Just a few thoughts....

Bodhidharma

I have been studying Buddhism sporadically for the past year, basically i see it as a philosophy in life, not as a religion, and i have a few questions that have come up.

This sounds stupid but i'd like to know. Why is it that Buddha is depicted as being very fat, is this a Chinese image? And if so why is it so?

The second is a more serious question. I know that Buddha talked about the different levels of life, Human, Animal, Gods (is it?) all suffering, but when i look at animals they seem to me to have very few attachments. They just live. Where do they feature in the Buddhist scheme of things?

My final question is about Enlightenment. Is Nirvana eternal? Once you reach that stage does it last forever? That is something i find a little implausible, like Heavan. Nirvana is reached after many lives, but why does the Buddha assume that the universe has a memory?

I would be grateful if i could get some answers to these questions (sorry if i'm not articulating myself properly).

Goodshape

Bodhidharma wrote:

This sounds stupid but i'd like to know. Why is it that Buddha is depicted as being very fat, is this a Chinese image? And if so why is it so?

The fat 'laughing buddha' is a depiction of a chinese monk, Hotei. Wikipedia has more information - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laughing_Buddha

Asiaprod

Bodhidharma wrote:

I have been studying Buddhism sporadically for the past year, basically i see it as a philosophy in life, not as a religion, and i have a few questions that have come up.

Goodshape answered question one for you, I will have a go at two and three.

The second is a more serious question. I know that Buddha talked about the different levels of life, Human, Animal, Gods (is it?) all suffering, but when i look at animals they seem to me to have very few attachments. They just live. Where do they feature in the Buddhist scheme of things?

Buddhism expounds more of a sense of kinship with the animal world, a more intimate feeling of community with all that lives, than is found in Western religious thought. And this is not a matter of sentiment, but is rooted in the total Buddhist concept of life. It is an essential of the all-embracing philosophy which neglects no aspect of experience. Humans and animals are not different in sentience. Buddhism does not draw a metaphysical line between humans and other animals. Animals are not to be classified as goods. They should be treated as sentient beings. Animals may be expected to work, but they are either wild or they are part of the community. Traditionally, it is not acceptable to sacrifice animals for human convenience nor to kill them because they have become "uneconomic". The measure of an animal is not its utility to humans or the benefit to humans that it provides. Animals exist in their own right. The fact that we are animals ourselves with nerves and pain and fear of death enables us to know what it is like for other animals. This raises the obvious issues of eating meat, experimenting on animals and animals as fashion accessories and clothing. This is the hard one to answer. As times change, so to do attitudes. I eat meat and I wear cloths made from animal products. Yet I still consider myself to be a good Buddhist. I think the answer is really down to each individual to make their own choice and accept the consequences.

My final question is about Enlightenment. Is Nirvana eternal? Once you reach that stage does it last forever? That is something i find a little implausible, like Heavan. Nirvana is reached after many lives, but why does the Buddha assume that the universe has a memory?

Very good question. Don't know. I have thought about this and have come to two possible answers.
1. Yes, based on my current human-based understanding, Nirvana is the ultimate goal.
2. If and when I reach that goal, I may well find out that it is indeed only another step on the path.
Therefore, since I cannot possibly know if no 2 is correct, I will concentrate on attaining number 1, and then deal with what comes after it. I think Buddhism is in many ways like a game. You must pass each level in order to proceed to the next level. You have no idea what the next level is until you complete the first level. Rather than waste time and energy contemplating on future levels, use that time and energy to complete the first level.
I am not sure what you are asking when you say why does the Buddha assume that the universe has a memory? Remember that the Buddha told us to use his teachings to exceed his understanding. Nobody claims that he has attained everything. He attained enlightenment in this world. He cannot really comment on any other existences since he was in this world at the time. Maybe we all pass on and find a new teacher with a new set of directives. Who knows. Lets get through level one first, otherwise we will never find out.

Bodhidharma

Thanks for the replys so far.

In regard to animals, my question is, if we are fundamentally the same (as i believe we are), does that mean that they are able to attain enlightenment? I always thought they were supposed to be lower down on the scale of things?

The notion of the universe having a memory is an important one for me. In order to become the Buddha, he had to gradually progress through a series of lifetimes until he reached the stage of being Buddha. Now, i have to question the notion that a life, spirit, call it what you like, adds up your good and bad points over an infinite nmber of lifespans.

What would be the point? You may say to attain enlightenment, but this too insists that the universe DOES have a memory, and that there IS a point to life itself. This i find hard to understand.

I hope you follow what i am trying to say. Basically my question is, Does life having a meaning or a goal. (My question is rhetorical obviously, although if anyone wants to have a bash, be my guest)

Thanks

MeditationMom

Quote:
My final question is about Enlightenment. Is Nirvana eternal? Once you reach that stage does it last forever? That is something i find a little implausible, like Heavan. Nirvana is reached after many lives, but why does the Buddha assume that the universe has a memory?

Very good question. Don't know. I have thought about this and have come to two possible answers.
1. Yes, based on my current human-based understanding, Nirvana is the ultimate goal.
2. If and when I reach that goal, I may well find out that it is indeed only another step on the path.

Therefore, since I cannot possibly know if no 2 is correct, I will concentrate on attaining number 1, and then deal with what comes after it.

This is wise, old, excellent advice for Bodhidarma. Asiaprod - you are something else, wonderful thinking! But why do you imply that the two answers exclude each other. Maybe you didn't mean to. Both answers seem to be true at the same time. Would you not bother trying to reach Nirvana, if it were not the ultimate goal?

Nirvana is the ultimate goal and it is only the beginning. Imagine yourself sitting in a movie. Lots of love and warstories. You are sitting in your chair, totally involved, laughing and sobbing, rooting for the good guys, swearing at the bad guys. At some point you get so exhausted, you turn to your neighbour saying " I am exhausted, I don't think I can take it anymore. I am suffering." Your strangely peaceful and serene neighbour (Buddha) says: "I hear you. And I can tell you that your suffering can be stopped. ( He tells you of the eightfold path etc...) You sit there now and try to practise all this while still watching the movie. You inquire from your neighbour how he knows that his method works and how he can be so serene. He tells you it is because he has reached Nirvana." All of a sudden you see him laughing at the joke in the movie and a tear rolling down his cheek as in the movie a child is brutally beaten. At this point you are quite confused and intrigued with your neighbour. "What is Nirvana?" you ask him. He looks at you, knowing he will not be able to describe this, but he tries and explains to you about cameramen, and movies, being nothing but fast moving images, and if you could get your mind still enough you could catch the gap. He says he has been in the gap between the pictures. He knows it is just a movie, therefore the movie doesn't have the same hold on him as you. He is also in pain, old age, his leg hurts, but he is not suffering. And most of the time in the movie he seems to have his eyes closed and is sitting there in peace - missing most of the movie. (Once you know the sun burns you, why leave the shade of the tree.)

This gap between the pictures is Nirvana. All disappears - and out of that great Nothing - everything again appears.

You wonder why he is in the movie. To be of service to you out of his compassion. To enjoy the beauty and the mystery of existence. To enjoy the movie, even his "suffering". To be with you.

I am so bad at quoteing and reciting sources - it all lives in my heart - but do you rememeber the enlightened master who was asked by his disciples what is the difference before and after enlightenment? He said something to the effect of "nothing" or "no difference" or "same". Before enlightenment I carried water, and after enlightnement I carry water." And with that he proceeded up the hill, carrying his water buckets.

After enlightnement carrying water simply becomes a miracle, unexplainable. So after Nirvana you really have lost all knowledge, but you know what is untrue. That you can try to explain.

Is Nirvana eternal?

Nirvana has no beginning and no end. So reaching Nirvana, is "meeting" or "seeing and remembering" that in you which is eternal, infinite, that has always been and always will be, that is your source and your true being. Strangely enough, you have to make the greatest effort for this but only after you exhaust yourself -( as for example with a Koan) - is it revealed to you. By the grace of God - in RC way of thinking. Remember the Kingdom of God is within - just another word for Nirvana.

Nirvana is reached after many lives

Maybe this life, for you! Don't get lazy.

We are all naked underneath our clothes. (Nakedness being a metaphor for enlightnement) We are all enlightenend already underneath our "heavy clothing" or "unenlightenment." It doesn't matter ( although, I am not sure Buddhist would agree with this ) how far or close you are to enlightenment - how heavily, or lightly you are dressed. Bad Karma means you are putting more and more clothes on for whatever reason - fashion, cold weather, war, you name it. Good Karma means you are losing clothes. Maybe they have become a burden to you, maybe they are wearing out, maybe you are giving them away. This game of Karma can go on forever, but there is no reason why a heavily dressed person cannot become naked before a lightly dressed.
Just rip those clothes off - of course you have to lose your fear of death.;) After that, after you have reached "Nakedness", so to speak :rolleyes: "Nirvana" - now you can go around teaching people not to fuss so much about their clothes, but try to encourage them to discover what's underneath, give them methods how to lose the laundry. Most people what nothing of it. There is fear, laziness, envy, too much attachment to "clothes", thoughts, belief systems, religions etc

So after Nirvana, yes, you go back to wearing clothes ( in other words, having thoughts, relating to the world around you even though you know it is "just a movie"- also with this comes so much compassion towards "others"- they are no more "other" - Asiaprod, just because you would put your clothes back on would you not want to discover your "nakedness" anyhow, instead of spending your life thinking you are your cargopants or leatherjacket?;)

The notion of the universe having a memory is an important one for me.

