Eastern Bloc workers?

curadh

Hi there,
has anyone experience of hiring eastern european workers or any contacts for them? Looking to employ one for a week or two doing general work.
Thnaks

Reyman

Just heard second hand from a builder the other day these guys are incredible -- do the work of three Irish guys and more important don't need a whole lot of supervision.

It might be more difficult getting good guys though just for a week's work !

ifah

first hand experience - I got a Romanian plasterer and his labourer to plaster the outside of my extension (45 m2 of wall) (one coat render, applied on day 1 and finished on day 2)
Cost €600 for the job
The finish is immaculate.
They said they would arrive @12:00 on Thursday - they were there @ 11.55. They worked until 7pm to get the first coat on. Told me Thursday evening they would be there @7am Friday to finish up - arrived @7:05 and were finished and gone @9.15 after finishing job and cleaning up.

They are coming on Friday evening to do the bonding and beading on the inside and will be back Saturday morning early to do the skim coat - total price for inside €800. Will let you know how the finish is but they did my neighbours extension and the finish was like glass - so smooth.

Best price for an Irish plasterer was €3500 (cash) and worst €4900 (cash) and I know that they wouldn't be as punctual or anything like it.

curadh

ifah, do you mind me asking how you got in contact? There was an ad in the buy and sell a few weeks back for these workers but since gone.

ifah

My neighbour is a builder and has a Romanian carpenter working with him. My plasterer whares a house with his carpenter. - it's all about who you know !

RobEire

curadh wrote:

Hi there,
has anyone experience of hiring eastern european workers or any contacts for them? Looking to employ one for a week or two doing general work.
Thnaks

We have two now at work and both are hardworkers, honest and very reliable. Best place to source for short term work would be Adecco or Able Recruit.

Builderwoman!

We have a Polish guy helping us with painting, cleaning up, lugging stuff around, putting up a shed etc etc. Brilliant worker and an absolute gentleman. He cannot get over the shoddy work of the "dirty Irish tradesmen". He also cannot get over the fact that that Irish tradesmen do not clean up after themselves or even throw their lunch papers in the bin on site. He is excellent and we could not now be completing our self build without him. A gift!

AJL

Hi Ifah,

Where are you situated? Would be interested in getting a quote from these guys?

Salmon

Yeah,

Wouldnt mind getting a quote myself!

ifah

i'm based in Swords but the lads are currently living in Castleknock - they arrived early friday morning to do the skim coat and worked all day - finished at 7.30pm with the job done - super job - smooth as glass. They are working all over afaik - they were on a job in Newbridge early last week and are going to Donegal for 3 weeks to do some work up there.

i'll pm contact details to you. Also they seem to have their own network where they get extra men in if needed - on Friday the two lads turned up and then went off for about 10 minutes to pick up a labourer to do the mixing for them.

AJL

Hi Ifah,

thanks a million for that appreciate it.

Soledad

We have had Lithuanians do a lot of our work, tiling, stone masons, footpaths, ground works etc.
Their work was second to none, turned up on time every time, were really neat and perfectionists.

patrickolee

Had the opposite experience. Got a Romanian builder who had been recommended by a friend (did an excellent job for him). His plasterers must have left! The job I got was well shabby in places. Got an Irish plasterer, recommended by another friend to patch up some of the rougher bits. Old fella who just does a bit of work here and there. Did an excellent job for 150 for the days work. Gave him 200.

So it depends on the people, not all Irish builders are lazy dirty, overpriced and unpunctual. Neither are all foreign tradesmen fantastic. BTW, just for balance my electrician is Romanian and fantastic.

Carpenter

patrickolee wrote:

Had the opposite experience. Got a Romanian builder who had been recommended by a friend (did an excellent job for him). His plasterers must have left! The job I got was well shabby in places. Got an Irish plasterer, recommended by another friend to patch up some of the rougher bits. Old fella who just does a bit of work here and there. Did an excellent job for 150 for the days work. Gave him 200.

So it depends on the people, not all Irish builders are lazy dirty, overpriced and unpunctual. Neither are all foreign tradesmen fantastic. BTW, just for balance my electrician is Romanian and fantastic.

Fair play to you
We had a lot of foreign workers over the years and out of them all 1 man was very good so he still works for us by the way now we try stay clear of them

RedLady

Hi SoleDad,

I believe that you are in Limerick. Where did you source your workers?

