We only have ourselves to blame...

jetsonx

Do you find it funny that people who complain about the price of living
in Ireland are the exact same people who will demand a wage increase?
(wage increases being a root cause of inflation)

melekalikimaka

The cause of inflation is too much money chasing too few goods. If everybody had 5 times as much money but the amount of goods and services produced remained the same, prices would naturally rise by a factor of 5. So the answer to avoiding inflation is simply to avoid printing too much money.

zuma

This is the same as:

Which came first the chicken or the egg!

Its just an attempt at stabilisation...following the trend...but due to a time lag...it will never happen.
Its like an under damped system!

Sam Vimes

zuma wrote:

This is the same as:

Which came first the chicken or the egg!

i never understood the problem there. quite clearly the egg came first. chickens evolved from other egg laying birds. the only alternative is that a fully grown chicken materialised on the planet

Oriel

Commander Vimes wrote:

quite clearly the egg came first.

Then what gave birth to the egg?
I think the chicken came first, then the egg-birth developed later as a better way of doing things.

Off topic, but hey....

S.

FillSpectre

zuma wrote:

This is the same as:

Which came first the chicken or the egg!

Not at all cause and effect is what casues higher prices. As stated high employment and low supply made prices rise, demand for higher wages to deal with higher prices then caused prices to rise further and now we have more demands for higher wages to deal with the higher prices again. As so many have money and jobs they expect that they can get the same goods as others. Even though standards have increased and comparative wealth has changed people aren't happy.

For example a teacher,nurse and Garda were good jobs and better than the average wage. Now more people are employed teacher type jobs are now closer to the average. So now a teacher can't buy as big a house as they could in the past so people say it is a down turn in the standard of living when in fact more people have had their standard improved.

Prices are more expensive here than other places but all things considered it is not as bad as the media would have you believe. Ireland has always been more expensive for luxury goods all my life. I think many things are cheaper beer is certainly cheaper as you can get named beer for €1 a bottle when you could never get £1 named brand beer before.

People aren't very picky about how much they pay for things but complain about prices a lot which is the strangest thing here.

FillSpectre

sinecurea wrote:

Then what gave birth to the egg?
I think the chicken came first, then the egg-birth developed later as a better way of doing things.

A reptile layed the egg as they evolved from them. It was at one point a theoretical debate now it is not as we know.

Eoin

FillSpectre wrote:

A reptile layed the egg as they evolved from them. It was at one point a theoretical debate now it is not as we know.

So, did the reptile or the egg come first?

Anyway, OT:

jetsonx wrote:

Do you find it funny that people who complain about the price of living
in Ireland are the exact same people who will demand a wage increase?
(wage increases being a root cause of inflation)

Not really, I would find it funny if you were talking about the super-rich complaining about the cost of living over here, but why should average Joe effectively take a pay cut in order to potentially decrease inflation?

TempestSabre

I think you be careful when talking about earning more money with having a higher standard of living. Its not just about the cost of beer! For many its a case of needing to work more hours to pay for rent/mortgage, food, light, heat, electricity, clothing creche etc. Thus having less leisure time than ever before. We have massive traffic congestion, terrible health services and high levels of debt.

I would say its not as nice a place to live as it use to be.

jetsonx

jetsonx wrote:

Do you find it funny that people who complain about the price of living
in Ireland are the exact same people who will demand a wage increase?
(wage increases being a root cause of inflation)

Yes you are hitting the nail on the head.

To be honest a minimum wage is counter productive in our current environment.

Especially one as high as ours.

WhiteWashMan

jetsonx wrote:

Do you find it funny that people who complain about the price of living
in Ireland are the exact same people who will demand a wage increase?
(wage increases being a root cause of inflation)

now i vaguley recall my eaving cert economics, but i think its a bit more complicated than that.

otherwise there are a lot of overpaid people out there....

as for them being the same people who demand a wage increase, id be interested to see the poll that asked the question

'are you aware that if you are not paid enough and yet are demaning a wage increase, you are the cause of inflation?'

this is obviously where you got your info, right?

FillSpectre

TempestSabre wrote:

I think you be careful when talking about earning more money with having a higher standard of living. Its not just about the cost of beer! For many its a case of needing to work more hours to pay for rent/mortgage, food, light, heat, electricity, clothing creche etc. Thus having less leisure time than ever before. We have massive traffic congestion, terrible health services and high levels of debt.

