More horror stories about BT Broadband...

Gandalf23

My BT broadband just stopped working about 2 months ago. It took almost 3 weeks to sort the problem out... this involved literally hours on the phone to BT tech support, visits by Eircom to check my line, various BT people promising to phone me back and NEVER phoning, broken promises, high levels of incompetence from BT tech support / BT customer services, and general BT indifference to my problem.

The problem eventually got fixed, and although it was never explained to me what the exact problem was, it was definitely something BT did when my package was being downgraded from 3mb to 2mb (one of the tech support guys told me this during one of my many calls during that period).

I have also been trying to get some sort of bill for about the last year. I was on the phone for over an hour last Thursday and 45 minutes today. I eventually got access to the online bill system, but surprise surprise, no details of my bill were available online.

I also told customer services that I have no intention of paying for the 3 weeks I had no service, and the reply was that "BT could not guarantee that a credit would be available for this break in service". The BT customer service person promised to "look into it" and call me back when she had more info. I'm not holding my breath...

Now I know from other threads that this is to be expected from BT, but I am still absolutely stunned at the level of contempt that BT treat their customers with. This is totally unacceptable in a "first world" country like Ireland, and I can only shudder to think how someone less experienced and less willing to fight would be treated (I have a Masters degree in computer type stuff and do a lot of work in web development etc so I hope I know what I'm talking about here).

I was just wondering if anyone has any contacts within BT or other advice that might be useful to me. I only want a bill and not to be charged for the time my service was down... I don’t think that’s unreasonable.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated...

kaizersoze

Change providers.

Gandalf23

kaizersoze wrote:

Change providers.

That is definately an option and I will if I get charged for the 3 weeks I had no service.

One of the reasons I posted this thread was to let people know what they will be getting into if they subscribe to BT broadband.

Part of what is wrong with his country is people accepting crap like this without trying to do anything about it. I'm convinced that BT's "customer suport" strategy (an oxymoron if ever there was one!!!) is to just tell customers what they want to hear but actually do NOTHING, in the hope that the customer will eventually get so p1ssed off that they just wont phone back again.

dub45

There are loads of similear threads if you do a search.

Sponge Bob

there is a whole website with its own discussion board called www.btireland-sucks-donkeys.com , no less and yet they still cannot be shamed into a proper CS and Billing system

nearlyhappy

kaizersoze wrote:

Change providers.

As I've previously mentioned here, the legacy of my billing is incredible in its amatureishness

I'd love to change providers but I prefer having broadband and fantasy bills, rather than having no broadband and fantasy bills.

As I'm sure BT would f##k up a changeover to such an extent as to ensure I couldnt work for a month....

They really are a bunch of eejits...

Nh

Gandalf23

dub45 wrote:

There are loads of similear threads if you do a search.

I have just been reading a few of them and I'm getting more p1ssed off by the minute. Seriously, how can BT get away with this?

Gandalf23

nearlyhappy wrote:

I'd love to change providers but I prefer having broadband and fantasy bills, rather than having no broadband and fantasy bills.

As I'm sure BT would f##k up a changeover to such an extent as to ensure I couldnt work for a month....

This is probably the main thing stopping me from changing providers... I know it'll be a nightmare, not to mention the running between BT and Eircom and my new provider for a few months.

All I'm looking for is an accurate bill. A shagging BILL!!!!!

This is getting beyond a joke. I depend on broadband for my work and it costs me real money when its not working. It also costs me real money when I have to spens a few hours (literally!!!) on the phone every week trying to sort this crap out.

/rant over for now... /

Sapele

A reasonable company could and should fix this minor problem promptly by billing you correctly and on time and not charging you for a service you did not receive. Unfortunately BT is not a reasonable company. So it may well happen that when you are eventually billed you will be overcharged, you will then be even more angry than now, you will become even more agitated when it becomes obvious they have no intention of factoring the 3 weeks into your already incorrect bill.

This might be an option for you: cancel your BT DD with your bank, explaining the situation to a reasonably senior manager of the bank. Impress on this bank employee that you will be very disappointed with the bank if they allow BT to take money against your express wishes citing BT's often abuse of the DD system. So disappointed that you will insist they pull the money back for you. When you eventually get a call from BT's credit control dept telling you your account with them is in the red, pay them the correct amount minus the 3 weeks by cheque. I would advise you not to reactivate your DD with BT, as they are so incompetent they may well DD you the amount you have just paid by cheque. I've heard it mentioned on boards that BT will accept payments from billpay.ie, or you could just continue to pay them by manual cheque

Gandalf23

Sapele wrote:

A reasonable company could and should fix this minor problem promptly by billing you correctly and on time and not charging you for a service you did not receive. Unfortunately BT is not a reasonable company. So it may well happen that when you are eventually billed you will be overcharged, you will then be even more angry than now, you will become even more agitated when it becomes obvious they have no intention of factoring the 3 weeks into your already incorrect bill.

