Intoxicated in a public place

corkman9

Hello All,

Unsure if I should this forum or personal issues and I hope I am not breaking rules looking for opinion and not legal advice, I will seek a solicitor for advice as soon as I can find one in the coming days.

Basically after a company paid night with a free bar I got very very drunk. Ended up leaving colleagues to go home and that is my last memory until I was found by Guards on the street asleep, only have vague memory of being brought to the station and the time after that. When asked for my name and address I just couldn't remember my address even though I knew I had to answer as they were saying that I would be going in front of a Judge that night if I didn't answer, I had moved into rented place 6 months before and due to intoxication I just couldn't recall but was asking for some more time to recover from my confused state to answer. Eventually the Garda used my mobile phone to wake my partner up to get my address and be picked up. I apologised to the Guards on the desk when leaving as I was more sober at this stage but the Garda making the accusations was not there at that time.

That was October last year, never been in any trouble before with Guards (28 yeards old) and got a summons Friday in letterbox for the District Court for offenses of being 'present in said public place while intoxicated to such an extent as would give rise to a reasonable apprehension that you might endanger yourself or any other person in your vicinity' and 'did FAIL/REFUSE to give your name and address to Garda xx when demanded by the said member'.

I am guilty of both these offenses, no argument there and really learned my lesson and will never get drunk again. Questions I had are where should I go to get a list of solicitors for legal advice about this, I will ring Citizens Information tomorrow morning for a possible list. Also does anyone think it is a foregone conclusion that I will have a criminal record after being found guilty of these offenses, is there any chance that I will escape this by paying large fine or be given chance to make payment to charity? Worried about impact on career as need to travel to US on occasion or if checks are done in the future if I move company. The case is at the end of this month. I would welcome any opinion.

Many Thanks

hullaballoo

Just for future posters, this thread is ok, and there is no risk of banning.

OP, well done, you obviously read the charter. I'm studying for my exams so I can't take the time to give you a response, but I wish you the best of luck.

Our man in Havana

Would it not be a reasonable defence to the failure to give name/address that you were still intoxicated to an extent you were still incapable of understanding the request? They could have simply waited till you have sobered up enough and then asked you.

If you plead guilty to the charge of public intoxication it is likely the second charge will be struck out by a reasonable judge. Be remorseful and you will be fine.

corkman9

Thanks for the responses, the truth is that I did understand the request for address but still wasn't sober enough to give an answer, afraid it came across as trying to hide it as the Garda was getting pretty annoyed with me, was given chance to give parents family home address when I said I was from Cork but unfortunately they moved to Spain so that wasn't something I could remember at the time either. This all happened in Dublin City and living around Dun Laoghaire past 5 years.

DublinWriter

corkman9 wrote:

is there any chance that I will escape this by paying large fine or be given chance to make payment to charity?

Nope. You'd need to be found guilty of said charges in order to make an offer like that.

You've two basic options:

a) instruct your solicitor to find you a hot-shot Barrister, not expense spared, who could probably get the charges dropped on a small point of law. Cost: anywhere from 5K to 20K.

b) Suck it down and accept your guilt.

hullaballoo

It would seem that if you represent yourself properly at what will be a summary hearing, you will escape without a criminal record.

I'd imagine a hefty fine/donation to charity would be about all you can expect. That clean record will stand to you and if you tell the truth, you should escape lightly. Do talk to your solicitor though, I'm sure he will affirm that you have little to worry about. It's only the District court, it's a completely different ball-game to the Circuit court.

You probably should plead guilty though.

corkman9

I will definitely talk to a solicitor, need to find one first as never had a need before this. Plan to plead guilty and tell the truth (as much as I can remember of the night) and hope that I do end up without a criminal record. Not really got the money to afford the 5K+ barrister option but interesting that there possibily could be some small point of law that could get someone off in case like this if you had the cash.

Thanks for the replies, I'm feeling a little better now before heading off to bed.

Sangre

Don't think intoxication is ever a defence for anything because its self induced.

Turner

Sangre wrote:

Don't think intoxication is ever a defence for anything because its self induced.

Very true.

Same as ignorance to the law, its no defence.

