UCDSU Union or Service Provider?

pretty*monster

To avoid incurring more of peachy's wrath, I thought I'd make a new thred to answer firespinner.

Firespinner wrote:

To the majority of students it is nothing more than a service provider. Ents is probably the most well-known position FFS. The whole point of the union (currently) is to serve students. That means pubs, shops, condoms, parties etc. The "campaigning union" is the wet dream of a minority, a left-over ideal whose sell-by date has long-passed.

Oh and the union should connect with students not sit back and wait for them to come to it.

'The union' are the students. I assume you mean the sabts and exec (because a class rep is there to repsesent her class not to reach out to meds and whatever). They make an effort but there are five of them doing it full time and four juggling exec duties with they're studies, 20,000 students is a lot to connect with. I'm not for a second saying they shouldn't make every attempt to, but the students have to meet them half way.

And I don't mean this solely in terms of an 'active campaigning' union. I mean this in terms of, if the union runs an awareness week the more help the better, the more people who submit to the grinds file the better, the more people who'll show up and sit on representative bodies like Teaching and Learning Board, or Academic Council (at the last BA Programme board only two student reps out of ten showed up, which was a bloody disgrace because Heads of Department were looking for feedback on modularisation of first years and since my self and the other guy were second years we could only tell them what we knew from gossip and hearsay). The more people who go to sabats and say we need a printer credit machine cos ours keeps breaking the better. The union works as far as you use it. You get out of it what you put in. It can't just dispense things, it doesn't have any power without students behind it.

That's what I mean when I say it isn't a service provider.

The sabats don't know what meds, law, arts, whatever want if they don't tell them.
Ok, and from dealing with Arts, who are far less apathetic about the union, I know that even if you ask people what they want they won't necessarily tell you. Example: running up to the modularisation campaign we had numerous open meetings and appeals for students to air their views on the subject, we got a limited response, and of course, after the fact a certain amount of people complaining that this or that view wasn't represented, but I mean, what can you do ff people won't speak up even when you explicitly ask them?

You have to make your voice heard.
Seriously.
That's one of the reasons that I see red when I hear people complaining about 'lefties' directing the union towards their own ends. Those so called 'lefties' are people you can rely on to show up and put in the work. If people of differing ideologies would do likewise I'd be over the moon (in some ways... not so much in others of course .

singingstranger

Kate, might be an idea to add a poll to this thread asking people whether they see the union as just a service provider or not?

dajaffa

Well part of the problem is a lack of awareness among students as to what the union can do for them, though I hear plans are afoot for next year to try and sort this out.

Chinafoot

Poll added.

Stepherunie

Speaking from a rad point of view - we've had to spend a lot of time working with the SU this year over a lot of issues we've had, I won't bore you with the details but anyone who knows any of us will know what i'm talking about.

Without there help a whole load of people would have been forced to repeat a year and a lot of issues to do with other things that i really need work wouldn't have been sorted, admittedly we were also lucky that we also had Prof Powderly nearly being driven mad by our situation but he also helped quite a lot.

Red Alert

Or both, or none.

Currently as i see it the services side works extremely well, and could do better. Particularly books, copying and similar stuff. Ents has done a fairly good job in the last year or so. The shops are excellent, but we need more of them in key locations. The off-licence/cans in the bar should be looked at, in fact a reform of both bars needs to be urgently done.

Campaigning wise the union did score a semi-victory on modularisation, which the college had decided was a done deal. The way i see it the union should be like a lens that focuses the interests of the students it represents. It's not doing that well at all at the moment, and needs badly to work on it.

We need our union to do both of these tasks well IMHO.

Stabshauptmann

Student activism doesnt appeal to everyone, I see it as a service the union provides, just like the grinds file or accomadation office. There if you want it but not the be all and end all of union activities, or even the main one!

But by student activism I mean the likes of the anti-war campaign. Stuff like modularisation and the rip off that effect all students shouldnt be lumped in with abortion for example. That to me is the seperate area of student representation. And isnt that the main critique ppl often have of union activism; namely that its campaings arent about student issues?

The union for me is a student governance body, it provides services for students. Two of the services it provides, representation and activism are often lumped together as one service, wrongly IMO.

scop

I wish I could say it was a Union, but honestly it is a service provider.

Althoguh I realise student unions are not the same as actual unions, I still believe nobody ought to have to join the Union unless they wish to.

They provide some service, and good people down the corridor can do good work.

Activists however worry because they care so much about ideals they wonder why most people are indifferent, the reality I guess is simple, once the wheels keeping moving nobody cares what dodgy deals go on.

Most of us are indifferent until it directly affects us and as nice, middle class university students the list of problems affecting us at a non superficial level is almost non existant.

Stabshauptmann

*Idle musing* If I had made that poll I would have made the options "campaigning union" / "campaigner" Vs "Service Provider" Obviously the SU is a union of some sorts...[sic]

*Idle musings switch to kittens because thats what the fluffy slippers Im staring at reming me of*

*Ends post because of peachys warning about OT posting

*Wonders why Im posting my inner monologue

**Did I just steal that from Scrubs?

*Why are you asking me, I dont know anything you dont?

