Where are all these IT jobs??

katyk

Im an IT graduate, I graduated in 2002. When I was in college we were to do work experience in 3rd yr,however there was no work out there and little or no companies taking students, therefore only a hanfdul of people in the class got experience and I unfortunately wasnt one of them. I ended up working in a call centre for the summer. So then after graduation, every job I applied for required something ridiculous like 5-7 yrs experience, so me along with alot of others in my class had no choice but to get a job in an unrelated field. I went into customer services for 2yrs, then went travelling and now Im back and in a project assistant job, i.e I'm an administrator. The job spec the agency gave me for the job doesnt reflect what I actually do, infact what they really gave me was the spec for my supervisors job. I needed to pay off a few debts so have been in no position really to take it up with the agency. I am getting no experience in anything IT related and as Im on contract for a particular project I have no opportunity to gain any IT experience. Anyway my point is, I keep hearing that there is a huge IT shortage and we are going to need to take in graduates from other countries. But what I cant understand, is if there is a huge IT shortage how come I cant get a job in IT. Ive been looking for jobs everyday on the net,and theres always something in the job requirements that I dont have. I know I dont have work experience in IT but surely my degree stands for something? I have recently decided that Im going to to go in a different direction with my career altogether, but while Im getting the wheels in motion for that,Im searching for a job in IT. I will say there is alot of jobs out there, but not for people with degrees and little experience. I even applied for a job with a company advertising for graduates, but I didnt meet the requirement that I had to be a graduate from 04/05!! Anyway, let me know if there is anyone out there in a similar position??

Ginger

Since i do most of my work on windows, this will be very windows centric, if your specialisations are other than that, stop reading now :P

Couple of ways to get back into the IT business, get an MCAD if you are into the Windows development track (handy with all the .NET work coming out)..

Again on the windows trail if you want to go into networking get the MCSE. While they are nothing special really, its just looks really good on your CV, especially if you are looking for those type of jobs.

Without the experience you will be going back to a graduate level job. Always pitch yourself at the correct level, and tailor the CV to the job you are going for. At one point, i had a 5 different CVs to 5 different jobs, each highlighting what they wanted to see rather than just a generic thing.

best of luck in the job hunt

Moonbeam

Apply for more realisitc IT jobs and not ones that require lots of experience.

Maybe work in techsupport for a bit ,it isn't the most exciting or impressive of jobs but it is IT experience and and IT job.

Smoggy

I think that employers might be worried that you have lost any skills that you have gained through out your degree and that your period of working out of IT will accentuate this. Ginger has the answer is to take a MS exam ( or any other related exam in your chosen field ) to show to these employers that you have marketable skills. I would buy an exam book , with course CD and examples for your selected exam. Read the book inside out , do the questions and sit the exam. It might cost you as few hundered ( 50 for a book and 100 for the exam ), but it will get you back up and going again.

Kai

Sorry a bit OT but does anyone know where you can sit an MCAD exam in Waterford / Kilkenny ? Ive had a look around the net but cant seem to find much.

comad

All that talk about a shortage of graduates is a load of bull. I read in the Metro about Prof. Ryan in DCU saying about importing foreign graduates to work in IT to cover a shortfall. He seems to come out with a rant like that every year to make sure he fills his Computer Science courses.

There is demand for experienced IT workers but most Irish companies are unwilling to take on and train graduates. Best bet is to take the some courses, try get your foot in the door and work your way up.

seamus

If the job you want is looking for 5-7 years experience, you're aiming too high. Don't expect to walk into a €40k a year job straight out of college. Entry level IT jobs will usually pay between €20k and €25k straight out of college. But then salaries rise quickly.
Any job that's looking for 1-2 years experience will also consider graduates (or graduates with workplace experience). At that level, they're not looking for someone who can do the job - someone who has a work ettiquette is far more desirable.

In IT, a job spec may have "requirements" but most of the time it's a best-fit policy. The more requirements a company puts down, the less chance they have of getting someone who meets them. So you've never seen windows 2003 server, but the company wants someone "familiar" with it. Apply anyway. What harm can it do?
If you get an interview, then you can do a small bit of reading up to at least familiarise yourself.

