Going Pro

ChipLdr

Beware this is long as i've listed all my stats in the hope to get advice on whether its a pipe dream or reality.
EDIT:Its so hard to post readable data!!!!

As i'm finishing up college in a few weeks i've decided that rather go and get a job i'm gonna try go full time at poker. I understand the emotional and more importantly the financial considerations involved in pursuing such a career but am looking for solid advice on my targets.

I plan to play solid for the Summer and reassess my situation in the Autumn/Winter.I will mainly play cash games online at $.50/$1 and $1/$2. I plan to BR my self with $3000.

Below are my current stats.
Note: The Real Hours are calculated as if the games were played live.

My current Poker winnings/losses: This is from approx 10,000 hands

Profit Online Hours BB/Hr $/Hr

Totals: $ 3,163.54 565.9 16.5 $ 12.09

Although this may seem a poor ROI take a look at the horrible first two months

Month Win/Loss Since Table Hours Real Hours BB / hr $ / hr
Jan '06 $ -28.57 2006-01-03 215.2 87.3 -3.8 $ -0.33
Feb '06 $ -113.32 2006-02-04 189.7 76.7 1.7 $ -1.48

Its hard to read so basically i had an hourly loss of $-0.33 in January and an hourly loss of $ -1.48 in February

I played poker a lot in the first 2 months of the year soley on Tribeca tables.As you can see my stats are very poor.I dabbled in a lot of games mainly Longhand Ring Games.But look at what happened when i changed sites to Ladbrokes and focused on one game Shorthand Ring Games.

Month Win/Loss Since Table Hours Real Hours BB / hr $ / hr
Mar '06 $ 1,235.58 06/03/01 87.4 48.0 49.2 $ 25.74
Apr '06 $ 603.62 06-04-16 21.2 16.7 42.6 $ 36.21
May '06 $ 1,466.23 06-05-03 52.3 33.0 48.6 $ 44.42


The stats show that i had an hourly profit of $25.74 in March and an hourly profit of $ 36.21 in April and currently a $44.42 hourly profit in May.

I plan soley to continue playing shorthanded and my stats for it as shows are.

Short $0.50-1NL

Win/Loss SinceY/M/D Table Hours Real Hours BB / hr $ / hr
$ 2,833.09 2006-03-01 64.5 42.4 66.8 $ 66.80


These stats say that since i started palying Shorthanded ring games on the 1st March i'm making an average of $66.80 an hour

Reflection
During the first two months of the year it felt like hell. It seemed like Poker had lost all sense of skill and was just a another complete gamble. Outdraws and sick Bad Beats were a regular occurance and i went from being $1500 up in a week to being in the hole for over $500 during Mid Feb.I felt like giving up and never playing again and that poker was rigged and all that crap. And its extremely hard to rebuild confidence when a BR has been shattered.

So i moved sites and changed games and found my game is at its peak playing shorthanded ring games.3 months down the road I'm happier than ever with Poker and with life in general even though the ol Card Dead and Bad beat scenarios set in again to which i dont bat an eyelid to anymore.I feel i can push myself to succeed at making a living from online poker especially if i start receiving rakeback.

For this venture I will be multi tabling to a maximum of 2-3 tables at the levels described above.I must also add that i'm a poker fanatic and am always reading and always learning and developing new techniques to suit my playing style against different types of opponents. I will never take the view that i know it all .I would go as far as to say i'm "addicted" to poker but not the money side of things.I love everything poker stands for and how it affects ppl for the good and the bad.

Pipe Dream????? I'd love to hear your thoughts and suggestions especially those who have tried it and those who are achieving it.

Any other information that would be of assistance in assessing my potential success/failure i will be happy to give just ask.Thank you for reading if your not asleep by now

DC

Without reading too much into the stats, which seem quite decent if you look at the bottom line $/hr....

The question is, can you keep it up long enough to make a decent living. You are probably only playing a few hours a week, but if you did it all the time to make a living, would you get burnt out? Would the $/hr go down as you get more tired? I find poker tiring mentally.

Are you prepared to accept an inevitable losing street or a week with negative earnings?

In your favour is that you are young and probably without too much commitment. You can give it a go for a while and if it does not work out, you can just tell people at job interviews that you travelled the world for a year or something. If it works out we might see you on the telly

I would also advise a bit of research and development. Are you sure you are going to make the most money playing the games you are and at the stakes you are? If you are not, then you could be missing out on higher returns. Maybe experiment a bit more with different games, sites and stakes.


But, I'm not a poker pro. Just someone who like yourself could probably make some sort of living from Internet poker. But I find it very intense and tiring and it has highs and lows, which affect your mental state, so if you are prone to depression or anything bear that in mind.

jbravado

While in no position to give advice a few things strike me about your plans.
£3000 doesnt seem that large a starting bankroll-have you other funds which are going to pay real world expenses such as accomodation,food,a night out etc?What Im getting at is can you afford to have a losing month persay?
Do you have a set amount which you are hoping to earn perweek?Ive often thought winning a small amout per day as a little bonus is doable,but going pro is totally different.......

ChipLdr

What i should of mentioned is that i still live at home so only paying rent to the parents is the major expense and that is €50-€100 a week depending how much i make. I've discussed this with my parents who have seen me play poker over the last few years and now understand that its much more than another form of gambling (lol its funny ppl's misguided view on poker).

As you mentioned i'm young (21) and if i dont take this opportunity now i could never afford to in the future. If i lost all the $3000(which is highly unlikely at these levels) i simply return to the real world in the Autumn and get a job.I feel the summer provides me with the greatest opportunity as there will be a lot more new players online and with Pokertracker and PokerAce doing their job i should see this period as a profitable one. Now by no means am i being cocky and i will inevitably have weeks where nothing goes right but i finally have the emotional side of poker under control and i simply reload(without the steam) now after a poker of kings dogs my house of aces on the river.


