NCAD move

Finner

I just read an article in yesterdays Irish Times by Colm ó Briain, the Director of the NCAD. He was talking about the plans for the redevelopment of the college where two of the possible plans involve the expansion of the existing sight at Thomas Street or a move to a new building at UCD.

In recent months there has been many protests on UCD grounds by students from NCAD (including setting themselves adrift on the lake!) and I personally feel that these protests are insulting to me and the college I attend.

I think my campus is beautiful, in it's own sort of way. It's beauty is in its modernity and the many different buildings from different decades bounce off each other in a very effective way.

I understand the NCAD students concerns that a move to UCD would mean a move out of the city centre which would be an inconvenience but on any other grounds I feel its an insult. They would gain a state of the art new facility and the college would still own and conduct some of their work on the Thomas Street sight. Students of both institutions would also benefit from the skills and experience each institution can offer each other while still maintaining their autonomy.

Students of this country should be banding together as friends for in the end we're all the same. But the moves by NCAD students are only causing conflict and bad relations between the students of UCD and NCAD, especially since there is no definite plans yet for anything. The only definite thing is that NCAD can't stay in its existing premises if it wants to be recognised as on the international stage as it well deserves to do.

I wonder if any NCAD student can clear up the matter for me? or if there are any other UCD student's who feel the same/not the same as I do? or if there's anyone else with an opinion in general about this matter?

Red Alert

Finner, you've certainly hit the proverbial nail on the head. I had read about and seen their protests against our campus; why do they feel the need to come and insult us?

Anyway we would have had plenty to offer them in terms of surroundings:

• The 1960's polish architecture, reminiscent of the cold war era
• In particular the 'nuclear bunker' appearance the library has
• A few very old buildings, some amazingly intact like Richview or Roebuck
• Some 1980's/1990's designed buildings such as Deadalus, Sport Centre and Eng
• Relatively good (if not expensive) sports facilities
• Some of the grounds of UCD where there hasn't been insane building are genuinely beautiful
• A useless Student Centre which they would probably spend time in
• An amazing variety of Wildlife, I've personnally seen swans, rabbits and foxes in the place

some of these sound perfect for arts type of people, in terms of both things to study and for inspiration. Imagine what the reaction would be if we had mounted a protest either after a move to UCD or before it outside their campus - 'Go away', 'NCAD's not welcome here' etc... People would be making us out as being selfish and unwelcoming.

beanyb

I can understand why they dont want to move here, they have a really nice small college atmosphere in NCAD and they would be swallowed up by the sheer size of UCD, however I think they ran the campaign really badly.

Most UCD students are indifferent about the subject since in reality it wont make a difference to our lives since there's so many people out here anyway. If they hadnt decided to insult us and therefore alienate us all from their campaign they could have had the support of around 20,000 people. But since they've insulted us, it makes us really not care what happens to them even more. Bad strategic move.

pretty*monster

I know from speaking to their campaigns officer (who's a friend of mine) that in general they never intended to insult ucd students. I explained to him, back in december, that they had insulted a lot of us (escpecially the Art not Orts placards)

They don't want to move, from what I gather, most of the staff don't either. And most of their reasons are pretty good ones.

They could have conducted their campaign better imo, but at the end of the day, getting support for the students of ucd won't make a difference in the scheme of things. And ucdsu supported them in either case afaik.

snickerpuss

Yeah it was the coming over to slag us off that annoyed me.
Fair enough if you don't wanna move here but we're not asking you to.
(also that art not orts thing was mostly what did it)

ferdi

i wouldnt blame them, i wish i had gone to a small university, UCD is faceless.

tintinr35

whos to say we want the C*unts here anyways, i for one think they are being really ungratefull..if they were to move out here they would have a brand new building with state of the art facilities that would make it one of the most modern and facility rich art colleges in europe!
how would they like it if we went into NCAD with banners insulting them and their course and campus!

Riamfada

Im with tintinr on this. Can we organise a protest march in NCAD

honru

I thought it was odd decision to protest in the UCD campus. I understand why they wouldn't want to move there, but they're hardly winning the support of the UCD students.

ferdi

Grimes wrote:

Im with tintinr on this. Can we organise a protest march in NCAD

good idea....maybe we could make it more of a 'Rally', i think we could get this guy to speak at it -> http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/art-11621

schmooschmoo

The protests were never intended to be anything personal against UCD or a critique of the college's current standing. The only reason UCD has come so much into the protests of NCAD and has been chosen to stage protests in is simply due to its listing as a proposed location to move to. You're perfectly aware of that, I'm sure, but I'll tell you that the exact same would be happening out in DCU had that been listed instead. Once again, we've no problems with DCU or its students (unless on some individual level that I'm unaware of) but we would have a problem with moving out to the suburbs and would be protesting there similarly.

It's terrible that students of UCD have felt insulted along the way. I don't blame them, there have definitely been a few miscommunications. It's actually become a pretty big concern among the protesters in NCAD and they hoped that the rafting protest was more succesful in targeting our director and not the students in UCD. The 'arts not orts' thing was a few people getting carried away with personal signs and not representative of the students of NCAD in any way. It happens at protests - you try and get a unified message across and a few people go a little off the side. Sure NCAD is full of d4 people and all sorts of funny accents anyway.

