

In the case above the pot is 210 and its 110 to him, so even just with the lone flush draw he should call. 1/3 of the time he will win 430 and 2/3 of the time 0, this means he gets €143 back in expectation by calling. Also what that means is that by folding you are giving up €43 in equity. Considering he has only bought in for 100 odd this is a HUGE mistake and there is no way that it can be justified.

Add to that the fact that he has a pair as well, so his equity is much higher. He will be 50 50 with any other 1 pair hand.

i agree with what you are saying about the odds of it etc... and calling is a fine play if you have chips to do it with... but i, and i think hoooot too, would be better folding here as it is at best a coin flip to win it. Given that poker is situational, then in this hand its a fine calll if you have the $$$, but if you are playing with only 130 then that situation dictates that he fold, as if this is one of the 2/3 times he loses he wont be at the table for the 1/3 times he wins.

For me, when i play 1/2 it is with discretionary income, either from another poker win or something. i sit down with approx 100 that i know i can afford to lose, but i am aware that i havent turned up with 500+ in my wallet and therefor my situation dictates that i have to play tighter than tight.

Hectorjelly

Poker isnt about winning hand really, its about winning money in the long run. There isnt that much of an edge in poker, and its not possible to be successfull if you are passing up edges like this. If you cant afford to lose the 100 in front if you then dont play.

ditpoker

Don't get me wrong... i've learnt most about poker reading threads from HJ and MrPillowTalk etc and i'm getting the impression that there is little or no support for folding here.

Out of interest, if the same hand occurs in a tournement do you make the same play? Given that if you do bust on this one hand its game set and match?

ianmc38

Fold this hand if you don't like money.

ditpoker

Hectorjelly wrote:

If you cant afford to lose the 100 in front if you then dont play.

5cent/10cent on tribeca doesn't do it for me anymore, and the fitz don't do 25c/50cent games so i gotta keep making that leap of faith!

fuzzbox

ditpoker wrote:

i know what you're saying about the outs and the odds... but when the money goes in you have to know you are behind... and at best as you say you have a 50% chance of winning, so its a coinflip... possibly being a student i dont wanna stick my 100+ on the line in coin flip situations preferring rather to stick my money in as a clear favourite.

Its not about having the best hand when the money goes in, its about winning money.

if you have 33 on a JcTc4s board, and I have KcQc. You have the best hand, but I will win the hand much more often than you will.

If you have 4h5d on a 3d6c7c board, and I have 8c9c .. then not only do you have the best hand right now, but you have the nuts, yet I will win the hand more often than you will.

Poker is not about getting money in with the current best hand, its about getting favourable money making situations, and taking them.

ditpoker

ianmc38 wrote:

Fold this hand if you don't like money.

BUT i do like money!

I've only started playing cash games in the last month or so, i pretty much have been a tournement player to date so its hard to get out of the mentality of if you bust you're gone... HJ, if this hand came up in the IPT final, between yourself and two other chip leaders would the fold be marginally more acceptable?

hoooooooot

ditpoker wrote:

Don't get me wrong... i've learnt most about poker reading threads from HJ and MrPillowTalk etc and i'm getting the impression that there is little or no support for folding here.

Out of interest, if the same hand occurs in a tournement do you make the same play? Given that if you do bust on this one hand its game set and match?

no i think its a fold in a tournament situation personally, although i said my bankroll was short it was not my last €130

fuzzbox

I wouldnt fold this in a tourney either.
I would much prefer to be moving all-in with it, rather than calling, but I would play it.

cardshark202

ditpoker wrote:

i agree with what you are saying about the odds of it etc... and calling is a fine play if you have chips to do it with... but i, and i think hoooot too, would be better folding here as it is at best a coin flip to win it. Given that poker is situational, then in this hand its a fine calll if you have the $$$, but if you are playing with only 130 then that situation dictates that he fold, as if this is one of the 2/3 times he loses he wont be at the table for the 1/3 times he wins.