OmFg! Im TALkinG to MeSeLF!!11111!!!

Chinafoot

Do that again and you can have a week off. I'm not just saying it for the craic lads.

As for the poll, if pretty*monster wants me to change it she can let me know.

Now can we please get this back to the discussion at hand.

humbert

Ah that was funny and not entirely off topic:)

I feel that the union should focus more on smaller more practical things like bikes being stolen, vending machines not working, relaxing the rules about drinking on campus, copy print stuff, doing something more constructive than mounting impotent protests about hilpers prices and less on their stance on abortion, the war on Iraq, banning coke, implementing fair trade coffee and workers rights. I suppose that would make it a service provider but if people really felt the unions primary goal was to make a practical difference they might start to give a shit.

beanyb

humbert wrote:

implementing fair trade coffee

That was actually a world aid thing, the union helped a tiny bit, but the group that met outside world aid context was effectively just world aid again! nice to know our hard work is getting the credit it deserves. :rolleyes:

But back on topic
I'd have to go with the union not being merely a service provider as Firespinner meant it. The campaigns it ran on modularisation this year and last year were important. If it werent for their representation on universities bodies the needs of students would be totally overlooked. Then we'd be royally f*cked.

pretty*monster

Ok... but the problem I have with seeing the union as a serivce provider is that students then treat it as and entity that just dispences things with no input from them.

Then when the union needs the force of it's members behind it (like on a grants campaign, modularisation campaign, fees, *insert whatever issue you care about here*) the students aren't as willing to get involeved because they don't see the union as 'them' they see it as 'the union', other people who do stuff for them.

The point I'm trying to make I guess, is that it isn't about contentious national issues like abortion, war etc. The union can't function adaquatly on things that are indisputably studant issues without the active participation of it's members.

Chinafoot

pretty*monster wrote:

The point I'm trying to make I guess, is that it isn't about contentious national issues like abortion, war etc. The union can't function adaquatly on things that are indisputably studant issues without the active participation of it's members.

I really don't want to get involved in this argument but I will say to that, that for a lot of people I know, the reason they don't want to actively participate is because all they usually see from the Union are issues that they class as not directly affecting them as students.

The national issues are the ones that appear the most obviously and the union are most vocal on them (and thats my opinion from what I've experienced in UCD over the past three years) and perhaps the lack of interest stems from the fact the students would prefer the Students Union to focus on student issues.

And before any starts this "but working conditions of Irish Ferry workers does affect students, what about when we leave and get jobs" yadda yadda yadda.....as far as I'm concerned the SU should be there to deal with issues that directly affect students while they are in the college.

Red Alert

that's true. we'll have unions (if we choose our jobs carefully when we leave). it would be one thing if everything here was hunky dory but it isn't. libraries, res, computing, modularisation, bars, ents, food provision are all in dire need of campaigning and reform. that will only happen if the union focuses on these issues and forgets about protesting about random stuff.

The_Minister

Firstly, Great post Peachy.

Secondly,

pretty*monster wrote:

To avoid incurring more of peachy's wrath, I thought I'd make a new thread to answer firespinner.

Good Idea. I was actually going to do it later but I didn't get off my ass in time.

pretty*monster wrote:

And I don't mean this solely in terms of an 'active campaigning' union. I mean this in terms of, if the union runs an awareness week the more help the better, the more people who submit to the grinds file the better, .......................The more people who go to sabats and say we need a printer credit machine cos ours keeps breaking the better. The union works as far as you use it. You get out of it what you put in. It can't just dispense things, it doesn't have any power without students behind it.

That's what I mean when I say it isn't a service provider.

You see, I would include grinds and awareness weeks in services that the SU provides. I would not include a Coke boycott or paying for the defence costs of someone arrested for being disruptive etc. unless a majority of students had backed the move. I don't mean the majority of 10% but the majority of the actual membership of the union.

This is why I view the union as a service provider. It should not take stances on distant issues from students but should focus on vending machines and getting a McDonald's onto campus. In short it should not be a vehicle whereby a small group air their social angst.

pretty*monster wrote:

That's one of the reasons that I see red when I hear people complaining about 'lefties' directing the union towards their own ends. Those so called 'lefties' are people you can rely on to show up and put in the work. If people of differing ideologies would do likewise I'd be over the moon (in some ways... not so much in others of course .

Maybe other ideologies see the union as an u****ortant service provider. Therefore they pay less attention to it. Therefore it abandoned to whatever political jackels want to live in it. Other idiologies only complain when the unions power is twisted in undemocratic ways to suit the needs of a few.
To give you an example its like a group of people taking over the post office - you don't care until they've done it.


EDIT: Why is u****ortant starred?

humbert

nimp is filtered but that's new???

singingstranger

Firespinner - nimp is starred because it was part of a virus-like sig a while back. Unimportant never made it into a filter to be allowed.