THanks

Soledad

I'm in Cork and we are friends with their boss, he is in Ireland for a good number of years and has a lot of men working for him.
They normally do big jobs only, like full houses etc so were doing smaller jobs for us as a favour as we know him personally.
They built my Brother in Laws house from start to finish and are currently building a good few houses in the North Cork area.

spud2

I'm currently looking for a stone masion in the south Tipperary area, for a natural stone fix for the front of a house. If anyone can recommend anyone I'd be most grateful
Thanks
Mike

RedLady

Hi,

Has anybody got any contacts for eastern workers in the limerick/north cork area? Would like to see what they are charging for the various parts of hosue build.....getting quotes from Irish workers and they are HIGH!!

Cheers,

kadman

I'd be interested in the professions or trades of all the posters looking to further exploit cheap foreign workers.

Maybe I can start using cheaper solicitors, dentists, accountants, mechanics ect:D

kadman

Reyman

kadman wrote:

I'd be interested in the professions or trades of all the posters looking to further exploit cheap foreign workers.

Maybe I can start using cheaper solicitors, dentists, accountants, mechanics ect:D

kadman

Good point Kadman! We can't seem to bring in the guys we really need to replace the people who are ripping us off like - Consultants, Barristers, Doctors, Dentists. Pharmacists. I call them the 'Barrier Professions' -restrict entry and we get even richer

A few hundred Polish GPs and we wouldn't be paying €50 for a 5 minute consultation with a doctor

RedLady

I think that we the customer are the ones that are being exploited in this country for the most part.....I have seen it first hand where people just hike their prices up for no reason other than greed.

rooferPete

Hi Red Lady,

Sorry to say but that is an old argument, I have never seen a person in secure employment with the big pay cheque guaranteed hand any of it back because the had a slow month at work.

I have met the people in management positions for semi-state companies cry when they got the bill even when the figures had been agreed, they went to work in suits and subsidised luxury cars, we worked out of vans in the cold and rain to protect their property.

Sorry no sympathy from this beaten up ole roofer

.

RedLady

Yes Pete, you meet all sorts of people in all walks of life.
All most people want when they are building a house or doing anything really is to pay a fair price for the product or the service and to feel that their hard earned money has been well spent. Nobody likes to feel like they have been Ripped off.

kadman

Funny , there was uproar in Ireland when the foreign workers were being underpaid by large contractors, and semi state companies. But it seems to be ok to do the same on a small scale.

Exploitation is exploitation , regardless of who is doing it.

Remember not all construction workers are rip off artists, and this continuing trend may have further consequences for consruction workers currently paid proper rates.

Is there any difference in a rip off builder, and someone exploiting a worker paid below normal rates . I dont believe there is.

Sorry for the rant,:)

kadman

RedLady

Hi Kadman/Pete

This is a discussion board so I dont think that you are ranting and are well entitled to your views.

My father was a building contractor pre-boom in the 1980's. He was a very hard working honest man and I am well used to how hard some people work in the contruction industry. I remember well people calling to the house and faking near heart attacks at prices of tenders etc. Jeepers, if any of them knew what a house was going to cost 15 years ahead of then, they would surely have collapsed!! So I am no dissing on the trade as that trade put my through college....my brother also works at it in the states as does a lot of cousins etc. My problem at the moment is this....that one tradesman can jump up his prices by as much as 30% over the course of 12-14 months. Where 1 wood pellet boiler can differ by as much as 4k from one supplier to another....where 1 wood pellet stove can cost 600k more from one shop to another. I got a quote to-day for 3 external doors....the very same doors cost an extra 1000k from another supplier. To me these seem like huge differences.

Now I am the one ranting:rolleyes:
.....I am sure that there are others that have some across the same.

DublinWriter

kadman wrote:

I'd be interested in the professions or trades of all the posters looking to further exploit cheap foreign workers.

Maybe I can start using cheaper solicitors, dentists, accountants, mechanics ect:D

It's called market forces.

Welcome to Capitalism.

DublinWriter

kadman wrote:

Funny , there was uproar in Ireland when the foreign workers were being underpaid by large contractors, and semi state companies. But it seems to be ok to do the same on a small scale.

