We only have ourselves to blame...

jetsonx

Do you find it funny that people who complain about the price of living
in Ireland are the exact same people who will demand a wage increase?
(wage increases being a root cause of inflation)

melekalikimaka

The cause of inflation is too much money chasing too few goods. If everybody had 5 times as much money but the amount of goods and services produced remained the same, prices would naturally rise by a factor of 5. So the answer to avoiding inflation is simply to avoid printing too much money.

zuma

This is the same as:

Which came first the chicken or the egg!

Its just an attempt at stabilisation...following the trend...but due to a time lag...it will never happen.
Its like an under damped system!

Sam Vimes

zuma wrote:

This is the same as:

Which came first the chicken or the egg!

i never understood the problem there. quite clearly the egg came first. chickens evolved from other egg laying birds. the only alternative is that a fully grown chicken materialised on the planet

Oriel

Commander Vimes wrote:

quite clearly the egg came first.

Then what gave birth to the egg?
I think the chicken came first, then the egg-birth developed later as a better way of doing things.

Off topic, but hey....

S.

FillSpectre

zuma wrote:

This is the same as:

Which came first the chicken or the egg!

Not at all cause and effect is what casues higher prices. As stated high employment and low supply made prices rise, demand for higher wages to deal with higher prices then caused prices to rise further and now we have more demands for higher wages to deal with the higher prices again. As so many have money and jobs they expect that they can get the same goods as others. Even though standards have increased and comparative wealth has changed people aren't happy.

For example a teacher,nurse and Garda were good jobs and better than the average wage. Now more people are employed teacher type jobs are now closer to the average. So now a teacher can't buy as big a house as they could in the past so people say it is a down turn in the standard of living when in fact more people have had their standard improved.

Prices are more expensive here than other places but all things considered it is not as bad as the media would have you believe. Ireland has always been more expensive for luxury goods all my life. I think many things are cheaper beer is certainly cheaper as you can get named beer for €1 a bottle when you could never get £1 named brand beer before.

People aren't very picky about how much they pay for things but complain about prices a lot which is the strangest thing here.

FillSpectre

sinecurea wrote:

Then what gave birth to the egg?
I think the chicken came first, then the egg-birth developed later as a better way of doing things.

A reptile layed the egg as they evolved from them. It was at one point a theoretical debate now it is not as we know.

Eoin

FillSpectre wrote:

A reptile layed the egg as they evolved from them. It was at one point a theoretical debate now it is not as we know.

So, did the reptile or the egg come first?

Anyway, OT:

jetsonx wrote:

Do you find it funny that people who complain about the price of living
in Ireland are the exact same people who will demand a wage increase?
(wage increases being a root cause of inflation)

Not really, I would find it funny if you were talking about the super-rich complaining about the cost of living over here, but why should average Joe effectively take a pay cut in order to potentially decrease inflation?

TempestSabre

I think you be careful when talking about earning more money with having a higher standard of living. Its not just about the cost of beer! For many its a case of needing to work more hours to pay for rent/mortgage, food, light, heat, electricity, clothing creche etc. Thus having less leisure time than ever before. We have massive traffic congestion, terrible health services and high levels of debt.

I would say its not as nice a place to live as it use to be.

jetsonx

jetsonx wrote:

Do you find it funny that people who complain about the price of living
in Ireland are the exact same people who will demand a wage increase?
(wage increases being a root cause of inflation)

Yes you are hitting the nail on the head.

To be honest a minimum wage is counter productive in our current environment.

Especially one as high as ours.

WhiteWashMan

jetsonx wrote:

Do you find it funny that people who complain about the price of living
in Ireland are the exact same people who will demand a wage increase?
(wage increases being a root cause of inflation)

now i vaguley recall my eaving cert economics, but i think its a bit more complicated than that.

otherwise there are a lot of overpaid people out there....

as for them being the same people who demand a wage increase, id be interested to see the poll that asked the question

'are you aware that if you are not paid enough and yet are demaning a wage increase, you are the cause of inflation?'

this is obviously where you got your info, right?

FillSpectre

TempestSabre wrote:

I think you be careful when talking about earning more money with having a higher standard of living. Its not just about the cost of beer! For many its a case of needing to work more hours to pay for rent/mortgage, food, light, heat, electricity, clothing creche etc. Thus having less leisure time than ever before. We have massive traffic congestion, terrible health services and high levels of debt.

I would say its not as nice a place to live as it use to be.

I used beer as an easy example. Clothes are aslso cheaper as is furniture. General selection is a lot better also. Many people buy beyond their means and desire beyond them too as natural behaviour. THe standard of living has gone up in ireland.,t hat does not mean poverty and relative poverty go away. My mother was born in a tenanament I wasn't and neiither will my children.

I hear people say things like working more hours for mortgage and rent etc... I have never met somebody in these situations maybe I just am out of touch with all these people but nobody I know knows them either. Along with the people forced out of Dublin stories etc... Not one person who has these problems I hear in the media. Or health service isn't that bad or our traffic. It isn't the same as it was that is about all. Cherry picking examples that make Ireland look bad sells papers and people buy into it. What is the truth.

I am not saying it is not true for all just that it is grossly exagerated and those who don't know believe the papers. One thing I am sure of is don't trust the media to tell you the truth trust them to sell you a story that interests you or scares you. It easier to scare people.:D

Eoin

FillSpectre wrote:

Along with the people forced out of Dublin stories etc... Not one person who has these problems I hear in the media.

Are you saying that you don't believe that a lot of people who were brought up in Dublin can't afford to live in Dublin?

mikedragon32

I would imagine wage increases form only a fraction of the current infationary increases.

Take the rising fuel costs, as one example. Crude oil prices go up -> Petrolium & power suppliers increase their charges to maintain their margins ->Transport/service providers/manufacturers/retailers increase their prices in turn to maintain their margins -> End consumer must somehow find extra money to meet the increase in cost of living so seeks pay rise.