Some rules for skimming through IT jobs at the lower levels:

1. Don't let "years experience" put you off. If you think you can do the job, apply for it. But don't be ridiculous. Use a two-year rule at most (i.e. if it looks for four years and you only have one, then don't bother)
2. "Working knowledge" means "You have heard of".
3. "Or other relevant qualification" will also include your college degree.
4. If the job lists 10 requirements, and you match 7, apply for it.

Here's a good example:
http://www.irishjobs.ie/JobDesc.asp?ID=2025570&MID=824

It seems to be a push towards a server-based position. Chances are you've never touched a server, let alone built one. But there's not a whole lot of a difference. It's just a computer. You've built them before probably. "Working knowledge of SCSI and RAID". Know what "SCSI" is? Know what "RAID" is? Well done, you're qualified. If not, half an hour reading on wikipedia and you'll know enough.

Stephen

There's no Microsoft exam centre in Kilkenny. I live in Kilkenny and travel to PFH computers in Little Island, Cork (not too far, this side of the jack lynch tunnel) to do all my MS exams. That said, I'm getting paid mileage and exam fees (upon passing) to do this, so it may not be so attractive to yourself.
I think there's one in Naas but there never seems to be any vacancies to book an exam there.

DublinWriter

All the media stories about a lack of IT graduates eminate from one source - colleges.

This is because of falling numbers of people taking up IT courses and they need to protect their revenue stream.

Unlike most other regulated professions (law, medicine), there is no defined career-path for IT graduates, and I know plenty of recent IT grads like yourself sweating it out as first liners on IT Helpdesks.

I'm totally against industry qualifications such as Microsoft's for the following reasons:

1) They are temporal. Unlike a cert\diploma\degree, Your qualification can be revoked in toto if you don't spend the rest of your professional career doing the catch-up exams.

2) Most of the questions for the real exams are available on 'warez' sites on the Internet.

seamus

DublinWriter wrote:

1) They are temporal. Unlike a cert\diploma\degree, Your qualification can be revoked in toto if you don't spend the rest of your professional career doing the catch-up exams.

Well to be honest, I wouldn't be crazy about hiring someone with an IT degree but who's spent the last ten years in marketing, for example. It's a sector where you must continually educate yourself or die, degree or no degree.

2) Most of the questions for the real exams are available on 'warez' sites on the Internet.

The newer exams (for the 2003/XP courses) run on a much tighter ship than their predecessors. Questions are randomly changed and removed or added. I remember seeing a "braindump" for the Server 2003 exam, and it was 400 pages long, with something like 250 questions. You're only asked 40 in the exam. One person can't possibly hope to remember enough of those 250 questions to pass the exam, when only one in 6 questions will appear, and some questions (e.g. the simulators) can never be in the braindumps.
At that point, a book listing all of the questions and their answers is just a piece of study material. It may only marginally help you increase your score.

DublinWriter

seamus wrote:

Well to be honest, I wouldn't be crazy about hiring someone with an IT degree but who's spent the last ten years in marketing, for example.

I would...especially if I was a software house with product to sell!

The big misconception about IT is that all careers in it are primarilly technically focused.

From my experience, about 70% of the people I work with in IT departments are seriously non-technical and wouldn't know how to either program or take a card out of a PC.

People such as IT Managers\IT Directors\Business Analysts\Project Managers rarely have any in-depth knowledge of the technology.

Ginger

While they are temporal they do show that you are keeping up with technology rather than relying on your knowledge of say NT4.0 trying to run a 2003 server farm.

IT is a keep learning or get out type of sector, thats part of the fun of it really.

As for the warez thing, as Seamus pointed out the new 2003 and newer 2005 stuff is a bit more random.

The suggestion of using the MS exams is more to supplement your knowledge rather than define what you know.

JimmySmith

I guess you are unfortunate to find out the hard way that a degree realy doesnt count for much to an employer in the IT biz. It does show that your mind works in a certain way, but little else.There are jobs out there for qualified people, but until you get a few years under your belt you are not really qualified (i know your degree says you are though). Its kind of a catch 22.

