Am I getting the wrong end of the stick?

pH

Whilst we're on a "what's that all about thread"

Why do Christians pray to dead humans?

I can understand how you can believe there is a God and He can intervene and make things happen down here, but where did the idea that some dead people get elevated with special super-powers come from?

• Why 'pray' to St Anthony or Mary rather than directly to God?
• Where in the Bible does it say that this happens?

Why do Christians pray *for* dead humans
So you live your life, you get 'judged' and you then have eternity in heaven or hell based on how well you lived. Fine I understand that belief, but what I don't understand is why living people 'pray' for the dead. Is it some form of voting, can God's mind be changed if enough people pray? Can his mind be changed the other way?

Dades

pH wrote:

Why do Christians pray to dead humans?

Perhaps people pray to the deceased in the same way they would have turned to them in life to help them through. I guess it's a way of rekindling the connection. You can imagine why people want to believe such a thing.

I'd imagine Saints are like your local TDs. If you've lost something valuable you go to St Anthony, and he brings your case before An Taoiseach.

robindch

> Why do Christians pray to dead humans?

On the simple human side, the act of christians praying to dead people is morphologically identical to the ancestor worship seen in many other 'primitive' religions, and I'd imagine that the two rest upon the same expectations of the human brain -- that the person isn't really dead at all, but just, er, resting. At the social level, plenty of cultures have evolved similar customs (usually helpfully suggested by eldery people) to venerate the dead, in the hope if not the expection, that the obediently praying youth might respect the still-living eldery a bit more.

At the risk of straying OT, quite a few roman emperors chose to raise the previous incumbent to god-status, in the expectation that next guy would oblige to he current one. Needless to say, the Vatican carried on this glorious Roman tradition, so we find that most of the first ten or fifteen popes are all saints as well. The Vatican kept the Roman Imperial purple too, hence the wearing of purple by bishops.

But as to what on earth christians believe that praying to the dead is supposed to achieve? Heaven only knows

Pocari Sweat

Praying to lost ones. Obviously religion and god and praying etc, are not tangible things we can get to grips with, they are products of our psychology.

Because the average brain power of yer average animal is not like humans, their psychology is more based on survival, not much spare thinking power to chew on the imponderables.

We however are blessed / cursed with extra brain power coupled with the luxuries of life and spare time to over analyse stuff and talk crap, as suggested by The Atheist and the crap I come out with.

One by-product of this unique sense of consciousness we have is imagination and self delusion.

Praying for lost ones therefore, is more of a pschological denial of the complete loss of a loved one, and the subsequent invention of immortality imbued upon those lost in the way of a soul and living in heaven and possibly having mediums to contact the by-products of our physical existence in the afterlife via etherial means to gain a sense of comfort.

Its actually tripe but at the same time a good thing as it calms those who can't accept that we are just here and have to make the best of what we have got and instead of going cracked we just make stuff up instead.

No harm in that, I wouldn't slag off The Atheist if she went cracked and started going on about religion, because I don't think the people who actually believe in it are bad, its just the concept itself I think is doolally.

The_Minister

No one really tried to answer this so I'll give it a go.

Pocari Sweat wrote:

1. If mary is the holy mother of god, and jesus is the son of god, then surely isn't mary the grandmother of jesus? What's all that then?

Jesus is part of God. He ascended into heaven (allegedly) and rules with God and is referred to as part of God. Mary is the mother of Jesus. Its simple wordplay

Pocari Sweat wrote:

2. How come if adam and eve were the first two humans, and their sons and daughters followed, how did they get grandchildren without incest going on and was this acceptable in religious times? What's all that then?

Its more a practical thing(the incest ban) but I seem to remember some mass of humans "springing up". I'll look it up but I think it is explained (of course the Catholic Church believes it a metaphor. JP2 said that evolution may be more than a theorey.

Pocari Sweat wrote:

3. How come dinosaurs got missed out, back in religious times, and what was the bible doing not mentioning these? What's all that then?

The bible mentions few animals (except for Farmyard ones). Just because there are no biblical elephants does not mean that people don't think they exist.

Pocari Sweat wrote:

4. If the top commandment was thou shalt not kill, why were all the first born innocent babies of the egyptians getting killed by the religious authorities? What's all that then?

This is a mistranslation. It is more accurate to read "thou shalt not murder". Since the Egyptians had ignored and insulted God they were being righteously punished s it was not murder.

Pocari Sweat wrote:

5. If another commandment said thou shalt not commit adultery, then why was mary getting pregnant by someone else and not joseph? What's all that then?

It was immaculate (no sex involved) so it was not adultery. Thats like saying that women who get IVF are adulterous.

Pocari Sweat wrote:

6. How come innocent babies whose lives were cut short before they got christened, were sent to purgatory for an eternity of damnation? What's all that then?