For me, when i play 1/2 it is with discretionary income, either from another poker win or something. i sit down with approx 100 that i know i can afford to lose, but i am aware that i havent turned up with 500+ in my wallet and therefor my situation dictates that i have to play tighter than tight.

I would advise that you never sit in the 1/2 games again until you are comfortable playing it.

Hectorjelly

The only difference in tournaments is that you can mass marginal situations in which you would call in a cash game - this isnt marginal.

cardshark202

ditpoker wrote:

BUT i do like money!

I've only started playing cash games in the last month or so, i pretty much have been a tournement player to date so its hard to get out of the mentality of if you bust you're gone... HJ, if this hand came up in the IPT final, between yourself and two other chip leaders would the fold be marginally more acceptable?

I would still call unless the prize structure dictated otherwise.

5starpool

Cash game / Tourney. As said this is not marginal so busting is irrelevant unless at a pivitol point in the game. Clear call either case. This should have nothing to do with what you can/can't afford to lose. This is to do with how big a margin you need to play. Reggie for example needs only a 0.00000001% edge to play for all his chips but I need slightly more than that. This example is plenty though.

ianmc38

I actually had an almost identical hand with a slab of concrete from UCD in the SE a few months ago. I had Ad4d. The flop was Kd8d4c. There was about 50 in the pot and he potted it on the button. I check raised all-in for another 100 or so. He folded KQo face up. Lol.

RoundTower

Fold preflop. Push the flop, or go to the cinema instead of the cardroom, you can probably see 20 films for €130 getting student price.

PiperT

ditpoker wrote:

i agree with what you are saying about the odds of it etc... and calling is a fine play if you have chips to do it with... but i, and i think hoooot too, would be better folding here as it is at best a coin flip to win it. Given that poker is situational, then in this hand its a fine calll if you have the $$$, but if you are playing with only 130 then that situation dictates that he fold, as if this is one of the 2/3 times he loses he wont be at the table for the 1/3 times he wins.

For me, when i play 1/2 it is with discretionary income, either from another poker win or something. i sit down with approx 100 that i know i can afford to lose, but i am aware that i havent turned up with 500+ in my wallet and therefor my situation dictates that i have to play tighter than tight.

If thats your thinking then you should not be playing $1/$2 in the first instance. If you take on board the advice being offered by the other guys on this thread and move to smaller stakes, you might actually make some $$$. Its dangerous to sit down for one session with your entire bankroll, you are defensive of your $$$ and unwilling to make plays which is a losing strategy imho. At best you may get some premium hands paid off after hours and hours of play.

jbravado

ianmc38 wrote:

I actually had an almost identical hand with a slab of concrete from UCD in the SE a few months ago. .

I didnt think Ucd had such a player.

melopeat

Floding pre-flop on the button here really isnt an option for me, considering you have 2 in the pot and the value is good. I also feel that the call on the flop is the right play, your getting the pot odds. I wouldnt have played it much different myself.

ianmc38

jbravado wrote:

I didnt think Ucd had such a player.

Him and his buddy. They're both "professionals", sitting waiting for JJ+ and AQ+ all night. Rocks is an understatement.

hotspur

I think you're all being very harsh on the poor students. I would have no problem folding there in their situation of only having a small amount to play a night's poker with. Someone who is that short in money playing 1/2 obviously isn't playing to rake in the bucks, so it's fine for them to give up a +EV position if it'll cost them their stack the majority of the time.

EV isn't everything, if it were then I presume all of you would put €50k on a coinflip to win €55k, but you probably wouldn't and your reasons for not are the exact same as the ones given for not calling in this situation, just the absolute amounts are different.

Incidentally you really have to try to figure out what others players are likely to have here and I have folded the nut flush draw many a time when I felt that someone else was on the flush draw too if that fact removed the +EV.