Also this talk of not being enough people to fill jobs is just IBEC and the like trying to get the govt to open the borders to CHEAP LABOUR. There are plenty of people here willing to work in IT, but not willing to be paid under market rates. This talk about not enough people is bull. If they went back to traingin grads, then problem solved. They would be training the next generation of experts from the pool that is already here. What they actually want are highly qualified people to work for less money than the stock of Irish and European highly qualified people.

leeroybrown

Graduates who get out of sync with the 'milk round' and the graduate recruitment programmes are always going to find it more difficult. These programmes are specifically designed to recruit new people with in specific training timelines and are focused towards getting new graduates not people who have been out of college for a year. I think the colleges should make it clearer to students the importance of staying within this cycle to maximise their employment potential.

A lot of employers (particularly smaller companies) are not in a position where they can employ someone who has a degree and no experience unless they present themselves as being competent and skilled. A large percentage of college graduates can't even pretend to be either of these so you need to focus on showing employers that you are different.

As Seamus points out, jobs that look for 5 to 7 years of experience are well out of your range. Even people with 3 years of experience will have difficulty passing the interview screening process for these. Someone with no relevant experience doesn't stand a chance.

Also, if you know someone who works in the areas that you are applying for get them to look at your CV. When I screen CV's before interviews I always see plenty that are not focused towards the job being applied for and that portray a complete lack of knoledge in a single slip/error.

DJDC

Also this talk of not being enough people to fill jobs is just IBEC and the like trying to get the govt to open the borders to CHEAP LABOUR. There are plenty of people here willing to work in IT, but not willing to be paid under market rates. This talk about not enough people is bull. If they went back to traingin grads, then problem solved. They would be training the next generation of experts from the pool that is already here. What they actually want are highly qualified people to work for less money than the stock of Irish and European highly qualified people.

Jimmysmith just hit the nail on the head.There is very few places on graduate programs for IT people anymore.Think about it,there is so many people finishing certs,diplomas and degrees in IT related qualifications every year.Every regional IOT,university and polytechnic pours out thousands of graduates every year.Every IOT has seemed to explode and oversupply its IT department.Yes there has been a downturn but there is still a market surpulus of young graduates.
Another factor that has to be taken into account is that the quality of student taking IT has dropped in recent years due to the drop in leaving cert points.Companies will only hire the best of the best because they can be so selective due to the sheer quantity of IT professionals.
How does a graduate get a job?Its simply really.Be the best you can be.Get a top class degree from a good university.Get decent work experience and be confident and informed in interviews.If you are good enough you will do well and be earning good money by the age of 30.The problem is so many "IT graduates" these days just arent good enough for the task.They have mediocre leaving certs,average degrees and no work experience.The choice is there.You put in the hard work between the ages of 17 to 24 and reap the rewards.Otherwise you will end up on the scrapheap like so many others.Long gone are the days when one could just walk into a good software/IT job.

leeroybrown

DJDC wrote:

Companies will only hire the best of the best because they can be so selective due to the sheer quantity of IT professionals.

Agreed. I've seen plenty of situations where after 20+ CV's and 5+ interviews a position was left unfilled despite a requirement and it was generally the correct decision.

deadfingers

There is a definite decrease in the number of people taking IT courses, my sister was talking to the head of the engineering department in Letterkenny IT and he said that in 2000 the courses with the most students were IT and electronic engineering now he says that they are the lowest with Civil engineering now the highest I guess it depends on current trends..with people reading about the building boom its no surprize. When I started college doin Comp Sci there was 120 in my class and when I finished there was only 30 first years. I have friends leaving college now and they all seem to get work rather easy in IT, although a number have got jobs doing tech support with a large multi-national.

nesf

DublinWriter wrote:

I would...especially if I was a software house with product to sell!

The big misconception about IT is that all careers in it are primarilly technically focused.

From my experience, about 70% of the people I work with in IT departments are seriously non-technical and wouldn't know how to either program or take a card out of a PC.

People such as IT Managers\IT Directors\Business Analysts\Project Managers rarely have any in-depth knowledge of the technology.