There's a world of difference between being shipped over by the likes of Gamma, being paid €10 a day and being expected to live in an empty truck cargo container by the side of the road with no toilet facilities or running water, and an Irish person willing to strike an individual deal with a foreign tradesman.

kadman

DublinWriter wrote:

There's a world of difference between being shipped over by the likes of Gamma, being paid €10 a day and being expected to live in an empty truck cargo container by the side of the road with no toilet facilities or running water, and an Irish person willing to strike an individual deal with a foreign tradesman.

There is no difference in being taken advantage of, either by a company or individual. No doubt gamma could also use the " individual deal " defense as well.

I asked a question about the professions of the people looking for low wage workers on the boards. None of the posters were willing to state their professions. Fair enough , thats their right.

There fore I can only assume they are not employed in the construction industry, thats why they are looking for the cheap construction workers.

My point being, are honest construction workers at the risk of having their livliehoods ( spelling) and standard of living undermined, by cheaper european workers. Maybe so. Me being an honest construction worker, do I have cause for concern. I am all for thousands of europeans working in the construction industry, on proper rates of pay, but not for rates that undermine my job.

If we had european doctors, solicitors, accountants ect, working here for half the standard rates, I am sure all you professionals out there would also be worrying.

End of rant;)

kadman

DublinWriter

kadman wrote:

There is no difference in being taken advantage of, either by a company or individual. No doubt gamma could also use the " individual deal " defense as well.

I'm sure they could, but there were also stories doing the rounds about Gamma HQ in Turkey threatening to cause problems for relatives of workers who protested in Ireland working for Gamma back home.

Gamma were in breach of Irish minimum-wage law legislation. Full stop.

As I said, world of a difference between paying €10 a day, or as one of the posters said here, a couple of hundred a day for a plastering job.

People whinge about rip off prices and the lack of competition in this country, and now you're whinging about competition?!?

Of course you're giving out about it, you're an interested party! The construction industry have had it on easy-street in this country for ages. A bit of competition and you're all starting to cry like the 'hard-done' taxi-drivers shortly after deregulation.

As I said, we have a minimum wage in this country now to prevent exploitation. Anything more than that is up to your personal negotiation skills and the market forces at play at the time.

kadman

Going rate for a chippie or similar trades man , about 17 euros an hour.

Yes I have a problem for any chippie willing to work for a quarter of that, thats seriously going to affect my standard of living, and put people like me on the dole. Too right I'm going to whinge. just like you will, when some one will come along and do your job for a quarter of your earnings. Or are you just gong to sit back and say , well thats just market forces.

Easy street.....I'm afraid not , for me any way.

I spent the best part of 18 months on a picket line for young apprentices , to get fair working conditions and apprenticeship training for them. I was the highest paid within the company at the time, so I did not need the hassle of union membership, but they asked me for support , and I gave it.

I've earned the right to a fair wage, and I dont intend to apologise for expecting it. Maybe when your profession is subject to the same market forces, you might be singing a different tune.

kadman

DublinWriter

kadman wrote:

I spent the best part of 18 months on a picket line for young apprentices , to get fair working conditions and apprenticeship training for them. I was the highest paid within the company at the time, so I did not need the hassle of union membership, but they asked me for support , and I gave it.

So you're saying that you spent 18 months on a picket line without any income?

rooferPete

Hi,

Kadman I have no doubt that you would support your fellow workers, there have always been the few who stood by and not on their principles

Today I had a young man, who is a brilliant worker and Irish BTW come into my office and ask for a week off, he is not skilled but learns fast as has manners (God they don't make them like that anymore).

He was offered €150.00 per day cash in hand by consumer to do some labouring for a week ?????????

Maybe that is part of the reason the prices are all over the place, I can't go to the customers for this week and tell them my prices are up 30% because an already well paid worker got a better offer.

Strange thing is he didn't get a better offer, he has lost his full entitlements for this week which would cost me more than 30% when his gross cost is made up, cost is not nice because he earns every cent but you get the picture.

I am now wondering what position he and his part time employer will be in if he has an accident this week ? OK I don't care about the employer (house holder) but that young man can only see €€€ signs.

As a self confessed capitalist I believe in profit, that doesn't mean I have to believe in greed, I have noticed that less of our workforce have "real jobs", most are on contracts especially those working for the big employers.