I would say its not as nice a place to live as it use to be.

I used beer as an easy example. Clothes are aslso cheaper as is furniture. General selection is a lot better also. Many people buy beyond their means and desire beyond them too as natural behaviour. THe standard of living has gone up in ireland.,t hat does not mean poverty and relative poverty go away. My mother was born in a tenanament I wasn't and neiither will my children.

I hear people say things like working more hours for mortgage and rent etc... I have never met somebody in these situations maybe I just am out of touch with all these people but nobody I know knows them either. Along with the people forced out of Dublin stories etc... Not one person who has these problems I hear in the media. Or health service isn't that bad or our traffic. It isn't the same as it was that is about all. Cherry picking examples that make Ireland look bad sells papers and people buy into it. What is the truth.

I am not saying it is not true for all just that it is grossly exagerated and those who don't know believe the papers. One thing I am sure of is don't trust the media to tell you the truth trust them to sell you a story that interests you or scares you. It easier to scare people.:D

Eoin

FillSpectre wrote:

Along with the people forced out of Dublin stories etc... Not one person who has these problems I hear in the media.

Are you saying that you don't believe that a lot of people who were brought up in Dublin can't afford to live in Dublin?

mikedragon32

I would imagine wage increases form only a fraction of the current infationary increases.

Take the rising fuel costs, as one example. Crude oil prices go up -> Petrolium & power suppliers increase their charges to maintain their margins ->Transport/service providers/manufacturers/retailers increase their prices in turn to maintain their margins -> End consumer must somehow find extra money to meet the increase in cost of living so seeks pay rise.

Another factor is the fact that suppliers will always pitch their price at the highest a consumer is willing to pay. Once people accept that (seeing as beer was already mentioned) €5 for a pint is a fair price, the publicans can move to increase their prices to this level, irrespective of margins. Those of us who live in suburbia can attest to this. In Greystones, for example, a new pub has opened and is charging prices not to far off Dublin City prices. It's doing good business. Why? Well not because the place is spectacular (it's not even good IMHO), but because people are willing to pay. Soon the other pubs in the area will be able to increase their prices in line, because they know the market can take it.

We all know that the pay deals struck in "partnership" between Gov't, Employers and Unions in the last 10 years or so have been great for the economy as a whole, but to the detriment of the worker, they have never met or surpassed the inflation rates. To say then that wage increases are a root cause of inflation is to over simplify the matter. Inflation, remember, is the mean increase in the cost of items that contribute to the cost of living (to over-simplify). Therefore the things that increase inflation are the things which have increased in price beyond the current mean. If wage increases have never been above the current mean, they can't serve to increase it.

I'm not a student of economics (or anything else for that matter), but if something is below the average, doesn't it serve to bring the average down?

FillSpectre

eoin_s wrote:

Are you saying that you don't believe that a lot of people who were brought up in Dublin can't afford to live in Dublin?

No, I am saying they weren't forced out they made choices. As far as I can tell people go with what their money will buy not what they need. I believe people can buy in Dublin but they would prefer a larger house and a long commute than a house that suits their needs and a short commute. It's choice not a hardship forced upon them. I can only go with those I know and that is what they feel. My mother refers to friends outside Dublin as those forced out yet my friends say they decided to live there. They can't both be right and I'll go with those who made the decision:)

Eoin

FillSpectre wrote:

No, I am saying they weren't forced out they made choices. As far as I can tell people go with what their money will buy not what they need. I believe people can buy in Dublin but they would prefer a larger house and a long commute than a house that suits their needs and a short commute. It's choice not a hardship forced upon them. I can only go with those I know and that is what they feel. My mother refers to friends outside Dublin as those forced out yet my friends say they decided to live there. They can't both be right and I'll go with those who made the decision:)

Well, if you want to be black and white about it, then you are correct - a married couple with no children only need a one bed apartment.

The very cheapest house (funnily enough, a 1 bed apartment) in Dublin I could find on Daft was for €315,000. I know an awful lot of people - and couples - who couldn't afford that type of mortgage.

FillSpectre

eoin_s wrote:

Well, if you want to be black and white about it, then you are correct - a married couple with no children only need a one bed apartment.

