RTE & DTT trials.. whats the latest?

cormacl

Folks,
based on Montrose's digital document released last year.. we should be seeing DTT trials in progress now.

Anyone in the know of the status of these trials?.. or if they are panned to start anytime soon?

Round Cable

It was supposed to be early 2006, then mid 2006, now Septemper, I wouldn't be surprised if it kept rolling into 2007.

watty

They are Dept of Marire & Communications trials. If september can be regarded as "Summer" then they are still on track! Trails last I heard are Three rock & "This Summer" to start.

St Senan

I just found this. http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/8005552?view=Eircomnet

lawhec

The DTT pilot is currently in the build phase and is expected to be operational by mid-August 2006.

It is planned to continue the pilot over a two-year timeframe, during which time broadcasts will transmit from the Three Rock site in Dublin and the Clermont Carn site in Co Louth.

Two f**king years! :eek: :mad:

Three months was considered alright to trial DAB, a technology / platform that outside the UK is shaky and while no final decision has been reached, it appears that it will likely be spread out across Ireland in due course, despite the low-key launch and few DAB sets in the hands of the public.

DTT on the other hand is much more established, has Europe-wide backing, cheap receivers (at least for viewing, if not necessarily for interactive services if there are any) as low as €40 these days are available in N.Ireland, a low-key DTT launch in areas where DTT overspill from N.Ireland already exists (similar to the start of telly Éireann with the 405 line service) sutiably built up, even if its just restricted to Three Rock and Clermont Carn should not really need any more time that DAB, or six months at the most - what's the motivation for two years?

DMC

Hard to say why 2 years is required, but I thought the ball was dropped, thankfully now Dempsey has signed the infrastructure contracts.

DMC

I'll quote the full article from eircom.net, it case the text goes awol...

The headline says Louth, but in the article itself, it doesn't make clear that distinction between CC and TR.

Digital TV testing to begin in Louth
Sunday, 7th May, 2006

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/8005552?view=Eircomnet

The Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Noel Dempsey, has today announced the commencement of the rollout of infrastructure for the Digital Terrestrial Television Pilot in Ireland.

Expressions of interest and tenders had been sought for various aspects of the DTT infrastructure build and, after independent expert evaluation, winning tenderers have been selected and contracts executed.

"Not only will the project create an opportunity to test and trial this type of broadcasting service, but it will also generate awareness and discussion among interested parties in a full roll-out of digital terrestrial television," said Mr Dempsey today.

The DTT pilot is currently in the build phase and is expected to be operational by mid-August 2006.

It is planned to continue the pilot over a two-year timeframe, during which time broadcasts will transmit from the Three Rock site in Dublin and the Clermont Carn site in Co Louth.

Round Cable

From the Metro 'Dempsey sees digital Ireland within next 6 years' I assume he looking towards the EU "deadline" of 2012, after 2 years of testing at the sites, that would leave just over 3 years to convert the other transmitters, and every analouge home in the country, ambitious?

The 2 year trial period is to 'generate awareness and discussion among interested parties' perhaps they're talking about British broadcasters.

DMC

Its possible.

Think of it in terms of the way the UK are doing it... Imagine Ireland as an ITV region (stop snickering at the back, yes yes, TV3.. lol indeed) Population 4 million, size a good deal bigger. If an area the size of STV/Grampian is to be turned off as soon 2010, and not all of its transposers are upgraded yet, then, yes.

byte

I suppose they could start trials at other major transmitters within the 2 years also.. (at least, I hope so).

watty

Round Cable wrote:

The 2 year trial period is to 'generate awareness and discussion among interested parties' perhaps they're talking about British broadcasters.

Not particularly the British Broadcasters. They don't generally any longer run networks. Crowncastle, NTL etc run & own Transmitter networks . It is just a Political show so EU sees we are doing something.

The idea is that the DTT network is rolled out by an non-broadcasting Network company who then leases Multiplexes or bandwidth nation wide to the Broadcasters. RTEs TX network is now separately organised and run and was due to be sold nearly 6 years ago. Selling the existing analog TX network to the new entitiy that rolls out Digital is part of the plan.