Another factor is the fact that suppliers will always pitch their price at the highest a consumer is willing to pay. Once people accept that (seeing as beer was already mentioned) €5 for a pint is a fair price, the publicans can move to increase their prices to this level, irrespective of margins. Those of us who live in suburbia can attest to this. In Greystones, for example, a new pub has opened and is charging prices not to far off Dublin City prices. It's doing good business. Why? Well not because the place is spectacular (it's not even good IMHO), but because people are willing to pay. Soon the other pubs in the area will be able to increase their prices in line, because they know the market can take it.

We all know that the pay deals struck in "partnership" between Gov't, Employers and Unions in the last 10 years or so have been great for the economy as a whole, but to the detriment of the worker, they have never met or surpassed the inflation rates. To say then that wage increases are a root cause of inflation is to over simplify the matter. Inflation, remember, is the mean increase in the cost of items that contribute to the cost of living (to over-simplify). Therefore the things that increase inflation are the things which have increased in price beyond the current mean. If wage increases have never been above the current mean, they can't serve to increase it.

I'm not a student of economics (or anything else for that matter), but if something is below the average, doesn't it serve to bring the average down?

FillSpectre

eoin_s wrote:

Are you saying that you don't believe that a lot of people who were brought up in Dublin can't afford to live in Dublin?

No, I am saying they weren't forced out they made choices. As far as I can tell people go with what their money will buy not what they need. I believe people can buy in Dublin but they would prefer a larger house and a long commute than a house that suits their needs and a short commute. It's choice not a hardship forced upon them. I can only go with those I know and that is what they feel. My mother refers to friends outside Dublin as those forced out yet my friends say they decided to live there. They can't both be right and I'll go with those who made the decision:)

Eoin

FillSpectre wrote:

No, I am saying they weren't forced out they made choices. As far as I can tell people go with what their money will buy not what they need. I believe people can buy in Dublin but they would prefer a larger house and a long commute than a house that suits their needs and a short commute. It's choice not a hardship forced upon them. I can only go with those I know and that is what they feel. My mother refers to friends outside Dublin as those forced out yet my friends say they decided to live there. They can't both be right and I'll go with those who made the decision:)

Well, if you want to be black and white about it, then you are correct - a married couple with no children only need a one bed apartment.

The very cheapest house (funnily enough, a 1 bed apartment) in Dublin I could find on Daft was for €315,000. I know an awful lot of people - and couples - who couldn't afford that type of mortgage.

FillSpectre

eoin_s wrote:

Well, if you want to be black and white about it, then you are correct - a married couple with no children only need a one bed apartment.

It is not as simple as what they just need the point is they don't need a 3 bed house with front and back garden. It doesn't have to be an appartment. A single parent with one child doesn't have to have a three bed house either. It isn't black and white but many people can't seee past traditional housing.

eoin_s wrote:

The very cheapest house (funnily enough, a 1 bed apartment) in Dublin I could find on Daft was for €315,000. I know an awful lot of people - and couples - who couldn't afford that type of mortgage.

That is a rental website mostly and not a good guage of property prices. www.myhome.ie and search for a 1 bed place. There is cheaper and bigger avilable. If you can't afford to buy a house so what you don't have to own one and a portion of the pouplation who don't own seems to be dropping but it is still very high in Europe and I heard it is the highest. It makes sens as we become more like the world we come in line with standards.

dermo88

ronoc wrote:

Yes you are hitting the nail on the head.

To be honest a minimum wage is counter productive in our current environment.

Especially one as high as ours.

Sentiments like that are an utter disgrace. It is an utter shame that Ireland were the last or second last country in the European Union to introduce this. Frankly speaking, any employer that cannot afford to pay this can get out, because I've worked for a pittance when I was younger. I know what exploitation means.

If an unemployment problem does arise again, then the Government can lower the minimum wage, and it can cut some of its own budget to help compensate.

I would rather a high cost of living, knowing that while the minimum wage is not perfect, its an awful lot better than what passed before. Maybe you want to massage your ego watching those on 3 Euro an hour, while you are on 8 Euro.

I don't mind paying higher prices in pubs and restaurants, in hairdressers and shops, with the consolation that I can afford it, but so can the people who are working there. They are being renumerated properly. I don't want to see people on apprenticeships getting between 40 and 80 quid a week in their hand after tax, because it was, quite frankly, a disgrace to any country that described itself as developed.

By and large I am somewhere to the right of Margaret Thatcher in terms of most economic policies, but when it comes to the minimum wage, I am distinctly left wing.

What do you want.....people choosing not to work because the dole pays more.

The most vibrant societies, and economies in the world are those that are open to outside influences. They serve to enrich the culture and country. Long term, they improve the quality of life of all.

Unless you want to go back to the pre European agricultural paradise with parasitical state protectionism, Haugheyism, Clerical rule, and a daft focus on the Northern problem that held our nation and the people in it back from achieving and succeeding. The only way to achieve was to take the boat out.

The people who are coming here want to succeed for the very same reasons we did. Give them a break. Welcome them.

Now, coming back to the issue of high housing costs. I've been saying this for a long time. It will end in tears. Its no use saying, "prices will always go up", because rest assured, the moment the jumpleads work on the German and french economies, the Irish property market will be well and truly screwed. Its happened in Holland, its happened in Japan, and it will happen in Ireland.

Too much of the Irish economy is leveraged on the property market. It will drop, and fall in both real and nominal terms over the next few years, starting from the outer Leinster counties first.

nesf

dermo88 wrote:

Too much of the Irish economy is leveraged on the property market. It will drop, and fall in both real and nominal terms over the next few years, starting from the outer Leinster counties first.

And where exactly are you pulling this from? Real and nominal? We're in quite an odd position atm, demand is actually set to be maintained for the next 5-10 years, so a nominal decrease is unlikely. A real decrease though could be on the cards, but not for a good few years yet.

I'm curious as to your logic though....

TempestSabre

FillSpectre wrote:

....I hear people say things like working more hours for mortgage and rent etc... I have never met somebody in these situations maybe I just am out of touch with all these people but nobody I know knows them either. Along with the people forced out of Dublin stories etc... Not one person who has these problems I hear in the media. Or health service isn't that bad or our traffic. It isn't the same as it was that is about all....

I can only agree with you (and the people you know) are very much out of touch with reality of modern irish life, in Dublin at least.