Interesting it is important to you, even though you say you don't understand it. Do you love this idea? Does it ring true?

If you threw a stone into a quiet lake, the ripples would go out in a circle and touch everyhting on their way to the shore. In that sense the lake has a memory of the stone being thrown in, and the event has consequences. Is the lake changed after this event? There is a stone at the bottom of the lake but the lake has returned to its original smooth quiet surface self.
The Universe has a "memory" of every movement in it - as all is connected and every event changes the Universe as a whole. But it is not memory in the sense we use the word memory.

As you are thinking about this in the context of Karma, and if we want to get back to our methaphor of "clothing" yes, there is a physical record of how many clothes you are wearing, when you put them on and why, which ones you have taken off etc. , but does it matter? It's time for a swim!

Asiaprod

MeditationMom wrote:

This is wise, old, excellent advice for Bodhidarma. Asiaprod - you are something else, wonderful thinking! But why do you imply that the two answers exclude each other. Maybe you didn't mean to. Both answers seem to be true at the same time. Would you not bother trying to reach Nirvana, if it were not the ultimate goal?

Thank you, I am blushing. Just to clarify reaching Nirvarna IS my ultimate goal, though I would rather use the word enlightenment.
The reason I did not join answer 1. to answer 2. is because while I am 100% sure that enlightenment is real and I can achieve it, I know nothing of any further steps on the path after enlightenment so I can only speculate at best at my current level of understanding. The Buddha clearly stated that an enlightened person could not be part of this world. Enlightenment is a different state to the states we humans currently occupy. There is no enlightened person currently walking this earth. That would imply would it not that there are further existences or steps.

While I vaguely get what you are trying to say re the movie (I think). However, I have to disagree with it a little. One cannot escape from the movie by living in the gaps. For me, playing an active role in the movie is vital to attaining enlightenment. One cannot just sit as a casual observer. The Buddha gave up a wealthy life to go out and mix with the people. By mixing with them, he came to understand them and to see their suffering first hand. This is how he achieved enlightenment. Remember, he had already spent 7 years meditating on his own only to declare that it was a waste of 7 years and would not work. What did work was taking an active role and learning from what he felt and experienced. As I mentioned when talking about our relationship with animals, Buddhism also expounds a sense of kinship and an intimate feeling of community with all that lives. That will not, cannot, happen if we live between the various scenes. The very act of seeing and recognizing them in turn makes us player, not observers. Any other approach would be selfish, and selfishness is a very big no no. We all must play our part.

Nirvana has no beginning and no end. So reaching Nirvana, is "meeting" or "seeing and remembering" that in you which is eternal, infinite, that has always been and always will be, that is your source and your true being.

Again I have to stress, we can only refer to what enlightenment is not, so I would have to ask you how you can say the above.


Quote:

Nirvana is reached after many lives

Maybe this life, for you! Don't get lazy.

Ah, if you knew a little more about my school of Buddhism you would see that that is exactly my goal, to achieve enlightenment in this life.:)

MeditationMom

Asiaprod wrote:

Thank you, I am blushing. Just to clarify reaching Nirvarna IS my ultimate goal, though I would rather use the word enlightenment.

Hi Asiaprod- I need a little more time to answer this thoughtful post of yours. It is an important one.

For now just two questions - blushing allowed ( it takes a humble and great man to admit to blushsing - I was touched by your honesty and humility - if you really want enlightenment I guess that gives me permission to embarrass you further if I can - careful what you ask for - I'll do my best to be your Ego's worst nightmare)

The first question- Why the preference of the expression "Enlightenment" over "Nirvana?"

And secondly-

Asiaprod wrote:

There is no enlightened person currently walking this earth.

Who says, and how do you, or would you, know this with such certainty ?:cool:

Asiaprod wrote:

Ah, if you knew a little more about my school of Buddhism you would see that that is exactly my goal, to achieve enlightenment in this life

Lucky you don't know what you are talking about or you might change your mind and run as fast as you could in the other direction. But since you don't, I'll take advantage of you and take you by your word. Strong wish, that you have there, my friend.

Asiaprod

MeditationMom wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asiaprod
There is no enlightened person currently walking this earth.

Who says, and how do you, or would you, know this with such certainty ?

Ah, I wonder did I miss write this. I may well have. What I tried to say was that their is no person on this earth who has attained enlightenment. There are indeed enlightened persons on this earth i.e Gandi, the Dala Lama, Desmond Tutu and many others on Boards i.e. . However, this higher life condition should never be confused with the ultimate goal of attaining enlightenment which is something entirely different. My apologies for my poor writing, I have been living in a foreign country for 21 years and believe it or not often find it hard to communicate my thinking verbally.

Just for the record, I believe a definition of enlightenment can only be approximated by what it is not. It is not the clinging existence with which man is understood to be afflicted. It is not any sort of becoming. It has no origin or end. It is not made or fabricated. It has no dualities, so that it cannot be described in words. It has no parts that may be distinguished one from another. It is not a subjective state of consciousness. It is not conditioned on or by anything else.

MeditationMom wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asiaprod
Ah, if you knew a little more about my school of Buddhism you would see that that is exactly my goal, to achieve enlightenment in this life

Lucky you don't know what you are talking about or you might change your mind and run as fast as you could in the other direction. But since you don't, I'll take advantage of you and take you by your word. Strong wish, that you have there, my friend.

I must be honest and say that my first reaction to this was anger. That turned to how discourteous a response, on to why the veiled warning? There is not much I can say when faced with this comment that I view somewhat negatively. I will just wait and trust that I am not going to see some diatribe against an organization or individual as I am not responsible for what stupid people in their ignorance do in the name of good. The ball is in your court.

MeditationMom

I am sorry Asiaprod if I have offended you. That would be the least of my intentions. It must be a misunderstanding, because some of what you say I don't understand.

I will just wait and trust that I am not going to see some diatribe against an organization or individual as I am not responsible for what stupid people in their ignorance do in the name of good.

[QUOTE+Asiaprod]Ah, if you knew a little more about my school of Buddhism you would see that that is exactly my goal, to achieve enlightenment in this life[/QUOTE]

Is this related? I have no clue what your school of Buddhism is. Even if I did, I would not judge you by any organization you belong to. All churches, ashrams, sanghas have their problems and problem people. I would not be able to "hang out" with Catholics, or Americans, or Germans, or, or, or... if I held them responsible for what some Catholics, or some Americans do. Also I am about as open minded about all kinds of religious methods as you could hope for. Does that clear that one up?

The next one is propably a little trickier.

Lucky you don't know what you are talking about or you might change your mind and run as fast as you could in the other direction. But since you don't, I'll take advantage of you and take you by your word. Strong wish, that you have there, my friend.

This is rude and offensive and disrespectful, and certainly "veiled" and confusing, if you don't get the joke. Maybe I am not so good at making jokes. That is a very strong possibility!!!:o

You said so many times that we cannot know what enlightenment is and that enlightnement is definitely your goal for this life - so you want something very badly, that "you know nothing about" - what if it is something you won't like at all? Sorry, I thought I was going to make you laugh.

It is a strong, actually the strongest, wish, and longing in the human soul - to reach enlightnement. For you to state this so boldly - is unusal for people to do. It means you trust us in this forum. And I was blown away by it. I was offering my help, as in calling you on stuff, even at the risk of seeming rude and offensive, or enlightened, God forbid. With the statement "I want to reach enlightenment in this lifetime" I assumed you had invited me to make you embarrassed, angry, upset etc. as those are good signs of where the unenlightenment still lurkes in the Ego.

But now I am not so sure. I would have to actually have to hear from you clearly, whether you want me to pick at your posts' statements with my full capabilities. The truth is mostly uncomfortable ( because it goes against many treasured thoughts and opinions we have worked hard to come up with ) and I do not "want to be your worst nightmare" or do that to you, without invitation or permission. Search for truth is not about making each other feel good or preaching to the choir. That's why I love the atheists on this forum.

Let me know if there are any other things I said that you still have any bad feelings about, so I can clear them up.

If you decide to let me try (-no guarantee I'll be good enough at this) to literally destroy some of your dearest held notions, you would have to assure me that you KNOW that I am doing it as a friend to you on the path. But then... watch out for MeditationMom!:)

Asiaprod

MeditationMom wrote:

I am sorry Asiaprod if I have offended you. That would be the least of my intentions. It must be a misunderstanding, because some of what you say I don't understand.

I am glad you have come back with this. As I mentioned to Brian Calgary a long time ago, words as a method of communication do not always come across as they we intended.

Is this related? I have no clue what your school of Buddhism is. Even if I did, I would not judge you by any organization you belong to. All churches, ashrams, sanghas have their problems and problem people. I would not be able to "hang out" with Catholics, or Americans, or Germans, or, or, or... if I held them responsible for what some Catholics, or some Americans do. Also I am about as open minded about all kinds of religious methods as you could hope for. Does that clear that one up?

Admirably so.

