Live cash games. Is this allowed or frowned upon

BrokenArrows

I was playing in my first live cash game last wednesday in the 4Aces Galway.

€1/€3 PotLimit Holdem

I joined the table with 70 and quickly made this into 400.

This is a massive ammount of money for me and i really didnt want to be going home having lost it all so after a while i left with just over 355.

On the way home i thought "could i have cashed out and rejoined the table with say 100".

Even if i was allowed i think everyone at the table would be annoyed at the fact that ive pocketed their money and they dont have a chance to get it back.

So what do ye think? Could i/Should i leave and come back with a smaller ammount.

Mr. Flibble

It is not allowed almost everywhere. You may have to wait a cerain period, an hour maybe, before returning to play at the table. I think it is 20 minutes on some online sites.


I have a related question. At many card rooms they have a system where players get moved from the outer tables towards table 1. Are you allowed to pocket chips when moving to a new table?

jtsuited

you have to come back with the same amount you left with.

NickyOD

Nope. Anyone could take chips off the table at the end of every hand in order to protect their winnings.

I'm also amazed you were aloud to buy in for as little as 70 in a 1-3 game. The minimum on the 1-2 game at the gold club is 100.

BrokenArrows

the minimum buyin is €50 and i had 70 in my pocket so i put that down.

I suppose ill just ask the dealer the next time im playing.

fade2black

I'm amazed at the first two replies to this question. This is not the mafia people...Of course you can cash out 300 and come back with 100. If you want to play with the attitude of letting people win their money back then you shouldn't be playing poker. This is crap....the kind of crap that's best left to home games. People who play poker know what they're getting themselves in for. if I got abused for not giving people a chance to win their money back then they and that club would never see me again.

Mr. Flibble

BrokenArrows wrote:

I suppose ill just ask the dealer the next time im playing.

Huh? He will say the same as Nick, JTs and I - you are not allowed do it.

Mr. Flibble

fade2black wrote:

I'm amazed at the first two replies to this question. This is not the mafia people...Of course you can cash out 300 and come back with 100. If you want to play with the attitude of letting people win their money back then you shouldn't be playing poker. This is crap....the kind of crap that's best left to home games. People who play poker know what they're getting themselves in for. if I got abused for not giving people a chance to win their money back then they and that club would never see me again.

I believe you misunderstand what Nicky said. He too is saying you cannot take chips off the table or else you 'could take chips off the table at the end of every hand in order to protect their winnings', which is not allowed.

If you try to take chips off the table in the Fitz/Sporting Emporium/Merrion or most non mafia run card clubs you will be told it is not allowed.

fade2black

Mr. Flibble wrote:

I believe you misunderstand what Nicky said. He too is saying you cannot take chips off the table or else you 'could take chips off the table at the end of every hand in order to protect their winnings', which is not allowed.

If you try to take chips off the table in the Fitz/Sporting Emporium/Merrion or most non mafia run card clubs you will be told it is not allowed.

Where did I mention Nicky's reply?

fade2black

Actually...i see what you're saying now....Apologies.

This is madness.

DeVore

In the Fitz it´s an hour cooldown before you can reenter a game with a lesser amount then you left with and I for one entirely agree with it. You can leave with my money whenever you like but if you are going to continue to play that night you should play with cash you´ve won.

This is standard casino rules almost everywhere I´ve ever played. In the US when you are even moved table, the dealer will often count your chips, give you a docket and when you sit down again the new dealer will check you havent pocketed anyway. This is in a cash game!

If someone feels they have to protect that money then they arent much of a player anyway imho.

DeV.

jtsuited

does anyone know if when you're moving table in the fitz, can you bin chips then?

DeVore

You arent supposed to. If you are caught there would be trouble but I guess you could do it. I still stand by my assertion that if you feel the need to do that, you shouldnt be sitting at the table.

DeV

Rnger

In the fitz you cant pocket chips moving tables. Its all the one game you see

jtsuited

completely agree with you dev, but I've yet to see any sort of enforcement of this rule.

ollyk1

fade2black wrote:

I'm amazed at the first two replies to this question. This is not the mafia people...Of course you can cash out 300 and come back with 100. If you want to play with the attitude of letting people win their money back then you shouldn't be playing poker. This is crap....the kind of crap that's best left to home games. People who play poker know what they're getting themselves in for. if I got abused for not giving people a chance to win their money back then they and that club would never see me again.

Nobody said you couldn't leave the table f2b with your winnings. You don't have to play on to give people a chance to win their money back. This is what the OP did and nobody gave him any stick for that. What you can't do is scoop a pot and then put the cash in your pocket and play on with your original buy in at the table. As has been stated its a rule almost everywhere poker is played.