This might be an option for you: cancel your BT DD with your bank, explaining the situation to a reasonably senior manager of the bank. Impress on this bank employee that you will be very disappointed with the bank if they allow BT to take money against your express wishes citing BT's often abuse of the DD system. So disappointed that you will insist they pull the money back for you. When you eventually get a call from BT's credit control dept telling you your account with them is in the red, pay them the correct amount minus the 3 weeks by cheque. I would advise you not to reactivate your DD with BT, as they are so incompetent they may well DD you the amount you have just paid by cheque. I've heard it mentioned on boards that BT will accept payments from billpay.ie, or you could just continue to pay them by manual cheque

Yes... thats not a bad idea, and it might come to that. I know my bank manager well so there should be no problem doing exactly what you describe.

I just wish I could see my bill / account so that I could figure out exactly what I'm being charged for and relevant dates etc. I'm fairly sure that BT require payment in advance. Can anyone confirm this? I'd love to know, but cant get a straight answer from BT and cant access my bill...

/feel blood pressure rising again.../

nearlyhappy

I've accepted the fact I'm never going to billed correctly so heres what I'm gonna do:

They have ignored me, so I'm going to ignore them...


I've calculated what I owe them, which isnt hard....50 euro installation + x months broadband at 20 euro (i mite get a job in billing after that)

So I'll pay that by cheque...

Then every 2 months I'll send em a cheque for 40 euro...

I'll ignore the bills which dont mean anything and have an extra 5 hours every billing time I usually spend on the phone to muppets...

Happy days...

And if they do cut me off because of one of the fantasy bills (please do) I'll change providers then as the downtime will be the same anyway.

And I'll drag it out as long as I can till we get to court, which should go something like this:

Judge: Mr ####, how much do you owe BT?
Me: Ammm, nothing your honor, I have the installation date and cheque stubs to prove it.
Judge: BT, is this correct?
BT: Ammm, yes your honor, we actually looked at his account with our eyes this morning and it seems he is correct. He owes us nothing, never has.
Judge: I see, then why are we in court wasting everyones time?
BT: Ammmm, you see.....well.....the thing is....Karen thought she was handleing it, but she sent it to Mary, who sent it to tech support, who ignored it, but it arrived on Toms desk and he forgot about it and then he left so it went to credit control by mistake who were emailing someone in Bulgaria about it wondering why they couldnt understand Mr ##### and they got fed up and sent it to the collection agency who grabbed it like the proverbial bull and would not believe Mr ##### when he told them what I'm telling you now...
Judge: I dont blame them...
BT: Well yes so you see its not really our fault...:)
Judge: Excuse me while I disembowel myself....



NH

DonkeyStyle \o/

Gandalf23 wrote:

This is probably the main thing stopping me from changing providers... I know it'll be a nightmare

Well if you can stand going back to 56k for a few weeks, it's not so bad.
You can experience the thrill of going from 56k to broadband all over again
I recently experienced this again myself... first few hours are great, then it wears off and you take broadband for granted again.

parsi

nearlyhappy wrote:

I've accepted the fact I'm never going to billed correctly so heres what I'm gonna do:

They have ignored me, so I'm going to ignore them...


I've calculated what I owe them, which isnt hard....50 euro installation + x months broadband at 20 euro (i mite get a job in billing after that)

So I'll pay that by cheque...

Then every 2 months I'll send em a cheque for 40 euro...

I'll ignore the bills which dont mean anything and have an extra 5 hours every billing time I usually spend on the phone to muppets...

I used that strategy with Chorus. I worked out the daily rate and each month I'd pay for the number of days that I had Chorus. They used send me late-fees and underpaid-fees and I'd just ingnore them and they eventually went away. Anytime they got really snotty I'd remind them of the time that the falsified my sign up documents and my credit card. That used shut them up.

MunsterCycling

Lol

Sapele

nearlyhappy wrote:

BT: Ammmm, you see.....well.....the thing is....Karen thought she was handleing it, but she sent it to Mary, who sent it to tech support, who ignored it, but it arrived on Toms desk and he forgot about it and then he left so it went to credit control by mistake who were emailing someone in Bulgaria about it wondering why they couldnt understand Mr ##### and they got fed up and sent it to the collection agency who grabbed it like the proverbial bull and would not believe Mr ##### when he told them what I'm telling you now... NH

lol, that’s probably not far from the truth sometimes

CuLT

Gandalf23 wrote:

I depend on broadband for my work and it costs me real money when its not working. It also costs me real money when I have to spens a few hours (literally!!!) on the phone every week trying to sort this crap out.

If you're losing "real money" by not having broadband then maybe you should actually invest in a business level product.

For anyone who can be defined as a "home user", time without broadband is nothing more than an inconvenience.

That's why business users get business packages, with service level agreements.

I'm sorry, I just have no pity for people who rant on and on about how they're "losing business" when they're too cheapskate to dish out the extra cash for business broadband.

Sure, if my IBB (home user) connection goes down for a day or two (as it did recently), I'm not going to be over the moon about it, but I'm sure as hell not going to blather about how I'm losing business either. If I expected an SLA I'd have paid for it.

That's not to say that you're out of line complaining about this, 3 weeks without BB that you're paying for is not acceptable, but don't tag on "I'm losing business".

nearlyhappy

CuLT wrote:

If you're losing "real money" by not having broadband then maybe you should actually invest in a business level product.

WOW ! If only I had know that if I had opted for a business package I could be guaranteed top level service !!!!!

I would get correct bills
I would get helpful cust service
I would get uninterrupted access
I would not have to worry about missing business specific heavy emails that wont come down on dial-up

Thats what your saying.....right?