Lucky you don't know what you are talking about or you might change your mind and run as fast as you could in the other direction. But since you don't, I'll take advantage of you and take you by your word. Strong wish, that you have there, my friend.
And your reply:
This is rude and offensive and disrespectful, and certainly "veiled" and confusing, if you don't get the joke. Maybe I am not so good at making jokes. That is a very strong possibility!!!

Yes, I am sorry to say I did not see any joke, hence my reaction to what you posted.

You said so many times that we cannot know what enlightenment is and that enlightnement is definitely your goal for this life - so you want something very badly, that "you know nothing about" - what if it is something you won't like at all? Sorry, I thought I was going to make you laugh.

I think the point here is that you forgot to mention that it could be something I won't like and therefore I perceived your comment as an attack on my desire to attain something that I know nothing about, but know in my heart is good.

It is a strong, actually the strongest, wish, and longing in the human soul - to reach enlightnement. For you to state this so boldly - is unusal for people to do. It means you trust us in this forum. And I was blown away by it. I was offering my help, as in calling you on stuff, even at the risk of seeming rude and offensive, or enlightened, God forbid. With the statement "I want to reach enlightenment in this lifetime" I assumed you had invited me to make you embarrassed, angry, upset etc. as those are good signs of where the unenlightenment still lurkes in the Ego.

Haha, even a Buddhist would not open the door willingly to being embarrassed, angry, upset etc. However, I am of course eager to hear other ideas an opinions as they provide a way for me to better understand the deeper mysteries of Buddhism, so fire away, I have just put on my protective clothing.

But now I am not so sure. I would have to actually have to hear from you clearly, whether you want me to pick at your posts' statements with my full capabilities. The truth is mostly uncomfortable ( because it goes against many treasured thoughts and opinions we have worked hard to come up with ) and I do not "want to be your worst nightmare" or do that to you, without invitation or permission. Search for truth is not about making each other feel good or preaching to the choir. That's why I love the atheists on this forum.

Please feel free to to pick at my posts' statements with your full capabilities. I in turn will not guarantee that I will perceive all you say as correct, but it should prove to be a very enlightening experience. By the way, I have said it before, I will continue to say it. As I see it, I am both a Buddhist and an Atheist, I believe in no Gods. If I were to try to put a name on it, I believe in a natural law.

Let me know if there are any other things I said that you still have any bad feelings about, so I can clear them up.

None that i can think of. If they come up, I will be sure to mention it to you.

If you decide to let me try (-no guarantee I'll be good enough at this) to literally destroy some of your dearest held notions, you would have to assure me that you KNOW that I am doing it as a friend to you on the path.

How could I refuse when you have asked so nicely, fire away, my protective cloths are on.

But then... watch out for MeditationMom!

Watch out for the tiger. As they say, "He who rides the tiger can never get off"

MeditationMom

Hi Asiaprod,
For today I just send you my love, and relief that we cleared up our misunderstandings. Not much time today for a thoughtful, longer post to you. But soon, and I'll go back to our previous ones to clear up a few things I think need to be addressed before we go on. Especially our definitions of key words, like enlighenment.

Asiaprod wrote:

I think the point here is that you forgot to mention that it could be something I won't like and therefore I perceived your comment as an attack on my desire to attain something that I know nothing about, but know in my heart is good.

You're right. So much in our normal communications comes across in facial expressions and body language - one has to be much more careful and precise here. I hope to improve.

Asiaprod wrote:

Watch out for the tiger. As they say, "He who rides the tiger can never get off"

This is very interesting, because after I went to bed, after my post to you, I had an image of a tiger. Then I remembered that you had a roaring tiger under your name. It felt like I had to get past that tiger, and that behind the tiger is that which is you - enlightened - that empty, conscious space. My job to ride, or tame, or befriend the tiger to take you past. How the heck did I get this job?:) I guess that has been my "strong wish" for a long time - I hope to serve you well. (I'll explain a little bit more about that in a future post)

"He who rides the tiger can never get off"

I have not heard this before. In what context is this used and what does it mean? We better make sure we are talking about the same tigers.:)

Asiaprod

MeditationMom wrote:

I have not heard this before. In what context is this used and what does it mean? We better make sure we are talking about the same tigers.:)

''Ch'i 'hu nan hsia pei'' is the original Chinese proverb, translated as ''He who rides a tiger is afraid to dismount.'' A rough interpretation of the proverb would be ''Once a dangerous or troublesome venture is begun, the safest course is to carry it through to the end'' .

Or in plain speak, it is easy to get on the Tiger but very difficult to get off without incurring danger to oneself.

maitri

Hi to you all!

Since “the tiger" seems to be a “hot” symbol here on the Buddhism Forum (e.g. two of the participants having dreamt of tigers and so on), I took the liberty of looking it up in a dream interpreter (and also in another book about symbols and their meanings):

“The tiger symbolizes strength, anger, sexual power, inner anxiety or terrifying urges. It can represent fear of other peoples rage or strength. In some cases it might symbolize of a mother’s protection or it might represent the rage of a woman [especially white tigers is said to represent this] or sexual desire.”

From Tony Crisp: Your Dream Interpreter.

In Chinese astrology the Tiger is the third sign in the animal zodiac, and corresponds more or less to the star sign of Gemini. (So Maitri must be “double tiger”, being born in the year of the tiger and in the sign of Gemini (birthday was yesterday!) – not good at all for a girl, according to the Chinese…very difficult to marry away… too strong and too stubborn…Sigh!)

It is also said that every person or symbol in a dream (also) represent parts of yourself or your situation of life. I kind of like that point of view… But anyway I think the dreamer is the only one who can really tell what her/his dream really means.

Love,

M.

MeditationMom

Thank You Maitri-DoubleTigerWoman

Maitri wrote:

“The tiger symbolizes strength, anger, sexual power, inner anxiety or terrifying urges. It can represent fear of other peoples rage or strength. In some cases it might symbolize of a mother’s protection or it might represent the rage of a woman [especially white tigers is said to represent this] or sexual desire.”

Just wanted to quickly make clear that it was not a dream in my case, but an image. I receive these images when I ask about a person. This can be anything, animals, things, shapes etc. It helps me to respond to the person properly. Some people just want to, for example, control their anxiety, or their anger, or be kinder to their spouses - and so on. If I were to get a Tiger Image for a person like that it would be a question of taming this tiger, or directing it, or using it properly.

Asiaprod wants to reach enlightenment. What he needs to discover is that which lives "behind" the tiger. The Tiger is protecting "the most precious", inner treasure. We all long for this treasure, but few know or admit it, even fewer risk everything for it.

I am not surprised that it is an image of a Tiger for Asiaprod. The Tiger is a noble, fierce and courageous symbol. Asiaprod has shown his courage by saying - he wants enlightenment. He has shown his nobility and humility in admitting to embarrassment and anger. His fierceness, combined with the other two, is going to get him where he wants to go. ("go" is not a good word, but there is no better one.)

Yes, the tiger stands for all the things you mention above as in the idea of the EGO, which is there to help us survive and procreate, both our civilised Ego (including intellectual, political, religious etc. EGO) and our more ancient, primal EGO as in primitive urges, rage, fear etc.

All of that, we need to drop, or the way I like to explain it, relax so completely, that the truth of our being - enlightenment -can be revealed to us. This requires unusual levels of love and trust to face the abyss we call "death". There is no guarantee for a person to be able to come back from this event.

Maitri wrote:

It is also said that every person or symbol in a dream (also) represent parts of yourself or your situation of life. I kind of like that point of view…

Yes, this is very helpful, to look at one's dreams like that. And if you took this one step further, if life is a dream, then everyone and everything we encounter in life, also is part of ourselves. We would naturally become more friendly, kinder and less afraid, and more intelligent in resolving life situations.
With this idea, even without enlightenment one can live an enlightened life-
Thanks for looking all this up.

maitri

Hi MeditationMom!

Thank you for very interesting thoughts!
In Norway, where I come from, it's actually part of old folk tradition that some people can see animal representations of other people - it's called "fylgja". (I don't, though).

MeditationMom wrote:

And if you took this one step further, if life is a dream, then everyone and everything we encounter in life, also is part of ourselves.

I really like this thought! That's (in some way) how I also see things. Everything is part of us (also, maybe, because we don't experience things "directly" but always through the interpretations of our mind an faculties) - and we are part of everything, since everything is interdependent. Though, on a level of course we are different and "seperate" beings, too. Plurality and oneness at the same time?

By the way, just me being curious: Do you see yourself as a buddhist?

I hope everything is fine with you wherever you are!

Regards,

Maitri


PS: Even though I am astrologically speaking very much a tiger, I don't really identify with or see myself such a big cat. For me the tiger is a very masculine symbol. I think a normal wary thin Norwegian tabby, would be more like me... Or maybe a small Birman, when I feel good about myself. I looked up the word "cat" as well in the dream interpreter: Symbolizes the need of taking care of and being taken care of by others.ds.

hairyheretic

maitri wrote:

In Norway, where I come from, it's actually part of old folk tradition that some people can see animal representations of other people - it's called "fylgja". (I don't, though).

At the risk of going somewhat off topic (and likely more suited to the paganism forum) I've been looking into that recently myself. From what I've read though, the fylgja is as much its own being as a reflection of the person. Would that tally with what you know about this?