On the related note of wanting to do this if you are up a few buyins in a cash game and you are scared of losing those winnings then you obviously are playing above your BR (this was already obvious once the OP stated he bought in very short for €70) and you shouldn't have sat down at a cash table with that level of buyin. Thats just general good advice to the original poster which he is 100% free to ignore.

fade2black

I'll reply now without the benefit of ten pints.

I suppose the cooling off idea is probably the best one, I'd imagine that it would be hard to stomach losing a tidy sum of money and watch the guy cash it in and sit back down with the initial buy in.

Forgive my initial reaction...I'm obviously just a big fan of quitting while you're ahead.

DeVore

Don´t get me wrong either, I have no problem with someone leaving when they are up. Personally íf I do feel like its time to leave (maybe at a tough table or I am tired etc), then I´ll wait a round for politeness and then skidaddle. I left a game recently that I had sat into with 150 and left with over 800 after 3 hours (two of which had been a grind and one hour had been pure joy as the deck battered me!).

I left because it was 1am and I wanted to leave, it wasnt after a big win or anything though I had been running over the table and would gladly have stayed if I hadn´t been flying out at 9am the next day! It wasnt a bunch of guys I recognised in the Fitz, they were newish (though I havent been there as often as usual lately!) and I got the reaction of "you arent leaving with all the money are you?". That was the first time I´d ever heard that in the Fitz and I just told them "yeah, thats the general idea of the game"! Don´t ever feel bad about leaving with the dosh!

I have been checked in the Fitz a few times to ensure I brought my stack with me and you might be surprised how much is observed by Mr Ivory et al.

DeV.

5starpool

DeVore wrote:

In the US when you are even moved table, the dealer will often count your chips, give you a docket and when you sit down again the new dealer will check you havent pocketed anyway. This is in a cash game!

They did this in the Fitz for all of about 2 weeks a year or so ago with postits. You had to give it to the dealer on the other table when you got there.

Didn't last though for whatever reason.

Just to clarify as well (which may not need clarifying) - You can pocket chips if you move to a different game type i.e. Hold'em to Omaha etc, but not between feeder games and higher up games in the same game.

HauleyBear

On a semi-related note.....
Is the passing of chips between players allowed between hands....
Example: player A busts out, player B then stakes him from his own stack of chips...

Mr. Flibble

Technically no, but people may let it slide.

5starpool

It is not allowed in the Fitz anyhow. Exceptions are when someone loses a big pot, occasionally the winning player might give them some chips from the pot as a gesture, especially if there was an outdraw on the river. I have seen people pass as much as 50 quid in this way. Usually between people that know each other fairly well, and this is let slide.

fade2black

5starpool wrote:

It is not allowed in the Fitz anyhow. Exceptions are when someone loses a big pot, occasionally the winning player might give them some chips from the pot as a gesture, especially if there was an outdraw on the river. I have seen people pass as much as 50 quid in this way. Usually between people that know each other fairly well, and this is let slide.

Now this is something I've never seen. I can't imagine the loser would allow it, there is pride involved afterall, and it would be viewed as poor ettiquete in some places to offer some chips to the losing player. We know what we're getting ourselves into when we take our seats at the round table.

bohsman

fade2black wrote:

Now this is something I've never seen. I can't imagine the loser would allow it, there is pride involved afterall, and it would be viewed as poor ettiquete in some places to offer some chips to the losing player. We know what we're getting ourselves into when we take our seats at the round table.

It happens fairly regularly in the Fitz, dont see what pride has to do with it tbh. Its an acceptance by the winner that he didnt deserve to win the pot.

fade2black

Poker is poker, if someone beats me with a runner runner, I'll sigh and groan and kick a cat outside, but I won't accept any pity money off him.

RoundTower

fade2black wrote:

Now this is something I've never seen. I can't imagine the loser would allow it, there is pride involved afterall, and it would be viewed as poor ettiquete in some places to offer some chips to the losing player. We know what we're getting ourselves into when we take our seats at the round table.

You will probably see this once a night on average if you play in the Fitz.

fade2black

I've only been there a couple of times. It's fairly interesting to be honest, I'm only giving my opinion by the way (proving a very unpopular tactic of late)...I suppose once it happens once the stigma of it goes a bit and it becomes somewhat of a regular occurance. I've never seen it happen down my direction though.

DeVore

On a semi-related note.....
Is the passing of chips between players allowed between hands....
Example: player A busts out, player B then stakes him from his own stack of chips...

I think everyone else has misread your post.

Player A is busted out by Player B who takes the pot. Player C then tries to restake player A from his stack.

Is that your question?