It is not as simple as what they just need the point is they don't need a 3 bed house with front and back garden. It doesn't have to be an appartment. A single parent with one child doesn't have to have a three bed house either. It isn't black and white but many people can't seee past traditional housing.

eoin_s wrote:

The very cheapest house (funnily enough, a 1 bed apartment) in Dublin I could find on Daft was for €315,000. I know an awful lot of people - and couples - who couldn't afford that type of mortgage.

That is a rental website mostly and not a good guage of property prices. www.myhome.ie and search for a 1 bed place. There is cheaper and bigger avilable. If you can't afford to buy a house so what you don't have to own one and a portion of the pouplation who don't own seems to be dropping but it is still very high in Europe and I heard it is the highest. It makes sens as we become more like the world we come in line with standards.

dermo88

ronoc wrote:

Yes you are hitting the nail on the head.

To be honest a minimum wage is counter productive in our current environment.

Especially one as high as ours.

Sentiments like that are an utter disgrace. It is an utter shame that Ireland were the last or second last country in the European Union to introduce this. Frankly speaking, any employer that cannot afford to pay this can get out, because I've worked for a pittance when I was younger. I know what exploitation means.

If an unemployment problem does arise again, then the Government can lower the minimum wage, and it can cut some of its own budget to help compensate.

I would rather a high cost of living, knowing that while the minimum wage is not perfect, its an awful lot better than what passed before. Maybe you want to massage your ego watching those on 3 Euro an hour, while you are on 8 Euro.

I don't mind paying higher prices in pubs and restaurants, in hairdressers and shops, with the consolation that I can afford it, but so can the people who are working there. They are being renumerated properly. I don't want to see people on apprenticeships getting between 40 and 80 quid a week in their hand after tax, because it was, quite frankly, a disgrace to any country that described itself as developed.

By and large I am somewhere to the right of Margaret Thatcher in terms of most economic policies, but when it comes to the minimum wage, I am distinctly left wing.

What do you want.....people choosing not to work because the dole pays more.

The most vibrant societies, and economies in the world are those that are open to outside influences. They serve to enrich the culture and country. Long term, they improve the quality of life of all.

Unless you want to go back to the pre European agricultural paradise with parasitical state protectionism, Haugheyism, Clerical rule, and a daft focus on the Northern problem that held our nation and the people in it back from achieving and succeeding. The only way to achieve was to take the boat out.

The people who are coming here want to succeed for the very same reasons we did. Give them a break. Welcome them.

Now, coming back to the issue of high housing costs. I've been saying this for a long time. It will end in tears. Its no use saying, "prices will always go up", because rest assured, the moment the jumpleads work on the German and french economies, the Irish property market will be well and truly screwed. Its happened in Holland, its happened in Japan, and it will happen in Ireland.

Too much of the Irish economy is leveraged on the property market. It will drop, and fall in both real and nominal terms over the next few years, starting from the outer Leinster counties first.

nesf

dermo88 wrote:

Too much of the Irish economy is leveraged on the property market. It will drop, and fall in both real and nominal terms over the next few years, starting from the outer Leinster counties first.

And where exactly are you pulling this from? Real and nominal? We're in quite an odd position atm, demand is actually set to be maintained for the next 5-10 years, so a nominal decrease is unlikely. A real decrease though could be on the cards, but not for a good few years yet.

I'm curious as to your logic though....

TempestSabre

FillSpectre wrote:

....I hear people say things like working more hours for mortgage and rent etc... I have never met somebody in these situations maybe I just am out of touch with all these people but nobody I know knows them either. Along with the people forced out of Dublin stories etc... Not one person who has these problems I hear in the media. Or health service isn't that bad or our traffic. It isn't the same as it was that is about all....

I can only agree with you (and the people you know) are very much out of touch with reality of modern irish life, in Dublin at least.

Neuro

jetsonx wrote:

Do you find it funny that people who complain about the price of living
in Ireland are the exact same people who will demand a wage increase?

What people fail to grasp is that most of them are both producers AND consumers - producers prefer higher wages, which lead to increased product prices, and consumers prefer lower product prices, which lead to decreased wages. These demands are mutually antagonistic!

jetsonx wrote:

(wage increases being a root cause of inflation)

Not necessarily - if wages increase in line with productivity, there'll be no increase in inflation.

FillSpectre

TempestSabre wrote:

I can only agree with you (and the people you know) are very much out of touch with reality of modern irish life, in Dublin at least.