Asiaprod

hairyheretic wrote:

At the risk of going somewhat off topic

Not really off topic, it is a fasinating subject. It plays a major role in many belief systems (Hindu, American Indian). I have always accociated myself with the snow leopard. I even have one tatood on my arm. I have a strange affinity with wide and desolate mountain like its habitat in Nepal and India. I too am a wanderer and very at home in the wilds with just myself for company. Ha, maybe I should have been a monk, maybe I was one once. I might even be one in a future existence.

maitri

hairyheretic wrote:

I've been looking into that recently myself. From what I've read though, the fylgja is as much its own being as a reflection of the person. Would that tally with what you know about this?

Yes absolutely. It seems to be both its own being and a reflection/representation of the person.
But I believe e.g. the indian totem-animals have a more positive meaning than the fylgja, which is often more scary? If I understand right. I don't know very much about this. (Most of my information is from school when we read the beautiful poem "Haugtussa" (“Woman of the Underground People”) by Arne Garborg which is a tragic love story about a girl with such paranormal abilities.)

Snow leopard, Asia?

They're cute:


http://www.kidsplanet.org/factsheets/snow_leopardp1.html

http://www.snowleopardconservancy.org/


And a Buddhist legend about the snow leopard and Milarepa:

http://www.snowleopardconservancy.org/tibmyths.htm

hairyheretic

Asiaprod wrote:

Not really off topic, it is a fasinating subject.

Yeah, but it would end up going OT if I explained where I was going with it

Asiaprod wrote:

It plays a major role in many belief systems (Hindu, American Indian). I have always accociated myself with the snow leopard.

If I had to pick a totem for myself, I'd probably go with Dog or Wolf.

Asiaprod wrote:

I even have one tatood on my arm. I have a strange affinity with wide and desolate mountain like its habitat in Nepal and India. I too am a wanderer and very at home in the wilds with just myself for company. Ha, maybe I should have been a monk, maybe I was one once. I might even be one in a future existence.

I think reincarnation would best be served in a thread of its own. Its an interesting topic, though not one I have that much familiarity with.

hairyheretic

maitri wrote:

Yes absolutely. It seems to be both its own being and a reflection/representation of the person.
But I believe e.g. the indian totem-animals have a more positive meaning than the fylgja, which is often more scary?

I'm curious, why do you believe it to be more scary than other totems?

maitri wrote:

If I understand right. I don't know very much about this. (Most of my information is from school when we read the beautiful poem "Haugtussa" (“Woman of the Underground People”) by Arne Garborg which is a tragic love story about a girl with such paranormal abilities.)

That might be useful for me to read. Would you happen to have a link for that (in English)? If not I'll google it later when I get home.

maitri

hairyheretic wrote:

I'm curious, why do you believe it to be more scary than other totems?

I am not sure, but from what I remember they very often represent the hidden dark side of the person.
A totem animal represtents more your strength and potential, I think. But of course that does not need to be a dichotomy (right word?) - your hidden dark side might just turn out to be your strength when treated right.

hairyheretic wrote:

That might be useful for me to read. Would you happen to have a link for that (in English)? If not I'll google it later when I get home.

Hmmm... this is what I found, and it was only a few of the poems, and not about the fylgja, but a little about the main character, Veslemøy:

http://www.recmusic.org/lieder/assemble_texts.html?LanguageId=7&SongCycleId=272

Asiaprod

maitri wrote:

And a Buddhist legend about the snow leopard and Milarepa:

Thank you maitri:), I got great pleasure from reading that.

MeditationMom

maitri wrote:

old folk tradition that some people can see animal representations of other people - it's called "fylgja".

I didn't know that. What does the word "fylgja" mean, other than describing this ability?
I think the American Indians used to go out into the wilderness, fasting and praying until they became aware of their spirit animal which then functioned like an internal guru for them for their entire life, giving them strength, wisdom, and whatever the spirit animal's particular qualities were. Asiaprod, how did you discover your snow leopard?

Maitri wrote:

Plurality and oneness at the same time?

This gave my buddha belly a good chuckle. My answer to you: Yes,
and No! If the ocean is the oneness, the many different waves on the surface are the plurality. Neither the oneness nor the plurality is lost.

Maitri wrote:

By the way, just me being curious: Do you see yourself as a buddhist?

Ahh, Maitri, if you were a sleepy, purring little cat, resting in my lap while I were sitting in my chair, sipping a nice hot cup of tea, I would whisper my secret into your ear- as long as you would keep it to yourself, which of course you would. I see myself as a Buddha, albeit a Buddha in a closet. I opened the door a tiny crack by joining all of you on this forum and now that Asiaprod has so snow leopard-like announced that he wants to become enlightened I have been waiting for the courage to step out of that closet completely. I have decided, but not yet taken the step. Soon I will go back to the earlier posts above about enlightenment.

Terms like "Enlightenment" sound very dramatic and special, so does the word or name "Buddha" and often I find it easier to remember what Jesus said: "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free" this truth and this freedom has been revealed, or given, or has happened - it is impossible to say it right, I couldn't say it has happend to me, I could maybe say it is me, or it has become me, but ultimately nothing can be said about it. Jesus did a good job with his statement. I think in Buddhism this truth and freedom is called liberation. Once it happens you are forever changed and there is absolutely no doubt, that there could be anything else beyond it. You also know that you are no different from anybody else, as you still carry a body with a mind and emotions as part of your physical existence. There just is a monumental shift in your experience of life after. My life wants to be used to be of help, as a quiet friend to others on their journeys, but only if invited or welcome. I have been avoiding this more or less successfully for 21 years, but now there is this snow leopard in Tokyo, and who knows what other animals out there, all waiting outside my closet door.

Enlightenment and Un-Enlightenment at the same time? Yes and No! I am the ocean. The body you see, or the mental output you see on your sceen, or the emotions that come, are the waves on the surface. But I do not exist anymore as a wave to myself, but still to others, and sometimes even I forget, for fun or drama.:)

Asiaprod

MeditationMom wrote:

Asiaprod, how did you discover your snow leopard?

How does one describe something that is an emotional thing. The best I could say in words would be
Over a vast a distance we met, beauty, purpose and independence was perceived. We felt as Kin:o

and now that Asiaprod has so snow leopard-like announced that he wants to become enlightened I have been waiting for the courage to step out of that closet completely. I have decided, but not yet taken the step. Soon I will go back to the earlier posts above about enlightenment.

Hum, interesting. You hid for 21 years, where as I declared my goal to attain enlightenment exactly 21 years ago.

Jesus said: "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free" this truth and this freedom has been revealed, or given, or has happened - it is impossible to say it right, I couldn't say it has happend to me, I could maybe say it is me, or it has become me, but ultimately nothing can be said about it.

In my usual brash, yet honest way, I must admit that your constant references to Jesus do put me of somewhat. This may be a misunderstanding which needs to be cleared up. I accept that a person named Jesus existed and that he said some remarkable things that can help us greatly. However, I refuse to accept the bunk that he was god or his son or any other of that Christian dogma alluding to his godly position. When it come to this I am atheist to the core. As long as he stays human I am fine. The moment he becomes anything other than an enlightened person. I am not interested. How does Jesus fit into your picture?

Jesus did a good job with his statement. I think in Buddhism this truth and freedom is called liberation. Once it happens you are forever changed and there is absolutely no doubt, that there could be anything else beyond it. You also know that you are no different from anybody else, as you still carry a body with a mind and emotions as part of your physical existence. There just is a monumental shift in your experience of life after. My life wants to be used to be of help, as a quiet friend to others on their journeys, but only if invited or welcome.

Then you are no different than I.

I have been avoiding this more or less successfully for 21 years, but now there is this snow leopard in Tokyo, and who knows what other animals out there, all waiting outside my closet door.

we all have to take monumental steps in our life. Fear of rejection, of ridicule, are indeed human fears that prevent us fulfilling our role. Our destiny is fluid, we create it moment by moment, one cannot escape ones destiny.
I look forward to you coming out of the closet:)

hairyheretic

maitri wrote:

I am not sure, but from what I remember they very often represent the hidden dark side of the person.

Hmm. I hadn't come across that interpretation before. I have my suspicions about why you might think that though.

It's part of a pre-christian belief, and christianity has a long history of turning peoples gods into devils in an effort to reinforce itself on a people. Given that, I wouldn't be surprised that it would be shaded.

I could be wrong of course, but thats just my thoughts.

maitri wrote:

A totem animal represtents more your strength and potential, I think. But of course that does not need to be a dichotomy (right word?) - your hidden dark side might just turn out to be your strength when treated right.

Certainly. There may be times when you need a darker, or more aggressive, nature to get you out of whatever situation you may be in.

maitri wrote:

Hmmm... this is what I found, and it was only a few of the poems, and not about the fylgja, but a little about the main character, Veslemøy:

Thanks, I'll check it later.

hairyheretic

MeditationMom wrote:

I didn't know that. What does the word "fylgja" mean, other than describing this ability?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fylgja

A fylgja (literally: she, who follows) was, according to Scandinavian mythology, a supernatural creature which accompanied a person. It usually appeared in the form of an animal, and as it was believed to correspond to person's character or way of living it was probably conceived of as a person's soul that was separated from the body. A warlike man consequently had for instance a wolf or a bear for a fylgja. The fylgjur appeared during sleep, but the sagas relate that they could appear when a person was awake as well, and seeing one's fylgja was an omen of one's death.