RTE "rolling out" the DTT is I believe not even on the agenda anymore.

watty

byte wrote:

I suppose they could start trials at other major transmitters within the 2 years also.. (at least, I hope so).

Sadly unlikely, unless Watty gets rich and decides to spend it on a Nationwide DTT network licence.

byte

watty wrote:

Sadly unlikely, unless Watty gets rich and decides to spend it on a Nationwide DTT network licence.

Let's hope you win the Euromillions soon!

watty

Studied too much mathematics to be able to spend money on that.

cormacl

Folks,
many thanks for the replies. the reason I was asking is that I would like to purchase a DVB-T NIM for my Dreambox 7025 (currently twin removable DVB-S).. making it act as a combined Sat/Terrestrial receiver and giving me PVR functionality for all channels. But the NIM is DTT only.. its not analogue capable.

So if the state is sitting on its laurels doing sfa about the DTT trials/launch.. I suppose I'll be waiting to realise the dream.

I'm living in Leixlip, Kildare and from the rooftop have a clear view of Three-rock and Kippure.. so I'm hoping that when they do start broadcasting, that it will be FTA and I'll be able to receive it.

Charles Slane

I look forward to the day that my Hybrid AverTV PC receiver picks up a digital signal from Three Rock. Assuming of course that they use a system that's compatible and that it's not scrambled.

Round Cable

Must get ready for the tests, during the trial they'll decide on MPEG2/4, if it's MPEG4 it would be good for extra channels, but bad for cheap receivers, but I doubt Irish DTT wouldn't be packed to capacity anyway.

flogen

http://www.dcmnr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/Dempsey+Announces+Roll-Out+of+Digital+Terrestrial+Television+%28DTT%29+Pilot+in+Ireland.htm

If you can hold out until Mid-August, you should be able to pick up from Three Rock (if the Dept is to be believed)

Ulsterman 1690

(if the Dept is to be believed)

That bit says it all really !

Charles Slane

Anyone care to speculate on what channels they might use to test the transmissions?

I guess RTE1, RTE2, TG4 and TV3 will appear, but I wonder will Channel 6, Setanta or even Sky News Ireland get a look-in.

Or how about the any of the UK terrestrials?

byrnefm

Have they even decided which mode of transmission they're going to use - ie. is it 'safe' to buy a UK Freeview receiver for when the Irish DTT trial starts?

DMC

Well, from the tender docs, the default modulator configuations will be

Guard Interval (Delta/Tu):		1/32.
Outer Code Rate (Rc):		2/3.
Modulation:			16 QAM.
FFT mode:			8k.
Transport Stream packet length:	188 bytes.

, which are open to change when the trial starts, but as Round Cable says, if they go down the MPEG4 route, recievers will not be that readily available.

L1011

That guard interval is down from what ITS had been told to use (1/16 on MFN, 1/8 on SFN), but the rest is as-is from the 1998/1999 tender docs.

dmeehan

a very "informative" :rolleyes: piece from todays indo:

Independent.ie wrote:

Digital TV rollout move

THE rollout of infrastructure for the Digital Terrestrial Television (DTT) pilot has begun in Ireland, with BT Communications (Ireland) providing technical services, following a tender process.

watty

DMC wrote:

...but as Round Cable says, if they go down the MPEG4 route, recievers will not be that readily available.

I'm looking to source DVB-t MPEG4 receivers for another project. I'll post any supplier links.

ANY new DVB-x service at this stage, either handset or standard resolution should be MPEG4 ONLY.


France & Germany may be sources.

A DVB-T card in a suitable PC (or aided with suitable Graphics card X1300 etc) may do the required MPEG/AVC in SW (with possible GPU assistance)

Sponge Bob

from Silicon Republic

Ireland should aim for the EU deadline of 2012 for a complete switchover to digital TV, the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources Noel Dempsey TD said yesterday.

Thats not a deadline Noel , at least not unless you legislate for it and make it a deadline which you won't do. Its safer to say , based on your performance as minister in getting Broadband deployed nationally, that by 2012 , DTT coverage in the republic will probably equal TV3 coverage in 2001.