NH

Sponge Bob

nearlyhappy wrote:

WOW ! If only I had know that if I had opted for a business package I could be guaranteed top level service !!!!!

BT Business BB is suppied form 40 exchanges nationwide and comes with no service level agreement ( SLA) that I know of althoug hI was told they will fix in 5 days max.

This is not resold eircom bitstream, the DSL gear in those exchanges belongs to BT.

I am not aware of any clear SLA on any form of DSL in this country be it eircom bitstream or magnet LLU or bt LLU or smart LLU ....them being all there is.

To get an SLA you need a leased line or an SDSL line which will cost a lot more than ADSL . If Comreg were any good they would try to produce a standard SLA for all DSL operators ....but Comreg are useless.

I usually advise people to get a Digiweb Metro or an NTL cable connection as a backup if they really cannot do without their DSL for more than 8 hours .

Gandalf23

CuLT wrote:

If you're losing "real money" by not having broadband then maybe you should actually invest in a business level product.

For anyone who can be defined as a "home user", time without broadband is nothing more than an inconvenience.

This is complete nonsense. To say that a home user suffers "mere inconvenience" if BB goes down is a laughable comment.

CuLT wrote:

That's why business users get business packages, with service level agreements.

I refer you to Sponge Bob's answer above. Also, I live in an area that has limited choice of BB providers.

CuLT wrote:

I'm sorry, I just have no pity for people who rant on and on about how they're "losing business" when they're too cheapskate to dish out the extra cash for business broadband.

I refer you to nearlyhappy's answer above. Am I wrong to expect a half decent service from my humble home user package, with courteous knowledgeable customer reps who have the ability to answer simple questions and deal with simple requests? Or should I get this only after paying through the nose for this wonderful "business level package" you speak of? My sincerest apologies for expecting a half decent level of service...

CuLT wrote:

Sure, if my IBB (home user) connection goes down for a day or two (as it did recently), I'm not going to be over the moon about it, but I'm sure as hell not going to blather about how I'm losing business either. If I expected an SLA I'd have paid for it.

You seem to be missing the whole point of this. I have a few examples of people with these fantastic BT "business level packages" you speak of with their brilliant SLA's and they are having similar problems to me.

CuLT you have made some very unfair and ignorant comments. A little understanding and knowledge of the subject and how BT ACTUALLY operate in practice would be very useful the next time you are tempted to contribute to a thread you clearly know nothing about.

Gandalf23

nearlyhappy wrote:

WOW ! If only I had know that if I had opted for a business package I could be guaranteed top level service !!!!!

I would get correct bills
I would get helpful cust service
I would get uninterrupted access
I would not have to worry about missing business specific heavy emails that wont come down on dial-up

Thats what your saying.....right?

Exactly. Well said.

Gandalf23

Sponge Bob wrote:

BT Business BB is suppied form 40 exchanges nationwide and comes with no service level agreement ( SLA) that I know of althoug hI was told they will fix in 5 days max.

This is not resold eircom bitstream, the DSL gear in those exchanges belongs to BT.

I am not aware of any clear SLA on any form of DSL in this country be it eircom bitstream or magnet LLU or bt LLU or smart LLU ....them being all there is.

To get an SLA you need a leased line or an SDSL line which will cost a lot more than ADSL . If Comreg were any good they would try to produce a standard SLA for all DSL operators ....but Comreg are useless.

I usually advise people to get a Digiweb Metro or an NTL cable connection as a backup if they really cannot do without their DSL for more than 8 hours .

I have just been talking (again... original problem about billing in my first post still unresolved) and the BT customer service rep informed me that she knew nothing about BT "business level " SLA. I asked her to enquire further and she came back within about 10 minutes saying she could find no information on any SLA's BT have for business users.

bobbysands

Thanks for all the info on BT broadband I was literally about to sign up to BT broadband until I read your posting.

I will definitely not now be signing up with BT.

It seems like BT and Irish Broadband went to the same School of Inadequate Service.

nearlyhappy

bobbysands wrote:

Thanks for all the info on BT broadband I was literally about to sign up to BT broadband until I read your posting.

I will definitely not now be signing up with BT.

It seems like BT and Irish Broadband went to the same School of Inadequate Service.

1 soul saved !!!

Halleluja !!!


Nh

Gandalf23

bobbysands wrote:

Thanks for all the info on BT broadband I was literally about to sign up to BT broadband until I read your posting.

I will definitely not now be signing up with BT.

It seems like BT and Irish Broadband went to the same School of Inadequate Service.

And BT got first class honours in the PhD class...

CuLT

Gandalf23 wrote:

This is complete nonsense. To say that a home user suffers "mere inconvenience" if BB goes down is a laughable comment.

Laugh away, it's still just an inconvenience. Unless you're an irate 15 year old who can't take part in his latest clan match. Oh the humanity.

I refer you to Sponge Bob's answer above. Also, I live in an area that has limited choice of BB providers.

<- Look, you can see a real tear in my eye.

I refer you to nearlyhappy's answer above. Am I wrong to expect a half decent service from my humble home user package, with courteous knowledgeable customer reps who have the ability to answer simple questions and deal with simple requests? Or should I get this only after paying through the nose for this wonderful "business level package" you speak of? My sincerest apologies for expecting a half decent level of service...