If someone cares about an IT degree and is looking at jobs that require 5-7 years experience (as is the case here) then they are more than likely going for a technically orientated role no? Thus seamus' point makes sense. His entire post was speaking about a technical career, it was very clear to me anyways that he wasn't generalising out into the more "murky" areas of IT management, marketing and sales where it's no where as clear cut qualification wise imho.

rick_fantastic

there is definitely loads of it jobs going atm. im just finished honours degree and have been offered 4 jobs so far. 2 permanent and 2 contract. permanent money : €30k and 31k repectively and contract money €140 and €150 per day.

starting the €150 a day contract on monday doing citrix admin, cisco voip deployment, inhouse software maintainence(c++). ill be working directly under the it manager. ill have to do a bit of helpdesk stuff aswell but its all citrix based so should be fairly handy

DublinWriter

nesf wrote:

it was very clear to me anyways that he wasn't generalising out into the more "murky" areas of IT management

Murky?!? LOL.

There's various certification levels for PRINCE as a methodology.

Personally, I'm just wrapping up a two year part time MSc in IT Management.

I just think that people get a bit too narrowly focused on the technical side of the whole IT career ladder.

There definatly is a glass-ceiling for techies working in-house, unless your working for Microsoft and Oracle, and even then!...

easyontheeye

i've started a software development job on 33k, but im working with lads who are contracting on rates of 500 euro to 1200 a day, these are both project managers and developers, strangely enough the project managers are on the higher end. i think ppl or grad focus to much on the techincal jobs..its a much wider umbrella in the world of IT.

Also, when the goverment say there are a shortage of ppl to fill the IT vacancies, Sadly a majority of those IT vacancies cover call centre , tech support, helpdesk, 2nd line. So it would be interesting to see what the actual percentage of development and test jobs there are in IT that we are short people for.

rick_fantastic

yeah i only took on contract to get me thru til i start masters in management consultancy in smurfit business school.
im gonna do the prince2 practitioner qualification aswell....

never gonna be a programmer cos i hate it but i think that having a managment consultancy master with a solid technical background will stand well to me in the future

DublinWriter

easyontheeye wrote:

lads who are contracting on rates of 500 euro to 1200 a day, these are both project managers and developers

As I said, the real money in IT is to be made being a contract PM or BA.

Check out jobserve.co.uk if you don't believe me.

The technical end of the career is being eroded day by day.

nesf

DublinWriter wrote:

Murky?!? LOL.

My point was that the non-technical side of IT is less qualification constrained than the technical side. The technical side of the business is a lot more railroaded qualification wise isn't it? The non-technical side seems to give you more flexibility with routes in etc from what I can make out.

DOLEMAN

There are plenty of IT jobs at the moment. Have a peek -

http://www.dole.ie/site/search/~~15~MSw0LDUsNiw3~IT___Programming___Software/

shoegirl

Ginger wrote:

Without the experience you will be going back to a graduate level job.

Unfortunately for many agencies and potential employers this means "call centre".

I find that there is a lot of confusion as to what an IT job is - for many people IT means anything from development, tech support at all levels, or even manufacturing style roles as well as business-orientated, clerical and administrative posts that really have nothing to do with IT!

The main problem I see is that wages are still stagnated at 2001 levels, and there is a huge gulf between the entry level and higher levels, with many people unable to progress to more senior roles as they don't exist or are being filled externally - or are just non-IT.

shoegirl

DJDC wrote:

Another factor that has to be taken into account is that the quality of student taking IT has dropped in recent years due to the drop in leaving cert points.Companies will only hire the best of the best because they can be so selective due to the sheer quantity of IT professionals.

The problem is so many "IT graduates" these days just arent good enough for the task.They have mediocre leaving certs,average degrees and no work experience.The choice is there.You put in the hard work between the ages of 17 to 24 and reap the rewards.Otherwise you will end up on the scrapheap like so many others.Long gone are the days when one could just walk into a good software/IT job.

Hear hear! I have worked with so many of these guys (and it seems to be particularly prevalent amongst guys) it moves me to tears. I have worked with people who I find hard to believe passed a leaving cert never mind a degree. Some of the colleges really need to be smacked as these people are really downgrading the quality of qualifications for others.

One thing I really do feel is a lack of business awareness amongst graduates, many of them are very uncomfortable with the real world of business, which I think graduates of my time appreciated better because of leaner times.