He was announcing the rollout of infrastructure for the long-awaited pilot testing for digital terrestrial TV (DTT). All winning tenderers have been chosen and contracts drawn up for the trial, which is scheduled to be operational by the middle of August.

One wonders what has been going on at 3Rock for ages ??? Surely that should read , 'the OTHER trial' or is it 'the trial reloaded' ???

Reality asserts itself in telly manaufacturer land

Speaking recently to siliconrepublic.com, Panasonic Ireland general manager Michael O’Shea said: “CEDA [the consumer electronics distributors association] regularly meets with officials from the department and we constantly express our intense frustration that there’s no progress being made on this. We’re getting further and further behind. We may end up struggling to get products manufactured for the Irish market because we’ll still be asking for TVs with analogue tuners for UHF and VHF.”

Even after 2012 Michael , what with Dempsey in charge

lawhec

That guard interval is down from what ITS had been told to use (1/16 on MFN, 1/8 on SFN), but the rest is as-is from the 1998/1999 tender docs.

I always thought the QAM configuration was to be 64QAM - a move to 16QAM for the trial should help reception in some areas, though it will reduce the amount of available video streams on each multiplex. Looking at the configurations, four video streams should be at a good-very good quality while only three streams will be in the very good-excellent range (assuming MPEG-2 is used).

I'm looking to source DVB-t MPEG4 receivers for another project. I'll post any supplier links.

ANY new DVB-x service at this stage, either handset or standard resolution should be MPEG4 ONLY.


France & Germany may be sources.

A DVB-T card in a suitable PC (or aided with suitable Graphics card X1300 etc) may do the required MPEG/AVC in SW (with possible GPU assistance)

The only European country right now using MPEG4 for DTT are France, and then only for subscription channels - FTA channels are still MPEG2. No other European country, either current or planning, uses MPEG4 for DTT, MPEG2 only. The consensus seems to be to adopt MPEG4-AVC for HD broadcasts and leave MPEG-2 for SD.

If streams are in MPEG-2, which my guesstemation would be about 90%, then a UK FTA DTT (Freeview) receiver should be compatible, provided it was bought within the last 3.5-4 years.

If I read the reports correctly, they'll be using three multiplexes for the trails, which makes me think they're aiming for something between 10-12 video streams, leaving aside any audio only streams and interactive/EPG data.

BowWow

Can a member of the general public (me!) offer to help/report in these trials?

watty

MPEG 4 chips & receivers only out, so any existing DTT of course is MPEG2.
But at this stage it would be criminal to use MPEG2 for a new service. MPEG4 Standard Definition means almost twice as many channels.

We got to have SOME advantage for being last!

Three Muxes is my RTE mole report...

spockety

The Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Noel Dempsey T.D., has today announced the commencement of the rollout of infrastructure for the Digital Terrestrial Television (DTT) Pilot in Ireland. Under detailed procurement processes, expressions of interest and tenders had been sought for various aspects of the DTT infrastructure build and, after independent expert evaluation, winning tenderers have been selected and contracts executed.
BT Communications (Ireland) will provide a multiplexing and distribution service to the DTT Pilot. Multiplexing is the technical service in which television signals are compressed for higher quality reception and more efficient use of broadcast spectrum. NEC (UK) Limited will supply and install the transmission and combining systems required for the DTT Pilot. RTÉ Transmission Network Limited, which maintains Ireland's international co-ordinated high-power broadcast sites, will assist the Minister and his Department in the development and operation of the pilot project.
Minister Dempsey described the pilot as a means to explore the possibilities around a switchover from analogue to digital terrestrial television on a nationwide basis. "Not only will the project create an opportunity to test and trial this type of broadcasting service, but it will also generate awareness and discussion among interested parties in a full roll-out of digital terrestrial television," said Minister Dempsey today.
The DTT pilot is currently in the build phase and is expected to be operational by mid-August 2006. It is planned to continue the pilot over a two-year timeframe, during which time broadcasts will transmit from the Three Rock site in Dublin and the Clermont Carn site in County Louth. The trial provides the opportunity for technical testing of services, both of existing and new broadcast channels and services, while allowing for viewers to experience the new service at user level. Broadcasts will be initailly across three multiplexes with the option of adding a fourth multiplex.
"This pilot is an important and exciting development in Ireland's long-term broadcasting strategy. I am committed to ensuring that Ireland keeps pace with the high-tech developments in communications being implemented across the EU. A free-to-air DTT service can provide much more for Irish viewers in terms of new, quality services and additional channels," concluded Minister Dempsey. "The Pilot should be seen as a presursor to a national rollout of DTT, which is a prerequisite for analogue switch-off and good spectrum planning for the future. The European Commission is proposing 2012 as a switch-off date across Europe. We should set our sights on 2012 as a date for completing the transition to digital television."
Further details on the DTT Pilot can be found at the following address: http://www.dcmnr.gov.ie/Broadcasting/Digital+Television/Digital+Terrestrial+Television+Pilot/
ENDS
For further media information, please contact:-
XXXXX XXXXXXX, Press Advisor: Office:
XXX XXXXXX, Press Officer: Office +
Email:

