attn corkrob

because_I_can

Hi, i've been reading your posts and it seems like you know a ggod deal but you dont ever finsih your posts or give the full 100% helpful info.
now you said repeatedly to me in the clean thread that ols are useless for athletes and im adamant that without the powerclean id not have seen anything near the results that ive gotten over the last few months. Ive tried umpteen other ways of training and got nada compared to current method. which is a simple 5x5 with the big 3 - pc, squat and bench.
So what id like is if you could back up your post that ols are crap for athletes and put in another program right here. maybe you could do the same for that bench press pecs thread?
Or not if you dont want to but please stop going around saying you are all picking on me

yomchi

OL's are useless? That should be interesting.... *holds breath*

t-ha

Em., sorry about this slight hijack because_I_can, but the other thread got locked before I could reply - I can move this to it's own thread if you want, and @JAK, sorry if this seems cheeky - it's not intended that way.

Corkrob, thanks for writing out that last reply in the lower pecs thread. I think I understand what you're saying alot better now. Also, it turns out we probably actually agree more than maybe we thought. If you read my original post to the OP in the other thread, you'll see that I actually recommended a single joint exercise (which I don't have a name for as I've never seen anyone else do it - but I explained it as best I could) largely because it takes the pectorals right to the point of peak contraction, and I think it can work very well as a supplementary movement to other chest work. However, I was under the impression that you were recommending these types of exercises as permanent replacements for pressing exercises, which I could never agree with, for reasons I'll explain in a minute.

I have a couple of things I'd like to bounce off of you about your research first. Firstly, AFAIK it's practically impossible, in any movement, to completely isolate a muscle - even in a single joint movement. Do you think that there is any concern that using the machine fly as your reference exercise would bias your results in favour of that exercise? Also, how did you determine the loading parameters for the different movements, given that the bench press activates more of the larger muscle groups and therefore requires a greater load to place the same amount of tension on the pectorals? If you published a paper or anything on this study maybe it would just be easier if you could just PM me the reference for it and I'll read it myself.

Anyway, I'm not sure if you intend coming back to read this, but here's a brief explanation of where I'm coming from on this issue [re:not wanting to ditch pressing movements from chest routines].
1]I have not tried every exercise machine on the planet, but many of those which I have used I have found awkward to use, and have not liked the forced path of motion on them. When I used to use them (as instructed by gym instructors - whatever that may mean to you) I would develop minor pains and aches, particularly around joints. I have had no such problems with doing free weights where I'm in control of the POM.
2]To work out your entire body properly using totally isolated exercises takes alot of time, alot of exercises, and alot of thinking (to make sure your balancing out the amount of training your doing on all muscles, especially around joints such as knees and shoulders). Compound movements based on natural movements can provide much of your body with some training load in a small amount of time with only a few movements.
3]There's always people using the machines, and frequently the full stack isn't heavy enough for 'heavy' sets (OK, that might seem like a stupid complaint but it's a practical limitation that free weights can generally overcome).
4]Muscular development is important, but neuromuscular development is as/more important to many people. Major compound movements can be used to enforce positive/good neural patterns. Single joint and isolated work rarely achieves this.
5]Athletic performance, in my own experience at least & many others as far as I can tell, seems to improve better with compound free weighted lifts and olympic lifts and so on, than with isolated machine work (I know you seem to disagree with this so I'm interested to see what you say here).

Just to counter my own arguments there a bit, I do use isolated movements as well. In fact I think that the current modern idea in training - that everything we've done for the last few decades (body part splits/isolation exercises/machines instead of free weights) is wrong and that everyone should do heavy compound exercises all the time - is not correct, and isolated movements have a definite place in routines. For example, the tendancy of the human body to compensate for weaknesses by altering the movement subtly, generally has to be addressed through isolated work to bring up the lagging muscle groups. Also, as you said, many compound exercises do not bring muscles through their full ROM so you may miss out on the peak stretch or peak contraction positions. However, I generally use these exercises as peri-fatiguing type exercises (peri the main compound exercise, that is). Taking on board your point about the fan shape of the pectoral muscles, what would be your opinion on, as an example of a practical application of this point, someone pre-fatigueing their pecs in the peak contraction position or with a small ROM around the peak contraction position before doing a bench pressing set?

Anyway, maybe you'll read this and maybe you won't. Don't pick me up wrong though, I don't consider myself an expert, and am pretty sure that nobody here would have any reservations about having a debate with me over anything, or questioning opinions I might put forward. I just don't believe that anyone currently has all the answers, and I'm hesitant to just agree to things with discussing them first. I also put alot of faith in my own 'under the bar' experience - trying and abandoning/keeping various training protocols, as I feel that theories emerge all the time while quantification/practical validation of those theories tends to lag. Now that I feel I have a better idea where you're coming from, that is where I am coming from.

t-ha

corkrob

edited for being too worthwhile to post on this board

because_I_can

Thanks rob.
Im no professor of sport. in fact i know very little apart from what has worked for me. But i reckon if it can work for me then it "could" for anyone. i was always the slow fat kid even til 21. Now at 23 im at sub 4s for 30m and clean ~100kg at 80kg BW. Nothing special but for me its beyond dreams considering how i've never been good at sport.

So why 5x5? Well because it worked for so many people. Its simple and non time consuming. I've found when i over complicate things before i've usually failed. I totally agree with the less is more attitude. I think that program epitomises it. Plus its worked wonders for me and im miles away from plateauing

I might well take you up on that offer. i'll pm you.
Thanks