Neuro

jetsonx wrote:

Do you find it funny that people who complain about the price of living
in Ireland are the exact same people who will demand a wage increase?

What people fail to grasp is that most of them are both producers AND consumers - producers prefer higher wages, which lead to increased product prices, and consumers prefer lower product prices, which lead to decreased wages. These demands are mutually antagonistic!

jetsonx wrote:

(wage increases being a root cause of inflation)

Not necessarily - if wages increase in line with productivity, there'll be no increase in inflation.

FillSpectre

TempestSabre wrote:

I can only agree with you (and the people you know) are very much out of touch with reality of modern irish life, in Dublin at least.

Maybe you are only in touch with people in that situation and think the people who aren't in the situation don't exist. Me and my friends are in our early 30s from the Northside (Dublin) working class background. Our younger family memebers aren't in the situations descibed and either are we.

I don't know how we are so out of touch modern Irish life what age are all the people you know having such a hard time? I know nobody unemployed and forced to work in dire conditions except a guard and a nurse and they have some nice perks that off set them. I still think it is media hype. I have heard many stories of I can't afford to live in Dublin and then hear it is a single person trying to buy a 3 bed house so I don't think it matters. THe head line will read Dublin Teacher can't Afford House"

Stephen

I hope the arse falls out of the house market at some stage in the near future, it would be nice to afford somewhere to live without requiring a mortgage for 40+ years.

lazylad

Yeah well if people complain leave them complain. They dont know the cost of living in other countries. Why not next time you just tell the complaining person to move away? That wud be a great way to shut them up

Stephen

Stephen wrote:

I hope the arse falls out of the house market at some stage in the near future, it would be nice to afford somewhere to live without requiring a mortgage for 40+ years.

And if it did fall it would be a definite sign that the economy is taking a terrible turn for the worse. Alot of Irelands economy is tied to the construction industry, & services industry, and any damage to that would have serious reprecussions. Added to this many people have taken 100% mortgages which means that as interest rates rise and wages lower, the level of repossession by the banks will also rise, kicking alot of people into the street. Increasing the strain on social welfare, and forcing the increase in taxes across the board.

But then, if you have the money you can buy up a fair bit of cheap housing from the banks, and wait till the economy stabilises and resell.

TempestSabre

FillSpectre wrote:

....Along with the people forced out of Dublin stories etc... .... health service isn't that bad or our traffic. ...

From the Dail yesterday. Taoiseach Bertie Ahern

“It is a fact that this city can no longer continue to take the densities that are being forced on it, like the population and traffic pressures...“Without the Government responding to try to move people, we’re having day in and day out, people commuting enormous distances to this city.

So you reckon hes making it up then? Or the queues on the M50 stretching for miles don't exist? Or that the stories about people on trollies in Emergency rooms aren't true, or people waiting for operations aren't true? I'd quote some paper articles from this week, but you don't believe the press.

FillSpectre wrote:

Maybe you are only in touch with people in that situation and think the people who aren't in the situation don't exist. ...
I don't know how we are so out of touch modern Irish life what age are all the people you know having such a hard time? I know nobody unemployed and forced to work in dire conditions except a guard and a nurse and they have some nice perks that off set them. I still think it is media hype.....I have heard many stories of I can't afford to live in Dublin and then hear it is a single person trying to buy a 3 bed house so I don't think it matters. THe head line will read Dublin Teacher can't Afford House"

I never said there were people who aren't in that situation. That would be silly. I said there ARE people in that situation. I would suggest that 100%, and 40yr mortgages are a sign that people are struggling. Also the massive increases in the money spent on subsidised housing. Not to mention the increases in personal debt.

FillSpectre

TempestSabre wrote:

From the Dail yesterday. Taoiseach Bertie Ahern
“It is a fact that this city can no longer continue to take the densities that are being forced on it, like the population and traffic pressures...“Without the Government responding to try to move people, we’re having day in and day out, people commuting enormous distances to this city.
So you reckon hes making it up then? Or the queues on the M50 stretching for miles don't exist? Or that the stories about people on trollies in Emergency rooms aren't true, or people waiting for operations aren't true? I'd quote some paper articles from this week, but you don't believe the press.

He is a politcian I reckon he says what he thinks will have the biggest impact and helps something he wants to do. In this case he is trying to support decentralisation which many see as way to gain political power around the country. The "stories" in the media about how bad things are sells papers so the media aren't exactley great at giving the truth out either. By no means am I saying it is perfect or right. Information fed to the public via media and politicians is only partly true you need to seek out the information. For example

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054926638

What is the point of lying about a 16 year old? THe story is shocking enough yet it is exagerated. I don't beleive in media agenda as such but I beleive in lazy journalists very easily.

TempestSabre wrote:

I never said there were people who aren't in that situation. That would be silly. I said there ARE people in that situation. I would suggest that 100%, and 40yr mortgages are a sign that people are struggling. Also the massive increases in the money spent on subsidised housing. Not to mention the increases in personal debt.

I don't cliam nobody is in the situation but how many people do you know with 40 year mortgage, working overtime,100% mortgage and commuting 4 hours a day? Your example suggests there are loads of people doing this or similar yet I don't know anybody even close. 40 year mortages can be got but how many are 100% too? Do you know anybody commuting 4 hours who did so out of need the closest I know is somebody doing 3.5 hours to own a massive house where they plan to move their job to.
The massive amount of money spent on subsidised housing is what? Unlike the way they used to provide social housing I would guess it costs less. It should not be cosidered a negative because the government don't provide housing the way they did.

I would consider greed and desire the reason people are in debt and I don't blame the government if somebody goes overdrawn it is called personal debit for a reason. When I see a massive new car I think somebody would get in to debit for a deprciating asset not the government should help him out or personal debit is terrible.

THe point is yes I do believe it is possible that the case sudies and example in media are could be true but I am saying it is a very small section of the population if true. I do however see daily example of glutiny ,greed, selfishness and over spending. THat is collegues, friends and family but there are further signs in the public. I just think it is easier to believe what I see and can be quantified rather than the media and politicians. I don't know anybody and nobody I know knows anybody actually in the situations described yet in the media and politicians are constatnly going on about such people. I am very suspicious when so much time is focused on figmant issues and real ones aren't addressed. Hospitals ,roads etc do need work but they aren't 3rd world as we get told and we have some good things that other countries copy too. Cherry picking bad example will make you mislreable and do nothing except spread it.