I can forsee the day coming when Liberty Hall will be full once again because all people today are looking at is the bottom line on the there pay check or bank statement.

A true "Red" once gave me the definition of an Irish Socialist, (He was a fun gent) The Irish Socialist is a capitalist without money

Don't now how I got to this point so I better sign off

.

kadman

DublinWriter wrote:

So you're saying that you spent 18 months on a picket line without any income?

You check out what union pay you could get in 1978.

I am still curious to know the profession you are in Dublinwriter

kadman

JimmySmith

I got a quotes for painting my house of €4500, €4250, €3000 and €2750. (All irish guys) Only the €3000 and €4500 guy could tell me other houses that they had painted that i could look at. So i had decided to go with the €3000 after lookibng at his work which was very good. The €4500 guys work was woeful. Then last weekend i was in a friends house and they mentioned that they had just got the house painted and we talked. A Polish guy had painted it for €600 in 3 days. Now this house was the same size as mine and an excellent job had been done on it. Guess who is painting our house this week for €600 and i'm going to give him €100 for a few pints too and already have a mate going to get his house painted next week, who wasnt planning on getting his house painted this year at all.

Why on Earth would i go for the Irish guys. Also i need some plastering done and he will do it too. For less than a quarter of the prices quoted me by another 2 Irish plasterers. He's provided me with references for his plastering too. In fact he is so busy that he has even asked me not to get him anymore work yet.
And get this for a laugh. A friend of mine is thinking about becoming an agent for Eastern Europeans doing building work, plastering, painting etc. Good idea, but i think he's just dreaming.

I would think that €200 for a days work is more than fair, but the irish guys want more and will try to suck every penny they can out of you too.

ifah

kadman wrote:

I'd be interested in the professions or trades of all the posters looking to further exploit cheap foreign workers.

Maybe I can start using cheaper solicitors, dentists, accountants, mechanics ect:D

kadman

Hi kadman -

only picked up your question now - i'm a self employed computer systems architect who also dabbles in a bit of healthy diy (as much as i can) at home.
I'm just finishing off our extension - my dads a carpenter and i worked with him since age 12 through to age 21 every school/college holiday + weekend. i've done most of the work myself - just hired a blocklayer, electrician and plasterer.

i'd like to know if you're asking was i one of the people exploiting the foreign workers - if you work out based on the hours i've quoted you'll see that i paid my plasterer - for the external render it worked out @ €600 for 8 hours + 10 minutes work for 1 plasterer/1 labourer. (less 1 hour lunch/breaks)
For internal skim it worked out @ €800 for 10 hours work for 2 plasterers/1 labourer.

based on this I paid these guys more than I charge myself for a days work - as i said i'm self employed and only charge €350-400 (which i pay tax/prsi/public liability/employers indemnity etc from ) - this is after 4 years college + 10 years working to get to this. I would consider the rates I paid (set by Valy the plasterer) to be reasonable and I chose him not only for his fair rates but also on the quality of the work he had previously done.

any comments ?

Carb

Some of the comments on here by our resident construction professionals are absolutely ridiculous.

I'm an accountant. I've spent the past five years doing several sixty hour weeks, attending college up to four nights a week, and I am happy to admit that my weekly wage is about one third of what many tradesmen expect to earn in a week. When somebody rings me up for a quote, I call them back when I say I will. If I'm suppose to meet somebody, I turn up when I say I will. If I have given a completion date, I will try to have it complete on time, instead of pissing off to do somebody elses work and ignoring the other persons calls. If I'm too busy, I will say so rather than giving a price two or three times higher to get people to clear off. And before you say that not all constuction workers are that bad, myself, my brother, my cousin and about five other people I know are building houses at the moment, and about 75% of the tradesmen they have dealt with for quotes/work have been that bad, not to mention that my brother is going through the courts with his plasterer because all the plaster on the outside fell off. I'm not one for generalisations, but it seems ok to generalise all customers here.