I've also encountered it in relation to norse shamanism (seidr). Here's a brief extract from a page that speaks of it.

Your first efforts should always be toward the singular end of making contact with your fylgja. The fylgja is similar to but not exactly the same as an animal totem or spirit guide. It is more than either of these in that it is as much a part of you as it is of the outside. Some practitioners think of it as the animal shape of your soul. I consider it one of many shapes and attributes of my spiritual lineage. Regardless of what shape it might assume, never think of it as a servant. It is a much more intimate relationship. Always treat it with respect and never place it in danger. The form of each individual's fylgja will be unique but certain basic forms are common. Wolf, fox, cat, hawk, boar, bear and horse are the most likely forms you will encounter but others exist and virtually any animal form is possible. The occasional wyrm or dragon and seemingly human forms do manifest but these are unusual and should be considered most fortuitous. With this in mind, novices should always include the Ehwaz rune in the construction of their circle. This rune is specific for shapeshifting and contacting your fylgja.

Acer

Hi Everyone,

Have been reading the recent threads with great interest. However, I am at an impass in my studies of Buddhism. I have practiced Buddhism for the past ten years and have received many, many benefits directly attributed to my practice but to put it simply, I am stuck in a cul-de-sac!! So maybe , if no one minds, I would like to introduce a new and I feel vitally important topic for discussion.

Since staring out on this great journey, the concept of Esho Funi (Japanese for the oneness of self and environment) has from the start, been the easiest for me to understand and accept. Perhaps this is because I work with plants and trees. Anyway, to get to the heart of what I would like to talk about.... The environment within which we all have the great benefit and dare I say, luxury of being able to pursue our own paths to eventual enlightenment, is, in a manner of speaking, virtually ****ed! For the first time in the history of the planet, a single species (Us) has created the most serious threat to the the stability of this environment. It is official... Global warming is happening and it is directly attributable to the life styles we are ALL leading.

The three poisons as described in Buddhism, Greed, Anger and Ignorance(Stupidity) are at the root cause of this threat to our very existence. I probably don't have to reiterate what has been well publicised by various bodies and what I have seen for myself (there is a permanent brown cloud of pollution in the lower atmosphere over S.E. Asia and China seemingly unaffected by weather) but the atmospheric changes due to our everyday activities are speeding up.

So, as buddhists with our belief that Life is eternal, what can we do about it? Of course we should all do our own little things like recycling, re-using etc. but when it comes down to it, EVERYTHING in modern society is dependent on the filthiest energy source ever used. Thousands upon thousands of people have died to secure the supplies of this energy source yet we just complain if the price goes up!!!

If we accept the concept of Esho Funi then, it is a short step to accept the Gaia Hypothesis as exponded by James Lovelock. The earth is a self regulating organism and we are in no way seperate from it. However, every organism has the ability and potential to fight disease by either antibodies or some other means. The earth also has this ability. In the most negative view point, modern society is like a disease which is causing the most horrendous injury to this astonishingly beautiful planet. As far as we know and despite what our faith may tell us, there ain't another one out there. The inevitable, terrible suffering that all our activites have caused and will cause in the future I find very, very difficult to come to terms with if, indeed, one can.

So folks, any thoughts on my first posting

It IS an important issue, but I don't know what I for one could do.
I hear that the oil is going to run out within my lifetime so people are certainly going to have to find different sources by then, eh?

A good post with good points, now offer us some solutions

Acer

Hi Bluewolf

Thanks for the reply!

The dilemna is... what can be done? It is generally accepted that a new energy source can take at least 25 years or so to become widely available. Witness the development of wind power. Fact is though, there is no one single cheap energy source on the horizon which can, at the moment, take the place of oil. Everything from matchsticks to filling our bellies depends on oil. Heck, we wouldn't be having this discussion on line if it wasn't for the black stuff!! Everyone I've tried to talk to about this just doesn't want to know.
Fear of loosing the lifestyles they worked so hard to achieve underlies this

The only solution I can offer at the moment is to keep on doing what we can to minimise our own impact or footprint on this planet. Oh yes and plant trees if we can possibly do so.

What does Buddhism teach us to do??

I have yet to come across buddhism telling us to do anything on this kind of issue
I wonder if this would be of any help
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=3512

Acer

Thanks for the links. They certainaly will provide me with inspiration to continue. Urgency is paramount if we are to stem the tide. I worry for my kids and their kids.

maitri

MeditationMom wrote:

Ahh, Maitri, if you were a sleepy, purring little cat, resting in my lap while I were sitting in my chair, sipping a nice hot cup of tea, I would whisper my secret into your ear- as long as you would keep it to yourself, which of course you would.

Oh, as a cat resting in your lap, I would probably be more interested in the tone of your voice (and in whether you scratched just that right spot under my ear) that in the contents of words, anyway.

MeditationMom wrote:

I see myself as a Buddha, albeit a Buddha in a closet.

That's interesting!
But... in a way... aren't we all?
I found this quote in a Sutra called the Prajnaparamita (I am probably too found of quotes, but anyway):

"all objects and structures, just as they are in the present moment, are themselves enlightenment, both the way and the goal, being perfectly transparent to the ineffable."

Regards,

Maitri

PS: That was interesting informatian about the fylgja, Hairyheretic! Thanks! You seem to know much more about the topic than I do.

Asiaprod

Acer wrote:

Since staring out on this great journey, the concept of Esho Funi (Japanese for the oneness of self and environment) has from the start, been the easiest for me to understand and accept.

Hi acer and welcome. Esho Funi, I guess that put us in the same group NHRK.
Since you know of Esho Funi, you also know that we are taught that great changes start with little steps, like planting a tree:) Ecology and nature is not just the domain of Buddhist, it concerns everyone, and many are already fighting Global Warming in a million little way every day. As with each of us, it start with you my friend. As bluewolf mentioned, offer us some solutions.
Here are mine:
Separate your garbage.
Re-use plastic bags when you go to the supermarket. Better still, don't use plastic bags but bring a bag with you.
Put on an extra Jumper instead of turning up the heat.
Use the car less, buy a push bike
Give up smoling
Don't hold a BBQ in your back garden.
And a million more thing I am sure you can think of. Every little step counts.

And on a larger scale, lobby your local minister.
Join a green group
Go demonstrate.

In short Acer, there are a thousand things one can do. Its really down to you and how strongly you feel about it. I do what little things I can and I chant that man in his wisdom will realize his folly. I hate to say this but Nuclear energy is probably the way forward, but first we have to find a safe way to dispose of the waste and I do not mean just blasting it into space to aimlessly go and pollute somewhere else. We might be able to launch it into the sun.
It is a fight worth fighting, but you and I know it starts with ourselves and with lots of Ds.

MeditationMom

hairyheretic- thank you for sending this - it does sound much more like shamanism which is more of a psychological system. Very interesting though.

Asiaprod wrote:

Then you are no different than I.

Did I suggest that I was? I didn't mean to. Does this mean I have to get a tatoo, now? Now, that would scare me.;)

Asiaprod wrote:

I declared my goal to attain enlightenment exactly 21 years ago.

I am not sure I understand. Is it a ceremony or rite of passage in your school of Buddhism? Is it to a master, like taking sannyas, which would be more like a surrender than a declaration - or is it to a community, or both? Please explain so I can understand.

Asiaprod wrote:

The moment he becomes anything other than an enlightened person.

"Anything other" enlightenened? Yes, he is enlightened. But why say "anything other". You say it, and maybe I am misunderstanding, as if calling Jesus the Son of God is elevating him above enlightenment.

Being "God's Son" is less than being enlightened.

Jesus was "God's Son" the same way we are "God's sons and daughters." Instead of thinking "he was human like us" we need to think "we are God's Sons/Daughters, like him.
He was definitely enlightened when he said "My father and I are One". This is a statement of Enlightenment. Some were even more bold, or clumbsy, depends how you look at it, and said "I am God" ( I have to look up who it was,a sufi if I recall ) and immediately were stoned to death.

Buddha and Jesus are equally enlightened. And so are many others. Enlightenment has no "levels". One either is or is not. It gets confusing because some people who follow the teachings of enlightened ones, live enlightened lives, like some of the people you mentioned in a previous post, but are not actually enlightened. And some enlightened people live in ways you could not live like, if you were not enlightened yet, and hoped to become enlightened still. I hope this expresses it right what I am trying to say.

It is as if the enlightened one were the only one who can see among blind people. If he or she is like Buddha or Jesus he will be driven by compassion as all the blind people are suffering, bumping into walls and furniture. He will give teachings- to slow down, to help each other, to meditate, to become more sensitive to the surroundings in order to not hit things full force etc. People will either suspect that there is something different about this person and take a chance and follow the instructions or say- he is just like us, why should he know better, I'll do what I want and find out for myself. It is not a problem, just siily to refuse guidance if it is available. Now imagine, someone else "wakes up", gets enlightened, is not blind anymore and sees- he or she will look at the teacher, they see each other, instantly they recognise each other's state of non-blindness and the nature of the whole situation. All of a sudden everything makes sence. All the previous teachings of all the enlightened ones who have gone before, all the mistakes one has made along the way, become clear. And one laughs.

