united ireland

thebaz

after 10 years of near peace on our island , will we ever see a United Ireland in our lifetime.
Do boarders care ?
are you republican at heart ?
or are you closet unionists ?

meditraitor

Not likely, anyway there are to many bigots and scumbags from both side of the "Divide " up there, let the british deal with them ,We dont want them!

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

i think it happened in 2200 or so according to star trek, and star trek has'nt been wrong yet

Zulu

thebaz wrote:

after 10 years of near peace on our island , will we ever see a United Ireland in our lifetime.
Do boarders care ?
are you republican at heart ?
or are you closet unionists ?

Let me guess - if you don''t care about seeing a united Ireland you're a closet unionist? :rolleyes:

Thankfully the United States of Europe will sort out all of this eventually.

meditraitor

Mordeth wrote:

i think it happened in 2200 or so according to star trek, and star trek has'nt been wrong yet

Oh no ...... there goes the neighbourhood

Sam Vimes

Mordeth wrote:

i think it happened in 2200 or so according to star trek, and star trek has'nt been wrong yet

apparently they wont show that one anymore. or the one where colm meaney said bollocks

iFight

Mordeth wrote:

star trek has'nt been wrong yet

What other predictions did Star TRek have-never watched it

New_Departure06

I don't expect it in my lifetime, or at least not till near the end of it. I want it to happen though and will vote for it because of patriotism.

zuma

It think it was 2015 or 2016 when Star Trek said Ireland would be united...ha!

Not a hope in hell!!!

For the people of Northern Ireland to vote for a united Ireland would be like Turkeys voteing for christmass as they would loose out massively on benefits which are currently massively subsidised by Londoners/Brummies/Scousers living in the built up areas of England.

I know of many here who disagree with me and many others who dont....
LET THE FIGHTING BEGIN!!!

New_Departure06

zuma wrote:

It think it was 2015 or 2016 when Star Trek said Ireland would be united...ha!

Not a hope in hell!!!

For the people of Northern Ireland to vote for a united Ireland would be like Turkeys voteing for christmass as they would loose out massively on benefits which are currently massively subsidised by Londoners/Brummies/Scousers living in the built up areas of England.

I know of many here who disagree with me and many others who dont....
LET THE FIGHTING BEGIN!!!

On the "benefits" of the subsidies, I don't necessarily accept that premise.

The height of the Brussels largesse to Ireland was in the mid 80's when EU subsidies were equivalent to 9.5% of GNP. We then had 18% unemployment, 25% inflation and 88,000 leaving the country per annum. In NI, many of the students pack up and move to Scotland or England. I have also researched differences in incomes between North and South and between GNP per capita. GNP per capita in the North is $19,900, compared to $34,100 the Republic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Ireland . Regarding wages, in the North the average wage is €25,000 per annum to €28,000 in the Republic and widening.

I do accept that we would have a problem in 2006 and the near future in replacing the UK subsidy. However we cannot rule out that British govt's will reduce it for us, and bring in Thatcher-style free-market reforms in the North to reduce the cost of running it to the State. In that event, and especially with continued economic growth in the Republic, a UI will become economically feasible.

Vulpiner

If a United Irealnd comes about, what are we to do with over one million people who dont want to be part of Ireland? I know people are going to say that theres a large proportion of people in NI who dont want to be under British rule, and that population is increasing yearly. But still, what would you do with that amount of people?

Northen Ireland is supposed to have a disproportionate amount of public service workers compared to Irealnd and the rest of the UK. As regards economic growth that could hinder them.

New_Departure06

Vulpiner wrote:

If a United Irealnd comes about, what are we to do with over one million people who dont want to be part of Ireland? I know people are going to say that theres a large proportion of people in NI who dont want to be under British rule, and that population is increasing yearly. But still, what would you do with that amount of people?

Northen Ireland is supposed to have a disproportionate amount of public service workers compared to Irealnd and the rest of the UK. As regards economic growth that could hinder them.

Wee above for the second point.