flogen

watty wrote:

Three Muxes is my RTE mole report...

Shouldn't a mole be giving you information that isn't publically available already?

lawhec

watty wrote:

MPEG 4 chips & receivers only out, so any existing DTT of course is MPEG2.
But at this stage it would be criminal to use MPEG2 for a new service. MPEG4 Standard Definition means almost twice as many channels.

We got to have SOME advantage for being last!

Three Muxes is my RTE mole report...

But what benefit using MPEG4 be in the Republic for extra channels?

After ITstv, is there anyone wanting to do a Pay DTT service? If not, then with frequencies cleared for six multiplexes from most current sites, MPEG2 albeit old would be fine. As the UK is finding out, there's only so many TV channels on a terrestial mass-market platform that can survive on advertising alone. Then compare the UK situation to the Irish Republic.

Using MPEG4 in a market as small as Ireland's would make STB prices much higher than those elsewhere in Europe right now. Nearly all DVB-T STBs in Europe (except for France) are MPEG2 only. Could Ireland get away with using something to the contary on its own? I doubt it. DVB-T STBs in the UK are now dirt-cheap. The last one I bought a month ago was less that £25 STG. MPEG4 chips are scarce at the moment with the likes of Sky, Premiere wanting them for their HD satellite services, though more are now getting on to the market.

I woul be very surprised if any FTA video streams for this trail are anything other than MPEG2 (except for possibly an engineering test), especially if the government want to try and push this trial as a success - it'll be much easier if people can go down to the likes of Power City or Dunnes and get a DTT receiver for €50 or less, plug in and sit back, rather than one one with a MPEG4 decoder chip costing (my estimation) €150 or more.

Sponge Bob

yah but can any of the mpeg2 ones be flashed to mpeg4 by any chance, the radio is the same ???

lawhec

Sponge Bob wrote:

yah but can any of the mpeg2 ones be flashed to mpeg4 by any chance, the radio is the same ???

If only it was that simple - MPEG4 decoding requires more processing power than that for MPEG2

watty

For Standard Definition the older DSP chips won't do the MPEG4 anyway. FOr HD MPEG there is substantially more processing. For SD MPEG4 not much.

Anyway there will be no price premium as shortly the MPEG4 DSP chips will be stadard in new designs. It would be very very short sighted not to insist on MPEG4 capability even if for a while MPEG2 is transmitted.

MPEG2 broadcasting is now going to be shortlived. Spectrum is VERY expensive.

MPEG2 is WHY a pay TV DTT is not possible. Only 30 channels. With MPEG4 then 60 Channels is possible. 30 is too few for PAY TV.

However there ARE people looking at Pay TV now in Ireland now that MPEG4 is available and for SD without a premium. HD capability will have a premium.


In set top boxes unline PCs the MPEG decoding is entirely done in a dedicated DSP chip. The CPU is not used at all except for User Interface, housekeeping & control, EPG and the Interactive menus.

The Tuner head drives the MPEG DSP directly.


The mole info is publically available if you already know where to look!