As for the apparent exploitation of eastern european workers. I paid 18k for six weeks work, to get the brickwork on the outside of my TF house built. There was one Irish brickie, one polish brickie and a polish labourer. Most sub contractors seem to have several "cheaper" eastern european workers, yet still charge full Irish prices. One of the most expensive contractors where I live pays his construction workers minimum wage and I know of foreign brickies who are transported to Dublin everyday getting paid about 600 euro per week when no doubt their boss charges about 1500 for them. The fact that so many constuction workers are worried about eastern europeans undercutting them by only charging 200 per day shows the rip off that is going on. Everbody on this thread has referred to paying 150 to 200 per day. That hardly exploitation.

kadman

Hi ifah,

Comments..Yes.

With out all the facts relative to whether your prices included , insurance , vat , prsi, receipts given ect ., or whether it was a cash in the hand job, its impossible make any judgement.

I am assuming that these were not registered contractors, but this was purely a nixer, based on the prices charged. But I am open to correction on this, as you did not state it in your post.

My point made in earlier posts , is that using lower paid eurpean workers has a negative knock on effect for similar tradesmen in jobs that are being paid a normal construction rate of pay.

Would I use your services for 400e a day , if I could get a cheaper european comp systems architect for 100 euro a day. No.

Would your career , and job security feel threatened if there were an equal number of systems architects as there are construction personnel, willing to work for below trade rates. I suspect they would.

kadman

ifah

hi kadman - yes it was a cash in hand job - they were covered under my insurance. afaik they're not registered for tax/vat/insurance and tbh that's not my concern - i'm not in the business of policing other people - it's hard enough managing my own tax affairs.

I accept your point about using lower paid european (or other) workers having a negative knock on effect on other tradesmen but i'd love to know what is a normal construction rate of pay and whether some of the other quotes i got were heavily inflated over that. if you extrapolate my experience out we would have paid 3300 for a 45 hour week for 1 plasterer and 1 labourer. Does your quoted example of 17e per hour hold for a plasterer and labourer ? - for a 45 hour week that is 1530e if both labourer and plasterer are paid 17e.

As for you not employing me if you could get an alternative for 100e per day that is something I would have to live with - maybe i'd have to drop my rates or depend on my good name/reputation to get me work which I know is the case in the construction industry also. people are willing to pay (me included) (top rates if necessary) for quality work/ completed on time in a professional manner - some of my experiences and it seems others here have had the opposite experiences (both from the cash in hand, fly by night builder and the fully registered builder).

please note - i don't support exploiting workers - my problem is just with trades trying to exploit potential customers.

edited to add further note :
just wanted to add that i apply my reasoning to all professions across the board - i have had bad service from numerous professions (restaurants/pubs/estate agents/doctors/computer consultants/sales/garages/etc) and i always deal with them the same way - i don't do business with them - i go elsewhere to someone i get the professional service i want and expect.
i just don't want to be seen to generalise across builders/tradesmen.

kadman

Hi ifah,

So basically you paid a cash in hand job , to avoid paying a contractor a profit percentage on the job in question. Fair enough I suppose.

But would I be correct in the assumption that your cash in hand payment, with no receipt facilitates people avoiding paying the government vat., prsi,tax ect

In short you are supporting the black economy ,where workers traditionally in the construction industry have been unable to avail of all their proper rights, due to cash payments. And as a person who has been on the receiving end of "working on the lump " as the saying goes, the lower paid worker is the one who loses out.

The going trade rate for a professional in the construction industry is about 17e an hour gross.

If i could get 200e a day, I'd learn to speak polish:D

kadman

RedLady

Hi Ifan,

Your last point there is exactly how most customers feel....we want to pay a fair rate for a fair days work....I think that its most decents peoples intention not to exploit EB workers but if they are doing the same job or even better in some cases than their Irish counterpart s then I think thats great for them and great for the cusomter. I do also take Kadmans point about this cheaper rate having a knock on effect on the irish tradesman but this little bit of compitition is no harm and it might get them to have a closer look at their prices which to me definitly seem way over the odds....just going on my own experience to date.

Regards,

ifah

quite true in relation to the black economy and i know the onus could be placed on the consumer but it is mostly on the supplier of the goods to ensure compliance. another experience i had was all of the registered trades (plasterers/blocklayers/electricians) i got quotes from offered me the option of paying either cash in hand or receipted with vat.

in relation to all the work i've done - i've employed direct rather than through a middleman (builder) - i feel i have more control that way.

Carb

kadman wrote:

The going trade rate for a professional in the construction industry is about 17e an hour gross.