Sangre

Well it can be for very specific offences afaik.

maidhc

Chief--- wrote:

Same as ignorance to the law, its no defence.

Its a bit more nuanced than that, although in general self induced intoxication isnt a defence and innocent intoxication is.

I think it could be a valid defence in this circumstances, due to the fact the individual was senseless and couldn't even remember where his parents lived. he didn't commit a crime as such. He did absolutely nothing but acted drunk.

How about double jeopardy?

dermot_sheehan

Sangre wrote:

Don't think intoxication is ever a defence for anything because its self induced.

R v. Majewski (not sure of spelling), intoxication is a defence to crimes of specific intent (e.g. murder, forgery with intent to defraud) where you are so intoxicated you can not form specific intent so you did not commit the offence (remember mens rea must be proved beyond reasonable doubt for an offence).

For crimes of basic intent (e.g. manslaughter, assault) the mens rea is intent or recklessness, intoxication is not a defence in this circumstance as it can be argued you were reckless in getting drunk

hullaballoo

Sangre wrote:

Don't think intoxication is ever a defence for anything because its self induced.

Intoxication cannot be a defence when the offence is intoxication:

OP wrote:

That was October last year, never been in any trouble before with Guards (28 yeards old) and got a summons Friday in letterbox for the District Court for offenses of being 'present in said public place while intoxicated to such an extent as would give rise to a reasonable apprehension that you might endanger yourself or any other person in your vicinity' and 'did FAIL/REFUSE to give your name and address to Garda xx when demanded by the said member'.

maidhc

hullaballoo wrote:

Intoxication cannot be a defence when the offence is intoxication:

There are two offences here though, I think people are referring to the second.

It seems wrong to charge him for failing to do something he at the time was physically incapable of doing.

Sangre

I clearly wasn't talking about that part of it!

Very true about Majewski. I can't believe I've forgotten such basic stuff in 2 years. Thats what cramming gets you!

Eru

corkman9 wrote:

I will definitely talk to a solicitor, need to find one first as never had a need before this. Plan to plead guilty and tell the truth (as much as I can remember of the night) and hope that I do end up without a criminal record. Not really got the money to afford the 5K+ barrister option but interesting that there possibily could be some small point of law that could get someone off in case like this if you had the cash.

Thanks for the replies, I'm feeling a little better now before heading off to bed.

OK, time for my opinion, for starters dont listen to these hacks!

Seriously, relax. Your 28 years old and never arrested bofore, your not a hardened criminal by any stretch and the guy that arrested knew that. Personally I think S4 is a pile of ****e but thats another days problem.

Find the Garda on the morning of the court or better yet, get in touch in advance. Explain to him that you just simple could not get your head around the situation because of your state and then apologise. Ask him would he be willing to drop the name and address part, chances are he will unless hes being a prick or you were being a prick to him on the night.

On that basis, please guilty, hold your hands up and apologise to the court for wasting their time. Then the judge will ask the Garda a few basics. Are you known, have previous, did you apologise, etc. When the judge is happy you will get a fine and probation which means you have a slap on the wrist and no record. Then try too be more sensible in future (which I presume this incident will have thought you anyway) and just put it behind you.

I will be completely honest now, a solicitor is off no use to you as they will cost more than the fine and in reality, probable wont get you off.

This isnt written in stone, this is just my opinion based on experience and should not be taken as anything other than that.

Our man in Havana

I agree that solicitors for very minor offenses are a waste of time and money.

Exon

Man, you got arrested for being drunk. I have seen people up over alot worse than that and got a slap on the wrist. I don't even think you will get a fine for your first offence, maybe just bound to the peace?

corkman9

Well the Garda is a she, pretty annoyed that I wouldn't/couldn't answer about address and the sorry state I was in but apart from that didn't do anything else to annoy her. I said sorry to two guards on the desk but she wasn't around at the time of leaving so don't think that she will be saying to the judge I apologised to her and I would of thought if I did it now it would only be looked at as doing it late because I got the summons.

Regarding solicitor, I wasn't looking to get off but just some advice about how to represent myself.

I wouldn't recognise her for sure before the court exept for vague details about hair colour and height and I would be wary of getting in touch in advance, I know one Garda through a friend so maybe I will ask him for advice about the direct approach.