I also agree with the fatigue factor involved with playing poker and have stats that show i am a consistent winner when playing up to 2 and 1/2 hours at a time and i tend to only lose money after that so i'll be strict with my sessions.
I have always followed two golden rules playing online. Dont play when i'm one bit tired or when i'm drinking. Simple things like this can improve one's game dramatically.

Having experienced a horrible first two months of the year i feel i can definately handle the emotional side of things. I still blame Tribeca j/k.I've discussed it with my gf and she was hesitant at first but after showing her all the stats she's happy with it. (if there's a new pair of shoes involved or something crazy like that )

Seriously though the main reason i'm doing this is because of ppl around me that believe in me and give me their support. I wouldnt be able to take this on if my family were unhappy as that would bring in other issues that would inevitably affect my game.

NickyOD

Obviously you are doing well enough online for poker to be a decent income. What I would say to you though is that you need to be aware of how different it is when its your only income. You may begin to feel under pressure and after some time it may feel like "work". Sitting on your ass all day and all week aint good for your health or the soul so make sure you get out a lot and have an active life. It can be very isolating so be sure to play some live poker when you can 'cos its a hell of a lot more fun. The main reason you would consider playing poker for a living is because of the freedom it gives you so be sure not to let it take of your life. Make sure you are financially extremely secure, with no debts, plenty of money in the bank and your bankroll well padded.

Best of luck.

ianmc38

No harm in trying. If I didn't have a good job I'd try it myself. As it stands, I'm paid too much to even consider leaving (well for now anyway). I'm not sure if I'd like the stress of playing poker for a living either. I'd probably overthink the financial aspect of it, as right now, losing a buyin or winning 10 buyins doesnt affect me in anyway. If it threatened my livelihood, I'm sure i'd think differently about it. I don't think I could bluff an entire buy-in at 2/4 where as now I can happily do it.

best of luck with it all though. Hope it works out for you.

ChipLdr

I plan to get fit again in the summer and return to training and football which i had to give up because of college and work.Poker allows me to do this.I will play a lot more live also as that has been a consistent earner.

I will ressurect my blog to keep everybody informed. Thank you all for your support and suggestions. I plan to start after June 10th.

DeVore

Firstly read my blog in my sig where I put my thoughts on something very similar to your question.

Secondly you have an opportunity because you arent leaving a good job and you can afford to fail because you can fall back on family and go get a job so you arent risking as much as others would be.

But what are your LONG term plans? Have you thought about 3-5 years from now?

DeV.

willis

Go for it. I regret not taking a year out after college to try my hand at being a pro. Living at home is a great benefit for you so my advice would be try it now or you might regret it. If you fail so what, at least when your in a poxy 9-5 job you wont be sitting there wondering what life would have been like if you played poker for a living. Youre gonna be in the workplace till your 65 touch wood, so starting a year later would be no harm. Some people tell you poker is very stressful way of making a living. Well if ya want stress try standing out in the freezing cold and rain at 730am 5days a week, and then standing in the pissing rain waiting for your bus which is 40mins late at 630pm!!PS-get a rakeback deal if ya dont have one

ChipLdr

My long term plans(if this succeeds) involve moving up in stakes as my BR allows and continue to stay pro. I hope to move away to the states preferably in a few years and well if poker fails, i stole(i mean earned) a Degree in ICT from Trinity which will get me somewhere .

Other options upon poker failure include a return to do a PG in something like Entrepeneurship or something that rocks like Geology(poor joke just heard it a second ago).

Lafortezza

What year are you in college?

Plus: Not a bad idea to take a stab at it when you've a couple of months off college and think you can win. You seems to be good enough to make decent money. You don't have any expenses apart from the rent.

Minus: Not enough bankroll imo. Not enough hands to be sure what your true win rate is. Discipline to put in 30+ hours a week. Discipline to play through any bad streaks. Playing long hours can be incredibly boring.

As Dev said you should think about the medium and long term plan. If you have a successful summer are you still going back to college no matter what?
What if you make alot of money and/or win a big MTT and have a bankroll of $15k+ and think that you can win more?

I think poker is a fantastic 2nd source of income, I would hate it to be my only source of income.

ChipLdr

sorry laf i mentioned in first post that i'm finished college.I still think $3000 is suitable for $0.50/$1. The earnings mentioned do not include rakeback and as i only have played on three or four sites not a lot of bonusses

Rnger

Gl

RoundTower

Play more hands and get a bigger bankroll. If you're doing as good as you say you can double that BR in a month playing part time. Also post more hands. I'm not trying to be mean or condescending but I haven't seen you write anything that stood out to me or made me think "that guy is definitely a good player, understands the game well." Maybe you just haven't posted enough.

From what you've said, and speaking as an amateur hobby player myself, I don't think you're ready to become a full time professional poker player. If you're still living at home and only need spending money and have something to fall back on, you can give it a shot.

MrPillowTalk

2nd bloomin time writing this grr computers.

Your right that this is the best time for you to try as inessence you dont really stand to lose as much as someone redirecting their entire life.

Some observations on your post.
1) you simply havent played near enough hands to know wheither this is a viable option, but your results thus far are encouraging.

2) the general rule is you should have 3 months living expenses completely seperate from your BR before trying in order to faciltate your attempt.

3) be prepared for what is now a hobby to become WORK.