Sam Vimes

sinecurea wrote:

Then what gave birth to the egg?

what gave birth to the egg was an aminal that was almost exactly the same as a chicken but with slight differences. two "almost chickens" had sex and a genetic mutation caused the first true chicken genome.

sinecurea wrote:

I think the chicken came first, then the egg-birth developed later as a better way of doing things.

chickens lay eggs. its in their genome. if it doesn't lay eggs, its not a chicken. it might look exactly like one, but its not

TempestSabre

So basically you believe nothing unless you personally or the people around you have experienced it. Theres no point in debating anything then. I've never been to the North Pole or know anyone whos been there so I guess it doesn't exist. I've only seen it in the media.

I have contact with a lot of very different people. People struggling and in those situations you don't believe exist, and also people who are doing so well they are practically in a different world.

ambro25

Rep + 1 @ Commander Vimes

@ OP - yes, you've only got yourselves to blame, period.

The property market in Dublin is not value for money, hasn't been for years. I'll not call it a bubble because we all know where this thread would end, but it is very artificial, not to say 'bellybuttonistic' : €500 to €600k for a 3-bed semi in a Dublin 'burb buys you an awful lot more real estate in much sunnier climates and where the cost of life is cheaper.

But, at the end of the day, getting on the property ladder (and climbing it) is always a personal choice (FillSpectre is right in that respect) - I for one, putting aside all other considerations (100% mortgages over 40 years, it wasn't so long ago that it was only 35, etc. - you get my drift), cannot for the life of me see the wisdom of trading up these days (unless forced by family reasons of course), since the capital appreciation of the asset sold -the previous house/apt- is lost in the purchase of the next one (which has appreciated in the same proportions, unless relocating way-the-f*ck out, hence hours' worth of commute etc.). Yet so many people are.

Personally, I'm never buying here no matter how long I end up staying in Ireland (unless the proverbial ass mentionned in thread earlier falls way-out and there becomes real value for money to be had again)... Whether you spend €2k pm on a mortgage in IE, or €1k in rent in IE and €1k on a mortgage in FR/ES/IT/wherever sunnier for something bigger with more land, is up to you (and don't you all thank me at once for not contributing to the property madness )

J.R.HARTLEY

if all the minimum wage workers never had it so good, why are poeple like hobbs and lee from Rte and even the politicians worried about the amount of debt people are in these days, also people can't afford pension plans either, people who think ireland is perfectly affordable should come out and work with the VdeP for a few weeks, might just open your eyes, there are bigger spheres of existance other than yours. and as for traffic being a worse problem than the Health System :rolleyes:

by the way sorry to not appreciate your oversimplification OP but we were assured by the head of the IIB bacnk on last nights news that the rise in interest rates had a large part to play in the current problems, plus what he says is an unexpalinabley uncompetitive basic living market, i.e. when the grocerys bill was scrapped basic amenites like food have actually gone up in price

FillSpectre

TempestSabre wrote:

So basically you believe nothing unless you personally or the people around you have experienced it. Theres no point in debating anything then. I've never been to the North Pole or know anyone whos been there so I guess it doesn't exist. I've only seen it in the media.

No I don't believe stories about how hard life is for everybody when everybody I know is not having a hard time. I believe human nature more than I believe sources that have a different agenda, politicians do it to get votes and papers do it to sell papers.

TempestSabre wrote:

I have contact with a lot of very different people. People struggling and in those situations you don't believe exist, and also people who are doing so well they are practically in a different world.

So you do know people with 40 year mortgages, working overtime to pay it, 100% mortgage and 4 hour commutes? Are there many people you know like this? Do you think any of them have made particularly unwise choices to get into this situation. I know one guy who lost his house and car but he spent his money unwisely I hold him responsible for that. I am sure some are struggling but is 5% or 80% population? The media coverage would suggest it is a huge amount of people which is the bit I am trying to figure out. I also don't understand why people use the worst imaginable case to prove Ireland has major problems I am expect to see if a building fell down expecting to kill all inside and only 10% died the headiline here would read "1 in 10 killed in Horror building" It is not like a half empty half full arguement it is more like the glass is not completely full this is an outrage and the government are to blame for everything there doesn't seem to be balance. I would think most of the road deaths are the individuals fault not the roads or the government yet how is it general talked about?

J.R.HARTLEY wrote:

if all the minimum wage workers never had it so good, why are poeple like hobbs and lee from Rte and even the politicians worried about the amount of debt people are in these days, also people can't afford pension plans either, people who think ireland is perfectly affordable should come out and work with the VdeP for a few weeks, might just open your eyes, there are bigger spheres of existance other than yours. and as for traffic being a worse problem than the Health System :rolleyes:

Hobbs wants to be on TV and sell books so like with papers bad news sells(apply to all media). It has been proved that examples and stories in his shows were incorrect and bordering on lies.That is his vested interest and he has profited along with his company. You can sell water to a person if they think they will be thursty it does matter if they are or not.

When did it turn to minimum wage jobs? There has been no refernce to that here.

TempestSabre

I've never met you, and neither has anyone I know. So I don't reckon you exist. Your posts are justs a conspiracy by employers to drive down wages. Nothing you say is true. Everyone getting paid too much. Everyone should live in a box in the middle of the road and be glad of it.

http://www.phespirit.info/montypython/four_yorkshiremen.htm

FillSpectre

TempestSabre wrote:

I've never met you, and neither has anyone I know. So I don't reckon you exist. ]

Well thanks for clearing up my understanding. You are riddiculing me because I am trying to understand the "reality" thanks for being so helpful.:mad:

The fact when asked direct questions about people having hard times you avoided suggest to me that you don't actually know anybody in these situations either. So your style seems to be riddicule me for asking a question and never answer them becasue I might understand?

