Foreigners in Limerick

Inge Binge

Dear all,

being the (apparently) only foreigner here in the LIM board I'd like to go a bit non-PC. Or let's say it would be non-PC if an irish would do this

How do you (the irish) see the amount of foreigners here? I'm talking especially about the Polish.

If I talk to my non-irish colleagues (spanish, french and german EDIT: dutch as well) they all get a bit annoyed about the Polish. We all agree that it seems that this country is taken over by this nationality. I have no problems with polish (or baltic) shops - I'm shopping there as well because I can get some continental stuff that I'm used to for cooking etc.

It annoys me if the people working in shops don't even try to speak english. Not even a simple "Hello" and "Thank you". It annoys me that there are language classes to be set by government up to teach the polish english. When we came over we simply had to speak english to survive! Now they even get a polish version of the AIB website! There are polish announcements in DUNNES (maybe it's just for the polish girls sitting at the register to tell her to call someone - I don't know). I know that other nationalities working in DELL startet ranting because the polish are getting their training material in polish and the others (the french, the germans, the spanish and the italian) had to live with the english manuals. VODAFONE and O2 are offering cheap calls to Europe mainland. Right - to Poland and eastern Europe. Great! Maybe the other nationalities want to call for little money at home as well?

Do you see the polish integrating themself to irish society? Ever seen them in pubs except the polish bar in Henry street? Ever seen them taking part in cultural events like, lets say, Daghda performances or the Belltable? Just see them fishing together at steamboat quai and getting boozed in Arthurs Quai Park.

And if I read this: http://breakingnews.ie/story.asp?j=11947948&p=yy947994&n=11948036 I'm very, very grateful to them (even if I personally not affected).

I think the irish government was just crazy to open the market to whatever happens. Walk along O'Connel Street and you merely hear polish. And next years we are getting the Bulgarians and Romanians as well. Bulgarians are nice and friendly people. But from what we know from the countries on the continent the Romanians are... Well we all will see...

I'm ranting because we have in Germany at the very moment a big discussion about integration of the foreigners into the german society. We have a huge amount of turkish workers which came in the 50s and 60s to Germany. Now the third generation is living there and even they aren't integradet. There is an "parallel society" existing - and they don't mingle. They live for their rules but want to take the most out of Germany without participating. And I'm afraid that the polish community will do the same here - sticking together but sucking out Ireland...

I'm open to any discussion!

IB

Chong

Rant Mc Rant Rant!

Btw you are not the only foreigner on the Limerick board, I am Dutch and am proud of it.

Inge Binge

Willstev wrote:

Rant Mc Rant Rant!

Btw you are not the only foreigner on the Limerick board, I am Dutch and am proud of it.

Goedemorgen! Hoe gaat het met u?

Thats ok... We can't choose were we are born

Dag dag!

IB

sioda

Inge gotta agree with you here. I think Ireland has been way too welcoming to the polish people. As u said you HAD to have english when you arrived I dont think its rite for these people to waltz in and get everything. Can you imagine if we turned up in Poland and demanded the same we'd be laughed out of it.

Unfortunatly its not really their fault stupid government and the welcoming arms to just about everyone its all just crap more of my taxes not helping out me.

Sorry Bill mind says people stupid hands type ppl:o

bazz26

To be honest folks I really have no problem with people from other countries (including the Polish) coming over here to work. There are alot of them working in my company. They do tend to make an effort to speak English even though it is probably an alien language to them. I know in my company there are english speaking classes organised for foreign workers to help them settle.

I would think a similar thing is encountered in other countries with the Irish, granted even on holidays in France, Spain, etc do the Irish bother to try and speak the local language? We(myself included) just say "ah hell, I'm only here for a short time, so why bother trying." So we go around asking the locals if they speak English. I have also found the Polish to be good workers, they work any hours they are given.

Sunn

hmm.. odd dicussion. some interesting points raised.

I think like alot of people most polish are here just to earn some good money to support families etc. Some are here to get better education, maybe something they were not able to afford.

Alot of people i talk to share similar views as you inge.

and i do worry that parts of our society will become isolated .. and i am sure more social problems will be encountered with the influx of more eastern europeans. I am not saying they are trouble makers but issues of housing and work placements are bound to become problems

although i am thinking of moving to spain to sponge of their country for a whilelol

billy the squid

This timebomb had to land here didn't it :rolleyes:

Aaaaaanyway, here goes.

If I talk to my non-irish colleagues (spanish, french and german EDIT: dutch as well) they all get a bit annoyed about the Polish. We all agree that it seems that this country is taken over by this nationality. I have no problems with polish (or baltic) shops - I'm shopping there as well because I can get some continental stuff that I'm used to for cooking etc.

The Polish are no different than the Germans or the Dutch in Limerick in My opinion, they are all EU citezens and are perfectly entitled to be here.

It annoys me if the people working in shops don't even try to speak english. Not even a simple "Hello" and "Thank you". It annoys me that there are language classes to be set by government up to teach the polish english. When we came over we simply had to speak english to survive! Now they even get a polish version of the AIB website! There are polish announcements in DUNNES (maybe it's just for the polish girls sitting at the register to tell her to call someone - I don't know). I know that other nationalities working in DELL startet ranting because the polish are getting their training material in polish and the others (the french, the germans, the spanish and the italian)

How does Polish manuals for Dell employees affect you. I think there are more serious things to worry about with regard to Dell. i. e. charging outsorced workers more for their lunch than everyone else in their canteen. It is an easy way to get around wage laws. Pay everyone the same and claw back what you can from the outsourced worker, thus leaving them with less.