Thanks again for all the opinion.

Degsy

Best thing to do is to hold your hands up,say i did it,i was bladdered it was out of character and i very much regert the incident.No previous convictions and you dint use violence or upset the guards the chances are the judge will deal with it under the probabtion of offenders act which basicly means you walk away.Its not worth paying for a solicitor and sometimes they might make the situation worse if the judge takes a dislike to them or the way they're pitching your case.It might be a good idea to bring a hundered quid in with you to make a donation to the court poor box.On the whole,i wouldnt worry about it but make sur eyou carry yourself properly when the judhge asks have you anything to say for yourslf.

corkman9

Thanks Degsy and all. Does the judge give you the chance to give money into the court poor box by suggesting it or do you make this offer yourself at some point?

I will of course express my regret everything about the night and wasting courts time as well as the Guards. Before I posted here I was looking on a website where it stated fine for first offense of intoxication was up to 1500 euro and I couldn't find anything about the not giving address, thought there was a good chance that both combined meant that it would be a minor criminal record as guilty.

Might write a letter to the Garda carefully in the next couple of days just to say sorry to her before the day itself.

eirebhoy

corkman9 wrote:

Questions I had are where should I go to get a list of solicitors for legal advice about this, I will ring Citizens Information tomorrow morning for a possible list. Also does anyone think it is a foregone conclusion that I will have a criminal record after being found guilty of these offenses, is there any chance that I will escape this by paying large fine or be given chance to make payment to charity? Worried about impact on career as need to travel to US on occasion or if checks are done in the future if I move company. The case is at the end of this month. I would welcome any opinion.

Many Thanks

When a person is in court over something like this they'll be asked for their plea. When that is given the judge will ask if you want legal aid. If the answer is yes then you will most likely get a new court date and the court will assign one of the solicitors in court that day. A meeting is arranged with the solicitor and the solicitor does most of the talking in court the next time you are up. A fine will be the most likely outcome and it can either be paid there and then or the judge will give you a date to re-appear and pay the fine.

As other's have said, a solicitor is your own choice but for an offence like this there probably is no point in paying for one.

Sophistikid

corkman9 wrote:

Hello All,

Unsure if I should this forum or personal issues and I hope I am not breaking rules looking for opinion and not legal advice, I will seek a solicitor for advice as soon as I can find one in the coming days.

Basically after a company paid night with a free bar I got very very drunk. Ended up leaving colleagues to go home and that is my last memory until I was found by Guards on the street asleep, only have vague memory of being brought to the station and the time after that. When asked for my name and address I just couldn't remember my address even though I knew I had to answer as they were saying that I would be going in front of a Judge that night if I didn't answer, I had moved into rented place 6 months before and due to intoxication I just couldn't recall but was asking for some more time to recover from my confused state to answer. Eventually the Garda used my mobile phone to wake my partner up to get my address and be picked up. I apologised to the Guards on the desk when leaving as I was more sober at this stage but the Garda making the accusations was not there at that time.

That was October last year, never been in any trouble before with Guards (28 yeards old) and got a summons Friday in letterbox for the District Court for offenses of being 'present in said public place while intoxicated to such an extent as would give rise to a reasonable apprehension that you might endanger yourself or any other person in your vicinity' and 'did FAIL/REFUSE to give your name and address to Garda xx when demanded by the said member'.

I am guilty of both these offenses, no argument there and really learned my lesson and will never get drunk again. Questions I had are where should I go to get a list of solicitors for legal advice about this, I will ring Citizens Information tomorrow morning for a possible list. Also does anyone think it is a foregone conclusion that I will have a criminal record after being found guilty of these offenses, is there any chance that I will escape this by paying large fine or be given chance to make payment to charity? Worried about impact on career as need to travel to US on occasion or if checks are done in the future if I move company. The case is at the end of this month. I would welcome any opinion.