ROONEY_DIVES

Agree with everything Hotspur said above. Personally hand discussion bores me so ive no opinion on the hand but if the guy wants to bring all his €100 to the table instead of "watching 20 films" (10 if he brings company) then im all for it, and best of luck to him, hope he wins $500 and gets to watch 43 films

cardshark202

If you take poker somewhat seriously and you play to win money, you call this in an instant. If you play for fun and think of it as "good value for your €100", then you can fold and wait til you flop quads and hope everyone at the table gets it all in with underpairs.

Hectorjelly

I think the last two posts are irresponsiblly incorrect. If your playing at a level in which you cant afford to commit your chips in a hand like this, then you need to move down or you will end up being a losing player. If you are happy to be a losing player then I dont see why you would be posting hands on a message board like.

edit to note that I wasnt referring to cardshark obv

ditpoker

I'd play at a lower level if such games were available, but 1/2 would appear to be the cheapest game in town. Primarily i play for fun, i understand that if i was to play for the purpose of winning money alone that sticking 100 into a 1/2 cash game isn't the smartest move. I am trying to combine a small budget with teh circumstances of games available to me, as such i must adapt my game. The play in question i can make the call playing 5c/10c but those games don't exist in live play. Given my style of play (in 1/2 cash games) i wouldn't be in this situation as a4 is a preflop fold for me at this level. To call the post flop bet you say is basic abc poker, but i would argue that given the circumstances of my budget i have to rely on very basic ABC poker, which would preclude calling preflop with a4 from any position.

RE 'you shouldn't play 1/2 if you cant afford to make this call' i agree/disagree. Obviously the merits of bankroll management are important, but equally playing the conservative style has been profitable for me to date so there is merits to playing within your means, regardless of the level.

Ste05

I agree with HJ here, this forum is to improve people's technical Poker abilities and to say that it's OK to make a bad move because of the money involved is not a good idea.

It all comes down to BR management, and I'm actually suprised by Hotspur's comments, seeing as your knowledge of Problem Gambling etc., I can't see how you can recommend Bad Poker Play as a good past time..

ROONEY_DIVES

Look, some people like going to restaurants, cinema, theatre, fly fishing, playing tiddlywinks on a jetski...... i dont care what it is .....if a guy wants to bring 150 into the fitz to spend an evening playing poker, fine. if he wants to post a hand up here for advice on the hand , fine also. i sincerely doubt the advice he's looking for is the 'shouldnt be playing above your limits' or 'shouldnt play if the € means too much.'. He obv looking for advice on the hand itself and the other advie (whilst correct, factual and relevant) is not what he's looking for.

Anyway this is a forum not the poker police, just relax.

ditpoker

cardshark202 from another thread wrote:

I fold to the raise though because it's too big a percentage of my stack regardless of the pot odds.

this sums up what i'm saying re folding the a4 with nut flush draw....

sikes

hotspur wrote:

EV isn't everything, if it were then I presume all of you would put €50k on a coinflip to win €55k, but you probably wouldn't and your reasons for not are the exact same as the ones given for not calling in this situation, just the absolute amounts are different.

not many players would do a once off, however if you were to offer them an unlimited amount of fips with the same odds everyone would.

Ste05

ROONEY_DIVES wrote:

Look, some people like going to restaurants, cinema, theatre, fly fishing, playing tiddlywinks on a jetski...... i dont care what it is .....if a guy wants to bring 150 into the fitz to spend an evening playing poker, fine.

That's all grand too, I agree, but the advice that has been given here, is quite simply correct.

People can spend their money anyway they want, and that obviously includes sitting down in the Fitz and playing with scared money, but you shouldn't get advice about how to do it here.

cardshark202

ditpoker wrote:

this sums up what i'm saying re folding the a4 with nut flush draw....

Please explain lol.

EDIT: If you understood that post at all you wouldn't repost it here. When I say its too big a percentage I mean that his stack size won't allow him to play the hand optimally on all streets.