Not to go off topic though, I'd like to see where this discourse is going...

The_Minister

singingstranger wrote:

Firespinner - nimp is starred because it was part of a virus-like sig a while back. Unimportant never made it into a filter to be allowed.

So how can you sat ****? Is it like how some others say **** without stars?

humbert

Cuz we're nimping better that you!!:D

dajaffa

Firstly; fock, feck, bollocks,sh1t

just want to see what gets the ******** treatment.

I reckon this year has been both, the s+m campaign, + the night bus was a great service

pretty*monster

Firespinner wrote:

You see, I would include grinds and awareness weeks in services that the SU provides.

Perhaps the problem is with the term service provider, because yes you can see grinds and awareness weeks as services, and if you were being cheeky you could class action over Irish Ferries as a a 'protesting service that the union provides to those who wish to protest'

Ok... but see... the point I'm trying to make is the distinction between active and passive involvement in the union is what is at stake when we think of the union as a service provider.

Like... Ok, my bank is a service provider. I expect my bank to do stuff for me. And send me letters about more stuff it could be doing for me. And generally not screw me over (alright, suspend disbelief for the purposes of that point.
I do not expect my bank to ring me up and say, hey can you give us a hand postering about this new credit card we're bringing out.
Or email me and say, hey the government wants to *insert whatever it is governments do to banks* can you come to an open meeting tomorrow to discuss how we should respond.

Do you follow me? (Say if you don't cos I'm having trouble making this point clear)

The SU is not a service provider in the way that my bank is a service provider. The banks power and authority comes from the bank. The union's power and authority comes from the students.

Lets leave aside, for a moment, all the non-student issues we love/hate so much. (Because as I've said before those issues take up a teeny-teeny amount of the overall time/effort/money of the union)

Take the modularisation information campaign.
Ok, it went well in my book. But, it could have gone so much better, it could have run so much smoother, and at the end of the day more people could have been happier with the outcome had we had more student participation in it.
We held a lot of open meetings on it, put notices in the paper, lecture addressed, passed out flyers... we was litterly gagging for student input on either side of the debate. Ok partly because it would have been a relief to have more people share the workload, but mostly because a diversity of opinion is what you need when you're dealing with an issue that affects so many.
But the responce I seemed to get was, don't care (which is fair enough, I'm not superwomen, I have no plans to rid the university of apathy any time soon) or it's the union's job to deal with it.

That's the kind of attitude I'm talking about that's distructive to the union in anything it tries to do, whether it's representation on college boards, trying to up the quality of food in the resaurant, getting the night bus to service mpre areas, whatever the hell it is that the students want, as long as the majority of people see the union as 'other people who provide us with services', as long as students see problems in ucd as fundamentally the job of someone else, then the union can't function efficently, or to even close to the best of its abilities.


That's what I think, from the inside anyway.

Am I wrong?



(waver: I'm not trying ot say 'damn stupid students seeing the union as a service provider and only involving themeselves in it passivly. There's work that those who are currently active in the union also need to do to make students awatre, both of the value of the union, and of student's responsibility to the union... hmm... there's a paradox in there somewhere unfortunatly.)

The_Minister

pretty*monster wrote:

'protesting service that the union provides to those who wish to protest':D

Ooooh you cheeky little minx.
I have no problem with people protesting as long as they don't mascarade as having the authority to use my voice.




I see your point, but not everyone can get involved in the union (too many cooks). Most people will only use the facilities or pay the fee and that will be their entire participation in the union. That's OK. If something happens that they really care about, then they will rally. Shouting at them and telling them that they should be annoyed does not work because most don't care and they have a right not to care. It is for sad little oinks and in-denial meglomaniacs to run the union until it is needed for something other then cheap rubbers and cheap booze.
If modularisation was a big thing then they would have cared enough to do something. They don't. Deal.




I can say the comments on people running the union because I might run next year.

pretty*monster

Firespinner wrote:

If modularisation was a big thing then they would have cared enough to do something. They don't. Deal.

And yet people cered enough to complain after the fact. Funny that.

Firespinner wrote:

It is for sad little oinks and in-denial meglomaniacs to run the union until it is needed for something other then cheap rubbers and cheap booze.

As one who has a small part (and is well know to have had aspiriations to a larger part ) in the running of the union I take quite a bit of exception to that comment.

singingstranger

Firespinner wrote:

It is for sad little oinks and in-denial meglomaniacs to run the union until it is needed for something other then cheap rubbers and cheap booze.

TBH so do I but to a much lesser extent, only being one of those behind-the-wheels-I-take-minutes-not-all-that-important types.

I think, as per usual, it boils down to a fundamental difference of opinion. The people who care deeply about international issues and wider-ranging issues that don't have a direct influence on the day-to-day life of a current student (I'm thinking a little bit about Irish Ferries, and don't get me wrong, I understand the logic that says that employment conditions will affect us all eventually) will always feel passionately enough to try and get the weight of a Union behind whatever cause. Those who don't therefore get frustrated because this stuff is being done in their own name.