Again, a real tear.

You seem to be missing the whole point of this. I have a few examples of people with these fantastic BT "business level packages" you speak of with their brilliant SLA's and they are having similar problems to me.

I don't recall specifying BT business products anywhere in my replies, I said "a business level service".
BT do have SLAs with their business customers in any case, I hardly think Google would have a service from BT if there was no turnaround time on problems.

Yeah, I'm sure you know people with business packages with "similar" problems, Gandalf-The-Vague.

Eircom are the same, they have service level agreements for several of their products.

Maybe you should call the business customer care for information on business products, residential care probably don't have a clue.

Just a thought.

CuLT you have made some very unfair and ignorant comments. A little understanding and knowledge of the subject and how BT ACTUALLY operate in practice would be very useful the next time you are tempted to contribute to a thread you clearly know nothing about.

Heh. You haven't a notion of how things work, so don't preach at me.

It's clear you just want to moan anyway, so go ahead, I'll not bother you're little corner of slef-pity further.

Gandalf23

CuLT wrote:

Laugh away, it's still just an inconvenience. Unless you're an irate 15 year old who can't take part in his latest clan match. Oh the humanity.

Or a student trying to access University email or submit a project on time, or my friend currently doing his PhD who has to drive approximately 5 hours to UCD and back through horrendious traffic when his BB goes down, or someone attempting to work from home for the day, etc, etc, etc, etc...

Oh the humanity indeed...

CuLT wrote:

Look, you can see a real tear in my eye.

A classy and intelligent response.

CuLT wrote:

I don't recall specifying BT business products anywhere in my replies, I said "a business level service".
BT do have SLAs with their business customers in any case, I hardly think Google would have a service from BT if there was no turnaround time on problems.

I'm not sure what you were "specifying" to be honest. If you can suggest a specific "business level service" to suit me I'm all ears. I'm sure your suggestion(s) will be as high class and worthwhile as your other contributions to this thread. I await the wonderful knowledge that is bound to be forthcoming from the lips of the all knowling CuLT... taking account of the fact that the you have no idea of where I live, what BB products are on offer to me, what my BB requirements are, what my work involves, my online patterns of usage, etc, etc, etc.

Also I'd be very eager to see one of these SLA's you talk so much about. Could you provide a link and prove you are not all mouth and no action? Doubtful methinks. You seem to have indepth knowledge of the contents of the mysterious BT SLA (much more knowledge infact than any of the many many BT employees I have spoken to). Maybe YOU are a secret BT employee defending your beloved company !!! Own up now CuLTyboy... do you work for the great evil one?

CuLT wrote:

Yeah, I'm sure you know people with business packages with "similar" problems, Gandalf-The-Vague.

Oh I see what you've done. You've taken "Gandalf the Grey" from the Lord of the Rings trilogy and used that to make a clever play on my name. "Gandalf the Vague". Thats very good. Very funny. Ahem...

I think it would be very unfair to mention third parties in this thread who are having problems with BT. Suffice it to say that I do know many people who have problems with BT's business level products, and people reading this can make up thier own mind on how honest I'm being on this.

CuLT wrote:

Eircom are the same, they have service level agreements for several of their products.

This is a thread on BT... if you read the title its fairly clear. Try reading it very s l o w l y ... that might help you to understand what we are talking about.

CuLT wrote:

Maybe you should call the business customer care for information on business products, residential care probably don't have a clue.

Waste of time... they dont have a clue either. I have personal experience of this from working with a variety of my clients. As far as I know there is a common customer services department, because I'm begining to get to know a number of the tech support and customer service people by name... I get through to the SAME people whether its my own humble home user package or a clients business package. Again CuLT my dear boy, you have shown your ignorance and lack of knowledge on this one.

CuLT wrote:

Heh. You haven't a notion of how things work, so don't preach at me.

I am prepared (with great confidence) to let the readers of this thread make up thier own minds which of us has not a notion.

CuLT wrote:

It's clear you just want to moan anyway, so go ahead, I'll not bother you're little corner of slef-pity further.

You're damn right I'm going to moan. I'm sick of bad service and big companies ripping me off and treating customers like crap. I hope my contributions to a numer of threads in this forum has convinced some people not to give their custom to BT. This is the only way to deal with these companies. Unfortunately its people with your attitude that encourages these companied think they can provide substandard service, shockingly bad customer care, and a general attitude that they couldnt give a crap about the customer. Its not self pity.. its fighting back, and in my very humble opinion we need a lot more of it !!

To borrow a famous phrase (from the movie "Network" 1976 ... check it out CuLT, you'll enjoy it... the lead character reminds me very much of myself), and I'm paraphrasing here, "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this crap anymore".

Oh and, bye bye CuLT... I'm going to miss you and your sparkling wit and razor sharp banter... not to mention how you have contributed so positively to this thread... so many useful suggestions and comments to help the masses of beleaguered BT customers. Next time you contribute to a thread make sure you know what you are talking about and have something positive (or at least vaguely constructive) to contribute.

Gandalf23

I have to admit I cant see the logic of some "silly Cu*T" diving into the middle of a thread like this when they have absolutely nothing to contribute. Annoying and confrontational. Anyway, he says he's gone now so hopefully he'll be true to his word (but I somehow doubt it... nothing else he's said has been accurate, so that probably wont be either).