VODAFONE and O2 are offering cheap calls to Europe mainland. Right - to Poland and eastern Europe. Great! Maybe the other nationalities want to call for little money at home as well?

Vodafone, O2, AIB and Dunnes Stores policy is not a Limerick Issue. Again, how does an AIB site in Polish affect you. If you look aroudn the internet you will probably find a google site in Chinese.

Do you see the polish integrating themself to irish society? Ever seen them in pubs except the polish bar in Henry street? Ever seen them taking part in cultural events like, lets say, Daghda performances or the Belltable? Just see them fishing together at steamboat quai and getting boozed in Arthurs Quai Park.

There were Polish in the St. Patrick's Day parade if i am not mistaken. There are eastern Europeans writing for the Limerick Leader, those are the only things i can think of right now, but I am sure there are more.

And if I read this: http://breakingnews.ie/story.asp?j=1...994&n=11948036 I'm very, very grateful to them (even if I personally not affected).

The Irish are no strangers to Social Welfare fraud.

I think the irish government was just crazy to open the market to whatever happens. Walk along O'Connel Street and you merely hear polish. And next years we are getting the Bulgarians and Romanians as well. Bulgarians are nice and friendly people. But from what we know from the countries on the continent the Romanians are... Well we all will see...

Bit of a generalisation there, no?

I'm ranting because we have in Germany at the very moment a big discussion about integration of the foreigners into the german society. We have a huge amount of turkish workers which came in the 50s and 60s to Germany. Now the third generation is living there and even they aren't integradet. There is an "parallel society" existing - and they don't mingle. They live for their rules but want to take the most out of Germany without participating. And I'm afraid that the polish community will do the same here - sticking together but sucking out Ireland...

There are numerous differences between Turkish in Germany and Polish in Ireland.

Turkish are mostly muslim and have a completely different way of life to those of us with a Christian upbringing. The poles would be Christian. It would be my belief that the Poles here are only short term, staying long enough to make a few bob before they go hoem to their families. Also it is worth remembering that Poland is in the EU and turkey is not.

Inge gotta agree with you here. I think Ireland has been way too welcoming to the polish ppl. As u said you HAD to have english when you arrived I dont think its rite for these ppl to waltz in and get everything. Can you imagine if we turned up in Poland and demanded the same we'd be laughed out of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdwBg3oLr28&search=south%20park%20jobs

Also sioda, i refer you to the rules on txt spk

Sunn

good points billy.

Inge Binge

bazz26 wrote:

I would think a similar thing is encountered in other countries with the Irish, granted even on holidays in France, Spain, etc do the Irish bother to try and speak the local language?

Look, you just go to a holiday and don't spend a part of your working life in France. Nobody excpect you to be fluent in catalan for a five-day-trip to Barcelona. But you should have at least some BASIC levels of the language of the country you want to work and LIVE in.

In addition to my first post: This situation seems to create a slightly anti-foreigner atmosphere here now. And this touches me as a foreigner because it is not my fault nor was this atmosphere like thise bevore they arrived. I'm curious how long the irish society will be that warm welcoming be as I got to know them (difficult grammatical contruct... sorry ).

IB

Vegeta

I personally have no problem with any nationality coming to Ireland

I think you may be right about the integration aspect though. I don't think its lack of effort on their behalf, i think its the fact that employers and the government are making it easier for them to survive here without having to fully integrate

If i went to live in Germany and every where I went (work, shops, pubs etc) spoke english, would i learn German. Hell no.

I think the Polish have a lot of admirable traits and have made a great contribution to Ireland as have people from Spain, Germany, France etc.

I don't like the left hand drive cars though

um7y1h83ge06nx

Good discussion, and good points by nearly everyone.

Maybe they could be better integrated alright, I haven't really spoken to many Poles, the ones I did seem sound.

It is strange alright that we have geared things so much towards Poles. There was even an informational programme for Poles on the TV a few weeks ago. I guess they are the biggest foreign population in the country.

A possible reason we have being so accomodating to them is that Polish people seem to have a reputation for being good workers. The powers that be probably see plenty of opportunities to use (abuse?) them.

Seeing as they are very eager to work, they probably have more money than other recent immigrants and so shops, pubs, and banks see them as a new and important target audience for their goods and services.

Inge Binge

billy the squid wrote:

The Polish are no different than the Germans or the Dutch in Limerick in My opinion, they are all EU citezens and are perfectly entitled to be here.

I don't say "send them away"! I'd prefer some regulation like the rest of Europe did.

billy the squid wrote:

How does Polish manuals for Dell employees affect you.

This does affect me as I'm part of the foreign community (even if there no "community" for french, spanish or germans exist)

billy the squid wrote:

I think there are more serious things to worry about with regard to Dell. i. e. charging outsorced workers more for their lunch than everyone else in their canteen. It is an easy way to get around wage laws. Pay everyone the same and claw back what you can from the outsourced worker, thus leaving them with less.

This doesn't apply only to polish I think. But this has nothing to do with my OP - it's not a DELL thread

billy the squid wrote:

Vodafone, O2, AIB and Dunnes Stores policy is not a Limerick Issue. Again, how does an AIB site in Polish affect you. If you look aroudn the internet you will probably find a google site in Chinese.

For chinese people living in Ireland? I'm surprised!

billy the squid wrote:

There were Polish in the St. Patrick's Day parade if i am not mistaken.

Maybe there were no particular french or german parts because those nationalities are integrated?

billy the squid wrote:

There are eastern Europeans writing for the Limerick Leader, those are the only things i can think of right now, but I am sure there are more.

I have to admit I got this offer as well but I think I'm not good enough in writing

billy the squid wrote:

The Irish are no strangers to Social Welfare fraud.