I never suggest anything about how people should live just that what is in the paper doesn't match anybodies experience I know. Considering I come from a wroking class area on the Northside you think I might notice and so would people I know. The property section in the IrishTimes doesn't show houses on the Northside so according you that might mean I don't exist or that side of the city so maybe you are right after all:rolleyes:

Dragan

Its the fact that we are all willing to pay a premium for **** all, thats the problem. Everyone who ever sets up there own business is looking to get as rich as possible as fast as possible, and rather than this being a case of providing a quality service at a competitive price, it's a case of providing **** for loads of cash before anyone can find out.

BELIEVE!!!!

In seriousness guys, come on, do you think that everyone driving a Beamer or Merc and living in a big house paid cash for that ****? A bigger wage merely entitles you to bigger loans, thats about it.

The problem fueling the whole thing is ego, people trying to convery the perception of success, like the young guys driving 5series BMW's while they need to live at home with Mum and Dad to afford the repayments!!!! When the interest rates for the wrong way the whole country is ****ed.

TempestSabre

FillSpectre - I did reply. Read post #29
FillSpectre - Thats simply your own logic. I agree its ridiculous.

FillSpectre

TempestSabre wrote:

FillSpectre - I did reply. Read post #29
FillSpectre - Thats simply your own logic. I agree its ridiculous.

Hysterical.

If you don't want to actually talk about the subject why bother. You just made any points you have made nonsence. You are morelikey to be a person that believes media blindly to the extent that you would make up stories of hardship to be part of the group.

ambro25

Fact no.1

Fact no.2, extracted from linkie:

The February credit growth rate equalled the October 2005 peak, which was the highest rate recorded since March 2000. PSC expanded by €5.6 billion, bringing total PSC to €268 billion; households account for nearly 46 per cent of this total.

Point no.3, extrapolated from the above:

at 4 million residents in IE, that's €33,500 per head.

In other words, for your average married couple with two kids, €33,500 x 4 = €134,000.

FillSpectre

Ambro what is your point?

TempestSabre

FillSpectre wrote:

Ambro what is your point?

Don't mind him. More nonsence from the media.

TempestSabre

€7.2 billion in SSIA, wait till that hits.

ambro25

FillSpectre wrote:

Ambro what is your point?

I thought it was rather self-explanatory :rolleyes: -

Do you find it funny that people who complain about the price of living
in Ireland are the exact same people who will demand a wage increase?

indeed, "we only have ourselves to blame" for taking on so much personal debt -which includes mortgage lending- and maintaining the upward, interdependent pressure on wage increase and price of living, QED by numbers.

(not that I include myself in that lot, I don't have any loans of any sort and am rather cash-positive these days )


LOL @ TempestSabre - however, figures complied by the CSO, so not quite 'the media'

FillSpectre

ambro25 wrote:

(not that I include myself in that lot, I don't have any loans of any sort and am rather cash-positive these days )

What is your biggest asset then and what security do you have? I also have no loans but I do have a mortgage. Rent would have to drop considerably (50%) before I would be in a better situation by renting. It sounds like you are taking a big risk but saying everybody else is taking the risk am I wrong? I get you don't think it is a risk but you do accept that it could be seen that way by some.

ambro25 wrote:

LOL @ TempestSabre - however, figures complied by the CSO, so not quite 'the media'

He seems to have trouble understanding some basic concempts I wouldn't care if didn't agree but he doesn't express understanding and riddicules those asking for explanantions.

ambro25

FillSpectre wrote:

What is your biggest asset then and what security do you have?

Figuratively, my biggest asset is my family.

Realistically, my biggest asset is my professional know-how and the security that I have is how I look after it (and myself, consequentially).

Factually, I do not own anything - which makes life oh-so-much simpler in terms of liability and how I can maintain a standard of life for my family irrespective of any hypothetical 'life knocks'.

To my mind, an asset is property and possessions that can be used to secure a debt - well your house, if mortgaged still, is not an asset because it isn't your property, it's the bank's (until your mortgage is paid up). In terms of securing a debt on it, you can't do that without the mortgaging bank's say-so (read any mortgage fine print - most people don't and merrily secure personal loans on their house, which isn't theirs to beging with and... it gets messy).

In the same logic, your mortgage is an asset to the banker (no risk to him - if you can't repay he gets the bricks and eventually a margin, if you can repay he gets the calculated margin at term).

FillSpectre wrote:

It sounds like you are taking a big risk but saying everybody else is taking the risk am I wrong? I get you don't think it is a risk but you do accept that it could be seen that way by some.

For all monetary things, I consider two factors: (1) value-for-money and (2) logical end-game.

Let's agree that in terms of real estate, there is none of (1) in Dublin at the moment. That leaves (2), the logical end-game.

My logical end-game is retiring before a certain age *wherever*, with a garanteed *very* comfortable income, which is (a) independent of governements' fiffing-and-faffing with public and private pension schemes and regulations and whatnot, and (b) tracks inflation comfortably, (c) all the while enjoying finer things in life with an enjoyable quality of life (we are here but once, after all).

So, so long as my capital appreciation is on time and target to meet (a) and (b), inclusive of rent during the 'build-up' phase (and it actually appreciates faster than even Dublin's real estate anyway), I'd be stark bonkers to sink a goodly portion of it in vastly-overvalued, quite mundane piles of bricks.

I therefore don't quite see it as "risk", somehow - people who are desperate to jump on the property ladder and will go to any length to secure deposit and 100% mortgages, on the other hand, should.

For if and when (I'll concede that there's still an 'if' ) it all goes to the wall and the bank repo's your house, if they're left out of pocket after disposing of the repo'd property, they will still come after your ass for the balance, btw.

Likewise, if it does not go to the wall, good for you but you have to consider the situation in which you want to trade up (kids, etc.), and understand that while your property has appreciated, so has that of anyone else, so you're more or less back to square one at trade time (the slight difference, with a market as dynamic as Dublin, being how good with money and your job you've been in the intervening time that gives you that extra bit €s more to tack on the end).