If one declares "I can see" it is either an inspiration or an affront to others, it depends on them- one either ends up stoned to death, on the cross, or protected and revered in an ashram or sangha, as Buddha was. Even declaring "I want to see" like you did can get one into a lot of trouble, as it indirectly brings up the fact of blindness. That is why it is so courageous. More courageous actually than declaring "I can see" after enlightenment, as fear of death is gone already.

So one cannot make any distinction between Jesus and Buddha, and many others. One can certainly argue about the differences in their teaching methods after enlightnement and the fruits of their efforts.

The way Buddha and Jesus taught after enlightenment was very different. Most people who get enlightened, especially women, avoid teaching or don't have skills to do so. The ones who decide to teach, all have very individual ways. Some simply- after their own enlightenment- understand why their master's methods worked, and become part of a lineage and continue to use the same method, in effect borrowing the same method that helped them. Others develop a method on their own, using the language and methaphores that work in their day and time, especially if they "where a light onto themselves" and analyse how it happend for them.

To clarify the issue of my mentioning Jesus so much- I was raised RC and to this day have not found any issues with anything Jesus ever is reported to have said. But, by the time I was 12 I found most of the teachings of the RCC so bizarre that I went my own way. It took me into Psychology, Christian Science, Shamanism, Sufism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Tantra, Taoism, Macrobiotic Philosphy, all while being on my real path as a wife and mother. Wife and Mother - instead of running off to live in an ashram or sangha - which is what I wanted to do - became my often very difficult, but only meaningful, and ultimately successful, path.

I had the help and guidance of three enlightened masters along the way. An Indian, Korean and Japanese one. In the end it was a Koan that broke the veil, in combination with the absolute trust and love I had for my master, that allowed me to "jump" into absolute non-existence, which is Nirvana, on October 21, 1985. Now I know it is possible for anyone and Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed and many much less known ones, are our brothers.

It is hard for me to imagine that this could have happended through the teachings or guidance of the RCC, in my case, but possible I guess. If I had grown up with all the silly stories of Buddhism, of Buddha being born from under his mother's armpit and such, maybe Christianity would have been the helpful and more trustworthy path for me. Ultimetely I have to give the RCC a lot of credit in my life, even though it was so long ago and they surely would have thrown me out or burned me at the stake, if there were any stakes left.

MeditationMom

In the end it was the Buddhist trick of the Koan, combined with the Hindu tradition of surrendering to a Master in absolute Trust and Love, plus the help of a Japanese Master confirming what had happened, that I owe my gratitude to. Coming full circle, I recognise Jesus now as the same as Buddha, Lao Tsu, Krishna, Michio Kushi, Osho, Bo-In Lee, Ramana Maharshi, Mohammed, and others encountered along the way. My love and devotion for Jesus is and always has been with me. His followers, or at least the people who made a church organization out of his life and teachings, have done the same messy job of it as any other religion, maybe worse. I am not a historian and cannot judge the level of cruelties commited by the various religions. All these organizations, just as all of us, will have to endure what they are due, their Karma, if you will, and I am not concerned with them at all.

The things Jesus said are more ingrained in my brain from the teachings I received in childhood. There were two priests and one nun, who taught me well, and who will have my life-long gratitude. The Catholic Teachings, if understood as all being lessons and stories about Love and Trust, are extremely valuable on a path towards enlightenment. What is unique about Chritianity, and quite lovable, is that enlightenment is not a goal. Becoming more trusting and loving is. Enlightenment is a promise in Christianity, when Jesus says: "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free".

Enlightenment becomes a side effect, rather than a goal. Having Enlightenment as a goal is very tricky, except for the courage it takes to declare that goal. The intensity of this desire can serve as a jumping board, but without the love and the trust that is required, it is unattainable. "Thy will be done" is a very helpful attitude to let go and let God, when it comes time for enlightenment.

For you, Asiaprod, intellectually, Buddha or Lao Tsu may already have proven to be more helpful than Jesus, as they were for me, as much as you may also love and understand Jesus. But it seems to me that you also have an inner Guru, who is beautiful, independent, full of purpose Snow Leopard.

Asiaprod wrote:

How does one describe something that is an emotional thing. The best I could say in words would be
Over a vast a distance we met, beauty, purpose and independence was perceived. We felt as Kin

Independence speaks of courage, purpose of determination and commitment, all very important on this path towards enlightnement. Beauty speaks of love and trust. The more Love and Trust, the more Grace and Beauty there is. It is "your kin".

I don't know you, so I don't want to be presumptious, but maybe you don't see this beauty, purpose and independence as your attributes to the level that they exist in you. Obviously you see these qualities in yourself to some extent, and it gives you the experience of "kinship", but someday you will find no more "vast distance" in between. It is good that there was a "meeting" already, so for a while the distance was almost gone. One more step is needed. In the last moments before enlightenment there would be an eye to eye moment with your inner Guru (Jesus, Buddha or Snow Leopard - it doesn't matter, it all depends on where you place your deepest love and trust) that gives you the courage, and then you need to jump into the "void of absolute non-existence" where there are no "two", and no distance of even the tiniest fraction. Then you could say "Snow Leopard and I are One". For Jesus it was "Father". For me it was "Osho". Your inner Guru is the gate through which you enter.

"My Father and I are One" is one of the most misunderstood statements in Christianity. I am getting quite interested in studying the fruits of Christianity - I am counting on Brian's help there - Hi Brian - to find the ones who became enlightened through Christianity. Many lived enlightened lives, no question about that, and so hard to do without enlightenment, but it is only by their statements that one can tell whether they've been blessed with the innermost treasure of enlightenment, truth, absolute freedom.

Asiaprod wrote:

Just for the record, I believe a definition of enlightenment can only be approximated by what it is not. It is not the clinging existence with which man is understood to be afflicted. It is not any sort of becoming. It has no origin or end. It is not made or fabricated. It has no dualities, so that it cannot be described in words. It has no parts that may be distinguished one from another. It is not a subjective state of consciousness. It is not conditioned on or by anything else.

All these statement of what enlightenment is not, are so beautiful and correct. ( If they are yours, from your very own experience and not from an intelligent, intellectual understanding after all your years of introspection and contemplation- you prove to be enlightened). But even statements of what it is not, hint at something. So one can also describe enlightenment in positive terms. Take "It has no origin or end." You can say positively "It is beyond time and space, eternal, infinite. It is even beyond the idea of eternity and infinity". "There is no movement in it, yet all moves out of it" "It is who you are, but you are not" "There is no enlightenment, but enlightenment" and so on. It is more poetry than anything else. Desriptions, negative or positive, hinting at something that is beyond words indeed.

What I tried to say was that there is no person on this earth who has attained enlightenment.

This is not true, and I am wondering who or which school teaches this. Could you explain this a little? Maybe our definitions are off. Remember all religious organizations have an intrest in declaring that only their "leader" be it Buddha or Jesus or Mohammed are the truly enlightened ones, or only son of God, etc and they are waiting for their return or re-inkarnation, therefore there is noone on this earth like them right now. This is nothing but politics.

Asiaprod wrote:

There are indeed enlightened persons on this earth i.e Gandi, the Dala Lama, Desmond Tutu and many others on Boards i.e. . However, this higher life condition should never be confused with the ultimate goal of attaining enlightenment which is something entirely different.

This is the same confusion. Gandhi, for example was not enlightened, Desmond Tutu I don't know well enough to say, but I doubt it, the Dalai Lama denies being enlightened but some of his statements prove otherwise, if they are actually his statements and not just intellectually understood, quoted scripture. All of them live great lives as if enlightened, which makes it confusing. Their faith and strength, courage and wisdom are beyond what is normal without enlightenment. I can see that we may have trouble with the word or definition of enlightenment, so I need to understand better what you mean in each of the above sentences and which teachings they come from. It is one reason I quoted Jesus: "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free" in order to take us out of this idea of enlightenment.

Other "names" for the un-namable, besides Enlightenment, that are used are Nirvana, Liberation, Self-Realization ( in the religious sence, not as in finding yourself in California

Asiaprod wrote:

we all have to take monumental steps in our life. Fear of rejection and ridicule are indeed human fears that prevent us fulfilling our role. Our destiny is fluid, we create it moment by moment, one cannot escape ones destiny.
I look forward to you coming out of the closet

Thank you, Asiaprod.

Asiaprod wrote:

Fear of rejection and ridicule

Yes, these fears were there. Now it is more about the responsibility, the commitment, the time - as if becoming a mother all over again. Fear disappears with love and trust, and us mothers are pretty good with that.

I am off to cross the country all the way to Rhode Island in two days and don't know what my internet capabilities will be when I get there, it is pretty remote there. If I disappear from the Forum after tomorrow, that is why and not that I have run back into the closet;) Love to you all.

MeditationMom

Maitri wrote:

Oh, as a cat resting in your lap, I would probably be more interested in the tone of your voice (and in whether you scratched just that right spot under my ear) that in the contents of words, anyway.