Some of my own thoughts on the subject, and this is a subject I have given a lot of thought to:

Firstly ask yourself if you can expect to eventually earn a good income from another source, if you can then I would suggest continuing on that carreer path and keeping poker as a hobby/2nd job is your best bet. There are VERY few millionaire poker players but there are plenty of millionaire doctors/solicitors/builders etc etc this is worth keeping in mind. Lets say for arguments sake you can earn €1000 p/week grinding it out at poker you immediately think that "man this is great I only earn €500 in my day job" however in ten years time your normal jobs earnings are likely to have increased at a steady rate but it is all too possible that you are still earning the same ammount playing poker as you were a decade before, and allthough it seems great now try paying a mortgage/expenses/having a family etc and see how much is left out of that grand a week, and thats before you deal with downswings and such.

Then there is the lifestyle, it could become a lonley aul existence, and also has an awful lot of inherent risk, nearly every other job you could choose will offer a more socially interactive life whilst probably being much safer to boot. These are things that need to be taken into account.

Personally I make an awful lot more money playing cards than I do from working at the moment and would be lying if I said playing fulltime didnt cross my mind often but here are my reasons not to.

At the moment I play 20-25 hours a week if I quit work I could easily double that, based on my results from the last year or so I think I could safely expect to make €150k p/annum this is factoring in a 25% fatigue factor on expected profits in the extra hours played. However I think that I am basically earning as much now as I am ever likely to from poker which means I believe I have little reason to think I could increase this figure in leaps and bounds over time. Dont get me wrong, that is a good chunk of change and represents a very nice life however I think if I continue on my current carreer path and I am successful I can probably exceed these figures and have a better and more secure lifestyle as well. It seems a better option to me to have poker as a keen interest that makes you money rather than your primary income stream, it is also very nice to have a variance free wage packet coming in every week that takes the pressure off having to win x ammount per week, pressure is a terrible thing for most peoples poker game, if I feel I HAVE to win the only sure thing is I'm more likely to lose.

Also at the moment with pokers popularity exploding the climate is good for making money there are plenty of new players contributing to the poker economy, will this last forever? I hope it does but wouldnt bet against it leveling off in a few years and eventually the abundance of fish being netted. Then there is the political climate, current threats from Leinster house could mean that live poker will stop being as accessable as it tis at present this would leave you spending 40 hours a week with no one to talk to at a computer screen clicking fold/check/raise all day anyone think that wouldnt become a serious bore after a while? Then theres tax which luckily enough is not relevant wrt gambling income in Ireland at present, but personally I wouldnt bet on it staying that way indefinately we live in the "if it moves tax it" era and Irish govts have track records of finding ingenious ways to create taxes.

Devs blog post shows a good approximation of what the day to day realities of being a pro would entail give it a read. Im not trying to put you off going down this path, but be aware of the realities of what you are proposing, best of luck. Personally I have too many commitments and enjoy working too much for it to ever be a realistic choice but for some people it could be the best carreer path to choose, also I love poker and wouldnt like to grow tired of it. Train to be honest with yourself as to your own abilities and reasonable expectations, dont explain away losing periods without really analysing them.

my 2 cents anyways

DeVore

What I meant is, Is this what you want to do for the rest of your life? Because if you are successful you then wont really be able to get a job without explaining what you have been doing for the last 3-5 years. You need to be ready to accept the consequences of success as well as failure.

No harm in giving it a shot for a while to see how you do though!

DeV.

FastMachine

Nice results over the last 3 months chipdlr, well done. Looks like you're good enough to play for a living and 3K is plenty for .50/1 especially as you're a winning player. Playing poker for a living is a fuccking great job, no question about it. The only downside I've experienced is the stress when you're running bad. Great money, flexible hours, no stick from the boss and an enjoyable way to spend your time, what more could you ask for.

I'm heading off to New York for a holiday in a week, booked it less than two weeks ago on a whim, money was no object and I can even play poker online in my hotel room if I feel like it (which I will:)). Not many other jobs can offer you the opportunities poker can in such a short space of time. I could hardly even have afforded a trip to wales this time last year.

Some general advice:
Aim for 20 buyins before you move up a level. The standard doesn't really improve too much until you reach 5/10, so it is possible to move up fairly quickly. You have to be comfortable with the swings on a given level though or you won't play your best/get stressed out. I'm not comfortable with the swings on 10/20 and even 5/10 at the moment so I stick to 2/4 and 3/6 where I can play stress free. Sometimes I'll see a table full of fish at the higher levels and my first instinct is to dive right in but I just don't feel like wrecking my head with +3K swings at the moment. I've always thought making as much cash as possible was my main goal, but now I see that it's making as much cash as possible while enjoying myself and having a stress-free reasonable lifestyle.

Don't get complacent and start thinking it's too easy, always play your best and it will seem relatively easy.

At some stage you'll run very bad, this can finish some players off. I've seen 2 or 3 winning players crack during an extended bad run and never recover. I had a bastard of a downswing recently and moved back to 2/4 and 3/6 which worked out great. It mightn't sound like much but moving down instead of remaining at your current level/moving up, can make all the difference.

It can be very stressful when things aren't going well, I was waking up every day with a headache and in a bit of a depression during my recent downswing. Take a week's break if it's getting to you or if you feel your game slipping. Ideally take it before you start dropping money left, right and centre.
I've said a good bit about running bad as in my experience this was by far the most difficult aspect of playing poker for a living.

Start looking at what sports car you're going to buy when the $$$'s start rolling in

delanec8

Nice Post. I'm in a pretty similar position to you. Im finishing college on tuesday and am giving the pro poker thing a shot. However, i havent had a job since i was 17 and have paid my way through college solely on poker so ive been a semi pro of sorts for a while now.

I think you should definetely give it a shot, at least a trial throughout the summer and re-assess after that. You seem to have the enthusiasm and determination to make it work. Best of luck

kincsem

Go out when the weather is fine. Play poker when it bad outside.

I believe boredom is the one thing that stops people playing. To quote Doyle Brunson "If you live long enough you see it all".

Have these happened to you?