If i could get 200e a day, I'd learn to speak polish:D

kadman

That is absolute bullsh*t. My brother earns more than that as a general constuction worker at the moment, never mind a trade. The 17 euro you refer to is the CIF's minimum rate, not the going rate. Any tradesman can easily get 200 euro a day. I was labouring for brickies five years ago, and they were earning that amount then.

BTW, compliance with VAT/Tax laxs etc is the full reponsibility of the service provider, not the consumer.

JimmySmith

ifah wrote:

another experience i had was all of the registered trades (plasterers/blocklayers/electricians) i got quotes from offered me the option of paying either cash in hand or receipted with vat

The very same for me. I have not ever met one tradesman who has not told me that i would get a discount for cash by avoiding the vat system.

kadman

Carb wrote:

That is absolute bullsh*t. My brother earns more than that as a general constuction worker at the moment, never mind a trade. The 17 euro you refer to is the CIF's minimum rate, not the going rate.
QUOTE]


My reference to 17E an hour, was in relation to the cif rate. Of course some tradesmen are earning more. You naturally assume all trades are getting 200euros a day. Wel wake up call...most are not.

As outlined earlier, its not fair to generalise. You know some who are paid above the rate, I know many who are paid below the rate.

So your assumption that all tradesmen are earning colossal amounts of money is equally bul****.

kadman

kadman

JimmySmith wrote:

The very same for me. I have not ever met one tradesman who has not told me that i would get a discount for cash by avoiding the vat system.

Am I correct then in believing you were given 2 seperate prices, one for cash, and a different one including vat.

If so , and you paid the cash sum, which was lower. Is that complicity in defrauding the government of vat payments. I am just posing the question here.

Funny I'm touching a raw nerve here.

How come no construction worker has seen fit to find fault with my posts.
Or is it all other professions that I'm just pissing off at the moment.
Of course not many posters , have had the courage to outline their careers.

Mmm.....i wonder why;)

kadman

Carb

kadman wrote:

Carb wrote:

That is absolute bullsh*t. My brother earns more than that as a general constuction worker at the moment, never mind a trade. The 17 euro you refer to is the CIF's minimum rate, not the going rate.
QUOTE]


My reference to 17E an hour, was in relation to the cif rate. Of course some tradesmen are earning more. You naturally assume all trades are getting 200euros a day. Well wake up call...most are not.

As outlined earlier, its not fair to generalise. You know some who are paid above the rate, I know many who are paid below the rate.

So your assumption that all tradesmen are earning colossal amounts of money is equally bul****.

kadman

Wake up call, no one this site who has recently built a house will believe you. I wasn't referring to a trade, I was referring to a general worker. My other brother, who is also a general operative was able to get about 20 euro and hour, and his friend who ties steel get 21 euro and hour. I do not know one tradesman that would accept less or even close ro what these guys are earning. I do know of several tradesmen that have over 1500 euro a week home with them. As an accountant in a practice that has mostly construction clients, all tradesmen were earning at least 1200 euro per week. The only tradesmen that I've ever come across that weren't earning this amount were those who went on the beer for half the week because they earned enough in three days.
I've no doubt that some may earn less, but don't even try to convince me that most earn less.

As you've probably noticed now, I've mentioned my profession
twice now. And contrary to popular belief, anyone can call themselves an accountant, its not the closed shop that you portray.

I've always valued your opinion on this forum, but its amazing how somebody in the space of a couple posts can losse all credibility in my eyes, not to mention insult the intelligence of the poeple who have to deal with the price of tradesmen everday.

JimmySmith

kadman wrote:

Am I correct then in believing you were given 2 seperate prices, one for cash, and a different one including vat.

If so , and you paid the cash sum, which was lower. Is that complicity in defrauding the government of vat payments. I am just posing the question here.

Funny I'm touching a raw nerve here.

How come no construction worker has seen fit to find fault with my posts.
Or is it all other professions that I'm just pissing off at the moment.
Of course not many posters , have had the courage to outline their careers.