Ideally the masses would probably be more satisfied if the people who did campaign on these issues did so in personal capacities rather than taking advantage of a Union that would otherwise be perfectly representative of their own apathy.

pretty*monster

*deep breath*

As I've stated several times I'm not actually talking about protesting on mational.international issues.
I'm not even talking about protesting as such.

singingstranger

But, you see, that's how most people of the non-campaigning type would define a "campaigning Union". I don't think anyone would complain about the Union campaigning for, say, extra Daedalus hours.

Essentially I think it boils down to people getting frustrated (Firespinner being a prime example) of action being taken in their name. Which, I guess, is the problem when councillors don't consult their classes before a vote on one is taken at Council.

pretty*monster

singingstranger wrote:

But, you see, that's how most people of the non-campaigning type would define a "campaigning Union". I don't think anyone would complain about the Union campaigning for, say, extra Daedalus hours.

Yeah, but but my point is. If we were campaigning for extra, say, Dedalus hours I really think no one would help. I think most people would see it as, 'something the union is doing for me'... not necessarily in as callus a way as that.
I mean ffs, half the reps don't even do their job. As I mentioned before (on this tread maybe another one). Ten students are supposed to sit on the BA programme boards (presumably a similar number sit on the other programme boards). Three showed up to the first one, two to the second, (ok the third is in the middle of my exams, so I'm missing that). And these are places you can get stuff done before it comes as a big disaster-surprise thing.

I mean, the apathy and the laziness of people, even those with pretensions of active involvement (even those who have the gall to run for sabat and exec (I should probably add that I'm not talking about a certain B.D. here, just before anyone accuses me of being bitter, I don't sit on any boards with him so I don't know what his attendance is like)) simply beggars belief.

And to be honest I think it comes down to more than just frustration that the union acts on 'non-student issues' (c'mon lads, one day at an Irish Ferries Protest, a few hours holding placards for McDowells visit... it's not really eating up anyone time).
I think it's just another symptom of a culture where no one wants to muck in and everyone expects things to fall onto their lap, and do nothing but complain if it doesn't

singingstranger

pretty*monster wrote:

I'm not talking about a certain B.D. here, just before anyone accuses me of being bitter, I don't sit on any boards with him so I don't know what his attendance is like)

In fairness, I can vouch for his impeccable attendance at those boards; anything to do with the School of Business and Law and B.D. will be there.

pretty*monster wrote:

I think it's just another symptom of a culture where no one wants to muck in and everyone expects things to fall onto their lap, and do nothing but complain if it doesn't.

Welcome to Ireland, have a pint...

Mr.Nice Guy

Here's my two cents on this matter.

UCDSU attracts a large number of students who are very committed to political interests. They view the Student Union as a vehicle with which to express their own strong political viewpoints.

The problem is, these people don't realise that the majority of UCD students, who the UCDSU are actually supposed to represent, are not interested or impressed with their student union being used as a mouthpiece by certain Union members whose ultimate aim is to use it a stepping stone for a later political career.

These political types have got away for too damn long with making the Union a haven for lefties who want to hit out at that "big nasty world, man" and as a result, we are now witnessing a backlash from that by students.

Not a fan of Coca Cola? Not a fan of McDowell? Not a fan of how the Irish Ferries dispute has been handled?

Fair enough...BUT DEAL WITH IT ON YOUR OWN TIME.

Leave the political stuff to the politicians. Leave the industrial disputes to SIPTU. And here's a whacky idea...leave the UCD STUDENT UNION to STUDENT MATTERS.

Is it really that difficult to grasp?

pretty*monster

singingstranger wrote:

In fairness, I can vouch for his impeccable attendance at those boards; anything to do with the School of Business and Law and B.D. will be there.

As I said, I wasn't questioning his commitment and effort and the like, but there are definatly some who aren't bothered to put the work in. I'm sure you know yourself

singingstranger wrote:

Welcome to Ireland, have a pint...

What can I say, I'm an idealist, I'm not content to just leave things as 'that's just how it is'

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Not a fan of Coca Cola? Not a fan of McDowell? Not a fan of how the Irish Ferries dispute has been handled?

Fair enough...BUT DEAL WITH IT ON YOUR OWN TIME.

Leave the political stuff to the politicians. Leave the industrial disputes to SIPTU. And here's a whacky idea...leave the UCD STUDENT UNION to STUDENT MATTERS.

Is it really that difficult to grasp?

Right so. Please, please please tell me how I can convince students to care enough to act on issues that I constantly here them moaning about. Crap food in the restaurant. Not enough Books in the library. Grants. Ques for computers. The fact that there's no ventilation in the LGs...
And issues that they don't care abou but should (really, was I the only one a bit... worried by the results of this survey
http://www.ucdasa.org/

Chinafoot

pretty*monster wrote:

I mean, the apathy and the laziness of people, even those with pretensions of active involvement (even those who have the gall to run for sabat and exec (I should probably add that I'm not talking about a certain B.D. here, just before anyone accuses me of being bitter, I don't sit on any boards with him so I don't know what his attendance is like)) simply beggars belief.