A royal flush with two of it in your hand.
Pocket aces two in a row.
Winning with an ace in your hand with quads on the board.
Having two players virtually dead: you holding e.g. KK with both holding JJ
All-in with a higher pair and the other player flops quads to his small pair.
A straight flush on board.
Going 60 or 70 hands without winning.

I'm just wondering are you still in love with the game and the interesting situations. When you see hundreds of weird hands the effect wears off. Keeping interested and fresh is the challenge IMO.

hotspur

I would say by all means indulge in it full time in the summer, but then seriously think about a proper career. I don't want talk down your success so far but having earned about $3k at low limits and deciding you should become a pro is the equivalent of watching an episode of ER and deciding you can be a surgeon. It's pretty crazy, if anyone in any other field of games or sports announced this as their earnings in the sport to date and therefore they are turning pro you would probably burst out laughing.

There are tens of thousands of people just like you finishing college and thinking that playing Internet poker fulltime is a good idea because they've managed to win a tiny amount at microlimits just by being patient. I'd love to give them all a good shake. There is so much more to a career and a job than the money, and when you wake up in the morning with nowhere to go where you belong and spending the whole day on your own you may not be very happy.

Also why decide to play fulltime before you've even played at proper stakes to find out if you really have talent? I would stongly suggest not avoiding facing up to having to find yourself a real career (which is what it is *always* really about), and continue to play poker in your spare time at least until you reach a level where you can pull in that $3k each good week. I just really really feel that people deciding to play full time from playing .50/1 or 1/2 is insane, and you'll probably ruin a hobby you love.

But good luck to you playing in the summer, I hope it goes well for you and you get what you want from it. And $3k is fine for the stakes you are planning to play as a bankroll but if you are planning to build your bankroll for bigger games then you will effectively live like an unemployed person as you cannot really think to build a significant bankroll *and* make a living at such small stakes at the same time.

ditpoker

best of luck with this glen... something i've dreamt about but dont have the stones to try it.. im at same stage as yourself college wise but would not be too keen on losing $3000 this is an interesting thread though reading people's takes on this. I think your figures dictate that you have to have a go at it... it'll be interesting to see the update in 3 months time.... BEST OF LUCK!

ocallagh

There is some really great advice in this thread. I may be repeating what others have said.. but here are a few points I feel are important.

1) Don't play when drunk! Simple but effective
2) Try to maintain a balanced lifestyle.
3) Take plenty of breaks.. and enjoy your winnings!

Best of luck.

ecksor

kincsem wrote:

A royal flush with two of it in your hand.
Pocket aces two in a row.
Winning with an ace in your hand with quads on the board.
Having two players virtually dead: you holding e.g. KK with both holding JJ
All-in with a higher pair and the other player flops quads to his small pair.
A straight flush on board.
Going 60 or 70 hands without winning.

Not sure about the last one but I've had all of the other situations at least once and I've only been playing for a little over a year ...

Lafortezza

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=5818945&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

ianmc38

I wouldn't be too concerned about playing professionally at 1/2. I could easily earn a good living from single tabling 1/2. There are loads of pros playing 1/2 and making alot of money from it, though most do play some higher stakes as well.

ChipLdr

First off i would like to say thank you for all your support,suggestions etc.As i have stated this "Pro" experience is merely a trial period.If i crash and burn come Autumn well at least as Willis said, I tried it!

Although some may view this attempt as a mere publicity/boasting opportunity for myself,i strongly disagree.In fact i actually expected a lot more negative comments than supporting ones given my age and the poker levels i play at.Advice is one thing that can't be bought(no puns plz ) and to hear comments from such players that i have followed in tourneys and blogs and whatnot gives me further drive and determination to make this project a successful one.


As Hotspur wrote:
There is so much more to a career and a job than the money, and when you wake up in the morning with nowhere to go where you belong and spending the whole day on your own you may not be very happy.EndQuote

Its true that in theory becoming a pro poker player seems like a great job until of course you think of the effects it may have on ones life.I've been playing poker a few years now and to say i ran bad for January and February is a huge understatement. It seemed during these months that i had lost all skill and all love for the game of poker. I felt like giving it all up and never EVER playing again.

But deep down i knew i loved the game too much.I dusted myself down after losing €2000 by mid February and climbed right back on the horse.Confidence was slow to return but i grinded at it and soon i started making money but more importantly i started being more assertive and controlled and soon a bad beat was something to smile about.

When i'm not playing it,i'm busying myself thinking of new strategies and ideas and am always learning more and more.I never ever play at levels i'm not comfortable with and i know .50/1 and 1/2 mightn't seem a lot to some ppl but when(if) the BR grows then of course i'll move up. I will post hands when i get home as they're all stored in PT.

Once again i would like to thank you all for your suggestions. Keep them coming. I feel i've just made myself a marked man whenever i walk into a Fitz cash game again LOL. But at least i'll get action

DC

You mentioned something about a postgrad.

Assuming you get at least 2nd class honours, why not consider doing your MSc through research? I.e. no fixed lectures, just research when you want and play poker when you want. You can always apply for a research grant to give yourself at least a partial fixed income (e.g. 16K a year + about 8K in expenses - for example that ICT conference in Vienna - from most research funds) and supplement that income with your poker.

If that works out, you could switch to PhD after a year or two.

Just something to think about if you are uncertain about your future career and want to have some sort of outlet outside of poker as well.

pok3rplaya

I think if you were 32 and about to quit a full time job based on this plan I would say "no way don't do it" but your not in that situation and at the moment have very little to lose.

Just be aware that;

a) you have not played near enough hands to have a clue what your real winrate is or could be.

b) prepare to have a -$2000 day at some stage and remember that you have to wake up the next day and keep playing your usual game. (It doesn't feel too good).

c) Your bankroll is only just about big enough. ie if you had more financial responsibilities it wouldn't be near enough in my opinion.