OK back to business... an update on my situation with BT and my bill. After another 40 minute conversation with the lovely Jane fron BT customer services today, I was informed that a fault with my online billing system would have to be logged with Global, and that it would take 3 working days to fix. This, after the lovely Donal logged the SAME fault (which didnt appear on Janes system) yesterday and assured me that it would be fixed within 9 working hours. This after the lovely Debbie logged the SAME fault Monday and assured me she would phone me back within an hour with my billing problems solved. She didnt phone back btw... big shock there !!!

I'm expecting the next lovely customer services rep to log the SAME fault again Friday and inform me that it will take approximately 37 working weeks to fix my problem !!!

I insisted that Jane log all this information on her system, and I made her read it all back to me. I also insisted that she send me two emails... which she agreed to do... first a copy of the log she just entered on her system detailing my complaints and her promised response within 3 working days, and second my last few months billing informan in outline form (she had this because she quoted my last few bill amounts to me during our conversation. I was very clear on this... I wanted these emails and I gave her two reliable email addresses. Did I get any emails from Jane... did I fcuk !!!

Truly a bunch of silly Cu*T's indeed...

DonkeyStyle \o/

Wow, this is getting ugly. :eek:
tbh I think CulT was taking the view of the ISP, where by you don't have a leg to stand on RE: loss of earnings... I'm pretty sure that's covered in the TOS.
So as far as you losing money from downtime, it's tough-titties for you, and you should have thought of that earlier (yadda yadda).
Service level agreements are pretty common for businesses where downtime = major operational disruption.

From my own experience, it's the same thing if you buy a consumer-level PC... their tech support aren't responsible for saving your yearly accounts or your address book of important business contacts... so should the only option to fix your PC be a reformat; it's up to you to find a way to back up your files... and the company has no obligation in this area.

It sucks, but that's just the way it is... if you want guarentees, you've gotta pay for them.

Though I agree that BTs support is seriously lacking, even for a consumer level package, and "minor inconvenience" or not, they've got some serious support problems... you made a point about losing business, and you were taken up on it... and on that front I agree with CulT, you're not paying for 99% uptime, so don't even go there.

I'm with you on a lot of this stuff though, we accept too much shítty treatment for a service we're paying good money for... after having dealt with the EsatBT brick-wall of silence, I cancelled my account with them... sure, I spent a few weeks without net access, but the thought of handing over another penny to these clowns made my skin crawl.

Sponge Bob

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote:

you're not paying for 99% uptime, so don't even go there.

SLAs, this is a bit crude but fairly accurate and ex VAT

1 Mbit Leased Line in Galway , €1500 a month , 1 day out a year SLA
1 Mbit SDSL in Galway €300 a month , 3 days out a year
1 Mbit ADSL in Galway €30 a month , up to 5 days out per outage

Sponge sez get 2 or 3 of the cheap packages , including one wireless one, for €100 a month and hope the outages do not co-incide. Thats the cute hoors SLA if you will or maybe I'll christen it the Kerrymans SLA !

Any company in Galway that NEEDS ADSL all the time should have a Digiweb Metro as well, no JCB will cut through it and it will cost them €360 a year ex VAT

Gandalf23

Ok, the first thing I want to say here is that I am sick and tired of idiots jumping into the middle of threads with deliberatly confrontational comments that are unhelpful and are guaranteed to get a response (not you Donkey Style). There is far too much of that on boards recently, and there is no need for it. In my opinion there are contributors to this thread that could have tempered their comments and still made a reasonable point. I am tired of flame wars... why cant we all just get along?

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote:

From my own experience, it's the same thing if you buy a consumer-level PC... their tech support aren't responsible for saving your yearly accounts or your address book of important business contacts... so should the only option to fix your PC be a reformat; it's up to you to find a way to back up your files... and the company has no obligation in this area.

With respect, this is not the same argument. To use your example, I would be very p*ssed off if I bought an accounting package (eg TasBooks, Sage, etc) and due to inadequacies IN THAT PARTICULAR PACKAGE that were as a result of the incompetency of the company that developed and/or installed the software, I lost valuable data that was going to cost time and money to recover. I would be even more p*issed off if I phoned TasBooks / SAGE customer support and had to spend literally hours on the phone to a bunch of morons who were incapible of understanding even the most basic issues.

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote:

It sucks, but that's just the way it is... if you want guarentees, you've gotta pay for them.

Not quiet true. The "Sale of Goods" act states that any goods / services sold must be of "merchantable quality", and customers are legally entitled to a bill.

You are making reasonable points, but again with respect this is not the issue here. It is a basic entitlement that a customer should be able to expect a reasonable "guarantee" that he be provided with a bill in a timely manner, the bill be correct, and that if inaccuracies exist that they be corrected within a reasonable time and without having to go through the hell (described in many threads here) that is BT customer service / tech support. You should not have to pay extra for this. The leglislation in the "Sale of Goods" act enshrines principles such as these in law. There are also various other bits and bobs of leglislation (including the ComREG stuff) that support the rights of the customer in matters like this.

The problem is that BT know that most customers wont go down this legalistic route... their whole customer relations policy is predicated on this principle as far as I can see. It's easier to just battle BT customer support for a few weeks and hope against hope for some sort of resolution. I refer you to some of the active threads on this forum.