I've pointed this out because other (and longer established) nationalities have to suffer of the behavior of those new entrants. You wouldn't be happy if the irish in the UK would be mistreated because of the pakistanies...

billy the squid wrote:

Bit of a generalisation there, no?

Just my observations in general

billy the squid wrote:

There are numerous differences between Turkish in Germany and Polish in Ireland.

Indeed - different cultural background. The general direction in Germany is now "If you don't obey the rules for living in Germany then you are free to leave". This includes speaking the language of your host country.

billy the squid wrote:

Also it is worth remembering that Poland is in the EU and turkey is not.

God forbid - but this is my personal opinion...

I know, it's not a particular Limerick thread but it just came to my mind to post it here because a)I'm living here in Limerick and b) thats the only part of boards.ie where I am regularely posting

IB

Vegeta

billy the squid wrote:

How does Polish manuals for Dell employees affect you. I think there are more serious things to worry about with regard to Dell. i. e. charging outsorced workers more for their lunch than everyone else in their canteen. It is an easy way to get around wage laws. Pay everyone the same and claw back what you can from the outsourced worker, thus leaving them with less.

Well the reason for that is because Dell subsidize the catering company so all their direct employees should see the benefits of this. Why should employees who don't work for Dell benefit from this perk. Thats not Dell's fault thats the sub contractors fault for a) not negotiating a deal on the canteen or b) because they aren't making any contributions to the canteen themselves.

Slightly off topic I know

galah

funny, I know a great forum for Germans in Ireland, where exactly this has been discussed a while ago...PM for more info

My personal opinion: I think it is getting out of hand, and although I don't have a problem with Polish people, I think they should at least TRY and learn the language if they want to work in "public" jobs, like in a restaurant or in a shop - however, this applies to all foreigners...

Also, I think someone should regulate foreign cars being brought into this country better - most of them are without insurance, some visible death traps (no NCT or anything)...and tell them that drinking and driving does not mix well...

But apart from that...To be honest, I don't think the "Irish" in general are great in integrating foreigners, so some people simply don't have a chance, yet tit's demanded that they integrate - it alsways takes two to tango...

Inge Binge

galah wrote:

funny, I know a great forum for Germans in Ireland, where exactly this has been discussed a while ago...PM for more info

I've been a part of it But we shared only German views and now I'm courious about the irish view And you know how it is: if there are a few germans criticising something in realation to foreigners then there are always some do-gooder calling you a racist. the newest trend from Germany: you don't call them "Auslaender" (foreigner) anymore - this are now "Menschen mit Migrationshintergrund" (people with a migrational background). This PC-thing at home is getting ridiculous!

IB

billy the squid

Well the reason for that is because Dell subsidize the catering company so all their direct employees should see the benefits of this. Why should employees who don't work for Dell benefit from this perk. Thats not Dell's fault thats the sub contractors fault for a) not negotiating a deal on the canteen or b) because they aren't making any contributions to the canteen themselves.

Slightly off topic I know

If they are working on Dell's lines for either a contractor or Dell themselves, then they should be afforded the same lever of service.

Anyway, to get back on topic

funny, I know a great forum for Germans in Ireland, where exactly this has been discussed a while ago...PM for more info

Actually, i think its an american site with an Irish forum, moderated by an English moderator.

I don't say "send them away"! I'd prefer some regulation like the rest of Europe did.

And the economies of the rest of Europe are suffering while ours is booming.

This does affect me as I'm part of the foreign community (even if there no "community" for french, spanish or germans exist)

This is not what I asked, I asked HOW it effects you. You are not Polish, you don't have to pick up literature in Polish if you cannot speak the language.

Maybe there were no particular french or german parts because those nationalities are integrated?

I didn't say there was a specific Polish float in the parade did I? No, I did not. I just said there were Poles in the Parade. There was a group marching in the parade from numerous other countries including Poles, Brazillians, Russians, amongst other european nations, however there were polls in many of the other exhibits. What is your point.

I've pointed this out because other (and longer established) nationalities have to suffer of the behavior of those new entrants. You wouldn't be happy if the irish in the UK would be mistreated because of the pakistanies...

What? you linked to a story about foreign nationals committing Social Welfare fraud in an effort to further your case. I pointed out that the Irish themselves are no strangers to Social welfare fraud. There are bad apples in every barrell. What you have to say about how Irish are treated because of the way pakistanis act in England is irrelavent.

Just my observations in general

Opinion in a bucket is worth exactly one bucket.

mysterious

Limerick seems to be popular place to work and live amongst the foriegners...
Limerick I heard had the first Polish pub outside of the Capital, It has it's own Polish supplement in the Limerick Leader.

If there are happy here and are working here, I don't see what the problelm is, afterall The city is growing and there is plenty of jobs here


Jobs.ie will tell you this.

Vegeta

billy the squid wrote:

What? you linked to a story about foreign nationals committing Social Welfare fraud in an effort to further your case. I pointed out that the Irish themselves are no strangers to Social welfare fraud. There are bad apples in every barrell. What you have to say about how Irish are treated because of the way pakistanis act in England is irrelavent.

It is relavent, the OP as a German in Ireland who has obviously gone to the effort to integrate well doesn't want to be tarred with the same brush as Polish people under one big banner of "foreign nationals" If the Polish community do something awful it would be unfair to say those foreign nationals are ruining things in Ireland as this would include the OP.

Just like if the pakistanis did something horrible in england it would be unfair to group the Irish with them

billy the squid

It is relavent, the OP as a German in Ireland who has obviously gone to the effort to integrate well doesn't want to be tarred with the same brush as Polish people under one big banner of "foreign nationals" If the Polish community do something awful it would be unfair to say those foreign nationals are ruining things in Ireland as this would include the OP.