Other then that, go for it and good luck. I'm playing full time over the summer myself by the way - race to $50,000??

Oh and thanks for that post MrPillowTalk.

pok3rplaya

DeVore wrote:

if you are successful you then wont really be able to get a job without explaining what you have been doing for the last 3-5 years.

This keeps me awake at night.

El Stuntman

kincsem wrote:

To quote Doyle Brunson "If you live long enough you see it all".
Going 60 or 70 hands without winning.

This is very normal for me :mad:

Chip Ldr, go for it...I have some reservations about the size of your starting bankroll but if you can maintain your current form when playing full-time there's no reason why you can't maintain yourself very nicely at this stage of your life.

Put it this way - do you want to be stuck in an office five years from now staring at the clock ticking oh-so-slowly around to 5.30pm and wondering 'what if?'....

pok3rplaya

I think in 5 years from now all us 'pro' players will be working 9 to 5 in regular jobs because we won't be able to make a (much) better living at poker. The state of online NL is evolving and tightening, thats something to keep in mind too.

Culchie

El Stuntman wrote:

Put it this way - do you want to be stuck in an office five years from now staring at the clock ticking oh-so-slowly around to 5.30pm and wondering 'what if?'....

This isn't really the way to look at it.

I'm going to be a stick in the mud as usual.

I think if you've graduated from College you should carry on with your career. Poker isn't going anywhere, it'll be there on your PC whenever you get home, or you can pop down to your local casino wheneber you feel like it.

Having a job and a career isn't about being stuck in an office. If you have the balls to try pro poker then it strikes me you have the kop on not to get stuck in a dead end job either.
BTW, by the time you're 35, I doubt there will be 'offices' anyway.

Make your life interesting while you are young, meet people, travel the world, learn how to ski.....don't worry about moving pixels on a PC screen.

By all means have a bash at it for the experiment, even then I'd say you're wasting a summer you can't get back.

Interesting to note that the 'old fart' posters on the thread are offering differing opinions to the 'young bucks'.

ChipLdr

I've spent 5 years at school doing subjects i didnt wanna do and then 4 years in college doing a subject that only slightly appealed to me. I now have the opportunity to finally do something that i love and i will work damn hard at it.

Some great posts by the way. I hope i can come back in the winter and report good progress but if not i'll never have the regret of trying it out.

If i lost the $3000 i'd rather lose it doing something i like rather than at horses,roulette or some crazy gamble gamble game. This may come across as a negative attitude but i'm prepared for the worse.If i fall on my face then so be it but i dont want that feeling of what could've been if i dont take this opportunity!!!!

Of course in the future there will be more bills and more respoonsibilities that might change my career but when the 10th June rolls along the Tournament director in me will scream SHUFFLE UP AND DEAL .

5starpool

Culchie wrote:

BTW, by the time you're 35, I doubt there will be 'offices' anyway.

Oh by Christ I wish this were true.

AmarilloFats

Chpldr,
The very best of luck..This is from the hustler. Like it.

Gordon: I don't think there's a pool player alive who shoots better pool than I saw you shoot the other night at Ames. You got talent.
Eddie: So I got talent? So what beat me?
Gordon: Character.
Eddie: Sure, sure.
Gordon: You're damn right I'm sure. Everybody's got talent, I got talent. You think you can play big-money straight pool or poker for forty straight hours on nothing but talent? You think they call Minnesota Fats the best in the country just cause he got talent? Nah, Minnesota Fats's got more character in one finger than you got in your whole skinny body.

Gordon: Eddie, is it all right if I get Personal?
Eddie: Whaddya been so far?
Gordon: Eddie, you're a born loser.
Eddie: What's that supposed to mean?
Gordon: First time in ten years I ever saw Minnesota Fats hooked, really hooked. But you let him off.
Eddie: I told you, I got drunk.
Gordon: Sure you got drunk, the best excuse in the world for losin'. No trouble losin' when you got a good excuse. And winning - that can be heavy on your back too, like a monkey. Drop that load too when you got an excuse. All you gotta do is learn to feel sorry for yourself. That's one of the best indoor sports, feelin' sorry for yourself. A sport enjoyed by all - especially the born loser.

pok3rplaya

Culchie wrote:

Poker isn't going anywhere, it'll be there on your PC whenever you get home, or you can pop down to your local casino wheneber you feel like it.

I don't think this is true. Your average NL player is slowly getting better and better. I don't think this game will survive for an infinite amount of time in a state that ensures it stays as profitable as it is at the moment. Players are copping on, poker skills improving books and other information is becomming more plentiful and widely available. Lots of long term players have said that party 25NL tables are way tighter now then they were back in the day (though this is unsure because there was a different blind structure in the cash games, I still think it has some meaning though).

I say milk poker for all you can now while it's still juicy. I don't think it has long left to live in its present state.

And plus.. in what other accesible job could you make a quarter mil a year at 21yo?

Cianos

ChipLdr..

Playing professionaly is going to effect you in ways that you cant appreciate right now.

Just always remember that you can get out at any time, there are many things far more important than making money, and the highest income doesnt mean the best life.

Also, make sure you have a means to vent the negative energy from poker because it is unfair to take it out on family/friends.

fuzzbox

pok3rplaya wrote:

Your average NL player is slowly getting better and better.

But they still suck at PLO ... and deuce-seven triple draw is only new ... thats gonna be next .... the games continually evolve.

ianmc38

Cianos wrote:

ChipLdr..

Also, make sure you have a means to vent the negative energy from poker because it is unfair to take it out on family/friends.

Very important point. I've vented it on the wrong people way too many times at this stage.

Beware of the downs. over the last two weeks, I estimate bad beats have cost me in excess of 8000K. after a stream of them, the last two days ive been playing crap poker as a result on some sort of perpetual tilt. Believe me it doesnt do your frame of mind good, and its not even my own cash that i lost over the last two weeks.