But if you're renting, that's transparent because rents in Dublin have quit tracking actual purchase price a long time ago already - just so you can live in places for half the price that a mortgage would cost to actually buy it. In terms of buying to invest therefore, it currently makes no sense to buy in Dublin at the moment, because (1) the yield is way out of whack and (2) unless you're an institutional investor with deep pockets, you just cannot afford to have a mortgaged empty place to lease/rent for long at all - so the rent price stabilises, if it doesn't actually fall. That works for me as the renter, not for you as the landlord.

TempestSabre

FillSpectre - How am I riddicules by using your own logic? Which is if I have no personal experience, 1st or 2nd hand of something, it doesn't exist (or isn't true). Or that all other sources have vested interests therefore their data is not credible. Of course theres no possibility the people I/you know also are not being totally honest is there.

Looking at the CSO figures (I'll have to believe them I know people working there) I'm reminded how banks are fueling the fire in the first place by offering such huge credit, of course they stand to reap a bounty havest in interest. If you couldn't get the credit, as a developer or as a property buyer you wouldn't have the choice.

As for renting, thats been an established lifestyle choice (according to people I know) in many other countries for decades. For people starting out, the disparity between renting and mortgages is huge.

FillSpectre

ambro25 wrote:

To my mind, an asset is property and possessions that can be used to secure a debt - well your house, if mortgaged still, is not an asset because it isn't your property, it's the bank's (until your mortgage is paid up). In terms of securing a debt on it, you can't do that without the mortgaging bank's say-so (read any mortgage fine print).

I would consider that a very narrow inaccurate view of what an asset is. As you don't have a mortgage maybe you are not aware that the bank can't really tell you what to do with your property it is that their interset is acknowledge. If I buy a house for 100k with 80k mortgage I own 20% of the property (in fact I own the entire thing i just have a loan). As time goes on my percentage of ownship increses so I am accumilating while living. It is an asset to own a house with a mortgage. I understand what you are saying but no form of accountancy or economics would agree IMHO.

ambro25 wrote:

For all monetary things, I consider two factors: (1) value-for-money and (2) logical end-game.

Let's agree that in terms of real estate, there is none of (1) in Dublin at the moment. That leaves (2), the logical end-game.

LOL. YOu don't get to make a wild statement like 1 and skip over it. You must live somewhere. How are you calculating this into your expenses? Is your Rent cheaper than at the point you may have been able to buy at. Say you could have bought two years ago would your mortgage for that property now compared with your rent now? I genuienly believe renting is fine and not dead money. The arguement against it is however that your mortgage remain relatively stable while rent rises faster. 1/3 of your income when buying become less as you earn more while renting rent keeps in-line with inflation more so hence could constantly remain a 1/3

ambro25 wrote:

My logical end-game is retiring before a certain age *wherever*, with a garanteed *very* comfortable income, which is (a) independent of governements' fiffing-and-faffing with public and private pension schemes and regulations and whatnot, and (b) tracks inflation comfortably, (c) all the while enjoying finer things in life with an enjoyable quality of life (we are here but once, after all).

Independent of government gaurentees is another term for unsecured;). AS you won't own property as such you will be renting at full market values right? That would need to be some large nest egg to cover rent as you head for 90 some 25 years after 40 year working life (estimate using 20 and 65 ages). THe ability to find an investment that returns a lot to track inflation is great you should let me know what it is. If it is any stock than you are gambling and it is a risk greater than owning a house. Your choice but

So, so long as my capital appreciation is on time and target to meet (a) and (b), inclusive of rent during the 'build-up' phase (and it actually appreciates faster than even Dublin's real estate anyway), I'd be stark bonkers to sink a goodly portion of it in vastly-overvalued, quite mundane piles of bricks.

ambro25 wrote:

For if and when (I'll concede that there's still an 'if' ) it all goes to the wall and the bank repo's your house, if they're left out of pocket after disposing of the repo'd property, they will still come after your ass for the balance, btw.

I see all these ifs but looking at long term rental I don't see ifs I see what has happened and seems to be constant.
1)Rent rises more than mortgages
2)After years of renting you don't accumilate an asset
3) A landlord will kick you out before a bank ever will
4) In the event of death an asset is left by a homeowner.

Overall you don't need to keep using derogatory remarks about houses you have chossen to go another route becasue you think it is better. I still don't know what it is and you haven't really explained how it is better.

AS far as I can gather you are saying you are investing in something that you believe will increase enough to sustatin your life and stay in-line with inflation while paying rent and this will all be worth more than property appreciation in the long term. Is that right?

Now as far as I can work out for that to work your rent would need to be a lot less than any mortgage past or present forever. Unless of course you are getting free accomdation. Because you need to have spare cash to invest over your living expenses.

Your choice one way or the other but it doesn't sound viable for most. Additions like kids, sickness and parents tend to change things. I think housing makes more sense and is generally more versatile than investments. I wouldn't invest money in Irish property but I would rather pay off a mortgage than rent. Not purely as a money thing but a privacy and control of where I live thing. I get to buy a furniture (another asset) paint as I like etc... Renting does not have that freedom. I can increse the value of my property I can generally make it my home. Renting has good points but long term you have less freedom and choices.

Are you really suggeting it is better for a 20 year old to rent for say 50 years then retire and live of their investments is a viable option for most as opposed to buying a house and paying a mortgage?

Dragan

FillSpectre wrote:

(in fact I own the entire thing i just have a loan). As time goes on my percentage of ownship increses

How does you percent of ownership increase over time if you already "own the entire thing"?

Sorry but this makes no sense. At all.

TempestSabre

FillSpectre wrote:

....If I buy a house for 100k with 80k mortgage I own 20% of the property (in fact I own the entire thing i just have a loan).....

Who has the deeds.

FillSpectre wrote:

...Are you really suggeting it is better for a 20 year old to rent for say 50 years then retire and live of their investments is a viable option for most as opposed to buying a house and paying a mortgage?...

Whats the difference if the 20yr old has to pay considerably more in repayments than in rent, and you end up with repayments for 40 or even 50yrs. Your kids might be better off, when you die. But they'd be 60 by the time that happens, so in fact its your grandchildren who would be better off.

ambro25

FillSpectre wrote:

I would consider that a very narrow inaccurate view of what an asset is.

No. I'd consider that an accurate view.