On the first, most Unionists say in the polls they would accept the result of a referendum on a UI in the North if it went against them. I would hope that given time, they would come to regard themselves as Irish. I think the education system has a role to play in this. The next generation would be learning Irish history rather than just British history. This would help engender a sense of Irish identity.

shoegirl

thebaz wrote:

after 10 years of near peace on our island , will we ever see a United Ireland in our lifetime.
Do boarders care ?
are you republican at heart ?
or are you closet unionists ?

At the end of the day, its only land. The "United Ireland" slogan is as much a label as "United Kingdom" or "United States" or any other "all inclusive" description.

I am not a republican. I'm no "closet" unionist either. What matters is that we (or anybody else) gets fair and fully democratic government. Whether that happens in the context of a united Ireland, an independent NI or as part of the UK is immaterial as long as the government is fully democratic.

As far as I am concerned "Irishness" is a cultural construction - just as much as English or Britishness is constructed (apparently at least 10% of the supposedly "English" population have DNA that indicates they have French Hugenot ancestry for example). I think a lot of republican ideology owes a lot of its basis to the German revolutionary idealism of 1848 and later Italian revolutionary zeal. It doesn't mean that it is the ideal or only "solution" to a countries border disputes. That said - island nations are particularly prone to culturally based border disputes, given their nature!

I don't see a "United Ireland" in the republican sense for at least a good 40 years, if ever. Mostly people in Ireland don't know exactly what they mean by the words "united Ireland." There is a SF/IRA United Ireland and an FF/FG United Ireland - they are two different things entirely. What may eventually emerge could be entirely different to anything anybody imagined already.

Vulpiner

New_Departure06 wrote:

Wee above for the second point.

On the first, most Unionists say in the polls they would accept the result of a referendum on a UI in the North if it went against them. I would hope that given time, they would come to regard themselves as Irish. I think the education system has a role to play in this. The next generation would be learning Irish history rather than just British history. This would help engender a sense of Irish identity.

Im not sure about them regarding themselves as Irish. They already do, dont they? And yet theyre British as well, almost the way well be with the EU in a few years. In fact, tradionally many Unionists might identify with old Irish legends, with Ulster being seperate from us "men of Erin". In the past Cuchulan, believe it or not, was a sort of mascot for unionism for a time. Irish history may pose problems for many of them. Im not sure whether many would identify with us. Anyway, Im not talking about the more passive types. Loyalists Im thinking of.

If you think about it, the border has actually benefited Republican groups more than Loyalist groups in terms of smuggling, etc. It would have been more beneficial for republicans to maintain it.

shoegirl

New_Departure06 wrote:

On the first, most Unionists say in the polls they would accept the result of a referendum on a UI in the North if it went against them. I would hope that given time, they would come to regard themselves as Irish. I think the education system has a role to play in this. The next generation would be learning Irish history rather than just British history. This would help engender a sense of Irish identity.

Ah but they do see themselves as "Irish" - but as a different kind of "Irish" to what an SF-style republican or an FF-styled republican would consider "Irish."

Cultural identity is not easy to define nor is it something that can simply be taught: see the fate of the irish language as a prime example.

New_Departure06

The CAIN website says that only 3% of Northern Protestants call themselves "Irish".

Before partition, Donegal Protestants were often militantly anti Home Rule and many joined the Old UVF. The situation is transformed now and I think it could be in a UI too.

Vulpiner

New_Departure06 wrote:

The CAIN website says that only 3% of Northern Protestants call themselves "Irish".

Maybe that was a choice between British and "Southern Irish" Irish description? I suppose a certain siege mentality has made their Britishness take pride of place over their Irishness. Ive always thought of them as Irish, but Irish loyal to the crown, like in the rest of the UK.

But that was before partition. Theres been alot of bitterness, since then. I cant see the militant side taking it lying down.

New_Departure06

Vulpiner wrote:

Maybe that was a choice between British and "Southern Irish" Irish description? I suppose a certain siege mentality has made their Britishness take pride of place over their Irishness. Ive always thought of them as Irish, but Irish loyal to the crown, like in the rest of the UK.

LOL "Southern Irish"?

It gave a choice of British, Northern Irish, Irish, Ulster.

Vulpiner

So you think that their Britsihness is a flimsy facade that will rub off with a little Irish history education? I cant see that happening.