So if people don't want to actively get involved yet still expect their ELECTED representatives to do something for them they are lazy?? Thats a bit rich.

I will be 100% honest here, over the past three years I wouldn't have gone anywhere near the union because the only things I had seen them get up and get active about were issues that as far as I was concerned had no relevance to my life as a student.

That does not mean, however, that because I personally don't wish to become actively involved that I can't expect my elected representatives to work on getting a better deal for me as a student. I pay my registration fees so I expect my money (how ever little it may be) to go towards issues that affect my time in UCD.

I believe you when you say that these issues aren't all the union does, however these are the things the students are made most aware of.

If students are apathetic you might want to consider the possibility that this apathy is stemming from the fact that students don't want their union spending time/money (again, how ever little it may be) on national/international issues and as a result they are completley disillusioned when it comes to the union and quite frankly couldnt be bothered.

As far as I'm concerned, with the exception of Jane this year - who I have to say did a cracking job - the Union is a service provider.

pretty*monster

peachypants wrote:

So if people don't want to actively get involved yet still expect their ELECTED representatives to do something for them they are lazy?? Thats a bit rich.

You'll note that I included those elected reps who do nothing under the lazy banner.

But yes, if you want something done and won't help out with the doing of it in someway, I consider you lazy (unless you have a good excuese).

Remember Class reps don't get paid, and we have are exams and essays to do like everyone else, we're doing it (hopefuilly) cos we care about something.
I did have things I'd rather have done that some of the union work I was doing this year, but I did the work anyway because I'm realistic enough to know that if you want change you have to make it happen.

Another modularisation example (they're all i have, it's all it feels like it's all I did all year ): It was a guy in my class who brough the issue to me way back in september and told me he wanted something done about it. Would I have considered him lazy if he hadn't then helped out with tha campaign. Yes, I would have.

Chinafoot

Hang on a second, reps and sabats put themselves forward. Nobody forces you to do it and you should be aware of the time it will take up before you put yourself in that position.

The union is there to represent the students. You guys are our voice.
So if I expect to not have my bike nicked on campus,having reasonably priced healthy food in the restaurant and a book-shop that doesn't involve my getting a bank loan in order to make a purchase, I'm being lazy by not getting out there and roaring my head off in order to get it??

So tell me what my class reps and my elected sabats are actually doing?

I am not saying that the union should be left to do everything as obviously a show of student support is necesary, however I find the term lazy to be massively insulting.

What the martyrs of the union need to realise is that a substantial portion of the student body is pissed off with the union. We're sick of hearing them roar their heads off over issues that don't involve us, the students. Like firespinner said, they claim to be speaking for all of us. And as MNG said a lot of those in the union are using for their own political agenda. This is the type of thing that is turning people off the idea of becoming involved.

You say that national/international issues take up a very small amount of SU time/money? Well as far as I'm concerned, and I'm sure I'm not alone on this, national/international issues should take up zero SU time/money.

Why would the average student want to get involved with a body that is so vocal over issues like Irish Ferry workers, Coca-cola, McDowell etc, when what the average student is concerned about are STUDENT issues? And it is these student issues that we hear so little about.

Class reps need to be sorted out big time. You can't equate the average students lack of knowledge on SU happenings to laziness. Rreps are not doing their jobs properly and the students are clueless and then get called lazy!

It's a student union...not a trade union and not a human rights organisation. If the union actually did what its supposed to do and the students actually seeing progress made on student issues, then you might find the students starting to give a crap.

*waits for obligatory "if you dont like the way the union is run, get involved and change it" response*

A lot of students dont want to get actively involved. Again that doesnt mean they shouldn't get a fair deal while in college. Nor does it mean that they shouldnt expect their representatives to work on it. We have no choice but to be in the union, doesn't mean we all want to be involved.

Diorraing

Its a waste of time and an ego-trip for so many people. I don't see why the college itself requires a big union, it would make more practical sense to have a stronger USI like in England. The USI could bulk-buy for all the colleges and we could start seeing a real "end to the rip-off". At present the SU is too bureocratic and is failing its students dismally. Its not meant to be a platform for people to push forward their own political agendas. What does the UCDSU do that college authorities and the USI can't

Mr.Nice Guy

pretty monster wrote:

But yes, if you want something done and won't help out with the doing of it in someway, I consider you lazy (unless you have a good excuese).

This sums up the problems of UCDSU.

I want to see crime tackled in a better way in this country yet I've no intention of joining the Gardaí - apparently that makes me lazy.

I want to see improvements in healthcare in this country yet i've no intention of joining the health service - apparently that makes me lazy.

I want to see student problems tackled in a better way in UCD yet I've no intention of getting involved with UCDSU - apparently that makes me lazy.