In that case, no, I´d never allow it as its effectively chip passing. Player C can take money out of his pocket and give it to Player A but cannot pass him chips that are on the table already.
Theres a scene in Rounders that typifies this situation.

I dont think its at all common for a player to simply pick up 100 chips from his stack and pass them to a player who is broke, however if a big pot was won with a bad beat I guess you might see the winner throw accross 100 or whatever.

DeV.

bohsman

DeVore wrote:

I think everyone else has misread your post.


DeV.

Actually his question was answered by two people before the thread changed to this.

Mr. Flibble

DeVore wrote:

In that case, no, I´d never allow it as its effectively chip passing. Player C can take money out of his pocket and give it to Player A but cannot pass him chips that are on the table already.
Theres a scene in Rounders that typifies this situation.

This occured in GSN's High Stakes Poker. Buss borrowed 100k from Negraneau's stack - Negraneau did have everybody at the table covered 5 fold tho so it didn't effect the game much.

MadsL

This occured in GSN's High Stakes Poker. Buss borrowed 100k from Negraneau's stack - Negraneau did have everybody at the table covered 5 fold tho so it didn't effect the game much

I wondered at that too...

Incidentally, the 'wrongness' of taking chips off the table is highlighted in another episode - Johnny Chan playfully suggests another player is 'going south' (taking chips off the table) when he goes for a smoke and there is holy war breaking out...

OT: Anyone ever offered to or seen a board being 'run twice' in Ireland?

Mr. Flibble

MadsL wrote:

I wondered at that too...

Incidentally, the 'wrongness' of taking chips off the table is highlighted in another episode - Johnny Chan playfully suggests another player is 'going south' (taking chips off the table) when he goes for a smoke and there is holy war breaking out...

OT: Anyone ever offered to or seen a board being 'run twice' in Ireland?

Yeah, Deebe and small man syndrom was very funny.

I hadn't seen running it twice before in a casino. We do it in our hoem games now. Want to try that insurance thing sometime too - just for poker completeness.

Goodluck2me

how does running it twice work?is it for half the stack or so? also how does insurance work?

Mr. Flibble

goodluck2me wrote:

how does running it twice work?is it for half the stack or so? also how does insurance work?

Yes, split the pot in two and run two seperate hands for each pot - so if u are all at the flop you do a turn and river for one half of the pot and another turn and river for the other half.

Insurance basically is ending the hand and splitting it in proportion to how good your hand is.

Say two players were all in preflop with AA and KK. The AA player has 80% equity because he has 80% chance of winning but may be afraid of getting out drawn so will offer to take 70% or the pot and give 30% to KK regardless of the flop turn and river.

cardshark202

Mr. Flibble wrote:

Say two players were all in preflop with AA and KK. The AA player has 80% equity because he has 80% chance of winning but may be afraid of getting out drawn so will offer to take 70% or the pot and give 30% to KK regardless of the flop turn and river.

Yes but thats retarded

DeVore

cardshark202 wrote:

Yes but thats retarted

tarted again?? I dont follow

Ok, more seriously, yeah I agree its dumb to do this by the maths, you are dropping equity for no clear reason. well actually you DO get something for your money I guess, you avoid variance but its a very costly way to do it and would indicate that the player is "scared money".

But I´ve often wondered about this kind of maths. Obviously by taking insurance like this you drop 10% over time.
However we all agree (or at least I think we do!) that towards the end of your stack in a tournament, your tournament "life" should be considered and that distorts the odds a bit. ie: calls you would make in a cash game (because its one life-long game) you wouldnt make in a tournament if you are small to medium stack.

So, is there a point where the amount of money in the pot would cause so much contortion in your bank account that you WOULD take this insurance. I have to say, as much as I know the maths I would take this insurance if say, 80% of my life earnings (about 3.50 if you are wondering!) was in the pot. For similar reasons to the tournament stack logic, I don´t want to be knocked out of life.
Is there anyone out there who would say "nope, I´d always play the odds".

DeV.

Mr. Flibble

DeVore wrote:

However we all agree (or at least I think we do!) that towards the end of your stack in a tournament, your tournament "life" should be considered and that distorts the odds a bit. ie: calls you would make in a cash game (because its one life-long game) you wouldnt make in a tournament if you are small to medium stack.

DeV.

Running twice or insurance wouldn't be allowed in a tournament as having somone knocked out benifits the other players.

cardshark202 wrote:

Yes but thats retarted

Hellmuth took 80% of a pot which he had 90% equity in (to confirm your point ) during that High Stakes Series. It is retarded if you have a large bankroll in relation to the pot, but if loosing the pot would devistate your roll/life then it has some merit. Yeah, you sholdn't play out of your bankroll but stranger things have happened in the world of poker.