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote:

Though I agree that BTs support is seriously lacking, even for a consumer level package, and "minor inconvenience" or not, they've got some serious support problems... you made a point about losing business, and you were taken up on it... and on that front I agree with CulT, you're not paying for 99% uptime, so don't even go there.

Can you point out anywhere I said I wanted 99% uptime?... I'm not naive enough to expect that from ANY provider. However, I am paying for a service of "merchantable quality", and to be honest I do expect a service that actually works and where problems are fixed within a reasonable time. What I wont accept (and what I am "moaning" about) is that my downtime was as a direct result of BT incompetence in downgrading me from 3mb to 2mb... I thought I had explained this in my first post. BT have admitted that it was 100% their fault, and if you were to apply the exact letter of the law, my opinion is that I would have a strong case for compensation. I am NOT complaining about normal reasonable expected levels of downtime. I am complaining about paying for a service that was not supplied because of errors made by the supplying organisation. Legally I'm on solid ground here.

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote:

I'm with you on a lot of this stuff though, we accept too much shítty treatment for a service we're paying good money for... after having dealt with the EsatBT brick-wall of silence, I cancelled my account with them... sure, I spent a few weeks without net access, but the thought of handing over another penny to these clowns made my skin crawl.

Thanks... a few people have PM'd me saying they agree with what I'm saying (and how I'm saying it). I think you are making rasonable comments, and I admire what you did. I'm going to do the same. I'm cancelling my DD tomorrow... I'll just wait to see what BT do then.

DonkeyStyle \o/

Gandalf23 wrote:

and if you were to apply the exact letter of the law, my opinion is that I would have a strong case for compensation.

Well, I'm not a lawyer, and can't get my hands on the EsatBT terms of service right now, but I'm pretty sure they've got a clause where you agree that they're not liable for your loss of earnings or any other damages.
...if that's what you ment by 'compensation'.
How this fits in with your basic consumer rights; I've no idea... but it's something to keep in mind.

Not quiet true. The "Sale of Goods" act states that any goods / services sold must be of "merchantable quality", and customers are legally entitled to a bill.

Well yeah, the phrase fit for the intended purpose springs to mind, but you have to ask yourself if the intended purpose of a non-business DSL product is to run your business off of it.

Though being billed for a period where you couldn't recieve the service... I had the same crap when I cancelled... my final bill included at least 2 weeks after I'd already been disconnected... seems it's BTs policy not to refund these horse-shít charges :rolleyes: ... which made me all the more glad to be rid of them.

Anyway, I'll leave all this legal talk well alone before I get completely out of my depth and resort to talking out of my hole.

Gandalf23

This is from the "Office of the Director of Consumer Affairs" website, and quoted from the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act, 1980.

Taken directly from the ODCA site, in relation to the supply of services...

"The consumer is entitled to expect:

1) That the supplier has the necessary skill to provide the service.
2) That the service will be provided with proper care and diligence
3) That materials used will be sound and that goods supplied as part of the service will be of merchantable quality.

If a service is unsatisfactory the consumer may be entitled to some remedy or compensation. A lot will depend on the circumstances of the case. However, consumer rights do not apply to services in every one. In certain circumstances the suppliers of services can limit their responsibilities to consumer through exclusion clauses provided the exclusions are specifically brought to the consumers attention and are fair and reasonable.

The essential steps to consumer rights.

1) Complain to the person (the shop or the business) who sold the goods or the service.
2) Act promptly and reasonably: delay could result in a loss of rights
3) As a first step the consumer must be able to establish that the goods or service in question were bought from or were provided by the seller in question, e.g. through the production of a receipt or other form of proof of purchase. [Put simply, the consumer who is making the complaint must be able to show convincingly, as a necessary first step to having their rights vindicated, that they bought the goods where they say they bought them]."

Some points...
1. I was never made aware of any exclusion clauses by BT. I have checked my contract carefully... there are none in the contract I have on my desk right now. I never signed or agreed to any other TOS from BT.
2. I have complained consistently to BT in a timely and reasonable manner.
3. I currently have no means of proving I have any service from BT (with the exception of my CC statement. I have never received anything from BT and have NO access to the online billing system.

Gandalf23

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote:

The phrase fit for the intended purpose springs to mind, but you have to ask yourself if the intended purpose of a non-business DSL product is to run your business off of it.

It should not matter exactly how I was using the service or product as long as my usage was reasonable (eg, not running a spamming / bittorrent / porn etc service). No where in my BT contract does it say that business related work may not be carried out, and nowhere does it say in the contract or on the BT BB website that the service offered to me is unsuitable for business use.

For over 3 weeks it was not fit for anything be it home or business use because it was not working specifically as a result of BT's incompetence, and BT have admitted to this.

This is a very fine line here you are drawing Donkey... how would you define what "business" usage is... would you consider someone checking work email from home as using BB for "business purposes"? What about someone accessing a work related VPN from home? Home video conferencing? Tweaking the company website at the weekend? Using VoIP to contact a co-worker or client? I'm not sure how you would administer this, and to be honest even BT must know that even their most basic BB package will be used for some work related stuff.

I would suggest that most people would use BB for a mix of personal and work.