I have had several mortgages to date (in several countries) and am well appraised of the fact that until the bank gives you the deeds to the house (at the successful conclusion of the mortgage), it is theirs. No ifs, no buts and whether you like it or not, that's just God's honest truth.

FillSpectre wrote:

If I buy a house for 100k with 80k mortgage I own 20% of the property (in fact I own the entire thing i just have a loan). As time goes on my percentage of ownship increses so I am accumilating while living. It is an asset to own a house with a mortgage. I understand what you are saying but no form of accountancy or economics would agree IMHO.

No. Gross (but common) misconception. The bank owns 80% of it, is the way you have to look at it. Even by the time you've paid 99% of it, it's still the bank, by contract.

FillSpectre wrote:

LOL. YOu don't get to make a wild statement like 1 and skip over it.

In what sense have I skipped over it?

Of course I can. I may not subscribe to the real estate rat race prevalent in Dublin, doesn't mean I don't keep my finger on the pulse of the market (I wouldn't want to miss out a juicy deal, if I ever came across it - only imbeciles never change their minds)

FillSpectre wrote:

How are you calculating this into your expenses? Is your Rent cheaper than at the point you may have been able to buy at.

Yes. And I do pay rent, btw.

FillSpectre wrote:

Say you could have bought two years ago would your mortgage for that property now compared with your rent now?

It would still be way above the rent.

FillSpectre wrote:

The arguement against it is however that your mortgage remain relatively stable while rent rises faster.

Not for the last 7 years or so, based on my research of the rent market in Dublin before moving over.

FillSpectre wrote:

1/3 of your income when buying become less as you earn more while renting rent keeps in-line with inflation more so hence could constantly remain a 1/3

Again, rent has not kept track of inflation (and property price rises) any time over the past 7 years or so in Dublin. Don't go asking me for quotes, I did the research and maths in August'04, suffice to say I know how to count, factor in inflation and interest rates generally, and I'm increasingly winning on that front.

FillSpectre wrote:

Independent of government gaurentees is another term for unsecured;).

Correct. Win more, lose less.

FillSpectre wrote:

AS you won't own property as such you will be renting at full market values right?

Correct. The upside is I choose where I pay rent, and relocate as and when time and/or local market conditions require. And of course, who says market, says choice and barter.

FillSpectre wrote:

That would need to be some large nest egg (etc.)

Need-to-know basis, m8, need-to-know

FillSpectre wrote:

I see all these ifs but looking at long term rental I don't see ifs I see what has happened and seems to be constant.

1)Rent rises more than mortgages

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Historically, maybe, probably, but as with all such matters, too many variable to draw cast-iron conclusions, so it depends where, when, etc.

2)After years of renting you don't accumilate an asset

True. And so what if I do not subscribe to the conventional wisdom (?) of what an asset is and/or I should be striving to buy?

3) A landlord will kick you out before a bank ever will

Not if you don't give him any reason to - especially in these times, wherein one in the hand is better than two in the bush

[in all sincerity and for that matter, I am the model tenant, so that helps - by way of analogy, think of it as buying a 2nd hand car: from the dealer with all the gubbins, low mileage and FMDSH, or from an auction with no paperwork? ]

4) In the event of death an asset is left by a homeowner.

And a goodly sum recovered by the governement in the process. Thanks but no thanks

FillSpectre wrote:

Overall you don't need to keep using derogatory remarks about houses you have chossen to go another route becasue you think it is better. I still don't know what it is and you haven't really explained how it is better.

I don't understand your point in this bit. (Erm... as for "derogatory remarks", what is it to you btw? Did you design them or something )

FillSpectre wrote:

AS far as I can gather you are saying you are investing in something that you believe will increase enough to sustatin your life and stay in-line with inflation while paying rent and this will all be worth more than property appreciation in the long term. Is that right?

I don't believe anything until I see it (strangely enough, my patron is not St Thomas, though...!). It's simple maths: lowest achievable interest rate for this financial vector or that placement is X % over period Y, value at maturity will be Z, so I need €-so-much-by-age A to achieve garanteed return of B monthly /quarterly /annually for ever more thereafter...

FillSpectre wrote:

Now as far as I can work out for that to work your rent would need to be a lot less than any mortgage past or present forever.

Rent in Dublin is way less than mortgages. Check daft, myhome or wherever and work it out. It's usually half of the mortgage monthly repayment (and don't forget all these other things that tag along mortgage: insurance, maintenance, etc. - these that are not offset by the lease)

FillSpectre wrote:

Unless of course you are getting free accomdation.

I'm not.

FillSpectre wrote:

Because you need to have spare cash to invest over your living expenses.

That's where it pays to pay attention in maths 101 and economics 101

Mortage @ €2k pm vs Rent @ €1k pm = €1k pm to invest = €12k py to invest. Over 20 years(when you're just about starting to make a dent in the capital portion of your 40 year mortgage), do the maths.

FillSpectre wrote:

Your choice one way or the other but it doesn't sound viable for most. Additions like kids, sickness and parents tend to change things.

Know about those well. Already in hand and what do you know? The formula still works!

FillSpectre wrote:

I think housing makes more sense and is generally more versatile than investments. (...). Not purely as a money thing but a privacy and control of where I live thing.

And that's exactly why most people in Ireland can't relate to a 'continental' view of the matter. Property is still a Holy Grail here (and the UK) and there's still, socially and culturally, too many emotional strings attached to the whole thing.

FillSpectre wrote:

I get to buy a furniture (another asset) paint as I like etc... Renting does not have that freedom.

I have my own furniture. I make it a point to have the landlord remove his (most often sub-standard) furniture, or I find unfurnished (way cheaper still). I paint the property with the landlord's consent to our tastes.

FillSpectre wrote:

I can increse the value of my property I can generally make it my home.

I get to maintain the value of the landlord's home abit better than your average tenant, and I reap benefits in a stable rent.

FillSpectre wrote:

Renting has good points but long term you have less freedom and choices.