NickyOD

jtsuited wrote:

completely agree with you dev, but I've yet to see any sort of enforcement of this rule.

Actually I have seen it enforced and I'm not even in the Fitz very often. Most of the experienced dealers are very observant and know what and who to watch out for. If someone is is caught they are usually warned away from the table which is probably why its not seen very often by the players.

jtsuited

that would explain it

अधिनायक

NickyOD wrote:

Nope. Anyone could take chips off the table at the end of every hand in order to protect their winnings.

This may be a dumb question but what is the difference between taking chips off the table and pushing some chips to one side and just not playing with them?

cardshark202

Mr. Flibble wrote:

Running twice or insurance wouldn't be allowed in a tournament as having somone knocked out benifits the other players.


Hellmuth took 80% of a pot which he had 90% equity in (to confirm your point ) during that High Stakes Series. It is retarded if you have a large bankroll in relation to the pot, but if loosing the pot would devistate your roll/life then it has some merit. Yeah, you sholdn't play out of your bankroll but stranger things have happened in the world of poker.

If I was down to my last dollar/euro and someone offered me 80% when i had 90% equity I'd tell them to fúck off in a nice way.

Mr. Flibble

अधिनाय&#2325 wrote:

This may be a dumb question but what is the difference between taking chips off the table and pushing some chips to one side and just not playing with them?

If you are raised all in you have to put all your chips on the table into the pot if you wish to continue with the hand, if they are in your pocket they can't be played.

Mr. Flibble

cardshark202 wrote:

If I was down to my last dollar/euro and someone offered me 80% when i had 90% equity I'd tell them to fúck off in a nice way.

If I had an unbelievable run of cards and managed to get up to 20k in one wild night in the Fitz and decided to leave because I couldn't stand to lose that much, but looked down at two Aces as I was getting chips together and managed to get all in PF vs some high roller with KK I would jump at the chance to offer him 25% of the pot and go home a rich man, instead of going home after loosing 20k 1 time in 5. But I'm not much of a gambler.

Would you put all you own on a coinflip if you were getting 5:4 odds?

jtsuited

depends how much you own

cardshark202

Mr. Flibble wrote:

Would you put all you own on a coinflip if you were getting 5:4 odds?

Yeah. If I lose I can beg borrow and steal and maybe even work til I get my roll back.

ecksor

Mr. Flibble wrote:

If I had an unbelievable run of cards and managed to get up to 20k in one wild night in the Fitz and decided to leave because I couldn't stand to lose that much, but looked down at two Aces as I was getting chips together and managed to get all in PF vs some high roller with KK I would jump at the chance to offer him 25% of the pot and go home a rich man, instead of going home after loosing 20k 1 time in 5. But I'm not much of a gambler.

This sounds like smart gambling to me. If the winnings give you the bankroll to comfortably play at a higher level then this is a clear decision and long term is +EV if you can beat the bigger game. The similar argument that often comes up is dealmaking in tournaments. If I'm playing a freezeout amongst friends for a few quid then I'm not bothered but if I luckboxex my way to a WPT final table then I'd definitely give up equity to lock up more money. Most situations are obviously not so clear cut either way. ISTR that Malmuth's "gambling theory ..." book has a fair bit of discussion about this.

Mr. Flibble

cardshark202 wrote:

Yeah. If I lose I can beg borrow and steal and maybe even work til I get my roll back.

I don't mean roll, I mean everything.
If you still answer yes then fair enough, but your life's worth must not be worth very much to you (no offence) because if you took this oppertunity a few times you would end up with nothing sooner or later.

cardshark202

Mr. Flibble wrote:

I don't mean roll, I mean everything.
If you still answer yes then fair enough, but your life's worth must not be worth very much to you (no offence) because if you took this oppertunity a few times you would end up with nothing sooner or later.

The whole point of taking this proposition is that you only need to take it once or twice to then not have to take it again.

Mr. Flibble

cardshark202 wrote:

The whole point of taking this proposition is that you only need to take it once or twice to then not have to take it again.

Why take it once and not twice or thrice, other than it isn't a great idea that shouldn't be done at all?

NickyOD

अधिनाय&#2325 wrote:

This may be a dumb question but what is the difference between taking chips off the table and pushing some chips to one side and just not playing with them?

Yes its a dumb question.

अधिनायक

Mr. Flibble wrote:

If you are raised all in you have to put all your chips on the table into the pot if you wish to continue with the hand, if they are in your pocket they can't be played.

How big an advantage is this? You get an opportunity to make a smaller bet for a smaller return in the case where you are outbid, however you have the lost the opportunity to win the full pot. You have also lost the chance to intimidate other players with the size of your stack.