TempestSabre

DOLEMAN wrote:

There are plenty of IT jobs at the moment. Have a peek -

http://www.dole.ie/site/search/~~15~MSw0LDUsNiw3~IT___Programming___Software/

Theres always lots of ads.

irishguy

I see IT grads are realising that college is over and are looking for jobs (with all the posts about no IT jobs for grads). The grads i know who whent looking for jobs 6months ago now have jobs(including myself). Grads who have not applied to grad programs will find it hard to get a job till next year, go do a masters for a year and apply for grad programs next year.

Kingp35

Maybe people are not interested in Grad programmes.

irishguy

Kingp35 wrote:

Maybe people are not interested in Grad programmes.

Well best of luck to them then as it will be alot harder to find a job unless your very good at what you do

testicle

Very smug aren't you? Smarmy baxtard.

TempestSabre

testicle wrote:

Very smug aren't you? Smarmy baxtard.

Hes actually got a good point though. Theres a lot more competition in IT now. Despite the celtic tiger and all the stories of easy money all around, you have to well skilled in todays IT market. The jobs are more demanding than ever.

Stark

testicle wrote:

Very smug aren't you? Smarmy baxtard.

He's not being smug, he's just telling it like it is. It's tough getting your first job as you've the catch-22 situation of "needing experience to get experience". Graduate programmes are a welcome aid in getting your first break.

There are still companies who hire graduates throughout the year though. I know IBM do hire graduates all year round. There are other companies who will hire graduates year round as well if you look through the job sites and do a search for "graduate" position.

testicle

Oh I'm long past being a graduate.

The problem with these graduate programs is that they only take the cream of the crop (understandably). That being those who have a 1.1 or a 2.1 (2.2 if you're very lucky) that leaves the poor unfortunate souls with a Pass degree (at Hons level) little or no chance of finding a decent job.

Just because you were a nerd in college and never went to the college bar, and spent their nights reviewing notes and books doesn't make you an great developer / etc.

yoshick

Stark wrote:

He's not being smug, he's just telling it like it is. It's tough getting your first job as you've the catch-22 situation of "needing experience to get experience". Graduate programmes are a welcome aid in getting your first break.

There are still companies who hire graduates throughout the year though. I know IBM do hire graduates all year round. There are other companies who will hire graduates year round as well if you look through the job sites and do a search for "graduate" position.

One of the key factors to graduates getting jobs is whether they have any real practical experience in a particular technology e.g. one of my clients is looking for an entry level graduate who has practical experience in Visual C++. They do not necessarily want a first class honours graduate who has spent their time studying and can't produce any code. They want someone who can hit the ground running and not need to much direction.

The bottom line is this - If you are a graduate and you are looking for work, you had better have some practical experience. Unfortunately this is a chicken and egg problem, so you may need to consider doing a grad program. The other option is that you wait for a job that may not come - you will be competing with a fresh batch of graduates next year and you will also have a year to account for on your CV.

irishguy

Come in fairness you really dont expect that your going to walk into a good devlopment job with only a pass degree. People with pass degrees generally do noting in college, you dont have to be a 'nerd' to get a 2.2 or above you just have to work hard. I know lots of people who have 2.1's/1.1's who are not 'nerds' they are just intelligent and work hard they deserve a good job alot more than the person with a pass degree

TempestSabre

I'll agree that a degree grade is no guarantee of getting a good employee or developer. However from the graduates point of view it does at least get you to the interview.

Stark

testicle wrote:

Just because you were a nerd in college and never went to the college bar, and spent their nights reviewing notes and books doesn't make you an great developer / etc.

Are you quite finished stereotyping there?

Eoin

I think there is a big distinction between a qualification and a certification.

In my view, a qualification (like a BSC in computing for example) is there to provide a framework of the industry / area. A certification is generally much more specific and is aimed at developing a very particular skillset. As the specific details of a technology are more likely to change than the underlying fundamentals; some certifications do and should have an "expiry date".

homeOwner

No one is going to hand you a job on a plate.

I got a pass in an honours degree, took me 6 months to get my first job (this was pre celtic tiger). I worked in a bank as tech support earning peanuts compared to what other grads were earning. I had access to the code that was being written by the programmers to process the pricing feeds from reuters and bloomberg. I studied the code, the tech specs, watched and learned silently in the background. 6 months later I applied for a programming job at another company and was able to talk about coding pricing programmes, i knew in dept how there were done and the businses logic behind it all. I also did a written coding test for the job and passed with flying colours. Hey presto I got the programming job. That was 10 years ago. That same company who hired me as a programmer would not have even interviewed me if I said i spent 6 months in pc support with a pass degree.