Just like if the pakistanis did something horrible in england it would be unfair to group the Irish with them

I think she underestimates the Irish. I think we can tell the difference between a German and a Pole.

Can you enlighten me as to when an Irish person suffered racism because of the actions of a Pakistani in the UK. I think even the English would be able to tell the difference between an Irishman and a Pakistani.

sioda

What really does bother me about the influx of foreign nationals is their complete ignorance of the laws in ireland. Things such as re regestration of cars road law in general. The one that really galls me is the drinking in Public, if I attempted to drink a can of lager strolling down cruises street I'd be locked up but fine for the eastern Europeans, same could be said for the outside bar that Arthurs Quay park has become.

Nebody who fishes locally knows drag netting is illegal but it isn't in parts of eastern europe thus it is now done here.

What i can see happening and I dont like it is the one rule for them and one for us.

Inge Binge

billy the squid wrote:

Actually, i think its an american site with an Irish forum, moderated by an English moderator.

I'm quite sure i know what forum he means. And thisone is according to DENIC (german WHOIS) hosted and owned in Germany. One of the moderators is living in Germany the other german is living near Dublin. But anyway...

billy the squid wrote:

And the economies of the rest of Europe are suffering while ours is booming.

Yes - you're right. Never doubted that - did I?

billy the squid wrote:

This is not what I asked, I asked HOW it effects you. You are not Polish, you don't have to pick up literature in Polish if you cannot speak the language.

Read it again: This does affect me as I'm part of the foreign community. I just want to have the same profit in this country where i am paying the same tax as the polish. Nobody is offering german leaflets, nobody is offering french radio spots about H&S. I'm mixing here my views and the views of other nationalities (which are my friends) in the postings. Maybe I should say: the other nationalities want to be treated equally: if there are polish manuals in DELL they expect spanish ones as well. Is it so complicated to understand that we want to be on the same level?

billy the squid wrote:

I didn't say there was a specific Polish float in the parade did I? No, I did not. I just said there were Poles in the Parade. There was a group marching in the parade from numerous other countries including Poles, Brazillians, Russians, amongst other european nations, however there were polls in many of the other exhibits. What is your point.

You didn't said "There was a polish float in the parade". You said "There were Polish in the St. Patrick's Day parade if i am not mistaken." - in a discussion about migration and taking part of daily life it can be easily be misunderstood as "They are migrated - they even showed themself as a polish community in the parade".

billy the squid wrote:

What? you linked to a story about foreign nationals committing Social Welfare fraud in an effort to further your case. I pointed out that the Irish themselves are no strangers to Social welfare fraud. There are bad apples in every barrell. What you have to say about how Irish are treated because of the way pakistanis act in England is irrelavent.

You might not have got what I've tried to say: all foreigners have to suffer because of the abuse of some specific nationalities pointed out in the report. I made the irish-pakistani-in-UK image to point out that you, if you would live (as a foreigner) in the UK, have to suffer from some regulation caused by another notionality in the Uk. I have choosen "Irish" and "Pakistani" in "UK" just because it came as the first image to my mind. I could say as well "chinese" and "swiss" in "russia"

IB

Vegeta

billy the squid wrote:

I think she underestimates the Irish. I think we can tell the difference between a German and a Pole.

Can you enlighten me as to when an Irish person suffered racism because of the actions of a Pakistani in the UK. I think even the English would be able to tell the difference between an Irishman and a Pakistani.

Yeah but can we tell the difference between a Pole and a Latvian??? They all seem to get lumped into the term "eastern european"

We never said any irish suffered as a result of the actions of a Pakistani but I am sure some people from India have. It was given as a hypothetical example

Inge Binge

mysterious wrote:

Limerick seems to be popular place to work and live amongst the foriegners...

When I was suffering from work in DELL I've asked a slovak guy why he has choosen Limerick. His answer was: "Because it was near to the Shannon Airport!"

I've choosen Limerick because I got in Germany the offer to work in Shannon - a few years ago...

IB

billy the squid

This does affect me as I'm part of the foreign community. I just want to have the same profit in this country where i am paying the same tax as the polish. Nobody is offering german leaflets, nobody is offering french radio spots about H&S. I'm mixing here my views and the views of other nationalities (which are my friends) in the postings. Maybe I should say: the other nationalities want to be treated equally: if there are polish manuals in DELL they expect spanish ones as well. Is it so complicated to understand that we want to be on the same level?

You are shifting your position now from your original post. your initial problem was that there were too many poles in the country. here is what you said

How do you (the irish) see the amount of foreigners here? I'm talking especially about the Polish.

If I talk to my non-irish colleagues (spanish, french and german EDIT: dutch as well) they all get a bit annoyed about the Polish. We all agree that it seems that this country is taken over by this nationality.

As for the provision of Literature in German, then you will need to get your German friends to request it. You said earlier that you turned down an offer to write for the Ethnic Limerick section of the Leader. Well, that could be the reason why there is no German column in the paper now.

Out of interest, was the census availible in German?

Yeah but can we tell the difference between a Pole and a Latvian??? They all seem to get lumped into the term "eastern european"

Should we have to. The propper thing to do is to base your atitudes of a person on their actions rather than what country or background they have.

back to Inga's posts

When I was suffering from work in DELL I've asked a slovak guy why he has choosen Limerick. His answer was: "Because it was near to the Shannon Airport!"

So? You came to Limerick because it was near the Shannon Free Zone. What is the difference, you could have gone to Dublin or Cork when your work at Shannon ended. Instead you went to Limerick because it was near, just the same as your former Dell collegue went to Limerick because it was near Shannon Airport.