Nothing else would be needed
All words are empty, but don't tell Asiaprod so he reads my almost infinite post.

Maitri wrote:

But... in a way... aren't we all?

Yes, and many of us can understand this and become conscious of it through meditation, prayer, insight, reflection, contemplation, time spent in nature, or as Asiaprod mentions several times, kinship with all beings, but then there is one more step. It is an inner step into complete annihilation, only possible with great trust and love in whoever you can have this complete trust in.

(If any of this sounds like a suggestion of suicide to anyone reading this on Boards - this is absolutely not what it is. It is all about an inner journey - and, yes, you have to "die before you die", if you seek enlightenment. If any insight gives you the suggestion of suicide, it is not the right one and you are on the wrong track)

Maitri wrote:

I found this quote in a Sutra called the Prajnaparamita (I am probably too found of quotes, but anyway):

"all objects and structures, just as they are in the present moment, are themselves enlightenment, both the way and the goal, being perfectly transparent to the ineffable."

Keep those quotes coming. They are beautiful and always so appropriate. You choose well. This quote again is proof of that. Your understanding is very deep. No need to seek enlightenment for you. It will not make much difference in you. Would just be the icing on the cake in your case.

This quote could only have been said or written by an enlightened one. To him or her everything and everyone is already enlightened, absolutely perfect in the very present and this perfection shines through all that there is. No imperfection or evil can exist within this obvious perfection.

Acer

Hi MeditationMom

Great insights on what enlightenment is not (and from Asiaprod of course).

Within my limited understanding, enlightenment is surely a constant eternal process and does not result in attaining a final enlightenment. Is an elightened person someone who has a deepr insight into the true nature of existence than the rest of us? If so, I have met many enlightened people living enlightened lives but all of them, being human, have the same demons and fears and stuff that we all have to deal with.

Buddhism teaches that the enlightened buddha nature exists within all sentient and non-sentient beings and things. All of the the ten basic life states.. Hell, Hunger, Animality, Anger, Humanity, Tranquility, Learning, Realisation, Bodhisatva, Buddhahood are all mutually inclusive and in no way are seperate from one and other. Everyone and everything has the buddha nature. Evil also has the enlightened buddha nature. Even murderers love their children.

I believe enlightenment or elevating our basic life condition can only be done through compassionate thoughts, words and deeds but that certainly ain't easy!!

Asiaprod

MeditationMom wrote:

Nothing else would be needed
All words are empty, but don't tell Asiaprod so he reads my almost infinite post.

Haha, you wer'nt joking, but they are excellent. I am looking forward to a very interesting experienc for all of us. Will take some time to digest all you have written, Have a good trip. love back to you.
<hope my cat arrived, he often meanders off:)>

maitri

Hi MeditationMom!

Thanks for all the good words!

MeditationMom wrote:

but then there is one more step. It is an inner step into complete annihilation, only possible with great trust and love in whoever you can have this complete trust in.

Oh…hmm…well… and there we hit right on my weak point, I think…

Do you mean like a “regular spiritual teacher” and the kind of teacher-student relationship that you can have with him/her?

Sometimes it seems like life is the only teacher for me.

But of course, sometimes I meet people who teach me (unknowingly, I think) so much, that without them ever knowing it (I think) they function as spiritual teachers, but then life “separates” them from me. (Lesson over... already?)

So Osho was your teacher? I have one of his books. Cool!

Hope everything is well on Rhode Island!

Hi Acer!

Acer wrote:

I believe enlightenment or elevating our basic life condition can only be done through compassionate thoughts, words and deeds

I believe you are right!

:)Love to all of you,

Maitri/Ingrid

Asiaprod

maitri wrote:

Do you mean like a “regular spiritual teacher” and the kind of teacher-student relationship that you can have with him/her?

Sometimes it seems like life is the only teacher for me.

Maitri, you always ask such wonderful questions, it is a joy.
The answer is yes...but!
I think what MeditationMom is trying to explain is a term we use called Master and disciple. Usually, people throw their hands in the air when they hear this term and misunderstand what is really being said. Let me try to explain.
The function of a master or teacher is to teach the disciple or student. The master teaches on the understanding that disciple will eventually know more than the teacher and will in turn switch places and become in fact the master to the master who now becomes the disciple. The master only progresses when the disciple surpasses him. Very complex to understand I know. Its is if you like a symbiosis, what one gains so too does the other. We call this Kenzoku, or a sharing of spirit

maitri

Hi Asia!

Thanks for your kind answer!

Asiaprod wrote:

The function of a master or teacher is to teach the disciple or student. The master teaches on the understanding that disciple will eventually know more than the teacher and will in turn switch places and become in fact the master to the master who now becomes the disciple. The master only progresses when the disciple surpasses him. Very complex to understand I know. Its is if you like a symbiosis, what one gains so too does the other. We call this Kenzoku, or a sharing of spirit

The concept of Kenzoku - sharing of spirit - sounds lovely!

And I really mean that, but – I have to ask something I have been wondering about:
But doesn't it very easily become a kind of "room" for "old parent-issues"?
The reason why I ask this question is that I wonder if it isn't a way very much like giving somebody (the master) the kind of authority (also emotionally) that a father or a mother has over a small child? And then I guess it will be easy to transfer old attachment and feelings that one had for ones parents as a child to that person.

Or am I misunderstanding how it works? I just wonder: Isn't it very easy to become very dependent of that person who is your teacher instead of growing up?

Of course it might also be good to transfer all those old parent-things (that a lot of people carry with them... I know I do, for sure) to a person that is "safe" and well-meaning and then maybe be more "free" in other relationships?

I don't ask because I believe that to have happened to you, or to any of you, I ask because it is what I fear would very easily happen to me if I entered such a relationship. Can you really - as a grown up person - trust your life into the hands of another human being? Doesn't life teach us (well...hmm...me… at least) again and again that it never works out?

Or is that not what the master-disciple relationship is about?

Please don't feel that this is criticism - I know far too little about this to criticize - it is not meant that way. I ask because I really want to understand how it works.

And also because I have seen so-called “spiritual fathers and mothers” of different traditions (I know too little of Buddhism to know how this really works in Buddhist communities) who misuse their authority, and believe themselves entitled to make too many concrete decisions for their followers. At least that is how I see it.

Asiaprod

maitri wrote:

The concept of Kenzoku - sharing of spirit - sounds lovely!

And I really mean that, but – I have to ask something I have been wondering about:
But doesn't it very easily become a kind of "room" for "old parent-issues"?
The reason why I ask this question is that I wonder if it isn't a way very much like giving somebody (the master) the kind of authority (also emotionally) that a father or a mother has over a small child? And then I guess it will be easy to transfer old attachment and feelings that one had for ones parents as a child to that person. Or am I misunderstanding how it works? I just wonder: Isn't it very easy to become very dependent of that person who is your teacher instead of growing up?

Hi maitri, as always from you good questions.
All the things you have said are very valid, but they do not apply to a real master-disciple relationship, if they did it would not be this kind of relationship. Their is no negative dependence, it is a reunion. Think in terms of Plato's Symposium. that people were joined as two. Something split them, so they spend thir lives looking for their soul mate somewhere.
I have been very lucky in my life in that I have had 3 of these relationships all going at the same time
1 to a Roman Catholic Jesuit Theologan (18 years, he is now dead)
2 to a swedish atheist (20 years, also now dead)
3 to an American Buddhist (21 years and still going strong)
We all developed meaningful relationships where we both studied from and taught to each other. We were best friend, stayed at each others homes and were treated as members of the family. We are still the Guardians for each others kids. We shared a connection that spans time and space, we all knew that we had met before in a different life. Yes one was a priest and one was an atheist. There is an underlying meaning to Kenzoku and to put it very bluntly, it means to find again someone who was very close to you in a previous existence. The greater the kenzoku the the closer the past connection. This is not restricted to Buddhism, how many times have you heard a person refer to their soul mate. Or seen a relationship that goes on for ever even though the individual parties have their own boy or girlfriends/husbands or wives? This is Kenzoku. When it moves to a religious or Buddhist stage it becomes a Master-Disciple relationship. It is a natural phenomenon, but not all are lucky enough to find it. The Zen student and Zen master is supposed to follow this path, but I am not Zen so I cannot answer. I am sure we have all seen shades of kenzoku in our lives, I am sure you have too.
There is no negative dependence with kenzoku, just a great feeling of warm, trust and care. Its wonderful.

maitri

Something like "kindred spirits"?
Like one who “belongs to the race that knows Joseph"? (Expression from "Anne of Green Gables")
Or: “really good lasting friends"?

I know such relationships , but I wouldn't kall it "sharing a soul". (Even though the feeling with such friends might be we are cubs from the same litter;) ) More like sharing a brain, sometimes. Or like "being loyal and faithful and growing side by side".

I didn't know that masters and disciples were thought of as soul-mates. That was totally new to me. Thanks for interesting information! As allways.

But Plato was speaking of what draws people to romantic relationships, didn't he?
I don't know if it's the same thing. Or is it?

Asiaprod

maitri wrote:

I know such relationships , but I wouldn't kall it "sharing a soul". (Even though the feeling with such friends might be we are cubs from the same litter;) ) More like sharing a brain, sometimes. Or like "being loyal and faithful and growing side by side".