I know theyve much to gain from joining the Republic in terms of bringing their economy up to speed, but I cant see it happening in my lifetime. I am a pessimist

New_Departure06

Vulpiner wrote:

So you think that their Britsihness is a flimsy facade that will rub off with a little Irish history education? I cant see that happening.

I know theyve much to gain from joining the Republic in terms of bringing their economy up to speed, but I cant see it happening in my lifetime. I am a pessimist

I think it's based on them centuries of being an elite with more political and other rights than the Catholics. I think that it is also based on a great fear that we are out for revenge on them if we get a UI. I think that when we have a UI, that when former Unionists realise the will be treated as equal citizens, that resistance to the concept of "Irishness" will start to break down. Like it did with border Protestants.

IronMan

thebaz wrote:

after 10 years of near peace on our island , will we ever see a United Ireland in our lifetime.
Do boarders care ?
are you republican at heart ?
or are you closet unionists ?

Not wanting/desiring a united Ireland, does not mean you are not a Republican. If fact many of those who advocate a United Ireland, and who proclaim to be republicans, are so far from Republicans as to be laughable.

I would rather sort out the many problems that exist in the republic, before we decide to take on the massive issues of another area. How do we integrate civil services, postal systems? Do companies registered in the North, become Irish? What leigslation do we use? How do we deal with the massive number of people who work in the public sector in the North. Can we afford to provide support? Do the majority of NI citizens actually want to be part of the Republic? These and hundreds of more practical questions need to be answered kids.

New_Departure06

IronMan wrote:

Not wanting/desiring a united Ireland, does not mean you are not a Republican. If fact many of those who advocate a United Ireland, and who proclaim to be republicans, are so far from Republicans as to be laughable.

It doe make you a non-republican in terms of the ideology called "Irish Republicanism".

I would rather sort out the many problems that exist in the republic, before we decide to take on the massive issues of another area. How do we integrate civil services, postal systems? Do companies registered in the North, become Irish? What leigslation do we use? How do we deal with the massive number of people who work in the public sector in the North. Can we afford to provide support? Do the majority of NI citizens actually want to be part of the Republic? These and hundreds of more practical questions need to be answered kids.

I agree that a UI cannot be a priority in the short-term and not at all until a majority in the North and South vote for it. However, I think that some of the issues you refer to there could be resolved in the context of future North-South bodies. On the public-sector point, remember that one of the main reasons why the North has such a large-public-sector is because during the Troubles, multinationals were very difficult to persuade to go there. Hopefully with the end of the Troubles that will change and there will no longer be the same need for the British to plough 5 billion into it each year.

IronMan

New_Departure06 wrote:

It doe make you a non-republican in terms of the ideology called "Irish Republicanism".

I'm Irish and I'm a republican, in that I adhere to the principles of a republic. I'm an Irish Republican. Yet I totally abhor Sinn Fein criminality, economic policy, and their recent history. This is the group that seem to have taken a strangle-hold on the meaning of Irish Republicanism. To me their links to crime, their refusal to condemn murders and their blinkered view of their past, more equates to fundamentalist nationalism. The fact that they wrap this in a veil of 70's style socialism, is only a means to an end, as it builds a ground swell of support amongst the young, the middle class Che Guevara t-shirt wears, and other with this short-sighted view of what it means to be Irish, to be European in the 21st century. It wouldn’t be the first time that far right nationalism was mixed in the pot with some leftist economic policies.

SeanW

I don't expect there to be a United Ireland any time soon. Maybe in my lifetime, but even that looks dodgy.

In the back of my mind I'm always hoping it will happen some day, and if there was a referendum tomorrow, I'd vote in favour.

The_Minister

What episode did star trek mention the reunification in?

thebaz

i think partition will only go if it makes financial sense or in a United Europe. In the Celtic Tiger 2006, i don't think people want anything that rocks the boat, financially. If partition was removed and we were under threat, specifically Dublin, from Loyalist bombs , no one would want it , House prices rocketing down etc etc. , as well as fear of life. After ceasefire , I can identify more with Irish Republicanism, and can see the day when we have President Gery Adams. I think Sinn Fein will need to brush up on there economic agenda , to get into government though.

Mucco

What's the point of a United Ireland?