Spend a few hours browsing www.comreg.ie and also the Goverment tenders site (forget url).

byrnefm

Now I know it's not going to happen any time soon but I think a good way for DTT to become successful here would be to have the streams transmitted in MPEG4 and introduce the channels being transmitted in standard (ie. PAL) mode to start with, with the intention of adding HD versions of (some of?) them during the trial. That would make any additional cost from going MPEG4 worthwhile, IMO, especially with HD-ready TVs being already on the market.

rlogue

It all sounds great in theory, but if Irish TV distributors have a hard enough time sourcing System I TVs that support VHF as well as UHF, how can we expect there to be cheap DTTV receivers on the market if Ireland chooses a DTTV standard not used anywhere else?

Sponge Bob

watty is right but to go mpeg4 ab initio requires a vision lacking in Dempseyland .

the gear is out there Pace make HD Mpeg4 boxes like the 8 series

watty

The days of Sky MPEG2 and topupTV MPEG are seriously numbered. The attraction of paying for half as much bandwidth or getting twice the channels for same money is SO attractive.

MPEG2 is now obsolete.

Once Sky have met inital demand for HDTV they will look at supplying ONLY MPEG4/MPEG2 boxes. Then at some point they will switch all MPEG2 pay TV to MPEG4. I'd bet in less than 3 years.

Any new system also has to offer DVD, PVR etc rather than just set box. So cost of MPEG4 is negligable by next year. For Standard Definition.

Oddly Comreg already expressed a preference for MPEG4.

DMC

watty wrote:

Oddly Comreg already expressed a preference for MPEG4.

And therein lies the problem with Ireland and Digital.

The DTT tests are being done through DCMNR, RTÉ are bystanders.
DAB test are being done by RTÉ, DCMNR are bystanders
COMREG waffle but do nothing practical...

Is it any surprise there is no coherent digital strategy, when people keep pulling in different directions?

DMC

watty wrote:

Oddly Comreg already expressed a preference for MPEG4.

And therein lies the problem with Ireland and Digital.

The DTT tests are being done through DCMNR, RTÉ are bystanders.
DAB test are being done by RTÉ, DCMNR are bystanders
COMREG waffle but do nothing practical...

Is it any surprise there is no coherent digital strategy, when people keep pulling in different directions?

lawhec

The days of Sky MPEG2 and topupTV MPEG are seriously numbered. The attraction of paying for half as much bandwidth or getting twice the channels for same money is SO attractive.

Herein lies the problem with MPEG2. I wouldn't regard it as obselete, but rather deprecated. A bit like MP3, there's more efficient audio codecs out there, but MP3 is still hugely popular and won't die for quite some time yet.

TopUp TV is more or less stuck with MPEG2 for the forseeable future unless it wants to enrage what subscribers it has. They boxed themselves into a corner over it by starting the service using old OnDigital boxes. Had they held out a little longer STB manufactuers could have make an MPEG2/4 STB which in the bigger scheme of things would have benefitted them.

Once Sky have met inital demand for HDTV they will look at supplying ONLY MPEG4/MPEG2 boxes. Then at some point they will switch all MPEG2 pay TV to MPEG4. I'd bet in less than 3 years.

While I'd guess it'll happen at some point, it'll be more than three years I'd reckon. Our own Sky dodgybox is now more than six years old (installed February 2000) and still going strong. General installiations are slowing down but Sky+ PVRs are still selling strongly - they along with APRU and reducing churn are what Sky now target rather than gather newly active subscribers. To potentially change over 8 million Sky boxes will be a nightmare, and telling customers that they would have to pay for it would be a PR disaster for Sky and see the churn rate go sky high, especially with no obvious benefit for the customer if they stick to SD services. Sky would have to install new STBs with MPEG4 capability themselves, at a huge cost. That would have to be weighed up against transponder cost savings.

Any new system also has to offer DVD, PVR etc rather than just set box.

Why? in the UK, most of the STBs for Sky, DTT and Cable don't have PVRs or DVD's. There are of course such models available, but why try to bump up the cost for the average punter?