Maybe you are only in touch with people in that situation and think the people who aren't in the situation don't exist. Me and my friends are in our early 30s from the Northside (Dublin) working class background. Our younger family memebers aren't in the situations descibed and either are we.

I don't know how we are so out of touch modern Irish life what age are all the people you know having such a hard time? I know nobody unemployed and forced to work in dire conditions except a guard and a nurse and they have some nice perks that off set them. I still think it is media hype. I have heard many stories of I can't afford to live in Dublin and then hear it is a single person trying to buy a 3 bed house so I don't think it matters. THe head line will read Dublin Teacher can't Afford House"

Stephen

I hope the arse falls out of the house market at some stage in the near future, it would be nice to afford somewhere to live without requiring a mortgage for 40+ years.

lazylad

Yeah well if people complain leave them complain. They dont know the cost of living in other countries. Why not next time you just tell the complaining person to move away? That wud be a great way to shut them up

Stephen

Stephen wrote:

I hope the arse falls out of the house market at some stage in the near future, it would be nice to afford somewhere to live without requiring a mortgage for 40+ years.

And if it did fall it would be a definite sign that the economy is taking a terrible turn for the worse. Alot of Irelands economy is tied to the construction industry, & services industry, and any damage to that would have serious reprecussions. Added to this many people have taken 100% mortgages which means that as interest rates rise and wages lower, the level of repossession by the banks will also rise, kicking alot of people into the street. Increasing the strain on social welfare, and forcing the increase in taxes across the board.

But then, if you have the money you can buy up a fair bit of cheap housing from the banks, and wait till the economy stabilises and resell.

TempestSabre

FillSpectre wrote:

....Along with the people forced out of Dublin stories etc... .... health service isn't that bad or our traffic. ...

From the Dail yesterday. Taoiseach Bertie Ahern

“It is a fact that this city can no longer continue to take the densities that are being forced on it, like the population and traffic pressures...“Without the Government responding to try to move people, we’re having day in and day out, people commuting enormous distances to this city.

So you reckon hes making it up then? Or the queues on the M50 stretching for miles don't exist? Or that the stories about people on trollies in Emergency rooms aren't true, or people waiting for operations aren't true? I'd quote some paper articles from this week, but you don't believe the press.

FillSpectre wrote:

Maybe you are only in touch with people in that situation and think the people who aren't in the situation don't exist. ...
I don't know how we are so out of touch modern Irish life what age are all the people you know having such a hard time? I know nobody unemployed and forced to work in dire conditions except a guard and a nurse and they have some nice perks that off set them. I still think it is media hype.....I have heard many stories of I can't afford to live in Dublin and then hear it is a single person trying to buy a 3 bed house so I don't think it matters. THe head line will read Dublin Teacher can't Afford House"

I never said there were people who aren't in that situation. That would be silly. I said there ARE people in that situation. I would suggest that 100%, and 40yr mortgages are a sign that people are struggling. Also the massive increases in the money spent on subsidised housing. Not to mention the increases in personal debt.

FillSpectre

TempestSabre wrote:

From the Dail yesterday. Taoiseach Bertie Ahern
“It is a fact that this city can no longer continue to take the densities that are being forced on it, like the population and traffic pressures...“Without the Government responding to try to move people, we’re having day in and day out, people commuting enormous distances to this city.
So you reckon hes making it up then? Or the queues on the M50 stretching for miles don't exist? Or that the stories about people on trollies in Emergency rooms aren't true, or people waiting for operations aren't true? I'd quote some paper articles from this week, but you don't believe the press.

He is a politcian I reckon he says what he thinks will have the biggest impact and helps something he wants to do. In this case he is trying to support decentralisation which many see as way to gain political power around the country. The "stories" in the media about how bad things are sells papers so the media aren't exactley great at giving the truth out either. By no means am I saying it is perfect or right. Information fed to the public via media and politicians is only partly true you need to seek out the information. For example

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054926638

What is the point of lying about a 16 year old? THe story is shocking enough yet it is exagerated. I don't beleive in media agenda as such but I beleive in lazy journalists very easily.

TempestSabre wrote:

I never said there were people who aren't in that situation. That would be silly. I said there ARE people in that situation. I would suggest that 100%, and 40yr mortgages are a sign that people are struggling. Also the massive increases in the money spent on subsidised housing. Not to mention the increases in personal debt.