Vegeta

billy the squid wrote:

Should we have to. The propper thing to do is to base your atitudes of a person on their actions rather than what country or background they have..

YES of course we should have to because if a Polish or Latvian person kills a person I don't want to hear Irish people saying "Oh those foreign nationals are nothing but trouble" giving our german poster a bad name.

I agree we should base our attitudes on actions but humans don't, we learn through experience and the only experience/exposure we are getting to the majority of foreign nationals at the moment is through the news and papers which is usually bad news

galah

The census was not available in German (but in French, Italian and a whole host of other languages). In a way, i feel "honoured" that the government assumes all Germans speak English and don't need documentation in German - but in other ways, I think it's a little unfair - i doubt, for example, that the Italian population is larger than the German...so why not translate it into all European languages?

Inge Binge

billy the squid wrote:

You are shifting your position now from your original post. your initial problem was that there were too many poles in the country. here is what you said

you don't want to understand me, right? after the proem (is this word still in use today? i found it in the dictionary) that my view is that this country is taken over by the polish i came to my main view: the integration issue.

billy the squid wrote:

As for the provision of Literature in German, then you will need to get your German friends to request it.

you don't want to understand me, right? none of my friends will be able to provide me any H&S leaflets in german nor will they be able to do this with DELL work instructions.

billy the squid wrote:

You said earlier that you turned down an offer to write for the Ethnic Limerick section of the Leader. Well, that could be the reason why there is no German column in the paper now.

you don't want to understand me, right? quote me please where i have complained that the limerick leader has a NOT german section and has only a POLISH section. please help me - i can't find the post where i was saying this!

billy the squid wrote:

Out of interest, was the census availible in German?

Good joke! of course not. But in inter alis in Polish if i remember correctly.

billy the squid wrote:

So? You came to Limerick because it was near the Shannon Free Zone. What is the difference, you could have gone to Dublin or Cork when your work at Shannon ended.

So? I got the job before i came to here because i was caring for those matters. I even cared to get a accomodation before i've arrived! I didn't arrived to hope to find manna provided by the irish. even the polish amassador said the polish poeple shouldn't expect to find someone waiting at the airport to take them by their hands and offer work and accomodation... (we had this in ther german forum - will take me a while to find the quote)

IB

billy the squid

you don't want to understand me, right? after the proem (is this word still in use today? i found it in the dictionary) that my view is that this country is taken over by the polish i came to my main view: the integration issue.

Can you make up your mind, are they keeping to them selves or are they taking over the country. In order to take over the country they would have to intergrate with the people already here. They would have had to ask an Irish person to produce polish leaflets at Dell, They would have had to ask an Irish person to get a column in the Liemrick Leader.

you don't want to understand me, right? none of my friends will be able to provide me any H&S leaflets in german nor will they be able to do this with DELL work instructions.

I think you misunderstood me. I said that if you want literature in German, then you and your German friends need to get together and request it from the people who provide literature.

Good joke! of course not. But in inter alis in Polish if i remember correctly.

I don't think I was joking. The Census was printed in numerous languages, I simply asked was it printed in German. What makes you think I was joking?

So? I got the job before i came to here because i was caring for those matters. I even cared to get a accomodation before i've arrived! I didn't arrived to hope to find manna provided by the irish. even the polish amassador said the polish poeple shouldn't expect to find someone waiting at the airport to take them by their hands and offer work and accomodation... (we had this in ther german forum - will take me a while to find the quote)

So there are more jobs now then there were when you came to Ireland. so what?

gaf1983

sioda wrote:

What really does bother me about the influx of foreign nationals is their complete ignorance of the laws in ireland. Things such as re regestration of cars road law in general. The one that really galls me is the drinking in Public, if I attempted to drink a can of lager strolling down cruises street I'd be locked up but fine for the eastern Europeans, same could be said for the outside bar that Arthurs Quay park has become.

Nebody who fishes locally knows drag netting is illegal but it isn't in parts of eastern europe thus it is now done here.

What i can see happening and I dont like it is the one rule for them and one for us.

Well ignorance of the law is no defence if charges were brought against such offenders, so the problem lies with the lack of enforcement of the laws. If you see people breaking the law like that and you have a problem with it you should report them to the guards.

Incidentally, oasis.gov.ie gives a pretty decent summary of the law relating to public drinking in Ireland:

oasis.gov.ie wrote:

Drinking in public

Under the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act, 1994, it is an offence for you to be so drunk in a public place that you could reasonably be presumed to be a danger to yourself or to anyone around you. If found guilty of this offence, you could be fined 127 euro and a member of the Garda Siochana can confiscate any alcohol you may be carrying.

It is illegal for a licence holder to sell alcohol in a closed container (i.e., can or bottle) for consumption off the premises in a place 100 metres from the premises. If you purchase alcohol in this way, you can be fined 300 euro by the Gardai.

While there is no national legislation prohibiting drinking in public, each local authority area is entitled to pass bye-laws prohibiting the consumption of alcohol in a public place. Contact your local authority to find out about these bye-laws in your area.

I'm not sure what Limerick City Council's stance is on the issue, if anyone does know I'd like to hear. I know that in practice most local authorities have issued bye-laws against public drinking, but there are some areas of the country where it is still perfectly legal.

Regarding the OP's complaints about company literature available in Polish but not other languages, I guess it boils down to supply and demand - due to the sheer amount of Polish people working for them, companies feel it is worthwhile to print the information in the language of so many of their employees. As only a handful of German/Dutch/French speakers would be employed the company probably feels it isn't worthwhile to pay for the translation costs for every single nationality in its employment. I think it is just a numbers game - if the company employed loads of French speakers, they'd probably feel they should publish information in French. It might have something to do with lobbying by Polish speakers in the company for such material to be printed. While I agree with you that it doesn't seem fair that you, and thousands of other immigrants, had to come to Ireland and no such provisions were made, you've probably gained in the long run by being forced into a situation were you have to use your English, so this is bound to have helped with your integration.