Disagree very much on this point. You have much, much less freedom once you own the bricks as opposed to just live in them, because by the time you own the bricks, your spending power has gone poof (you're retired!) - what is your choice then? trade down and free up some cash? You might as well have invested the mortgage repayments over the period and not given €000s of hard-earned taxed cash in interests to the bank, because you with the house paid up and me with the big nest egg are probably worth just as much by then: the difference is, I can live comfortably on the interests, you can't unless you dispose of your asset!

FillSpectre wrote:

Are you really suggeting it is better for a 20 year old to rent for say 50 years then retire and live of their investments is a viable option for most as opposed to buying a house and paying a mortgage?

Yes - but you've got to be a bit good to do it, of course. And it would apparently require a lot of people in this country, as in many others, to undergo a rather radical change of mindset. But hey - I'm not criticising as such, just pointing viable alternatives.

Think of it this way: your house won't put food on your table and pay your bills when you retire, and neither will the governement through state pensions. But a 40 years mortgage, even accounting for gradual pay increase ove the period, hardly leaves much room to stash those funds away for comfortable older days until the last few years of employment - so you finally finished paying your mortgage? Great! Guess what, you still can't go on holidays or treat yourself to this or that week-end toy, 'cause now you've got to pay in your pension else you're going to starve to death in your paid-up palace for the next 20 years !

FillSpectre

ambro25 wrote:

Yes - but you've got to be a bit good to do it, of course. And it would apparently require a lot of people in this country, as in many others, to undergo a rather radical change of mindset. But hey - I'm not criticising as such, just pointing viable alternatives.

Actually here is what I now understand about what you are saying. You made money on property and elsewher and now don't think it is worth while buying in dublin. I am guessing mostly becusae you invested the money you have made on your property(?) into something like gold or oil recently (so you feel real good right now). The fact you are now old enough and financially secure enough you appaer at least to be gloating and laughing at the people still in the property game. Rents in Dublin certainly have gone up in the last 7 years but the detail of your arguement doesn't really matter. What ever you make your money on means you have a considerably large income that most people don't. You may think you did it all yourself but luck starting at birth tends to have a big impact. The mind set change accross europe is the fact they have socilist policies protecting those who rent unlike here and the UK hence a different mind set.

I must say your tone is quite arrogant. Rather than explain anything you have just nitpicked. You could have just explained the sitution without every second line quoted.

Your math doesn't work out for people as it require enough money to pay rent and also invest. You must have a huge asset or save huge percentage of your income for it to pay the divident you are suggesting. Your claim to have no assets is incorrect as is your definition.

Look up the definition

http://www.economist.com/research/Economics/alphabetic.cfm?LETTER=A#ASSETS

ambro25 wrote:

Think of it this way: your house won't put food on your table and pay your bills when you retire, and neither will the governement through state pensions. But a 40 years mortgage, even accounting for gradual pay increase ove the period, hardly leaves much room to stash those funds away for comfortable older days until the last few years of employment - so you finally finished paying your mortgage? Great! Guess what, you still can't go on holidays or treat yourself to this or that week-end toy, 'cause now you've got to pay in your pension!

If you stay renting in Ireland you don't have security so you would have even less money than a mortgage. It really sounds like you have no concept of what the situation is here. Rent is in some cases cheaper than a mortgage here which is a relatively recent change. the difference is till quite small so rather than rent and pay extra for the future spending more on your house actually does make more sense. Most rental property in this country comes furnished so you can't get your own. I think you are trying to applied european living here without the backup they have there

ambro25

FillSpectre wrote:

Actually here is what I now understand about what you are saying. You made money on property and elsewher and now don't think it is worth while buying in dublin.

Quite correct. Bravo Sherlock

FillSpectre wrote:

I am guessing mostly becusae you invested the money you have made on your property(?) into something like gold or oil recently (so you feel real good right now).

Good lord no, not commodities - that's too long term and a difficult-enough trend to spot, as a non-trader/non-professional stock market person. I'm more the hit-&-run type (20% here 40% there ). It soon adds up, even if you only start with €100.

FillSpectre wrote:

The fact you are now old enough and financially secure enough you appaer at least to be gloating and laughing at the people still in the property game.

Not so. And I am genuinely sorry that you would feel this way.

OK, perhaps my 'you've got to be a bit good' comment was (i) mis-phrased and (ii) not needed - what I meant to say is that you'd have to learn the lessons along the way and make sure you don't repeat the mistakes which taught them (which after a fashion, makes you 'good' at anything, really).

All I'm trying to say is that there are alternatives to the prevalent social and cultural model that in this country (and many others in EU) drives the average household to record levels of debt, as well as the ages-old social and cultural model that drives the average household into property no-matter-what-the-price. The message here is simple: don't spend money you don't have, get it first then spend it.

FillSpectre wrote:

What ever you make your money on means you have a considerably large income that most people don't.

No so (again!). Considering current average income across Dublin, I'd say average - strangely enough

FillSpectre wrote:

You may think you did it all yourself but luck starting at birth tends to have a big impact.I must say your tone is quite arrogant. Rather than explain anything you have just nitpicked. You could have just explained the sitution without every second line quoted.

Is that an inferiority complex I can spot, or do you carry that aircraft carrier on your shoulder all day long?

FillSpectre wrote:

The mind set change accross europe is the fact they have socilist policies protecting those who rent unlike here and the UK hence a different mind set.

Seems to me the "socilist policies protecting those who rent" are alive and well in the Republic also, latest I heard So what's your point?

FillSpectre wrote:

Your math doesn't work out for people as it require enough money to pay rent and also invest. You must have a huge asset or save huge percentage of your income for it to pay the divident you are suggesting. Your claim to have no assets is incorrect as is your definition.

Of course it does... well, could: it's a long-haul process, so you gotta have some staying power, and you gotta keep at it 'til it starts to pay. Noone said it was easy, and I've yet to know of any kind of revenue-earning activity that doesn't require hard graft of some form or another.

FillSpectre wrote:

If you stay renting in Ireland you don't have security so you would have even less money than a mortgage.

Not sure I'm getting your logic here. What's the link between 'staying renting in Ireland' and 'security'? Define 'secuity', please. [not that I intend to retire in Ireland, mind]

FillSpectre wrote:

It really sounds like (etc.) I think you are trying to applied european living here without the backup they have there

What 'back up'? What are you on about?