Mmm.....i wonder why;)

kadman

You should take a breath or two. I think its you who has a raw nerve exposed
For the record i am in IT. I used to work as a labourer until 1994. Then got sick of the rubbish money in it and went for a nice office job. My father and brothers are chippies and sparkies. A lot of my friends are in the trades too. Every single one of them is creaming it. And are very very busy. So much so that they dont even have time to do work for me. I would expect it for free Not one is getting less than €300 a day and all are pissed that Eastern Europeans are now here working for a reasonable rate. They are forever bragging about how much money they make.

Let me explain the cash and Vat thing again. Every tradesperson who i have ever had a quote from has offered me a cash price. When i ask does that include Vat, (because i can claim it back some of the time) they then warn me that if i want a vat receipt that it will cost more. I had not suggested any underhand dealings. They had. Also, if i pay an independant contractor x amount of money, its not up to me to look after his tax for him is it. Its up to me to pay him whatever he charges me (incl vat) and its up to him to look after his own tax affairs.

kadman wrote:

How come no construction worker has seen fit to find fault with my posts.
Or is it all other professions that I'm just pissing off at the moment.
kadman

I would think that turkeys working in construction arent going to vote for christmas.

kadman

Carb wrote:

kadman wrote:

I've no doubt that some may earn less, but don't even try to convince me that most earn less.


I've always valued your opinion on this forum, but its amazing how somebody in the space of a couple posts can losse all credibility in my eyes, not to mention insult the intelligence of the poeple who have to deal with the price of tradesmen everday.

Hi carb

Many workers in the construction industry earn less than half of your 1500 euro a week. Any construction related industry workshop based, carpenter, joiners, wood machinists, cabinet makers, timberframe designers, technicians, timberframe manufacturers would be lucky to get half that. Ring any joinery or timberframe manufacturer, kitchen , or shopfitters and ask about rates for workshop personnel. I guarantee you wont find 1 paying above 750 gross.
Go ahead and prove me wrong. I know . I have worked in all levels of workshop construction, and have dealt with wage related issues.
Not all of the construction industry is on mega money, as I said before many are not.

If my opinion upsets you so much, there is very little I can do about that. But regardless of my views , I am still an experienced wood work trades man, and I dont think my personnel opinion on any issues will affect that. So if you ever post a woodwork related topic, rest assured I will give an opinion on it.
Whether you choose to act on it , is your prerogative ( spelling ).

There may be some confusion over contractors pricing to customers, and the ordinary construction individual. Any reference I have made to wages, rates ect is taken from the ordinary workers point of view. I am not even commenting on contractors quotes for jobs, as these are 2 different things.



Hi Jimmysmith

I assume your statement " no one is earning less than 300E a day", is relative to your father and brothers, fair dues to them. Over the last 7 years I have worked in senior positions in timberframe and joinery related areas. In the companies involved , employees probably totaled a bout close on 200.

These ranged from carpenters, joiners, designers ,cad technicians, kitchen designers , cabinetmakers ect. Not one of these, including some management personnel, were earning more than 35k per year.

So if some fellows are on big money in the constuction industry, and you all feel ripped of regards pricing, dont tar us all with the same brush.

I dont think any different of Carb or Jimmysmith, for having a different view, and defend to the death your right to have one.
But if you should cut old kadman from your woodwork knowledge database, it will be your loss:D

And just in case any one asks, I am working in the construction industry, as a production manager, and am earning way above the minimum wage, significantly more than either an accountant or an it tech....but thats because I am so good at what I do:cool: :cool:

kadman:)

Carb

kadman wrote:

Carb wrote:

Hi carb

Many workers in the construction industry earn less than half of your 1500 euro a week. Any construction related industry workshop based, carpenter, joiners, wood machinists, cabinet makers, timberframe designers, technicians, timberframe manufacturers would be lucky to get half that. Ring any joinery or timberframe manufacturer, kitchen , or shopfitters and ask about rates for workshop personnel. I guarantee you wont find 1 paying above 750 gross.
Go ahead and prove me wrong. I know . I have worked in all levels of workshop construction, and have dealt with wage related issues.
Not all of the construction industry is on mega money, as I said before many are not.

If my opinion upsets you so much, there is very little I can do about that. But regardless of my views , I am still an experienced wood work trades man, and I dont think my personnel opinion on any issues will affect that. So if you ever post a woodwork related topic, rest assured I will give an opinion on it.
Whether you choose to act on it , is your prerogative ( spelling ).