Remove the blinkers.

John_C

There's been a point made a few times here which I strongly agree with; The campaigning on non-student issues alienates most students from the Union. I accept the point that these issues take up a tiny part of the union's time and money but they create a very big problem of credability and goodwill. The majority of students I know are put off from the union by the protests that seem to be held every time a politician visits the college and other similar issues. These protests and campaigns do a huge amount of damage to the union and, in my opinion, need to be curtailed.

peachypants wrote:

*waits for obligatory "if you dont like the way the union is run, get involved and change it" response*

I hear you brother (or possibly sister, such are the problems with either internet discussions or modern language. I don't know). I'm actually one of those stupid people who, when they see something that needs to be done, actually goes and does it. I even went so far as to be my class rep for a year and I think that it was one of the top two most disillusioning experiences of my life.

[Aside]The highlight of the year was listening to Paul Dillon and Angus O'Huraihain row over the significance of the Kevin Barry Window while the rest of us (who had been taken to Dingle at the union's expence) twiddled our thumbs and wondered if us class reps were actuallg going to receive any training.[\Aside]

I don't agree with the opinion that the class reps aren't doing their job, their job is currently stupid. They're not going to get the opinion of their class on council motions when so many pointless political motions are being put forward. There's a bit of a catch 22 situation here because class reps will only do that job when council is a properly functioning body and council might not become a proper body untill reps start doing their jobs.

I also don't agree with the opinion that students are apathetic. As an example, one of the sports clubs I'm involved in held two charity events this year and we had a stupidly high amount of volunteers at both. If you can show a person a constructive way that they can contribute to something that they agree with they will generally help if they can. I think that this ties back to the first point I made about the union's credability. The union has a bad reputation (deserved or not, debate amoungst yourselves) for being overly political. To take the example of the rip off campus campaign, probably everyone I know is in favour of cheap coffee and (I imagine) if myself or someone from my lab were to be involved in a campaign to get the price down, a good gang of us would join in. When the union holds a similar campaign we all avode it like we would some fella on Grafton St. trying to talk us into joining a cult because we've been conditioned to not trust it.

---

I put in a break because this is only a minor point but I'm also of the opinion that the union sometimes calls a campaign too quickly. I there is a practicle solution too a problem the union should apply it and I don't think that that always happens. Two examples:

Rip-off-Campus: Either sell cheap coffe or hand out free boiling water and let students make their own coffee. Watch Hilper's profits take a dive.

Library Books: Make easily photocopyable (and/or .pdf) versions of the books freely available. Rip-off-Bookshop will soon see problems if the books are available for 5 euro worth of photocopy credit.

Vainglory

I'm not going to say too much on this because I really feel that it's all been debated before.

I'll just use a little analogy about the Labour Party instead.

People are always telling me to leave the Labour Party, that it doesn't represent my views, that they're swinging to the right etc, that they are lost to the evils of capitalism blah blah blah.

Many people have already left the party for these reasons, because they didn't like the direction it was going in, and didn't feel they were being represented (somewhat similar to why people perhaps feel alienated from UCDSU).

However, the argument I generally use to these people is that if all the people who had become disillusioned with the party and who thought the party no longer represented them had stayed within the party and used their votes and voices to change it, then it would be a very different party today. It would be the party I want to see.

Agreed that, if this "silent majority" in UCD who hate the way the union is going voted with their feet and used their voices, then they could turn it into the union they want to see? Otherwise, you are left with the people who do vote, and who do use their voices (very often not elected representatives), and they control the direction of the organisation.

PS Thanks peachy

pigeonbutler

Vainglory has just hit the nail on the head. Not to often we agree but she is spot on. If people want the sort of changes to the Union we've seen discussed here, they need to make their voices heard, not neccessarily get involved, because electoral politics isn't for everyone. But they ought to vote and vote for the people that are on their wavelength.

Unfortunately our elections have become more popularity contests lately. As someone involved in a sabbat campaign I'll be the first to admit that. (But for the benefit of pretty*monster, it's for tactical reasons we fought it like that, in an ideal world like I outline here I think we could have won it on the issues.) In an ideal world the majority of students would vote, and they'd make an informed decision on the candidates rather than just vote because their mates told them to.

In an ideal world someone with opinions like me on the union (if seeking election) would tell students the following: I'm a believer in concentrating on DIRECT student issues, I don't think being super-agressive towards college authorities achieves much, and I don't think the Union should support people who go out and break the law of the land while acting in a personal capacity. Now I know not everyone would agree with those ideas (my point is not to debate them on this thread!!, they're just an example), but they're my basic principles for involvement in the SU.

But more importantly other people who don't agree with these (if seeking election) would say as much to students. They'd say: "I want to support people who are in contempt of court orders, I think shouting at Government ministers and jumping in front of their vehicles is an appropriate method of campaigning on students issues. I want to pay fines for students arrested at protests they attended in a personal capacity"

If candidates for election went in and spoke frankly to students in a manner like this then people might start to get the Union they want.