If I were you my friend, I would look for something else to do half of the time, because the poker highs will be just as good, but the lows won't be the end of the world because youve got outs -

TacT

Go for it and the very best of luck. Be sure and let us know how it goes. Been making steady money at .50/1 for over a year now. I've never had a month of loss but I have had one lousy month where I made a pitiful profit but I'm still persevering and taking money off the fish. Biggest downswing to date has been €560 in a week and my biggest winnings for a week was circa €1200 between a small mtt win and my cash game profits. Just think long term and try not to let the fish get to you.

I did the same thing in March of last year with a $1K bankroll and it has worked out nicely (despite everyone thinking I'm a lunatic for having such a low bankroll). Take regular breaks, don't play for too long and make sure and put some aside for holidays. I'll be gone for over a month the Summer myself

Chomp

My first post, so hello to you.

Hi ChpLdr…I have a few points on your original post.


1. Honesty and Reality
You seem to be disregarding your 2 losing months, and only concentrating on your 2.5 winning months. Why? Why are you only counting your wins/losses from March, when you started playing in January? Half of your year's play to date has been spent losing. (I know you've changed games, but see point 3 below on this issue.)

This kind of blinkered vision is very, very dangerous for a poker player IMO. Are you sure that June won't see a repeat of January and February rather than March and April?

I think you are not in control of your psychology here – a deadly error for any poker player. This kind of wilful disregard of losses is not a good sign. Here's a FACT; your profits since January, almost half the year, are c. $3,000 (c. €2,000). Those are not your profits since March. They are your profits since January. That is a fact that you should not hide from.

You seem to have simply disregarded 2 whole months and are basing your calcuations on your latest rushy 2.5 months of play. Any poker pro will tell you that this is a disastrous approach. If you try to convince yourself that the last 2 months is the "real" poker you and that those silly first 2 months you spent losing were just a warm-up for the real show, then IMO you are in no position psychologically to move forward with your game.

Think VERY long and hard about how honest you are being with yourself on this point.


2. 10,000 hands is 20 days full time poker play
If you play 6/7/8 hours a day at say 80 hands an hour at a shorthanded table, that's c.500 hands a day, so 10,000 is about 20 days of "full time" gameplay.

You are considering professional poker on the basis of 20 days full time play.

Please, please be honest with yourself here. 20 days of full time play. Say it again to yourself. 20 days. Think about it. People spend 20 years playing the game and still come out a loser in the end. You have spent 20 days making modest profits and think you have it cracked. I make no comment on whether you have cracked it or not, but please, please consider the 20 days issue.

IMO, 20 months is the time to decide if you have the ability. But not 20 days.

PLEASE, PLEASE consider this point carefully.



3. Changing games/stakes
Ok, so you changed games and your profits started growing. Fine. But when you change games/stakes (say from Limit to No limit, or .5/1 to 1/2) you almost always experience a rush. This is because you are extra-concentrated trying to get the feel of the new game. You watch every hand and play cautiously. This is almost always true, even if you move up a limit. And that rush can easily last a couple of months

But what about in 3 months time? Will you still be that concentrated on the "new game"? Will the "newness" of the game wear off? Will you find youself back to your January/February game and not your March/April game? Why do you think that the 2 months spent toiling at the full handed table will not be repeated in 2 more months toiling at the SH ones?

You are still experiencing a new game rush IMO.

The difference for you at the moment between being a losing player and being a pro is that you dropped 4 players and moved to a different site. Your game hasn’t improved, you have just shifted the scenery a bit. Think about that carefully. That is a monumental jump on the basis of very peripheral factors.


4. Short handed v. Full Tables
There is a HUGE difference (as you've noticed) between SH and full tables. Shorthanded play is a much more aggressive and intense game.

If you are going to play SH alone, you need to be very, very focused, never have any down-time at the table and always play aggressively. Even a 2 hour session is tough. This is an extraordinarily tiring and stressful way to play poker. You must consider this.

Moreover, why did you lose at the full tables? It is still the same poker game after all. The same hands, the same odds, the same BR management, the same skill of players (essentially). But you lost? Why? Are you seriously saying that a 10 handed game beat you but a 6 handed game, no problem? Does that make sense? Does losing those 4 players make the difference between being a loser and being a pro? IMO, absolutely no way.

This approach, to me, with the greatest respect, is not the psychology of a pro. You should be able to beat both games. Being confined to only being able to win at short handed games is far too dangerous.

Deep down, I think you might know this but are not acknowledging it to yourself.


5. Moving Up
The difference between, say a .5/1 game and a 1/2 game is ENORMOUS. Never mind moving to a 2/4 game or higher. The jump in skill levels are exponential from one level to the next.

You need a whole new set of skills to beat a 2/4 game than you did at the .5/1 game. So the assumption that moving up the ladder is inevitable (as you seek to increase your profits) is mistaken. You will need to learn and lose at higher stakes before you win at them. Please bear this in mind.

Beating .5/1 for 6 months doesn’t necessarily mean you are ready for ½, so base your calculations moving forward with this in mind.


6. A Sunny June Day
Playing poker on a wet January evening after college is easy. It is a fun hobby. Playing it at 11am on a lovely June morning is quite another. Lose €200 before lunch on a sunny day, and you still have another 4 or 5 hours to go to pay your rent.

This is when the game can become very, very unpleasant indeed. How will you concentrate in the sun? Do you have the discipline? Can you fold 8 hands out of 10 for 8 hours, 6 days a week?


7. Your age
When I was 21 there is NO WAY ON EARTH I could have sat at a poker table for 7 hours a day and folded 80% of my hands, hour after hour, day after day, month after month. No way. Impossible for me at that age.