There may be some confusion over contractors pricing to customers, and the ordinary construction individual. Any reference I have made to wages, rates ect is taken from the ordinary workers point of view. I am not even commenting on contractors quotes for jobs, as these are 2 different things.



Hi Jimmysmith

I assume your statement " no one is earning less than 300E a day", is relative to your father and brothers, fair dues to them. Over the last 7 years I have worked in senior positions in timberframe and joinery related areas. In the companies involved , employees probably totaled a bout close on 200.

These ranged from carpenters, joiners, designers ,cad technicians, kitchen designers , cabinetmakers ect. Not one of these, including some management personnel, were earning more than 35k per year.

So if some fellows are on big money in the constuction industry, and you all feel ripped of regards pricing, dont tar us all with the same brush.

I dont think any different of Carb or Jimmysmith, for having a different view, and defend to the death your right to have one.
But if you should cut old kadman from your woodwork knowledge database, it will be your loss:D

And just in case any one asks, I am working in the construction industry, as a production manager, and am earning way above the minimum wage, significantly more than either an accountant or an it tech....but thats because I am so good at what I do:cool: :cool:

kadman:)

Hi Kadman,

Forget the credibility thing. I wasn't in one of my better moods yesterday. Its pretty obvious where the difference of opinion arises. I think most people on this forum when they're referring to a trade, its in relation to the plasterer/brickie/plumber/electrician that they hire to work on their house. As for workshop joinery, very few, if anyone here will ever have to directly hire a workshop joiner. I don't know what a timberframe manufacturer pays their carpenters, or even how many they actually have in a factory, but I do know the guys who erected mine were getting 150 sterling per day. I assume the site workers get paid more than the worshop workers. My brother works in a joinery and earns no where near the figures I mention. Whether fair or not, I don't think the wage rates (or the service for that matter) of a construction trade can be compared to a workshop trade, especially on a thread which was initially about people trying to find a cheaper way of getting some plastering done.

In terms of how Eastern European workers maybe affecting workshop trades, I've no doubt that they are having an impact. I remember recently enough that the gosh*te that runs Century homes was on the TV saying that only for Eastern Europeans, most manufacturing industries wouldn't survive. His place is full of Eastern Europeans, but in the 10 years that I've bothered reading the local paper, he has never once advertised for anything other than office staff. If you didn't know somebody, you couldn't get in.

Just as a side note, my sister in-law got a bill yesterday evening from their electrician for wiring 10 outsides lights on the drivway. Labour was 1600 euro plus VAT ie 77 euro plus vat per hour:eek: Needless to say he's going to be told where to stick it.

kadman

Hi carb,

Construction personnel cover all areas of construction, workshop related and site. Although there are two different roles , site work, and workshop based, the rates laid down for , lets say, carpenters and joiners, do not differentiate betwween the two. Lets say there is no significant different rate for a workshop carpenter, or a site carpenter, officially. Although in reality , there is a major difference.

With regards to the tf manufacturers , I could give you a long list of tf companies that will employ you, and give you the low down on rates of pay ect. You would be better off on the dole. Pm me for details.

kadman:)

JimmySmith

kadman wrote:

Hi carb,

Construction personnel cover all areas of construction, workshop related and site. Although there are two different roles , site work, and workshop based, the rates laid down for , lets say, carpenters and joiners, do not differentiate betwween the two. Lets say there is no significant different rate for a workshop carpenter, or a site carpenter, officially. Although in reality , there is a major difference.

With regards to the tf manufacturers , I could give you a long list of tf companies that will employ you, and give you the low down on rates of pay ect. You would be better off on the dole. Pm me for details.

kadman:)

My brother in law fits kitchens for a company in wicklow. He works both in the workshop and on site fitting them. He makes over €1000 a week and thats not including the ones he fits himself at weekends where he can nearly double his weekly salary. I just called him to clarify and he tells me that most of the guys working in the workshop are apprentices on apprentice money. Any non apprentices are getting what he gets. Also they have started to employ Eastern Europeans for less than what they are paying the Irish guys.

He says he could make much more working on sites etc but that he has a deal which keeps him in the workshop 3 days a week, so he's home to his kids 10 minutes after work.

At the end of the day Everyone here who has ever got a quote or who knows someone in construction knows well they get paid, so there is really no point in trying to tell them otherwise.