Many Thanks

I actually thought you were a friend of mine when I read your post as the same situation happened to him at about the same date. It is'nt but...my friend was up on front of the court last week, got fined 200 euro for the garda benelovent fund and a slap on the wrist..if its your first offence, relax it'll be cool..just be very sorry for your offence. Good luck

bacon&cabbage

A similar thing happened me a few years ago - failure to comply with a garda, intoxicated in a public place.:eek:

I would advise getting a solicitor though, if you are not used to a courtroom and it's procedures it can be a very intimidating place.
Visit the Garda in question and apologise to him - really be genuine and mean it.
It goes without saying but dress your best on the day and stand when your case is called, you will probably be in the middle of a courtroom full of scumbags etc so you will stand out among all the tracksuits etc...!

I was given the probation act (bound to the peace for a year) and a €100 donation to the poor box. The solicitor cost another €500 but no record and like you I didn't care about the costs as long as I didn't get a permanent record.

For me it was lesson learnt and I can honestly say I have never been drunk since.:)

eirebhoy

bacon&cabbage wrote:

A similar thing happened me a few years ago - failure to comply with a garda, intoxicated in a public place.:eek:

I would advise getting a solicitor though, if you are not used to a courtroom and it's procedures it can be a very intimidating place.
Visit the Garda in question and apologise to him - really be genuine and mean it.
It goes without saying but dress your best on the day and stand when your case is called, you will probably be in the middle of a courtroom full of scumbags etc so you will stand out among all the tracksuits etc...!

I was given the probation act (bound to the peace for a year) and a €100 donation to the poor box. The solicitor cost another €500 but no record and like you I didn't care about the costs as long as I didn't get a permanent record.

For me it was lesson learnt and I can honestly say I have never been drunk since.:)

Why would you pay a solicitor €500 just to save you from being intimidated in front of a judge for 60 seconds? It's a petty charge and unless I qualified for free legal aid I would not get a solicitor.

Our man in Havana

I seriously doubt you would get legal aid for such a charge.

DublinWriter

eirebhoy wrote:

Why would you pay a solicitor €500 just to save you from being intimidated in front of a judge for 60 seconds? It's a petty charge and unless I qualified for free legal aid I would not get a solicitor.

You really don't want a criminal record following you around for the rest of your working life, do you?

Most companies will do background checks on you with the guards before employing.

In that sitution you need all the help you can get.

muffler

Im just going to throw my tuppence worth in.

The judge will most likely ask if you apologised for the incident so you would be well advised to go to the Garda and apologise and do it sooner rather than later.

As to the question of being represented by a solicitor or not well all I can tell you that the judges in Donegal take a rather dim view of anyone appearing in court without legal representation. I would advise getting your solicitor into court with you. Whatever amount you are fined with a solicitor in attendance will most likely be trebled if you dont have one there so the saving there will pay a good slice of the solicitors fee.

If you are serious about the other issues (travel abroad etc) then get a solicitor. A lot of money to pay for a 2 minute appearance in court but it will save you a lot of trouble further down the road.

good luck with it

Esel

I think it might help your case to mention the fact that it was a company party with a free bar. Maybe people handed you drinks, spirits that you were not used to, a pint with a vodka in it? Main point is to let the judge know this was not normal behaviour for you.

Best of luck anyway. Look on the bright side - at least you were not run over while lying in the middle of a dark street!

zuutroy

esel wrote:

I think it might help your case to mention the fact that it was a company party with a free bar. Maybe people handed you drinks, spirits that you were not used to, a pint with a vodka in it? Main point is to let the judge know this was not normal behaviour for you.

I'd advise against that. The judges have heard it all and won't lend any weight to that. A mate of mine got wasted and threw a traffic cone through a car window. He was given a €200 donation and had to pay for the windscreen. Get a solicitor. It'll make things a lot smoother. I'd say you'll get out of the whole thing for less than €1000 (inc solicitor) with no record.

corkman9

Decided to go with solicitor after considering representing myself, to escape without a criminal record is more important to me than the costs even if it is unlikely that this would happen without one. Have meeting with solicitor early next week and will see what he recommends about leaving in and out regarding details.

Called into the Garda station myself to say I would like to apologise personally to the Garda involved and my number and name was taken to pass on the message. No word back in 3 days so going to write a polite letter asking the same and hopefully will get a chance to apologise in person.

popebenny16

Ok, first I am glad that you got a solicitor so you can get the best representation in this. Also, no-one can thhink I'm trying to talk you into getting one and as you have one I'm not going to make any specific comments about your case.