Dirk Gently

Mordeth wrote:

i think it happened in 2200 or so according to star trek, and star trek has'nt been wrong yet

Was it not 2020? Commander data is never wrong. Unless the Borg go back in time and assimilate the DUP, oh **** wait............ never, never, never!
Ulster resistance is futile!

Dirk Gently

Firespinner wrote:

What episode did star trek mention the reunification in?

cant remember which one but data was going on one of his rants about earth history and he mentioed it. Since that eposide a whole generation of provos became trekkies, hence Sinn Feins policies for socialist federation type society as opposed to ferengi capitalism.

murphaph

Wow, a two page thread on partition that hasn't descended into a slagging match. I'm impressed with you lot!

As for me, well I'd reiterate a couple of points made already. What's the point in a united Ireland, and so long as everyone gets a vote in their own place, it's all good.

NI's economy today is a basket case. They estimate it's heading towards 50% of GNP that is dependent on public spending. This would need to be changed before any thought of a UI could be countenanced for our own economy's sake.

The points about the prods up north 'realising' their irishness with a bit of irish education (that sounded quite scary, like programming or something!) is very optimistic. I recently watched a documentary on BBC1 NI about the border. They interviewed people all along it about what it meant to them. They were in the town of Drum in Monaghan, interviewing protestants on the 12th. They were born and bred in the area but still felt british. You can't airbrush such people away. They ARE british if they say they're british and that will always be difficult to reconcile, unless we move closer to the United Kingdom ourselves, some sort of federation of the isles or something. It isn't that crazy-our legal systems are essentially the same (precedent based on common law, like most former empire nations, as opposed to the constitutional systems used across the continent). So how would people feel about greater involvement in the United Kingdom? Perhaps a republic or Great Britain & Ireland (I mean, the monarchy could be abolished or anything by then!)???

zuma

clown bag wrote:

Was it not 2020? Commander data is never wrong. Unless the Borg go back in time and assimilate the DUP, oh **** wait............ never, never, never!
Ulster resistance is futile!

The reunification of Ireland.

http://scifi.about.com/library/weekly/aa101899.htm

1997
Comet Hale-Bop returns.
Pathfinder Probe lands on Mars

2001
Enterprise premieres.
Terrorists crash planes into World Trade Center.

2020
Nomad is launched.

2024
Reunification of Ireland is achieved.
The Bell Riots break out.

2030
Zephram Cochrane born.

2036
The New United Nations is formed.

Second Reference:
http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~hwloidl/ST-Timeline.html

Google is great:cool:

zuma

murphaph wrote:

Wow, a two page thread on partition that hasn't descended into a slagging match. I'm impressed with you lot!

As for me, well I'd reiterate a couple of points made already. What's the point in a united Ireland, and so long as everyone gets a vote in their own place, it's all good.

NI's economy today is a basket case. They estimate it's heading towards 50% of GNP that is dependent on public spending. This would need to be changed before any thought of a UI could be countenanced for our own economy's sake.

The points about the prods up north 'realising' their irishness with a bit of irish education (that sounded quite scary, like programming or something!) is very optimistic. I recently watched a documentary on BBC1 NI about the border. They interviewed people all along it about what it meant to them. They were in the town of Drum in Monaghan, interviewing protestants on the 12th. They were born and bred in the area but still felt british. You can't airbrush such people away. They ARE british if they say they're british and that will always be difficult to reconcile, unless we move closer to the United Kingdom ourselves, some sort of federation of the isles or something. It isn't that crazy-our legal systems are essentially the same (precedent based on common law, like most former empire nations, as opposed to the constitutional systems used across the continent). So how would people feel about greater involvement in the United Kingdom? Perhaps a republic or Great Britain & Ireland (I mean, the monarchy could be abolished or anything by then!)???

As long as their economy is MASSIVELY subsidised by the Uk government there isnt a hope in hell that Ireland could manage it!

Until NI sorts of their very scary problems then this "United Ireland" idea is just that an idea.

Im perfectly happy to see NI as a constituent part of the UK as it cant survice on its own and it cant survive attached to Ireland.

As pointed out in a previous post their average wage is slightly lower than ours.....but their production value is 2/3rds of our....which means a huge amount of government jobs to stabilise the exonomy.