Or even like soul mates:)

I didn't know that masters and disciples were thought of as soul-mates. That was totally new to me. Thanks for interesting information! As allways.

This is the definition I understand best but it will probably change from school to school. I an lucky to have it so I know it is real. I have gone down the road of shared memories and experiences and really have been shocked by the similarities;)

[quote}But Plato was speaking of what draws people to romantic relationships, didn't he?
I don't know if it's the same thing. Or is it?[/QUOTE]

Exactly..........or is it?

This is one of those rare occasions where I actually begin to understand some of the Zen teachings. Think back to the Koen we debated only yesterday about the full cup. Nothing becomes clear when the cup is full;)

maitri

Asiaprod wrote:

This is one of those rare occasions where I actually begin to understand some of the Zen teachings.

I am happy to hear that!

Asiaprod wrote:

Think back to the Koen we debated only yesterday about the full cup. Nothing becomes clear when the cup is full.

And I'll take a good look at the cup.



With Metta,

from Maitri

MeditationMom

Acer wrote:

Is an elightened person someone who has a deepr insight into the true nature of existence than the rest of us?

Yes.
It is actual knowing, beyond any doubt, replacing even the deepest insight or understanding one could attain on one's own with one's mind. It is an event of complete annihilation and therefore a total re-union with existence.
It is not an experience of the body, mind or spirit, but an event that happens to itself. And you're it!:D

...the rest of us

We are all one. Noone left behind, running ahead, above or below, "the rest of us" is all of us. Imagine all of us at a big sleep over. In the morning one wakes up. Then another. Everyone will wake up. There is nothing inferior or superior about being asleep or awake. You wake up when you've had enough sleep. Not before. There is something deep within you that decides.

Acer wrote:

Within my limited understanding, enlightenment is surely a constant eternal process and does not result in attaining a final enlightenment.

Your "limited understanding" still is understanding. And not bad either!
How would you say it is limited?
Because you have not read enough about it, or thought about it enough, or something quite different, like not actually being enlightened yet?;)

For example, at which point does a woman become a mother? When does this motherhood start or end? When she is born as a girl with thousands of eggs? When she mothers her dolls in childhood? When she becomes fertile? When she gets pregnant? When she gives birth? When she has been a mother for some time?
And does it ever end? Does she ever stop learning as a mother? Or stop growing in love? Is she that different from other women who have not given birth? Can't some of those women actually be better mothers, maybe to adopted children, a pet or a business, than her?

In summary- you become a mother when you give birth. Yes, it is the end to the level of your previous state, but it is more of a beginning than anything else.

You become enlightenend when enlightenment occurs. It is a beginning more than the achievement of a final goal.

Acer wrote:

If so, I have met many enlightened people living enlightened lives but all of them, being human, have the same demons and fears and stuff that we all have to deal with.

Correct me if I am wrong, but what you seem to say here is - "so what, there is nothing special about enlightenment, no difference between Buddha and Acer?" -
and you would be right!
And, of course, you would be wrong, also.

Acer wrote:

Buddhism teaches that the enlightened buddha nature exists within all sentient and non-sentient beings and things. All of the the ten basic life states.. Hell, Hunger, Animality, Anger, Humanity, Tranquility, Learning, Realisation, Bodhisatva, Buddhahood are all mutually inclusive and in no way are seperate from one and other. Everyone and everything has the buddha nature. Evil also has the enlightened buddha nature. Even murderers love their children.

This is of course true. But only an enlightened one could have made this statement, and did so. So what would have to occur for you to be able to make this statement yourself, with absolute certainty? You yourself would have to become one with existence, enlightened, if we want to use this loaded word, to know that this is true.

Acer wrote:

I believe enlightenment or elevating our basic life condition can only be done through compassionate thoughts, words and deeds but that certainly ain't easy!!

Indeed, it is not easy. A little easier with a lot of trust and love in existence. You can also become enlightenend just because it is time, without any effort at all.

"Enlightenment" and "elevating our basic life condition" though, are two different things and should not be confused. Enlightenment cannot be "done". You can live an enlightened life, as if enlightened, by practising compassion, trust, love, in word and deed, but it is not in itself enlightenment.

Maitri wrote:

Oh…hmm…well… and there we hit right on my weak point, I think…Sometimes it seems like life is the only teacher for me.

Is this "weak point" of yours that you cannot trust anyone, or any relationship, that reminds you of your parents? In that case this would be your parents' weak point!!! Parents should be the first experience of trust for a child. Without it trust becomes difficult.

If you trust life, you have a great teacher! Trust that the whole universe arranges itself for you in such a way as to take you home. And it does so for everyone else also. After enlightenment you know this. Before enlightenment you have a choice whether to believe it or not.

One of the greatest joys of being with an enlightened master is to sit with him or her in silence. Just sitting, doing nothing. This same stillness, peace and within it, endless power and potential, this you can find in nature. If important people like your parents, have disappointed you, your teachers and masters will not be a personalized God, or Master, but life itself, the people here and there in it, and the deep silence in nature, or in your teacup.

Asiaprod wrote:

The function of a master or teacher is to teach the disciple or student. The master teaches on the understanding that disciple will eventually know more than the teacher and will in turn switch places and become in fact the master to the master who now becomes the disciple. The master only progresses when the disciple surpasses him. Very complex to understand I know. Its is if you like a symbiosis, what one gains so too does the other. We call this Kenzoku, or a sharing of spirit

This is very well said, Asiaprod. The teacher-student relationship, very much like the parent-child relationship. One certainly has not been a good teacher or parent if students or children don't far surpass one, and the relatioinship isn't reversed. It is such an endless flowing back and forth.

Maitri wrote:

Or am I misunderstanding how it works? I just wonder: Isn't it very easy to become very dependent of that person who is your teacher instead of growing up?

Maitri wrote:

I don't ask because I believe that to have happened to you, or to any of you, I ask because it is what I fear would very easily happen to me if I entered such a relationship. Can you really - as a grown up person - trust your life into the hands of another human being? Doesn't life teach us (well...hmm...me… at least) again and again that it never works out?

Or is that not what the master-disciple relationship is about?

Asiaprod wrote:

All the things you have said are very valid, but they do not apply to a real master-disciple relationship, if they did it would not be this kind of relationship. Their is no negative dependence, it is a reunion.

This is true and beautifully said. In addition, if your teacher is actually enlightened, then this re-union results in your enlightenment. If he or she is not enlightened yet, it is like two bothers, maybe one a little older and more experienced than the other, helping each other trying to discover the inner treasure.

If a teacher is enlightened and has taken on students, he serves them. Patiently, day in day out, endlessly, always available, never loosing interest in them, even as they wander off to other pursuits, always trying to find a way to nudge them, push them, seduce them, entice them, bring them back, welcome them, even scare them, if neccessary, into the depth of his silence and peace. He needs them more than they need him, even though to them it looks the other way around. His life has been fulfilled. The truth has been revealed. The students are the reason he remains on this shore.

When there is enlightenment there is a great attraction because of your own longing for truth. In my experience with Osho it was an instant recognition and falling in love so powerful there was nothing I could do about it. It had all the love I had ever known, for my parents, my grandparents and who I imagined God and Jesus to be as a child, my husband, my children, all in one and then some. It was quite overpowering. And it all worked nicely long distance. I met many sannyasins later in life and as wonderful as the stories around Osho are, I am glad I was spared the Ashram life. In my own life at the time, everything was life and death, my husband, my children, a friend's suicide, huge struggles until finally I was presented with such a life Koan, everything came to a head and the only way out - was in. Way in. And there I was - no more:D

maitri

Hi!

Thanks for interesting thoughts, MeditationMom. It'll take some time to digest it all.

This is not very relevant, but just for the reckord I am sorry if I have given the impression that my parents are horrible people. They are not. Especially my mother has probably been a better parent than the average.
But in this world as it is, I think a lot of people (maybe most people) have "parent issues", anyway, because, you know, we are all confused. We all make mistakes. And we get hurt because other people make mistakes. I don't know if it's anybodys fault.

You had some beautiful words about the deep silence in nature and in ourselves.
Thank you!

You wrote:
If you trust life, you have a great teacher! Trust that the whole universe arranges itself for you in such a way as to take you home. And it does so for everyone else also.

In a way i feel you are very right in this.
But still... in a world where people are dying of hunger and in tremenduos suffering...
isn't there really urgent to do something to change this, not just to accept it?
Isn't that a responsibility not to be taken to lightly?

Or is this a wrong way of thinking?

What is the best way to do something?



Maitri

Acer

Thanks for the reply, Meditation Mom,

I need a little time to think about your great answer. Will get back to you after tea break!

Acer

Liquidchild

Its the year 2006 and almost 1/3 of the world liv in poverty, its an absolute disgrace dat in this day and age we still brush it under the carpet and turn a blind eye to everything

maitri

Liquidchild wrote:

Its the year 2006 and almost 1/3 of the world liv in poverty, its an absolute disgrace dat in this day and age we still brush it under the carpet and turn a blind eye to everything

Agree!
But what do you think we shall do? How shall we live our lives to help to change this?

Do you have any suggestions?

Asiaprod

maitri wrote:

Do you have any suggestions?

Good answer maitri:)