DonkeyStyle \o/

There's a difference between using your connection for "business purposes" and "your business absolutely depending on the availability of the connection".
I think it's fair to say most home users aren't losing big bucks every time their connection isn't working.

Gandalf23

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote:

There's a difference between using your connection for "business purposes" and "your business absolutely depending on the availability of the connection".
I think it's fair to say most home users aren't losing big bucks every time their connection isn't working.

I have not said that my "business absolutely depends on the availability of the BB connection", and I have not said that I am losing "big bucks". Both of the statements you quote are false.

DonkeyStyle \o/

I didn't quote both statements you mention. Your assertion that I did is false.

Gandalf23

What was the purpose of your "quotation marks" then? Were you quoting someone else?

leche solara

If you have no proof of getting a service from BT (i.e a bill) then you have no need to pay. Just cancel the direct debit, walk away and take your business elsewhere. You can deny ever having the service, as surely you would have been billed if you did, and if they're anything like the muppets you make out, they probably won't have a record either.

Gandalf23

leche solara wrote:

If you have no proof of getting a service from BT (i.e a bill) then you have no need to pay. Just cancel the direct debit, walk away and take your business elsewhere. You can deny ever having the service, as surely you would have been billed if you did, and if they're anything like the muppets you make out, they probably won't have a record either.

Thats probably what I'll do to be honest.

I'm fairly sure the lack of a bill wont stop BT attempting to charge me. BT's policy seems to be to charge as much as possible and let the customer sort things out if the charge is incorrect. People here have been charged even after they have cancelled thier BB and DD.

DonkeyStyle \o/

Gandalf23 wrote:

What was the purpose of your "quotation marks" then?

Those weren't quotation marks, they were East Asian corner brackets... I was writing vertically.
I know you are, but what am I?
/me wraps up pedantic pissing-contest and exits stage left

nearlyhappy

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote:

/me wraps up pedantic pissing-contest and exits stage left

Aaaaa dont, I was enjoying it !

nH

Gandalf23

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote:

Those weren't quotation marks, they were East Asian corner brackets... I was writing vertically.
I know you are, but what am I?
/me wraps up pedantic pissing-contest and exits stage left

I bow to your knowledge of punctuation and East Asia

And I agree with you again... its a real pity that this thread has turned into a "pedantic pissing-contest" when its obvious that some people here have a genuine problem. I think its fair to say that most of us who currently find ourselves in this God-awful mess with BT are only looking for good advice and a way to solve our problems.

Gandalf23

I was assured by BT last Wednesday that I would have access to my online BT bill today (explained above). Anyone like to guess what happened when I logged in? Nothing... no bill, no information... nothing.

After another 45 minutes on the phone to BT customer services I was told that my technical problem with online billing was now being "accelerated" with BT global services in London. This apparently means that BT are going to give it "priority" now. Ha!!! The customer service rep (Donal) said my problem should be fixed sometime around the middle of next week. Hands up all who think this will be resolved next week? How about sometime next year? Any takers? Anyone?

At this point in the phonecall I was fairly unhappy (putting it mildly). I insisted that I be issued with some sort of bill immediatly. After another ten minutes of squabbling I got the attached "bill" by email. As you can see its in excel and even though it gives a breakdown of what I'm being charged and relevant dates, it says BT nowhere on the bill. It also doesnt say my name, address, phone number, or account number anywhere on the bill.

Now, maybe I'm being unreasonable, but this is just not good enough. A huge multi-national company cant do better than issue a poorly designed bill in excel. That is truly shocking in my opinion.

I immediatly phoned my bank and cancelled my DD to BT. The bank agreed to do this immediatly. As far as I'm concerned BT can now go screw themselves... I'm outa there for good. Next step is a registered letter to BT HQ explaining that I wish to terminate my contract from today, and if I dont get a refund/credit for the 3 weeks I was without service, or if BT EVEN ATTEMPT to take any money from my account I'll spend every waking hour fighting them.

This is truly shocking stuff, and open to abuse in my humble opinion. I have spent about 5 hours on the phone to BT last week alone trying to get something I am legally entitled to.

Good riddance, and if this cautionary tale has even made one person think twice about going with BT its been worth it.

/Edit... spreadsheet originally attached removed/

nearlyhappy

Dude...the spreadsheet properties...



Nh

Gandalf23

nearlyhappy wrote:

Dude...the spreadsheet properties...

Yep... edited post to remove the spreadsheet... Its been a long day...

Thanks nh

nearlyhappy

Gandalf23 wrote:

Yep... edited post to revove the spreadsheet. Its been a long day...

Thanks nh

No worries but I'm keepin the email address that was in there


Nh

Sapele

Gandalf23 wrote:

Now, maybe I'm being unreasonable, but this is just not good enough. A huge multi-national company cant do better than issue a poorly designed bill in excel. That is truly shocking in my opinion.

No you're not being unreasonable at all. I've never experienced anything remotely like BT before. They are truly shocking in their behaviour. It’s really a sad reflection of regulation in this country that companies like BT can operate at all. It's no accident that so many BT customers have the same tale to tell, it's BT policy -- I have no doubt. As Dub45 once said, it's only massive public embarrassment that will have an effect. Especially since regulation has so badly failed us. They can basically almost do as they wish

Gandalf23

Sapele wrote:

No you're not being unreasonable at all. I've never experienced anything remotely like BT before. They are truly shocking in their behaviour. It’s really a sad reflection of regulation in this country that companies like BT can operate at all. It's no accident that so many BT customers have the same tale to tell, it's BT policy -- I have no doubt. As Dub45 once said, it's only massive public embarrassment that will have an effect. Especially since regulation has so badly failed us. They can basically almost do as they wish

Well said ... exactly how I feel about it.