Edit: I've probably misread that line - I would agree that some sort of DTT PVR for the Irish market will come out in due course, probably not straight away though.

So cost of MPEG4 is negligable by next year.

Agree that such costs will come down over time, how quickly will depend on market forces.

I'll again say that I'll be very surprised if FTA video broadcast streams for the trial are anything other than the MPEG2 standard. What'll probably happen is that in future a French-style comprimise will be reached, MPEG2 used for FTA SD, MPEG4 used for HD and subscription SD, if and when they come about.

The Cush

Northern Correspondent wrote:

The only European country right now using MPEG4 for DTT are France, and then only for subscription channels - FTA channels are still MPEG2. No other European country, either current or planning, uses MPEG4 for DTT, MPEG2 only. The consensus seems to be to adopt MPEG4-AVC for HD broadcasts and leave MPEG-2 for SD.

Estonia will launch an MPEG4 DTT service late 2006
http://www.dvb.org/about_dvb/dvb_worldwide/estonia/
http://www.digitag.org/DTTNews/article.php?Id=1206

Czech DTT might use MPEG-4 for its new service
http://www.dvb.org/about_dvb/dvb_worldwide/czech_republic/

Poland debating MPEG-4
According to Broadband TV News a debate regarding the video compression standard to be used has raised the possibility of using MPEG-4 instead or as well as MPEG-2.
http://www.dvb.org/about_dvb/dvb_worldwide/poland/

watty

And Netherlands close their analogue TV this year!

Sponge Bob

MPEG4 should be the standard from the off. In the 'old' analogue days Many of us were stuck with 405 lines for 20 years when we should have had 625 lines all along

Do we want to repeat that mistake in the Digital era ?????

watty

Best analogy yet. RTE should never have started 405line. In fact some argue BBC should (and could have been) 625 in 1953. The 405 stuff was based on pre-war gear.

I can imagine though at the time in 1962...
But we can get really cheap 405 Sets from UK. My Brother has one already getting the Freeview BBC and UTV from Divis. Why should we adopt a newer technology that is a bit scarcer. Never mind that it was demonstrated in 1946!

France opted for an 819-line system which was a bold move to capitalise on war-time research, to re-establish French pride and to protect French manufacturers from foreign competition — the pre-war Paris transmitter, now adjusted to 441 lines, struggled on until 1956 for those with older sets. The rest of Europe opted for 625 lines, a system devised in 1946 by two German engineers, Möller and Urtel (it appears that the Russians came up independently with a very similar system and if you had set anyone else the problem — to Europeanise the American 525-line standard — they would have come up with something pretty similar). In Geneva a Mr W. Gerber proposed this as an European system and it has remained in use until the present day.

Only the American 525-line system has had a longer continuous "innings", beating the original British 405-line system. The French 819-line system, also used in Belgium, Luxembourg, Monte Carlo and Morocco, finally died out during the 1980s, and the only other notable major change to note was the coming of NTSC colour (or is it color?) which necessitated that system to change the vertical frequency in America from 60Hz to 59.94Hz and the horizontal frequency from 15,750Hz to 15,734Hz.

From http://www.icce.rug.nl/~soundscapes/VOLUME02/Lines_frames_and_frequencies.html

watty

Incredibily we chose to start on 405 lines in 1962 when UK had alread decided it was a costly mistake!

In August 1962 the BBC expressed hopefully that by April 1964 a start could be made with 625 lines on its new second channel in the London area, later to be extended to other regions. Indeed, after two years of testing and a campaign circling around two cartoon kangaroos named Hullaboo and Custard, on 21 April 1964 the first program was aired, with a delay of twenty-four hours due to a massive power failure in West London. With the advent of regular colour television transmissions — starting on 1 July 1967 on BBC2 and extended from 15 November 1969 to BBC1 and ITV — the 625-lines system gradually won over. The 405-lines system, however, endured for some years, finally fading from the British screens in 1985.