Inge Binge

billy, i'm not continuing this nit-picking with you. i think you are doing this on purpose... you know exactly what i mean!

if i say they are taking over this country then i say there are to much. even if they stick together or not.

i can and i do order geman books from germany. i never requested here any german book nor did i say the bookshops are providing only polish literature but not german! don't twist my words!!

regarding to the census and the "joke": you are common with the meaning word "irony" or even "subtle irony"?

end of transmission.

IB

gaf1983

billy the squid wrote:

This timebomb had to land here didn't it :rolleyes:

I wouldn't call it a timebomb, Billy, I think immigration is a very visible change in Irish society over the past 5/10 years, especially since May 2004, and it is important that people engage in clear and open debate about it. Otherwise if people don't air their concerns (or lack thereof) about immigration and its effects on society there is a risk that prejudices developed in unsubstantiated rumours may develop, which is helpful for no one.

Inge Binge

gaf1983 wrote:

Regarding the OP's complaints about company literature available in Polish but not other languages, I guess it boils down to supply and demand - due to the sheer amount of Polish people working for them, companies feel it is worthwhile to print the information in the language of so many of their employees. As only a handful of German/Dutch/French speakers would be employed the company probably feels it isn't worthwhile to pay for the translation costs for every single nationality in its employment.

I turn it to the far side: maybe it was not neccessary to provide french or german manuals because those people came with a reasonable english when they decided to work and to live in an english-speaking country? Reading a work manual can be much easier if it is in your native language...

IB

sioda

gaf1983 wrote:

Well ignorance of the law is no defence if charges were brought against such offenders, so the problem lies with the lack of enforcement of the laws. If you see people breaking the law like that and you have a problem with it you should report them to the guards.

Incidentally, oasis.gov.ie gives a pretty decent summary of the law relating to public drinking in Ireland:



I'm not sure what Limerick City Council's stance is on the issue, if anyone does know I'd like to hear. I know that in practice most local authorities have issued bye-laws against public drinking, but there are some areas of the country where it is still perfectly legal.

Regarding the OP's complaints about company literature available in Polish but not other languages, I guess it boils down to supply and demand - due to the sheer amount of Polish people working for them, companies feel it is worthwhile to print the information in the language of so many of their employees. As only a handful of German/Dutch/French speakers would be employed the company probably feels it isn't worthwhile to pay for the translation costs for every single nationality in its employment. I think it is just a numbers game - if the company employed loads of French speakers, they'd probably feel they should publish information in French. It might have something to do with lobbying by Polish speakers in the company for such material to be printed. While I agree with you that it doesn't seem fair that you, and thousands of other immigrants, had to come to Ireland and no such provisions were made, you've probably gained in the long run by being forced into a situation were you have to use your English, so this is bound to have helped with your integration.

Drinking on the street in Limerick is illegal as anyone at the screen on saturday will tell you

gaf1983

Inge Binge wrote:

i can and i do order geman books from germany. i never requested here any german book nor did i say the bookshops are providing only polish literature but not german! don't twist my words!!
IB

I think Billy was referring to company literature, as in Health & Safety/Training manuals.

Inge Binge

gaf1983 wrote:

I think Billy was referring to company literature, as in Health & Safety/Training manuals.

ok, my fault! i translate "literature" with books etc. not enough assimilated enough, huh?!

billy the squid

Inge Binge wrote:

billy, i'm not continuing this nit-picking with you. i think you are doing this on purpose... you know exactly what i mean!

Yeah i think I do, it is OK for you and your German friends to come here but not the Polish. I think you made that clear.

if i say they are taking over this country then i say there are to much. even if they stick together or not.

The German people are free to come here just as the poles are. The fact that they haven't is not the fault of the polish.

i can and i do order geman books from germany. i never requested here any german book nor did i say the bookshops are providing only polish literature but not german! don't twist my words!!

Have you tried requesting material in German from Irish government bodies. Perhaps the reason Literature from Irish government bodies is availible in polish is because those poles here requested it. If enough germans requested it, it would be in German.

regarding to the census and the "joke": you are common with the meaning word "irony" or even "subtle irony"?

I don't see why you are getting you knickers in a knot because I asked a serious question. The census was printed in over a Dozen languages, I simply asked was it printed in German. As was posted above, it was printed in French and Italian.

to say "of course it wasn't printed in German" is just playing the victim where it is not neccessary.

end of transmission.

IB

:S

Inge Binge

billy the squid wrote:

Yeah i think I do, it is OK for you and your German friends to come here but not the Polish. I think you made that clear.

Yes. Exactly! We are the better humans! We are worth living here not they! We want to rule this country! They are the second-class foreigners! Is it that what you want to hear???

I give up! You simply don't want to recognize that I'm talking about INTEGRATION, I-N-T-E-G-R-A-T-I-O-N!!! Not LIVING PERMISSON!!! The first step is learning the language of the country you are living in!

I really give up!!! I'm not going to discuss this with you further.

IB

radioman

I personally find the foreigners living and working here, especially the Polish, to be some of the nicest, friendliest people you could ever meet, and I think a lot of Irish people could learn a lot from them in terms of politeness and courtesy.

sioda

Inge Binge wrote:

I give up! You simply don't want to recognize that I'm talking about INTEGRATION, I-N-T-E-G-R-A-T-I-O-N!!! Not LIVING PERMISSON!!! The first step is learning the language of the country you are living in!
IB

IB gotta side with you again learning the language is essential. Even going on holidays you learn a few phrases thus i can ask for beer and grub in nearly 15 languages . But I am personally pissed royal at the amount of people in the front of house service industries shops through restaraunts that dont speak fluent english. I should not have to give an order or ask for something more than once.