***Health Warning*** It's famously said that democracy gives people the government they deserve
Take that however you wish.

Vainglory

pigeonbutler wrote:

Vainglory has just hit the nail on the head. Not to often we agree but she is spot on. If people want the sort of changes to the Union we've seen discussed here, they need to make their voices heard, not neccessarily get involved, because electoral politics isn't for everyone. But they ought to vote and vote for the people that are on their wavelength.

Unfortunately our elections have become more popularity contests lately. As someone involved in a sabbat campaign I'll be the first to admit that. (But for the benefit of pretty*monster, it's for tactical reasons we fought it like that, in an ideal world like I outline here I think we could have won it on the issues.) In an ideal world the majority of students would vote, and they'd make an informed decision on the candidates rather than just vote because their mates told them to.

In an ideal world someone with opinions like me on the union (if seeking election) would tell students the following: I'm a believer in concentrating on DIRECT student issues, I don't think being super-agressive towards college authorities achieves much, and I don't think the Union should support people who go out and break the law of the land while acting in a personal capacity. Now I know not everyone would agree with those ideas (my point is not to debate them on this thread!!, they're just an example), but they're my basic principles for involvement in the SU.

But more importantly other people who don't agree with these (if seeking election) would say as much to students. They'd say: "I want to support people who are in contempt of court orders, I think shouting at Government ministers and jumping in front of their vehicles is an appropriate method of campaigning on students issues. I want to pay fines for students arrested at protests they attended in a personal capacity"

If candidates for election went in and spoke frankly to students in a manner like this then people might start to get the Union they want.

***Health Warning*** It's famously said that democracy gives people the government they deserve
Take that however you wish.

John I have a reputation to uphold, don't ever say in public that we agree on anything again, y'hear?

Note that I put the "silent majority" in pointed inverted commas..I don't know if it exists or not and to be fair neither do any of you...but until people who really do share your views start communicating them and voting accordingly then I guess we'll never know.

pigeonbutler

Vainglory wrote:

John I have a reputation to uphold, don't ever say in public that we agree on anything again, y'hear?

Note that I put the "silent majority" in pointed inverted commas..I don't know if it exists or not and to be fair neither do any of you...but until people who really do share your views start communicating them and voting accordingly then I guess we'll never know.

This is very true. It's up to ye lot out here to change things!

During the sabbat campaigns Limerick was suggesting that him and I both run for President in 2008 to sort things out once and for all

That might be what's needed!!!

Vainglory

pigeonbutler wrote:

This is very true. It's up to ye lot out here to change things!

During the sabbat campaigns Limerick was suggesting that him and I both run for President in 2008 to sort things out once and for all

That might be what's needed!!!

That would indeed be a battle of epic proportions

To be honest, with one and possibly two abortion referendums coming up next year, and rumblings of a Coke referendum too, I think there'll be quite enough blood spilt on the concourse between left and right by the time the sabbatical elections roll around.

Blowfish

Vainglory wrote:

To be honest, with one and possibly two abortion referendums coming up next year, and rumblings of a Coke referendum too, I think there'll be quite enough blood spilt on the concourse between left and right by the time the sabbatical elections roll around.

Err, isn't that just proving the points that peachy and the others have made all along?

Vainglory

Blowfish wrote:

Err, isn't that just proving the points that peachy and the others have made all along?

My tongue was firmly in my cheek when I said that. As you all know, I don't think it's a bad thing to debate these issues, or that the student population as a whole is asked about them.

pigeonbutler

Blowfish wrote:

Err, isn't that just proving the points that peachy and the others have made all along?

Pretty much. A more united front is what I'd rather see. But to be totally honest the "left" i.e. those in the union whose policies contributors to the thread seem to have the most problem with, aren't really for backing down on anything. Anyone that appeals for moderation and rationality is generally shot down as either a careerist or a CV builder. I want a career in accounting! I don't see how being involved in a Student Union is going to help me much with that.

Vainglory

pigeonbutler wrote:

Pretty much. A more united front is what I'd rather see. But to be totally honest the "left" i.e. those in the union whose policies contributors to the thread seem to have the most problem with, aren't really for backing down on anything. Anyone that appeals for moderation and rationality is generally shot down as either a careerist or a CV builder. I want a career in accounting! I don't see how being involved in a Student Union is going to help me much with that.

Well we'd both like to see united fronts, John, but our two visions of a united front I'd imagine would be radically different in terms of what they might be united on.

AngelofFire

During the sabbat campaigns Limerick was suggesting that him and I both run for President in 2008 to sort things out once and for all

That would be hillarious id actually pay to see that happen.

panda100

I think its good to accumulate a year of union bashing and praising in this thread because at the end of the day this is what most of the arguments boil down to......union or just service provider??

I'm just gonna comment on a few things ......!