Paul Kirkby an Ex BBC Engineer now working for RTE, actually was at last 405 BBC TX when it was turned off and also at last RTE 450 line TX when it was turned off. He should be in Guiness book of Records for that!

lawhec

The Cush wrote:

Estonia will launch an MPEG4 DTT service late 2006
http://www.dvb.org/about_dvb/dvb_worldwide/estonia/
http://www.digitag.org/DTTNews/article.php?Id=1206

Czech DTT might use MPEG-4 for its new service
http://www.dvb.org/about_dvb/dvb_worldwide/czech_republic/

Poland debating MPEG-4
According to Broadband TV News a debate regarding the video compression standard to be used has raised the possibility of using MPEG-4 instead or as well as MPEG-2.
http://www.dvb.org/about_dvb/dvb_worldwide/poland/

Cheers for that - looking at the articles, it looks like the Czech Republic is already broadcasting using MPEG2 with a possible view of moving to MPEG4. Estonia seems to be the only one firmly committed to MPEG4.

And Netherlands close their analogue TV this year!

30th October I believe for the national channels, the locals might limp on for a bit longer. Though it'll be a bit more painless for the Dutch, very few of them rely on the analogue network soley for their television.

lawhec

Sponge Bob wrote:

MPEG4 should be the standard from the off. In the 'old' analogue days Many of us were stuck with 405 lines for 20 years when we should have had 625 lines all along

Do we want to repeat that mistake in the Digital era ?????

But RTÉ did have a 625 line network, across the country - moreso than the 405 line network. If you wanted to watch RTÉ in 625 lines rahter than 405 in 1962, you could except for a few pockets which had 405 line relays only.

RTE should never have started 405line. In fact some argue BBC should (and could have been) 625 in 1953. The 405 stuff was based on pre-war gear.

Looking back on these decisions, it probably would have been political suicide to have dictated a 625 line system only, especially in the places where 405 lines from the north were well received. Also a little surprised that some sort of 405 line TX was not set up for the south-east for those receiving TV from Wales.

The 625 line system probably was not adopted after WW2 in the UK probably down to the installed userbase of 405 line sets in London and that rationing was still in place as late as 1954, they probably decided to make do with what they had, plus as well cross-border and cross-channel broadcasting or link-ups wouldn't have been considered at the time.

Incredibily we chose to start on 405 lines in 1962 when UK had alread decided it was a costly mistake!

Debatable - that was more down to the recommendations from the Pilkington committee that recommended a future 625 line service, and it was partly on this basis that RTÉ decided on broadcasting on 625 lines. The BBC & ITA did 405 line tests on UHF in London in the late 1950's, while some articles I've read stated that some of the ITV companies were pushing for a colour system using 405 lines - the BBC also did 405 line colour tests in the mid 1950's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/405_line

In 1955 the BBC lost its monopoly of the British Television market, when commercial network ITV, comprising a consortium of regional companies, was launched. Some ITV companies, notably Lew Grade's ATV, proposed broadcasting in colour using a 405-line variation on the NTSC system, but the BBC persuaded the Government that colour should await the introduction of a higher-definition system.

At the time of the launch of BBC2, it was still thought the 405 line system would continue on until the 1990's!

Sponge Bob

But the cost of retooling the house with a new 625 line TV instead of a 405 Line TV would have been around £300 in the 1960s and 1970s when the average takehome pay was only around £40 at the end of that period. The telly was expensive then. The cost of having 2 tellys was prohibitive . Therefore people were stuck with what they had.
o pay a premium to some degree.

Antenna

Northern Correspondent wrote:

Also a little surprised that some sort of 405 line TX was not set up for the south-east for those receiving TV from Wales.

It was probably the case that a much smaller number of 405 line only TV's existed in that part of the country (compared to regions near NI where UK reception was more widespread for several years) and so it was not justified.
Also channel availability/interference may have been a concern. Putting a 405 line (as well as 625 line) TX on from Mt Leinster on either Band 1 or 3 may have been possible, but not without interfering with fringe BBC or ITV reception in some area or other and causing difficulty for politicians! Also it would have "used up" at least one 625 line channel (might have overlapped with 2) which might have been needed for RTE transposers in the region


BTW do any records exist of TV ownership (on perhaps a county by county basis) in this country prior to Telefis Eireann existing??? Would make interesting reading