Anyway...... The public order act is one of the most dractonian pieces of legislation ever to have been enacted in this state. When you put into statute that a guards resonable opinion is a barometer for what is or is not an offence under the act you are simple asking for three-stripe wannabees going out and making a rep for themselves.

Sadly, there are plenty of judges who will simply listen to a guard no matter what. That's what appeals are for.

Excpetion: I have seen one judge in particular who delights in telling guards after they have given their evidence that they have not demonstrated any public order offence. EG I saw one lad in court on a POA for sitting on a wall. That was it. Visiting judge (lucky lad) threw it out. However, the guards knew, I knew and the lad knew that the regular judge would have convicted him.

There's a lesson there. No matter how correct you feel at the time, if you have drink on you, and Sherrif Beauford T. Redneck starts ordering you around - do what he says. Chances are it'll cost you a Circuit Appeal to correct everything. Sorry I'm cynical, but there you are.

Eru

I would hate to see what this country would look like on a Saturday night without the Public order Act 1994.

Basically Pope what your saying is you think its OK to threaten, insult and/or abuse people? When found doing these things you think its Ok to refuse to give a Garda your name and/or tell them to go **** themselves?

I do however fail to see how sitting on a wall is a crime unless the owner had/was intimidated in some way.

Bond,
Your entitled to legal aid no matter how small the charge. Its one of the most basic rights within the system.

popebenny16

Nope, what I'm saying is that if people who have drink on them did the simple thing - calm down, take one deep breath and take aone sobering moment - a lot of public order offences would never be committed.

If you do commit them - goodbye!

popebenny16

Nope, what I'm saying is that if people who have drink on them did the simple thing - calm down, take one deep breath and take aone sobering moment - a lot of public order offences would never be committed.

If you do commit them - goodbye!

muffler

I dont think the last couple of posts are offering much advice to corkman9 with his problem

Eru

muffler wrote:

I dont think the last couple of posts are offering much advice to corkman9 with his problem

We arent supposed to offer legal advice.

Our man in Havana

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

Bond,
Your entitled to legal aid no matter how small the charge. Its one of the most basic rights within the system.

I know that they won't give legal aid for motoring offences.

popebenny16

Bond,
Your entitled to legal aid no matter how small the charge. Its one of the most basic rights within the system.

Wrong. Under the Criminal Legal Aid scheme you are entitled to legal aid for criminal matters if you have insufficient means to employ a Solicitor. You have to prove this, usualy, by showing that you are on Social Welfare. It will not apply to motoring offences with the exception of Dangerous Driving Causing Death as they are not catergorised as criminal offences.

The Legal Aid Board provides subsidised representation in Family Law and Immigration issues however you must undergo a means teat and you will have to pay something, it's a sliding scale of contribution.

Lastly the is the AG's scheme, which is designed to assist Judicial Reviews/Constitutional issues and also can be applied for in Cases Stated.

That's it.

Our man in Havana

I thought that legal aid was automatically granted in "case stated" situations?

popebenny16

Usually you already have the legal aid if you meet the means test. You can state a case in a civil case as well as a criminal one. You get the AG's scheme for cases stated, which is a form of legal aid but not on a statutory basis and you must ask for it at the earliest opportuinity.

eirebhoy

Bond-007 wrote:

I thought that legal aid was automatically granted in "case stated" situations?

In Dublin, if you are charged with something similar to corkman9 then you'll most likely have to appear at court 46. A very small percentage of people in that court have to pay for a solicitor.

Also, there's just no way that you'll get a criminal record for drunk and disorderly if you have no previous convictions. What may happen is if you don't qualify for legal aid but didn't get a solicitor, the judge will increase the amount of the fine by a couple of hundred.

corkman9

Well, the day has come and gone. Had a solicitor on the day and the offense of not giving name/address to Garda was struck out due to an error with Summons. Pleaded guilty of being intoxicated. 200 Euro to the Garda Benevolent Fund and Probation of Offender's Act was the end result.