This was never said by God but by the Catholic Church due to Original Sin. All humans are born tainted due to the first sin so if they die before baptisement they are still sinful. Oh and that is no longer held true and it was Limbo not pergatory.


There I have tried by best to answer your questions I am not that religious, but aside from number two all had simple and straightforward answers. If you were looking to trip up some Christians then you failed. In the context of the bible there are answers.

Pocari Sweat

Firespinner wrote:

No one really tried to answer this so I'll give it a go.

Jesus is part of God. ?

Its more a practical thing(the incest ban). ?

The bible mentions few animals. ?

This is a mistranslation. ?

Thats like saying that women who get IVF are adulterous. ?

This was never said by God ?

Firespinner, I have grave doubts about your soul if there is a god. I have never heard such a weaving of waffle like the stuff in your last post and I am very, very disappointed in you.

1. You mention JC rules with god in heaven, so it appears you are saying there are two gods. The bible also gives this view because they say jesus was the son of god. As mary is often quoted as being the mother of god, then either she is JC's grandmother in some daft way, or in your condradicting terms you sort of leave the possibilty that JC is his own grand dad.

2. What exactly is your answer for this question. Just talk straight and clear and genuinely like clown bag, or don't bother attempting it.

3. You are just being mendacious there. It is quite simple that Adam and Eve were not far off Noah in the bible timeline until JC came along, so we are only talking a few extra thousand years. The various common and less common animals, quoted or unquoted in the bible are not of concern to this debate. It is huge great massive, firey tempered, big teethed, giant Tyrannosaurus Rexs, I am worried about, running around Noah's Ark and in the lands of the bible times, if you are going to include them, who would have done some serious, eating of saints and prophets and other bible type people, because they took some serious feeding. Of course they should be mentioned, forget, earthquakes, floods, etc, they would be feckin terrifying.

4. Twisting stuff again. It is thou shalt not kill, lets read it as we read it. And we are not talking mere punishment, tap on the bum. We are talking wholesale slaughter of the young and often innocent, babies, yeh whip the fathers for "punishment", but as for killing - and in your words "murdering" young innocents for hypocritical reasons. You have not answered the Q.

5. Right, you are definitely getting worse fire. If your wife goes and gets IVF pregnant by another bloke, and comes home with a big belly, and you have not had chance to get her pregnant after marrying her, then she can say all she likes about dicks not being involved.

6. Again, you are twisting things right proper here. You are saying it was not said by god, when I already clearly stated all these 6 points were religious matters, and the top brain boxes in religion.


Firespinner, you are the typical, wavering, waffling, nonsense I hear from most religious types. Total dross.

Asiaprod

Pocari Sweat wrote:

Firespinner, I have grave doubts about your soul if there is a god. I have never heard such a weaving of waffle like the stuff in your last post and I am very, very disappointed in you.

You have been warned many times Pocari to cut this sh*t out. You were even asked politly to start a blog. You still don't get it do you! You are neither funny nor smart. This board was not formed so you could conduct your private rant against Christianity, and treating other posters here in this manner is not tolerated. You are begining to reflect badly on the rest of us. Any more and I will personnaly make it my mission to have your As* banned.
I am not joking.

Dades

Pocari Sweat wrote:

No harm in that, I wouldn't slag off The Atheist if she went cracked and started going on about religion

She?!

Pocari will be taking a week's retreat to reflect on life, the universe, and how not to post on this forum. Reading material should include the Charter.

Asiaprod wrote:

Any more and I will personnaly make it my mission to have your As* banned.

Then today is your lucky day.

That is all.

ronanp

2. How come if adam and eve were the first two humans, and their sons and daughters followed, how did they get grandchildren without incest going on and was this acceptable in religious times? What's all that then?

Rest easy, there's no need to fear that we are the product of a long line of incestous liaisons - there's no mention of Adam and Eve having any daughters!

Anyone I know who knows stuff about the bible says it's "thou shalt not murder", anyway...

Hagar

Pocari Sweat wrote:

But didn't the church just ban limbo last year

No they banned Mambo, dancing leads to sex.

Dades

Hagar wrote:

No they banned Mambo, dancing leads to sex.

Woo!
Underground Mambo classes, here I come...

lostexpectation

Asiaprod wrote:

You have been warned many times Pocari to cut this sh*t out. You were even asked politly to start a blog. You still don't get it do you! You are neither funny nor smart. This board was not formed so you could conduct your private rant against Christianity, and treating other posters here in this manner is not tolerated. You are begining to reflect badly on the rest of us. Any more and I will personnaly make it my mission to have your As* banned.
I am not joking.

huh mr sweat wasn't too bad(in this thread), firespinner gave good answers, but its all still highly dubious, eg righteous murder, firespinner didn't seem too bothered eitherway

imho

Asiaprod

lostexpectation wrote:

huh mr sweat wasn't too bad(in this thread), firespinner gave good answers, but its all still highly dubious, eg righteous murder, firespinner didn't seem too bothered eitherway

imho

Its all water under the bridge, it was nothing to do with answers, it was a question of tone and nothing more. Mr. Sweat writes some great stuff which I for one very much enjoy reading:)

Pocari Sweat

Well at this juncture I will resume me attendance on this thread after having me botty slapped.