Gandalf23

nearlyhappy wrote:

No worries but I'm keepin the email address that was in there


Nh

Dub47

Gandalf I completely agree with you. I have spent the last 2 hours sending angry emails to BT after getting no response from all of my dozens of phone calls and conversations. I was so annoyed I did a search to see if others were getting screwed by BT like i am and i found this thread.

to sum it up i switched from eircom (who seemed bad until i experienced BT - eircom seem like saints now) to BT to get broadband and line rental. after numerous delays and screw ups during the switch over process they then put us on the wrong (lower) broadband package and it took over a month for them to put us on the right broadband package. then they screwed up again and put us on talk plus which we never ordered.

i signed up for online billing and signed a direct debit form. my first two bills were online (although i received no emails notifying me of them as i was supposed to) and i was overcharged on both. i called numerous times to complain and was told i would receive a credit on my next bill. funny, i've never received a bill since and that was november! also they have not taken anything by direct debit. at first i figured great we'll just see when they cop on and bill me but i eventually rang and was told someone would get back to me. then i received a bill from their legal credit control department demanding 469 euro and telling me they would pursue legal action if i didn't pay!!!! what???? these freaks had my direct debit details. unbelievable. and what's worse is that that amount was way more than what i would have owed - it was more than twice what i would have owed over the months i wasn't charged and they'd never credited me the money they owed me.

so i started ringing loads trying to sort it out with no helpful reponses from them. it turns out they were double charging us as they had us listed as receiving 2 SEPARATE BROADBAND packages which is impossible to have! so they were in the wrong again and said it would be sorted out. that was 4 months ago and i've rung and spoken to so many damn people there i don't know what else to do. i was promised 2 months ago that a manager would ring me back within 48 hours at the most to address the issue. guess what? i'm still waiting for that call.

i rang ComReg and asked for advice and they said to threaten BT with a formal complaint so i did. they promised that they would credit my account back and that my online billing would be updated. again, no such luck. i have spoken with technical support numerous times who also can't do their jobs and they keep promising that within 2 days my new bill will be online. bollox - months later and nothing!

do these gimps even want to be paid? what kind of circus are they running there? i honestly have never had this much disgust and contempt for any company in my life. i am appalled at their incompetence. you ring and are on hold for hours and the one time i chose their 'call back' option where you just leave your number and they phone you back when you would have reached top of the queue, they rang me back 45 minutes later and...no joke...immediately put me on hold again!!!!!

please see below the letter i just sent to all their departments:

to:customer service/technical support/complaints department:

i have rung customer service so many times about this that it is actually absurd. i cannot believe i have to chase BT to try and pay a bill? crazy. anyway, i signed up for broadband and line rental last year and for a few months my bills were correct and uploaded on your online website for me to see and paid automatically by direct debit (i was overcharged) that i signed up for. then something happened and they weren't there and then i was double charged for numerous months. i have rung so many times that i'm sick of it. last i was told i owe about 26 euro after money was credited back but they cannot seem to manage to bill me for this or have this updated on my online account. everytime i log in there is still not an updated bill and if i click to pay a bill it is still incorrect. also if i click to 'log a fault' i am told that i have no products with BT so i cannot log a fault.

what is going on? surely after 4 months someone could sort this out. this is a joke and i shouldn't have to pay anything because of all the time and energy i have wasted pursuing this with no follow up or effort from BT. i am still waiting 2 months later for a call from a manager in BT to sort this out when i was told the call would come in 48 hours. again, what a joke.

is there anyone competent in BT that can actually comprehend this simple yet annoying situation and sort it out?

i want someone to call me ASAP about this as i am not calling again and waiting in a queue all day only to be told "your database is down" and someone will call me back when it's back up to help me. hhhmmm, 7 days later and no call? so your database was down for a week? right, sure.

please sort out someone with A. authority and B. a clue to call me and sort this out. I have already been on to ComReg who have advised me to make a formal complaint. I am also looking into the statute of limitations on billing and how long something has to drag on before i actually won't be responsible for paying you anything.

read my file and you'll see why i'm so p*ssed off. my home phone number is 01 xxx xxxx
i am sorry if you, the person reading this, have to take all this in but i am at the end of my wire here. it's not your fault personally but your company is a joke and the customer service and technical support are appalling.

i am sending this to all departments in BT and I want to lodge a formal complaint as recommended by ComReg. I will also have no hesitation in continuing to follow this at a higher level. I will also ensure that I recommend anyone i know to steer clear of BT if this is what we are to expect.

Please have a manager call me ASAP. I can't take this anymore. Pretend this was a company treating you this way and think how you would feel.

Awaiting an urgent response,

Gandalf23

Hi lollyflashpants (love the name!!!)... welcome to boards. Sorry it's under these circumstances.

The truly shocking thing is that I am not even slightly surprised by your post. I doubt if anyone else frequenting this forum is either.