You make your own luck folks.

Raskolnikov

The industry is definitely improving, I haven't even graduated from college yet and I already have a year and a half of development experience and an offer of a job once I complete uni. To be honest, I haven't even worked particularily hard to get where I am.

smythmark

irishguy wrote:

I see IT grads are realising that college is over and are looking for jobs (with all the posts about no IT jobs for grads). The grads i know who whent looking for jobs 6months ago now have jobs(including myself). Grads who have not applied to grad programs will find it hard to get a job till next year, go do a masters for a year and apply for grad programs next year.

That sounds like my biography!:D It is definately way harder to get a job if you miss out on the milk round during the year. I like many others didn't really want to do the whole grad program thing tho as I would prefer to work for smaller indigenous irish software firms. Indeed I started up a similar moaning thread a few weeks ago. Since then I have a few interviews lined up, so fingers crossed.:)

There are definately smaller companies out there who are hiring at the moment. The main problems are of course that 1) they do not tend to partcipate in career fairs and 2) cannot afford / justify placing ads on the big sites such as monster or irishjobs (i discovered that this is quite expensive especially for companies that will have only a few vacancies per year.). It is my suspicion that many jobs are never advertised but filled by referals or word of mouth as it is so much more cost effective. I have also come across a number of places that are only advertising on their own website careers section.

As well as using all the usualy sources of job ads, it is also a case of doing the research and getting the CV out to as many of these places as possible, Eventually you hit a place that is hiring at just the right time.

shaym

Kai wrote:

Sorry a bit OT but does anyone know where you can sit an MCAD exam in Waterford / Kilkenny ? Ive had a look around the net but cant seem to find much.

Try Allen technologies in Wexford town..they do most if not all of the computer based tests.

shaym

Im personally not sure of the value of a IT degree , from my experience employers tend barely to notice it and would look to experience and certification more and to a large extent i agree with them.
My own story is that I came into IT completely by accident , I dropped out of a science degree 4 years ago not quite knowing what to do with myself and went to work in tech support with the intent of earning some money and travelling and maybe doing another course if and when I came back. At the time I could barely open my emails but they needed (English speaking) staff so they were more than happy to take me on. I discovered that I had a knack for it , and quickly moved up to a second level position , and now work as an IT manager. In the space of a few years did the 4 CCNP certs along with the MCSE , Linux and Security + exams and am planning before the end of the year to do the CCIE exam.
Yes , these exams have to be re-newed every few years but in my opinion if someone isnt continually updating their knowledge then they dont deserve to hold down a job in this business.
From my experience I believe the route I have taken to be better because it demonstrates that you know what you proport to know inside out, through work experience you have demonstrated that you have what it takes to do the job and through certification you have the proof of this on paper , the pass mark for Cisco exams is 85% , as opposed to some colleges where you can scrape through to 3rd or 4th year with a 40% average pass mark. This tends to be backed up by alot of IT grads I have worked with or known who could barely do things like plug in an ethernet cable.

mountainyman

katyk wrote:

I went into customer services for 2yrs, then went travelling and now Im back and in a project assistant job, i.e I'm an administrator. The job spec the agency gave me for the job doesnt reflect what I actually do, infact what they really gave me was the spec for my supervisors job. ... I am getting no experience in anything IT related and as Im on contract for a particular project I have no opportunity to gain any IT experience.

OK turn that project adminn experience into IT project admin experience by being creative on your CV. Find a friend who will act as a referee and LIE LIE LIE. A CV is not a legally binding document anymore than a job spec.

Stark

I believe lying on your C.V. is grounds for instant dismissal.

nesf

Stark wrote:

I believe lying on your C.V. is grounds for instant dismissal.

And sometimes a black mark by your name in the field if it's a small one.

Bluetonic

shaym wrote:

Im personally not sure of the value of a IT degree

You would say that, you failed to complete yours.

Having an IT degree leaves many more doors open for you than not have one.

TempestSabre

I think lying is a terrible idea.

Bluetonic

TempestSabre wrote:

I think lying is a terrible idea.

Are you lying now