Maybe you are different and I don't want to patronise you - I'm sure there are many world-class 21 y/o poker players! But it is not every 21 year old. Discipline and self-control at that age is in many ways unnatural. Mother nature is telling you to be adventurous, spread your oats, chase women, spread your seed, fight your fights, become a hunter-gatherer. That is 100% natural and healthy for a 21 y/o.

But that is not compatible with being a stone-cold pro poker player (unless you are Gus Hansen). Please consider this the next time you fold every hand for 3 hours and loose your entire stack on a silly, tilty draw.


8. You will give pro play a go no matter what!
I know you will listen to all the advice here. I know you are probably a smart guy and want to learn. But here's the problem: the only real way to get a poker education is to pay for it. That is the only way. So in the end you will listen to all the advice you can, but you will still give full time poker a go. I can 100% guarantee it. Even if a World Champion came on here and told you it was a terrible idea, you'd still do it.

That is not a criticism of you at all. It is merely a reality. You will only feel at ease with yourself if you give it a go. So don't feel bad if you disregard advice, then loose money. That is part of the game. You need to make and pay for your own mistakes.



9. Talent
There is always the outside chance that you are a natural talent at the game. The Ronaldinhio of the tables. That is not impossible. If so, fill your boots at the tables and disregard all advice, especially mine!

If you are a natural talent and find you always come out ahead every month for a year, then it is just possible you are one of the gifted few. If this is the case, you'll know soon enough and should certainly ignore the advice of a mere hoofer like me!

But if you are a normal mortal (only time will tell) then I think you will struggle to turn a living wage in your first year. Maybe you’ll finish ahead, but I don’t think you’ll earn your current $1,500 pm. That is my honest opinion, and I don’’t want to piss on your chips. I'll be very interested to follow your progress in the coming months.

................

BTW, I am a very average poker player. I love the game and try to pay my rent playing full handed 1/2 NL ring games on various sites (I play .5/1 when running cold). Some days I win $300, some days I loose the same. But it is all about the steady, long-term movement, either up or down.

There is nowhere to hide from your bankroll. It is either going forwards or backwards. End of story. You can choose artifical cut-off points if you like (“Ok, I start playing for REAL today!”) but only the long space-time continuum will tell you.

Luckily for me, I have been modestly up as I have tried to improve my game over the last 3 or 4 years. I still struggle to make my target €900 p/m, but slowly and surely I am getting closer to it. I think that after 5 years of playing, several hours a day, 7 days a week, I might meet my goal at some point in the next year or so.


Finally, and most importantly, good luck and ENJOY the game. Losing poker as a fun hobby is a high price to pay unless you are really going to clean up.


Peace,

Chomp.

El Stuntman

Deleted User wrote:

Beware of the downs. over the last two weeks, I estimate bad beats have cost me in excess of 8000K.

Are you Bill Gates?

kincsem

ecksor wrote:

Not sure about the last one but I've had all of the other situations at least once and I've only been playing for a little over a year ...

kincsem wrote:

Going 60 or 70 hands without winning....

I once went through the first 63 hands in a PokerStars tourney before I won a hand. When I looked at the hand history I though I had played reasonably. There were dozens of unplayable starting hands, followed by never hitting a flop, and never having the position or chips to steal.

I'm now trying to reach the ton.

I was just trying to test if the new pro had a bit of mileage under his belt. I once thought I could be a successful horse-racing gambler until I realised that a 5% profit margin (the public lose 15%-20%) had to be matched with a €500,000 a year turnover to yield €25,000 a year. That broke down to betting €1,500 a day, every day of the year. :eek:

ChipLdr

Chomp wrote:

My first post, so hello to you.

Hi ChpLdr…I have a few points on your original post.


1. Honesty and Reality
You seem to be disregarding your 2 losing months, and only concentrating on your 2.5 winning months. Why? Why are you only counting your wins/losses from March, when you started playing in January? Half of your year's play to date has been spent losing. (I know you've changed games, but see point 3 below on this issue.)

This kind of blinkered vision is very, very dangerous for a poker player IMO. Are you sure that June won't see a repeat of January and February rather than March and April?

I think you are not in control of your psychology here – a deadly error for any poker player. This kind of wilful disregard of losses is not a good sign. Here's a FACT; your profits since January, almost half the year, are c. $3,000 (c. €2,000). Those are not your profits since March. They are your profits since January. That is a fact that you should not hide from.

You seem to have simply disregarded 2 whole months and are basing your calcuations on your latest rushy 2.5 months of play. Any poker pro will tell you that this is a disastrous approach. If you try to convince yourself that the last 2 months is the "real" poker you and that those silly first 2 months you spent losing were just a warm-up for the real show, then IMO you are in no position psychologically to move forward with your game.

Think VERY long and hard about how honest you are being with yourself on this point.

This is very good point and i'm glad you brought it up. If i wanted to hide from my losses i wouldn't have posted them. I posted them to show ppl how bad of a run i've had and to show that i am capable of dealing with loss. Below are the reasons for my losses in the first two months.


As the saying goes "you only learn from your mistakes" and in the first two months i made big mistakes. I played far too much and i played poorly.I think i clocked over 400 hours of online poker within the first two months.I didnt take breaks and i went on tilt.I'm not ashamed to admit these faults but i have worked on them considerably.

I also did not have PT or PA which have proved invaluable in deciding where to play and who to play against. In the first two months i was constantly playing against the same players and playing them the way i would play against any player.I never adjusted my game against different types of players.This was a serious problem as i was basically telling them what i had every hand and thus i wouldnt get paid out.