Sorry for being a bit a schiessen haussen with my tone, I did not want to upset anyone with undue ranting, I sometimes get carried away.

So, righteous murder? Whats all that then?

God, gives up on adam and eve, and then makes a come back later on by whooping some ass in the way of wholesale slaughter of the first born of the egyptians, cos he is not a happy camper?

I know Cecille B. DeVille got a bit carried away in the 1950's with his mad genesis stuff, but its also a bit dodgey doing that sort of biblical type tackle with his particular surname, and depicting god as being righteous when also kicking ass with innocent offspring of naughtier parents.

The_Minister

Pocari Sweat wrote:

Firespinner, you are the typical, wavering, waffling, nonsense I hear from most religious types. Total dross.

I'm not going to respond to the rest of your points since you were clearly just hoping to be annoying, but I would point out that I'm actually not sure if there is a God and I come from a very laid-back house when it comes to religion. I mistook your questions as genuine and so tried to respond as best I could. I would suggest that if you really need to prove your an Athiest that badly then I doubt your "unbelief" is more than merely a rebellious sham. I think we'll be seeing a death-bed repentence from you yet.

Pocari Sweat

Fire, I remember we had some chit chat previously, I know although there is not much to go on, in putting the record straight on the tough questions in my OP from the side of the bible, I will still attempt as best I can to follow any users evaluations without much fussing or banter.

I will compliment you anyway on falling alongside the agnostic standing I have in neither taking atheism or god too seriously, they are not worth getting into a kerfuffle about.

Dades

Pocari Sweat wrote:

they are not worth getting into a kerfuffle about.

My sentiments exactly.

Welcome back Pocari. Remember just because God isn't, doesn't mean nobody is watching you.

Pocari Sweat

Oooh big brother.

Pocari Sweat

ronanp wrote:

Rest easy, there's no need to fear that we are the product of a long line of incestous liaisons - there's no mention of Adam and Eve having any daughters!

Were Kane and Abel giving their mother Eve a stuffing? Or was Eve abusing her sons, a bit like those other religious nut jobs that were doing the same to young boys - catholic priests. It seems ingrained in the code of the bible.

When Eve got pregnant by Kane and Abel, and maybe had a few daughters on the quiet, were Kane and Abel at it again, giving their hill billy sister type daughters a good stuffing too?

Adam and Eve, allowing family incest whether symbolic nonsense, still does'nt explain why the church engaged in wide spread rape, torture and murder of Irish children, as seen for example in Letterfrack in Connemara in the 1950's and 1960's, where the Christian Brothers of the Industrial School there, systematically raped and then killed dozens of young children that were trusted in their care, hiding their bodies in the grounds of the school to be found decades later.

Forget nazi germany and the politics of the time, just look at the holy church in peacetime, rural ireland, commiting far more brutal crimes and getting off scot free, and running other rackets like the slave laundries for girls at a similar time.

This nightmare vision of totalitarian hypocrasy, has not caused the removing of one stone of one single institution where these more serious crimes against humanity took place.

These places should have been flattened and the church made immediately accountable by the state, and a garden or rememberance put in their place, and although non church sex fiends are dealt with by mass protests and emergency legislation as seen in the last few weeks, it seems the more systematic, and extensive crimes the church are allowed to get away with, are somehow gently forgotten and service is resumed as normal, and church followers told to go about their business quietly and without any fuss.



oops this should be going in another thread.

pH

This sort of polemic does no one any good. Acusing the RC church of systematic child abuse is plain silly. No one in their right mind believes that the church in any way ordered or planned the abuse of children.

The accusation normally leveled against the church is that they covered it up and ignored it. Here I also disagree with the view that they did anything wrong. The church is not a police force and has no investigatory or disciplinary powers. If I am accused of a crime it is not my employers responsibility to investigate it or punish me (and yes I accept that they have a responsibility to co-operate fully with a legal investigation and that the RC church most likely did not do this).

We have a police force and a courts system to investigate and punish wrong-doers - if these cases were not investigated then look to those whose job it was to do this.

Dades

Pocari - why do you make me do this?

The obviously still haven't read the charter so now I have to make you disappear for a while again. You can come back maybe in a week if you can convince me of a reason why.

Bye bye.

mountainyman

Pocari Sweat wrote:

Sorry to go a bit monty python, I often forget this sometimes offends the odd bod.

Its your message board baby.
The bible doesn't mention dinosaurs because they'd died out when it was written.

Dinosaurs died out 75 million years ago.
The bible is max 5000 years old.

MM

Funsterdelux

Stephen wrote:

Bill Hicks has an answer for everything

LOL, why do the great die so young.:(