First of class reps:
Fundamentally,I really think the class rep system has been the death of the union.Since first year in college its the same people from the same courses getting elected because (A) No one wants to run against them or (b) no one else can be bothered to run.
So year in year out we see the same reps being elected,or not being elected as the case is in many courses.This leaves a stagnant union,with no fresh ideas and just people who got involved in the union to further their own political agenda or to put it on their CV's.
I hope with the new constitution in place that things might change next year. I also think that class reps should only be allowed a MAXIMUM of one year as class rep. I dont think its good for a class to have the same class rep for three years in a row,which is the case for the majority of courses. If noone is elected as a class rep as was the case three years in a row for bigjimthefirst and my year then the deputy president should leave union towers,lecture address the class and make damn sure he doesnt leave the class without a proper elected representative.( I know,I know there's 20,000 students etc etc but as we have seen this year sabbatical offocers have copious time on their hands ) The student union is a grass roots network and if its grass root network isnt working (i.e class reps) then the rest of the union is going to crumble. For the first time in four years last year and this year I think we have a deputy president who actually knows what he's doing.This year was a breath of fresh air in the union with more first year class reps being elected then ever before.Having spent time with a few of these during Dans campaign I saw a friendly,positive and upbeat bunch of first year reps. It contrasted so much with the tired same old worn out faces that Ciaran Weafer had as class reps.(which is hardly suprising with that monstrocity of a freshers guide last year)

Another place where the union fails...comunication. Prettymonster keeps on going on about these meetings that only her and some other bloke turned up too.Did anyone know about these meeting??I certainly didnt see them advertised here or on the UCDSU website.I make it my duty to let everyone here know if there is a world aid soc or med soc event going on,and we are just teeny tiny societys.Why dont the class reps use these forums(theres an events guide sticky at the top of the front page) and the UCD site to tell us these meetings are going on??

I fundamentally agree with a campaigning union.I think it would be a sad day for society if students ceased all activism but It depends what type of activism they are engaging in. I would be one of the first to run down O'Connel street naked in protest to the introduction of fee's and I think most students would too. Fee's is a really important issue that affects most of the students in UCD. However,I think the union shoot themselves in the foot when it comes to campaigns.They just arent effective when we have them day in and day out.Also free fee's ,accomodation and library opening hours etc are all areas that EVERYONE in the college can agree on.No one would like to see the library opened for only 6 hours a day or want to pay fee's. However,the union still seem to campaign vigourously for controversial issues such as anti war,Irish ferrys etc etc.By getting involved in these protest week in and week out it just makes the serious student protest somewhat less effective.And please enough of the 'in solidarity' motions. beining in solidarity with the cuban revolutionarys or Joanne Delaney has absolutley no place in a UCD council meeting and if elected as a class rep next year I can tell you right now I will not spend my time at union meetings discussing sacked dunnes store workers or revolutionary France,and will make that very clear from the word go.

Red Alert wrote:

it would be one thing if everything here was hunky dory but it isn't. libraries, res, computing, modularisation, bars, ents, food provision are all in dire need of campaigning and reform. that will only happen if the union focuses on these issues and forgets about protesting about random stuff.

I think this is what it really boils down to here.So theres 20,000 students and only five sabbats. But this year we have seen the sabbats swannning off and doing completly irrleavant things to what their job suggests. If the students vote for a welfare officer to do a particlular job then I think out of respect to the students who voted them in they should stick to that job. However,this year we have seen the president and education officer inquiring into the pay conditions,wages and working conditions of construction workers....we have seen the education officer putting what Im sure is a lot of time,energy and effort into legal loop holes concerning abortion and legality a few weeks before the summer exams start. And then It annoys me as a student when things like this are said

Vainglory wrote:

We'll see how useful phone chargers in the bar are when they try to bring back fees again, shall we?w

its small things like the phone chargers and the night bus that makes our college day that much easier and better.How does knowing how much joe the builder got paid for last fridays shift help us students??
I dont like this idea of looking down on Jimmy Carroll cos phone chargers arent half as important as the war in Iraq or anti deportation ,and yes in the grand scheme of things its not. But for those 10 or so girls whose battry will die while their in college and have to walk all the way back by themselves in the dark through the clonskeagh gate after the bar shuts it could be a life saver to have their battery charged up again.

So my own opinion....I dont think the union should be just a service provider but that is the way it is heading if people in the union insist on putting columbian coke workers before us.

humbert

The phone chargers are a joke. It's really not difficult to remember to charge your phone before comming to college!
The night bus is a very good idea but I don't think that's in dispute.

panda100

humbert wrote:

The phone chargers are a joke. It's really not difficult to remember to charge your phone before comming to college!
The night bus is a very good idea but I don't think that's in dispute.

Well you would disagree with me ....thats your job!!:) You obviously havent read my post cos you couldnt have read it that quickly..I only put it uo two mins ago

humbert

Yea I did, it went blah blah blah*....phone chargers are great:D

*Only joking, some good su related stuff there.

P.S. how slow do you think I am???