New_Departure06

zuma wrote:

As long as their economy is MASSIVELY subsidised by the Uk government there isnt a hope in hell that Ireland could manage it!

Until NI sorts of their very scary problems then this "United Ireland" idea is just that an idea.

Im perfectly happy to see NI as a constituent part of the UK as it cant survice on its own and it cant survive attached to Ireland.

As pointed out in a previous post their average wage is slightly lower than ours.....but their production value is 2/3rds of our....which means a huge amount of government jobs to stabilise the exonomy.

I don't think it'll stay massively subsidised by the UK in the long run. I am not happy at all with partition. This is part of the Irish homeland and while accepting the principle of consent, consider partition to be a transitory phase on the road to a United Ireland. I also consider that the NI statelet has less legitimacy on moral grounds that the Republic and will never change my mind.

zuma

New_Departure06 wrote:

I don't think it'll stay massively subsidised by the UK in the long run.

It has been hugely subsidised for well over a generation!
As I said before it would be like turkeys voteing for christmass!

New_Departure06 wrote:

I am not happy at all with partition. This is part of the Irish homeland and while accepting the principle of consent, consider partition to be a transitory phase on the road to a United Ireland.

Partition is here to stay Im afraid and I'll probable die before said partition is ever erased from what you call your homeland...Im 24!

This is one hell of a long transition...the 360KM long border has been there for over 80 years....~4 generations...and has existed in the minds of many Unionists for much longer.

Just as much as you consider yourself the embodyment of Irishness people like Ian Paisley consider themsleves the cradle of Britishness and NOTHING will change the attitude of such people....especially since their standard of living will strop significantly if ever a United Ireland is created!

New_Departure06

It has been hugely subsidised for well over a generation!
As I said before it would be like turkeys voteing for christmass!

But a lot of that was because of the Troubles which are hopefully fading away.

zuma

New_Departure06 wrote:

But a lot of that was because of the Troubles which are hopefully fading away.

By troubles I assume you mean the "Civil War" because that what it would have been called if it happened in Africa/South America!

We all know that the hatred wont disappear once the bombs stop going off....it took generations for the bickering to stop and still continues in the more rural areas....ours ended in the early 1920's!
And remember our civil war was nice and quick...lasting only ~1 year(too lazy to check wikipedia) the NI equiv lasted 30 years!!!

oscarBravo

New_Departure06 wrote:

I ... will never change my mind.

See, there's the point at which any remote possibility of me taking you seriously spontaneously evaporated. I can't think of any subject on which I can genuinely say that I will never change my mind.

Hell, I don't think I can even think of a subject on which I haven't changed my mind at some point.

darkman2

It appears the North has alot to gain from a UI and weve got alot to lose in economic terms. The North is a failed entity in many ways but particularly economically. 6 billion a year subsidy from the British. They would LOVE to offload that burden on us. The truth of the matter is though that the south gets richer by the day and tbh the 'we cant afford it' argument is wearing thin. So I dunno, proceed or not to proceed. Maybe joint sovereignty is closer then we think.

Street Byte

On the question of a United Ireland I can sum up my opion in 2 words - no thankyou.

We have a hard enough time dealing with our own criminal element without importing the Norths head bangers. The issue of recognising "Ulster Scots" as a minority is one I won't even dare (or care) to contemplate.

NI needs another 25 years to get its act together. Ask me then and I might care to see it happen - but I doubt it.

zuma

darkman2 wrote:

It appears the North has alot to gain from a UI and weve got alot to lose in economic terms. The North is a failed entity in many ways but particularly economically. 6 billion a year subsidy from the British. They would LOVE to offload that burden on us. The truth of the matter is though that the south gets richer by the day and tbh the 'we cant afford it' argument is wearing thin. So I dunno, proceed or not to proceed. Maybe joint sovereignty is closer then we think.

Earthman actually made a good point as he/(it?...haha) locked a similar thread stateing that the EU will ultimately have to pay for the creation of a UI in mabye 50 or 100 years....using mostly British monies I assume!

Is this 6 Billion EURO or STERLING(~€10,000,000,000 !!!!!!!)

catholicireland

What's the point of a United Ireland?