My solicitor reckoned if I had turned up on the day and told the truth but not been prepared with mitigating factors, then a big chance would of ended up with criminal record due to current climate about these types of offenses. Apologising properly to the Guard involved made a difference as well as contract of employment stating I needed to travel and character references ready for the judge. A lesson definitely learned and very glad that on the night itself or in the court didn't end up worse. My view after the whole thing is to get a solicitor in this type of situation if you have a lot to lose, just in case.

Many thanks for all the opinion offered in the thread.

Our man in Havana

How much did the solicitor set you back?

muffler

corkman9 wrote:

Well, the day has come and gone. Had a solicitor on the day and the offense of not giving name/address to Garda was struck out due to an error with Summons. Pleaded guilty of being intoxicated. 200 Euro to the Garda Benevolent Fund and Probation of Offender's Act was the end result.

My solicitor reckoned if I had turned up on the day and told the truth but not been prepared with mitigating factors, then a big chance would of ended up with criminal record due to current climate about these types of offenses. Apologising properly to the Guard involved made a difference as well as contract of employment stating I needed to travel and character references ready for the judge. A lesson definitely learned and very glad that on the night itself or in the court didn't end up worse. My view after the whole thing is to get a solicitor in this type of situation if you have a lot to lose, just in case.

Many thanks for all the opinion offered in the thread.

Delighted to hear that you "got off" so to speak. I think most people here did advise about the solicitor and the apology so basically everything went as we thought it would.
Now, take the pledge

corkman9

It was this thread that helped me decide to get one just in case when I was unsure of which way to go, total cost for solicitor was 440 euro.

hullaballoo

I'm not sure what it is I should be saying...congratulations is too strong a word. If I was able to spell out the sound of me sucking air through my teeth sharply, that's what I would say.

Eru

200 into the 'just in case karlitosway gets a chronic gambling and alcohol addiction fund' very much appreciated.:D

Personally while I appreciate the judges that give to the Garda fund I would rather see fines paid into the ISPCC and other childrens charities as they are always in need of cash and most Gardai have a standing order to the fund anyway.

Still, its not the sentence that counts but the lesson you learnt.

DublinWriter

corkman9 wrote:

My solicitor reckoned if I had turned up on the day and told the truth but not been prepared with mitigating factors, then a big chance would of ended up with criminal record due to current climate about these types of offenses.

I'm glad you took most of our advice on here about getting a solicitor.

You sound like a normally decent human being, we're all allowed a couple of mistakes.

If you do find yourself 'up before the beak' in this country, and your reputation is at steak, hire as much legal muscle as you can.

Case in point being Tim Allen, who turned up to his Cork District Court hearing with a solicitor, junior counsel, senior counsel and a P.R. agent. He received a suspended sentance for a posession of child pornography and slept in his bed that night.

In the same week in a District Court in Dublin, a man representing himself on the charge of throwing a cigarette butt out of the window of his car (he contested garda evidence and was appealing) received a two-week jail sentance in Mountjoy prison for his self-defense efforts.

Our man in Havana

DublinWriter wrote:

In the same week in a District Court in Dublin, a man representing himself on the charge of throwing a cigarette butt out of the window of his car (he contested garda evidence and was appealing) received a two-week jail sentance in Mountjoy prison for his self-defense efforts.

I assume he posted bail for a circuit court appeal?

I doubt he had any knowledge of the law or legal procedures.

patbundy

DublinWriter wrote:

I'm glad you took most of our advice on here about getting a solicitor.

You sound like a normally decent human being, we're all allowed a couple of mistakes.

If you do find yourself 'up before the beak' in this country, and your reputation is at steak, hire as much legal muscle as you can.

Case in point being Tim Allen, who turned up to his Cork District Court hearing with a solicitor, junior counsel, senior counsel and a P.R. agent. He received a suspended sentance for a posession of child pornography and slept in his bed that night.

In the same week in a District Court in Dublin, a man representing himself on the charge of throwing a cigarette butt out of the window of his car (he contested garda evidence and was appealing) received a two-week jail sentance in Mountjoy prison for his self-defense efforts.

that case about tim allen still makes me sick,it proves if you have money you get away with it