I would play with 'scared' money during these months and any reraise to me would see me wimper out of the pot.It takes balls to play poker and admittedly during Jan-Feb i didnt have any.I was far too passive and missed glorious opportunities to maximise my winnings

After i lost €2000 in Jan-Feb i took a break from playing and decided i needed to learn even more about my game and other players.Without this losing streak i would have been blind to the fact that i'm nowhere near the perfect poker player.But i dug myself out of this rut and have successfully turned this loss into profit.

Changes Made:

I have taken a big look at how i played poker against all types of opposition.During the first 2 months i played a TP game and this allowed ppl to play back at me.I realised during my break that i could not play poker again with scared money as i was passing up edges.If i was to return to poker i needed to toughen up.

I have fiddled with PT for hours for days anaylysing where i'm losing money and more importanly WHY!! I will trawl poker sites looking for high VP%IP and if there is none available i simply play against solid opposition.I'm making moves against solid opposition that i wouldn't have dreamt of against the same type of player 3 months back.I'm not being pushed around anymore but by no means am i wreckless.

My game is totally different and for it to stay as fresh as i want it to saty i am constantly changing my strategy based on the opposition i'm playing. I am playing on multiple sites now in order to keep me focused but i now treat each poker day as a new experience and not as an easy way to make money.

The 10,000 hands issue is only those calculated by PT which was purchased on the 23/02/06 so i guess i have been inaccurate in providing the exact hand amount.It is infact a good bit more than that and i will provide that information once i can retrieve it.

Now I wont play the same shorthanded game for more than 2 hours without a break.I will multi table to a maximum 3 tables but the norm is two. If i'm going card dead i'm already making notes on other players. I play with no distractions such as t.v. etc. I'm keeping myself focused now where as before i would drift in and out of games.

I know it might have looked like i ignored the first two months but i went through hell during them and believe me i am not shying away from them.I believe that i am making money now because of how i've changed my game.

While it may seem i'm making excuses for my losses i am fully focused on the job that lies ahead.The months from March havent been full of roses and i've suffered my fair share of BB's but the reason i'm making money is because i'm not letting them affect me the way they used to.

My mentality is totally different and i feel i've grown up a lot this year and its ironic but losing that much money in the first two months was probably the best thing that happened to my Poker game.

Chomp

Sorry, after reading your reply I am even more concerned about your plans than before.

But first, how much did you lose in Jan/Feb? You say $2,000 above, but in the OP you posted:

Month Win/Loss Since Table Hours Real Hours BB / hr $ / hr
Jan '06 $ -28.57 2006-01-03 215.2 87.3 -3.8 $ -0.33
Feb '06 $ -113.32 2006-02-04 189.7 76.7 1.7 $ -1.48

That's down c. $141. Am I missing something here? Was it $2,000 in 2 months or $141?


But here's the real problem. You seem to genuinely believe that you have identified and resolved the reasons you were losing.

I'm sorry, but it is not that simple and it is not something that is fixed after a few weeks reading internet articles and evaluating PT.

Players struggle to control the same 3 or 4 problems in their game for years.

The problems you identified are no doubt still in your game. They are very common problems many players have. Knowing your weaknesses is entirely different to fixing them.

...............

BTW, have a look at the current thread "Party 400NL - What would you do?". Would you have raised the $25 bet in the spirit of your new-found guts? Because if you would, then you need to just take a step back.

ChipLdr

sorry what i meant to say was i was up $1500 and lost $2000 in the space during this period to finish at a low of around -$500.Thats the most i've been down in poker. I ended up finishing the two months with c -$141 as u said.

Its hard to explain to others why i feel i can take on this challenge. I do by no means think i'm unbeatable nor do i think that every session will be a profitbale one but by minimising my losses it will significantly help. I am playing much better poker and this venture will be the most challenging and hopefully rewarding that i have ever faced.

Remember i have paid over $1500 in rake with no rakeback deal during the last 5 months. I will of course get one for the Summer.

jbravado

Intresting thread-I think Chomp has made some good points all worth considering.Why not go for it though...you seem to really love the game and the risk factor is not huge.
It would be TOTALLY diffrent for someone to quit a career in the attempt to go pro.What are you going to do if you lose the bankroll within a month for example?Is that the end of your plans?I personally know people who have borrowed heavily to "win back" poker losses and this is one area where the risk is far more than just monetary.Once you maintain a somewhat balanced lifestyle im sure you will be fine.
Look at this as a summer job-if it goes well brilliant if not move on to something new.You live you learn.
I hope this goes well for you.

FastMachine

If it's any enouragement ChipLdr I started playing full time with a 1K bankroll at .25/.50 after playing for about 4 or 5 months. You don't have to be playing for years at certain stakes before you go pro. The only thing that matters is 'are you a winning player'.
I got some of the same negative reactions you're getting now. Yes, it's possible that it mightn't work out, but it's also possible that it might. You're young anyway, you've nothing to loose if you take a year out to try it.

ChipLdr

I will not and refuse to put good money after bad. If the $3000 goes in the first month then it was an expensive lesson but i am approaching this with a lot of thought and consideration.

As most of you have said,I'm young with no ties so its not an extremely difficult decision at this current point in my life.This doesnt mean that i haven't thought this through. Losing the $3000 will hurt a bit but will not be the end of the world.

I see "suits" on the train and no offence but that scares me more than playing poker. I dont wanna be another 9-5 just yet!!! I'm not scred of responsibility or anything but I wanna be the one who decides what i wanna do,not what the norm is.

I'm prepared for the worst but in no way will i approach this venture with a negative view. I really expected heavy criticism from you all but what i'm getting is very constructive advice which i greatly appreciate.

I think Chomp has made some excellent pts which i will take on board and i thank you sincerely for taking time out to post such an interesting wide range of scenarios and events that might affect my game.

Its gonna be the hardest summer job of my life but hopefully the most enjoyable.

Goodluck2me

best of luck ChpLdr this has been a very uselful thread...