Well, if you havent noticed, our Irish Catholic brothers up in the north are still being ruled by a foreign power.

murphaph

catholicireland wrote:

Well, if you havent noticed, our Irish Catholic brothers up in the north are still being ruled by a foreign power.

They know where the border with a more prosperous nation is if they hate the yoke of oppression that much. Something tells me they are happy enough though

zuma

catholicireland wrote:

Well, if you havent noticed, our Irish Catholic brothers up in the north are still being ruled by a foreign power.

Im not sure if youve noticed or not but people put down they are Catholic on those census forms because they were baptised catholic and not because they are a practising catholics.

If you did a more in depth survey you would find that the Irish disagree with a lot of the Catholic teachings....then again given your nick Im sure your couldnt give a toss!

New_Departure06

The reunification of the national territory is something which - while only achievable by consent - is a moral imperative.

murphaph

New_Departure06 wrote:

The reunification of the national territory is something which - while only achievable by consent - is a moral imperative.

Sorry, but that last bit doesn't actually make any sense to me. Maybe if you defined moral imperative it'd help me understand. I don't think morals come into this. If a majority (of both parts of this island in independent referenda) want NI to become part of the RoI then, even though I don't think it's in anyone's interests etc. I'd accept it as it is the democratic will of the peoples. I recognise that you are a democrat too and wouldn't force your beliefs on anyone but I still don't get the 'moral imperative' bit. An imperative implies urgency and use of the word 'moral' suggests this to be the 'right' course of action, when that may not be the case.

catholicireland

catholicireland wrote:

Well, if you havent noticed, our Irish Catholic brothers up in the north are still being ruled by a foreign power.

I'm sure the Brits would be delighted that you regard them as a power

New_Departure06

murphaph wrote:

Sorry, but that last bit doesn't actually make any sense to me. Maybe if you defined moral imperative it'd help me understand. I don't think morals come into this. If a majority (of both parts of this island in independent referenda) want NI to become part of the RoI then, even though I don't think it's in anyone's interests etc. I'd accept it as it is the democratic will of the peoples. I recognise that you are a democrat too and wouldn't force your beliefs on anyone but I still don't get the 'moral imperative' bit. An imperative implies urgency and use of the word 'moral' suggests this to be the 'right' course of action, when that may not be the case.

It is the national homeland of the Irish people since time immemorial. It is ours and Britain is simply looking after it for us until both parts of the island are ready for it to be returned to the Irish nation.

murphaph

New_Departure06 wrote:

It is the national homeland of the Irish people since time immemorial. It is ours and Britain is simply looking after it for us until both parts of the island are ready for it to be returned to the Irish nation.

Hmmm, but surely it's the homeland of whoever actually lives there?

oscarBravo

New_Departure06 wrote:

It is ours...

It's not mine.

darkman2

zuma wrote:

Earthman actually made a good point as he/(it?...haha) locked a similar thread stateing that the EU will ultimately have to pay for the creation of a UI in mabye 50 or 100 years....using mostly British monies I assume!

Is this 6 Billion EURO or STERLING(~€10,000,000,000 !!!!!!!)

6 - 7 billion sterling. I know I find it hard to get to grips with the amount of sponging thats obviously going on. The truth is they can all f**k around up there and the British will bail them out. A sad existence but thats the type of ppl were dealing with:(

billy the squid

Firespinner wrote:

What episode did star trek mention the reunification in?

firstly to answer this question. The date was 2024, and the episode was The High Ground. Banned on RTE and BBC, Sky showed an edited version of the episode

keep an eye on Channel 6 as it should be coming up in a couple of months on that channel

now to answer the question of the OP.

No I do not see a united Ireland happening within my lifetime. There is too much hatred going on up there between the two communities. The people down south are content to make money. They look more to brussels than to Belfast. Uniting Ireland would put a strain on our economy, what with the addition of a bloated civil service, and a population of disgruntled unionists.

To be hones, both sides nationalist and unionists need to grow up before they would be welcomed by me into a united ireland. The republican movement needs to get its disadents under control, they need to convince them that their peurile view on the Northern Ireland question is flawed.

The Unionists need to stop trying to be ultra brittish. Even the brittish "on the mainland" don't carry on the way they do.