Vegeta

Billy are you purposely trying to annoy the OP, you are rushing while reading her posts or something

She never once said the Poles shouldn't be here, she would just like them to integrate a little better. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. You seem to think there is though

Paulj

I have to agree with Inge on the point about people working in shops and in the public. They should at least have an acceptable level of the local language (english). A simple "hello" does no harm either (although the Irish people working in shops often neglect to say hello also).

I also agree that integration is very important. We don't want to see polarised communities like Inge talked about with the Turks in Germany. However, maybe the reason that we see very little mixing between the Poles and other people is that a lot of them are only here short term. They come here, earn some money, then leave after 6 or 12 months and return to their families. Because there are so many of them here it is a lot easier for them to stay with the people they know. The Irish country benefits, as do the Poles. Can anyone comment if this is actually the case (that they are, for the most part here for short terms) ?

For foreigners here on a more permanent basis efforts should be made to help them 'integrate'. Not sure how this can be done though. I guess if people in general were a bit more open minded (both the Irish and the foreigners) then it would certainly help.

gaf1983

sioda wrote:

I should not have to give an order or ask for something more than once.

While I agree with you that it is vitally important that non-English native speakers is vital, especially for those involved in the hospitality sectory, I don't see the problem with customers having to repeat themselves to be understood. Making mistakes is an important part of language learning - it's annoying when they get your order wrong but it's not exactly the end of the world either. In my first part-time bar job I would often have trouble hearing customers - once giving someone a Peach Schnapps instead of a Pink Snack, or a Mars Bar instead of a Carlsberg, it's no big deal. But at least by being exposed to English speakers all day, people with poorer English dealing with customers are going to improve their English at work.

For whoever was asking earlier, the census was available in Arabic, Chinese, Czech, Estonian, French, Hungarian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Polish, Portuguese, Romanian, Russina, Slovak, Spanish, Turkish and Yoruba.

Inge Binge

Vegeta wrote:

Billy are you purposely trying to annoy the OP, you are rushing while reading her posts or something

She never once said the Poles shouldn't be here, she would just like them to integrate a little better. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. You seem to think there is though

He is moderator. He is allowed to do that. Everyone else would get a warning and a ban...

Anyway - thanks to all others! I'm happy to see that I'm not alone with my views.

IB

Karmafaerie

I always miss the start of these interesting discussions!!!:D

Anyway, here's my two cents.

The Irish in general can't complain too loudly about "foreigners invading" our country!
Over the last century and a half, millions upon millions of us have left for foreign climes.
As for the remark that the Pole made to you Inge about coming to Limerick because of the proximity to the airport, that's only natural.
Look at the Irish communities in America, and the UK.
The traditional Irish areas, are where we got off the ferries! Boston and New York in America, and Liverpool in England.
The reason this issue has come up, is the simple fact that there are so many of these "New Europeans" coming at once.
Also, people tend to asume that anyone with an East European accent is Polish, when a lot of them are Latvian, Estonian etc.
I don't believe that they are overly isolating themselves.
for instance, the Chinese population in Limerick is much more isolated and unintegrated than the Eastern Europeans.

Where I agree is in the points referring to the ignoring of Irish laws.
There is a lot of damage been done to the Irish fish stocks, and the roads are not as safe as they were before(not that that's saying much!).
I do believe that these new members of society should make a more concerted effort to learn and obey Irish laws.
How many times have you turned on the news to hear about a murder only to loose interest when you find out it's a foreign national?
Maybe the Irish should try and help these people integrate, rather than just complaining all the time!

Inge Binge

Karmafaerie wrote:

The Irish in general can't complain too loudly about "foreigners invading" our country!
Over the last century and a half, millions upon millions of us have left for foreign climes.

I'm German - I'm aloud to complain here Nobody did so far... But you are absolutely right

Karmafaerie wrote:

As for the remark that the Pole made to you Inge about coming to Limerick because of the proximity to the airport, that's only natural.
Look at the Irish communities in America, and the UK.
The traditional Irish areas, are where we got off the ferries! Boston and New York in America, and Liverpool in England.

He was from Slovakia. It's a different country. But doesn't matter.
It's maybe just because I was looking actively for a job here when I made the decision to come to Ireland. Not expecting someone who is waiting for me to offer me bed and work... I did also actively an effort to speak english. I'm feeling even confident enough to argue in an english speaking forum.

Karmafaerie wrote:

The reason this issue has come up, is the simple fact that there are so many of these "New Europeans" coming at once.

Exactly. Looks like they overrun the country.

Karmafaerie wrote:

Also, people tend to asume that anyone with an East European accent is Polish, when a lot of them are Latvian, Estonian etc.

I've learnd russian in school - i can determine between the different languages And I didn't started that generalisation - I've pointed clearly out that I'm talking about the Polish community.

Karmafaerie wrote:

I don't believe that they are overly isolating themselves.
for instance, the Chinese population in Limerick is much more isolated and unintegrated than the Eastern Europeans.

That's true as well and I observed this earlier. I have an Japanese friend and she told me that it is because of the very different culture. And asian people can't drink much alcohol - they are deadly drunk after one pint because in their stomach is an enzym missing that handels alcohol

Karmafaerie wrote:

Where I agree is in the points referring to the ignoring of Irish laws.
There is a lot of damage been done to the Irish fish stocks, and the roads are not as safe as they were before(not that that's saying much!).