I don't cliam nobody is in the situation but how many people do you know with 40 year mortgage, working overtime,100% mortgage and commuting 4 hours a day? Your example suggests there are loads of people doing this or similar yet I don't know anybody even close. 40 year mortages can be got but how many are 100% too? Do you know anybody commuting 4 hours who did so out of need the closest I know is somebody doing 3.5 hours to own a massive house where they plan to move their job to.
The massive amount of money spent on subsidised housing is what? Unlike the way they used to provide social housing I would guess it costs less. It should not be cosidered a negative because the government don't provide housing the way they did.

I would consider greed and desire the reason people are in debt and I don't blame the government if somebody goes overdrawn it is called personal debit for a reason. When I see a massive new car I think somebody would get in to debit for a deprciating asset not the government should help him out or personal debit is terrible.

THe point is yes I do believe it is possible that the case sudies and example in media are could be true but I am saying it is a very small section of the population if true. I do however see daily example of glutiny ,greed, selfishness and over spending. THat is collegues, friends and family but there are further signs in the public. I just think it is easier to believe what I see and can be quantified rather than the media and politicians. I don't know anybody and nobody I know knows anybody actually in the situations described yet in the media and politicians are constatnly going on about such people. I am very suspicious when so much time is focused on figmant issues and real ones aren't addressed. Hospitals ,roads etc do need work but they aren't 3rd world as we get told and we have some good things that other countries copy too. Cherry picking bad example will make you mislreable and do nothing except spread it.

Sam Vimes

sinecurea wrote:

Then what gave birth to the egg?

what gave birth to the egg was an aminal that was almost exactly the same as a chicken but with slight differences. two "almost chickens" had sex and a genetic mutation caused the first true chicken genome.

sinecurea wrote:

I think the chicken came first, then the egg-birth developed later as a better way of doing things.

chickens lay eggs. its in their genome. if it doesn't lay eggs, its not a chicken. it might look exactly like one, but its not

TempestSabre

So basically you believe nothing unless you personally or the people around you have experienced it. Theres no point in debating anything then. I've never been to the North Pole or know anyone whos been there so I guess it doesn't exist. I've only seen it in the media.

I have contact with a lot of very different people. People struggling and in those situations you don't believe exist, and also people who are doing so well they are practically in a different world.

ambro25

Rep + 1 @ Commander Vimes

@ OP - yes, you've only got yourselves to blame, period.

The property market in Dublin is not value for money, hasn't been for years. I'll not call it a bubble because we all know where this thread would end, but it is very artificial, not to say 'bellybuttonistic' : €500 to €600k for a 3-bed semi in a Dublin 'burb buys you an awful lot more real estate in much sunnier climates and where the cost of life is cheaper.

But, at the end of the day, getting on the property ladder (and climbing it) is always a personal choice (FillSpectre is right in that respect) - I for one, putting aside all other considerations (100% mortgages over 40 years, it wasn't so long ago that it was only 35, etc. - you get my drift), cannot for the life of me see the wisdom of trading up these days (unless forced by family reasons of course), since the capital appreciation of the asset sold -the previous house/apt- is lost in the purchase of the next one (which has appreciated in the same proportions, unless relocating way-the-f*ck out, hence hours' worth of commute etc.). Yet so many people are.

Personally, I'm never buying here no matter how long I end up staying in Ireland (unless the proverbial ass mentionned in thread earlier falls way-out and there becomes real value for money to be had again)... Whether you spend €2k pm on a mortgage in IE, or €1k in rent in IE and €1k on a mortgage in FR/ES/IT/wherever sunnier for something bigger with more land, is up to you (and don't you all thank me at once for not contributing to the property madness )

J.R.HARTLEY

if all the minimum wage workers never had it so good, why are poeple like hobbs and lee from Rte and even the politicians worried about the amount of debt people are in these days, also people can't afford pension plans either, people who think ireland is perfectly affordable should come out and work with the VdeP for a few weeks, might just open your eyes, there are bigger spheres of existance other than yours. and as for traffic being a worse problem than the Health System :rolleyes:

by the way sorry to not appreciate your oversimplification OP but we were assured by the head of the IIB bacnk on last nights news that the rise in interest rates had a large part to play in the current problems, plus what he says is an unexpalinabley uncompetitive basic living market, i.e. when the grocerys bill was scrapped basic amenites like food have actually gone up in price