Uh uh. Don't blame the foreigners for accidents! Irish drivers... Tis is a special species Why? Well, you get a provisional license, try to make the test for the "real" license and if you fail this test (which is a proof of non existing ability to drive safely on the road) you can still drive with your L plate...

Karmafaerie wrote:

Maybe the Irish should try and help these people integrate, rather than just complaining all the time!

How? Random house visits? Setting up a "Invite a Polish once a week for dinner" initiative?

IB

Karmafaerie

Inge Binge wrote:

I'm German - I'm aloud to complain here Nobody did so far... But you are absolutely right

Maybe not personally, but us Irish as a nation know what kind of backlash can come when too many of us arrived in foreign countries.
Signs reading ""No Blacks, No Dogs, No Irish" were very common in English pubs right up to about 20 years ago.

Inge Binge wrote:

He was from Slovakia. It's a different country. But doesn't matter.
It's maybe just because I was looking actively for a job here when I made the decision to come to Ireland. Not expecting someone who is waiting for me to offer me bed and work... I did also actively an effort to speak english. I'm feeling even confident enough to argue in an english speaking forum.

When you were coming over, I'm guessing it was for different reasons.
A lot of these people came out of something akin to desperation. Maybe their family needed money, maybe they were saving to buy a house, or get married, but coming here was the only way to do this!
You, being the well educated, multilingual, dynamic Young German woman that I'm sure you are ( ), would have had a lot of opportunities back home as well. You came by choice, while they came because they had no other choice!

Inge Binge wrote:

Uh uh. Don't blame the foreigners for accidents! Irish drivers... Tis is a special species Why? Well, you get a provisional license, try to make the test for the "real" license and if you fail this test (which is a proof of non existing ability to drive safely on the road) you can still drive with your L plate...

I was just pointing out that as was stated earlier, a lot of the cars being brought over, are nowhere near road worthy, plus while there are a lot (One is too many!) of Irish who drink and drive, a lot of the Eastern Europeans do this constantly! every second time I'm going down a country road at night I seem to have near misses with some of them.



Personally I've gotten on really well with nearly all of the foreign nationals I've met.
Well that's not strictly true!
I was slapped by a drunk Polish girl who took offence to my CCCP t-shirt!!!:D

New_Departure06

I agree with the starter of this thread. PCness has taken over. Our reputation for generosity has been taken advantage of. We need to restrict access to Romanians and Bulgarians and am glad the govt are hinting strongly at this - and annoyed that Enda Kenny wants to open the borders to them. Isn't 200,000 enough for Enda! :rolleyes:

Inge Binge

Karmafaerie wrote:

I was slapped by a drunk Polish girl who took offence to my CCCP t-shirt!!!:D

Going strongly off-topic: i have one too... CCCP t-shirt. i suppose we are shopping in the same place (if you got it in limerick and so far i know only one place in limerick that sold this kind of stuff ).

IB

sioda

New_Departure06 wrote:

I agree with the starter of this thread. PCness has taken over. Our reputation for generosity has been taken advantage of. We need to restrict access to Romanians and Bulgarians and am glad the govt are hinting strongly at this - and annoyed that Enda Kenny wants to open the borders to them. Isn't 200,000 enough for Enda! :rolleyes:

Ireland does not need any more Romanians we have got enough already. Gotta agree the PC nature of Ireland is enough to make you sick we cannot afford to be the drop off point for every wandering immigrant who feels like a better life at the expense of ordinary decent tax payers.

Crea

sioda wrote:

Ireland does not need any more Romanians we have got enough already. Gotta agree the PC nature of Ireland is enough to make you sick we cannot afford to be the drop off point for every wandering immigrant who feels like a better life at the expense of ordinary decent tax payers.

Most of these immigrants are the "ordinary decent taxpayers" that you speak of. They are here doing the work that the Irish people will not deign to do. I worked in a company where alot of the assembly line workers are foreign because the company find it so difficult to get Irish to do it. The same goes for my cousin who runs a pub. He is desperately trying to get Irish people to work in the bar because he is aware that the tourists want to see that but he is finding it very difficult, especially to get the Irish to work the more anti-social hours. BTW a days basic wage in Ireland is equivilant to a weeks wage in Poland - a bit of a no brainer as to why so many come here.
If these people are happy to come and do the work that the Irish are unwilling to do then they are more than welcome if you ask me.
I agree that if they are working with the pubic then they should have good fluency in English but it's up to the employers to ensure this.
I worked in Japan where most of the English speaking community socialised together and only really socialised with Japanese who were fairly fluent in English. Where I worked most people were there 1-2 years and only bothered to learn the most basic Japanese. The last thing you want to do is head out for a pint and struggle to speak in foreign language - it hardly makes for a relaxing night out, unless of course you're very committed to learn the language. This is probably the case for the Polish but it would be hypocritical of the Irish to critisise as we're just as bad when we go abroad in large groups.

billy the squid

agree with the starter of this thread. PCness has taken over. Our reputation for generosity has been taken advantage of. We need to restrict access to Romanians and Bulgarians and am glad the govt are hinting strongly at this - and annoyed that Enda Kenny wants to open the borders to them. Isn't 200,000 enough for Enda!

Why single out Romanians and Bulgarians for restrictions, there are 25 other countries in the EU. Why not restrict the Brittish or the French, or dare i say it, the Germans. I am just curious why you should single one or two member states out. There is nothing stopping 200,000 Germans coming to Ireland. (Nothing stopped 200,000 Germans going to Poland in the 1930s)

As for the CCCP thing, considering it represents the name of a country which occupied poland it would be like walking into a wolfetones concert with a union Jack tee-shirt.