Riamfada

schmooschmoo wrote:

.The 'arts not orts'

I hear what you are saying but some girl actually walked around the Department of Lung Cancer and came up to me saying this. If NCAD students cant think of another valid reason to move to UCD other then the fact that they dont want to be associated with fictional charaters in a popular series of books they should be located back to playschool for re-eduaction from the ground up .

PS: Hitler Is a Very Shiney Man.

pretty*monster

On a more serious note, considering the was the humanities get f*cked around by the man with his eye on the bottom line, I can't imagine that Art and design would get shed loads of funding here, that their dept would certainly have very little power if they were ever to full integrate with ucd. State of the art facilities me arse.

From the pov of them retaining academic integrity (or whatever one would call that if applies to art) and independence they're infinitely better off staying put.

/wishes she went to a small liberal arts college that wasn't psychotically focused on preformatively.

Riamfada

Well that didnt work.

Pretty ALL colleges are the same. Can you give me an example of a small liberal college with a peaceful utopia shared between students and authorities?

ferdi

pretty*monster wrote:

/wishes she went to a small liberal arts college that wasn't psychotically focused on preformatively.

Amen to that sister

pretty*monster

Your terribly cynical Grimes.

Plus the horrific commute is a legitimate complaint! Trinners was top of my cao form for one reason only, getting there was so much easier.

Riamfada

pretty*monster wrote:

On a more serious note

I dont see how my post was any less serious than yours as most of NCAD students lament the loss of their Prime Location and their associations rather than their love for the area, their arguements against moving are weak and even funny.Kate you make a good anti-UCD point because you are so against the college and any form of change its mind boggling. Dont make me go through NCAD SU threads again

And Im sorry but I cant find the college's resons for relocating? Does anyone know or are we just starting to take off over nothing?

PS:
Dearm Mr Ahern
Please keep my college open I dont want to get the bus.
Signed NCAD Arts

Dear Mr NCAD Arts
Go grow the fcuk up .
Mr Ahern

pretty*monster

Grimes wrote:

I dont see how my post was any less serious than yours as most of NCAD students lament the loss of their Prime Location and their associations. Dont make me go through NCAD SU threads again

I consider academic integrity, how knowledge is communicated, what it means to be a university, cultures of learning, and an increasing focus on preformatively and the economic value of higher education to be matters of global importance and yes, far more serious than the issue of whether ncad pissed us all off with a badly thought out protest. I didn't mean to be insulting.

Grimes wrote:

And Im sorry but I cant find the college's resons for relocating? Does anyone know or are we just starting to take off over nothing?

As far as I remember NCAD wants to relocate because their current premises need a lot of work and it'll be cheaper to sell the high value city center site and start from scratch in Belfield.

Riamfada

Grimes went to a small liberal college and got royally fooked because of a lack of strong student representation (sure there were no students!) and a lack of a social life (sure there were no students) and poor academic resources (not enough students to care!. Our department ,Law had 1 Shelf in the "Library") . Now I'm in UCD i feel alot more represented and integrated with people the college itself and I'm sorry but when the sun has been out the past few days its been magnificent around campus.

I dont understand why you remain in UCD pretty if you hate it so much and think its such as **** place which culminates in a useless degree. In my experience its the same as every other college i have ever visted, academically of course.

*apologies im not as good with words

You seem to be using this NCAD move to highlight YOUR beef with UCD and not that of the majority of NCAD students



PS Kate

Maid Marrion was a slut

pretty*monster

Grimes wrote:

Grimes went to a small liberal college and got royally fooked because of a lack of strong student representation (sure there were no students!) and a lack of a social life (sure there were no students) and poor academic resources (not enough students to care!) . Now I'm in UCD i feel alot more represented and integrated with people the college itself and I'm sorry but when the sun has been out the past few days its been magnificent around campus.

Yeah but were talking about two diffent issues.

You're right, I adore the social life of ucd and all the other advantages that you mentioned.

What I worry about is... the bigger picture I suppose, the sort of stuff that doesn't seem to effect the average student on a daily bases, but is effecting the kind of society we have. The kind of rubbish I see sitting on the BA programme board whereby Hugh Brady, Philip Nolan and a load of faceless project managers seem to think they know better than Heads of Departments and professers how Italien, philosophy or history should be taught.
Undervaluing of Arts and Humanities basically.
Power being focused on higher levels of admin, instead of more locally in schools as it (imo) should be.
The emphasis on performativity and the bottom line which leaves no room for the idea of learning as a good thing in and of itself.

The kind of crap that has seen applications for early retirement triple (according to what the Head of one of the schools) this year

Grimes wrote:

You seem to be using this NCAD move to highlight YOUR beef with UCD and not that of the majority of NCAD students

I'm not 'using' this for anything.
My beef with ucd can only be resolved by me graduating and getting out.

I'm just commenting.

Chillax

arbeitsscheuer

pretty*monster wrote:

The kind of rubbish I see sitting on the BA programme board whereby Hugh Brady, Philip Nolan and a load of faceless project managers seem to think they know better than Heads of Departments and professers how Italien, philosophy or history should be taught.
Undervaluing of Arts and Humanities basically.
Power being focused on higher levels of admin, instead of more locally in schools as it (imo) should be.
The emphasis on performativity and the bottom line which leaves no room for the idea of learning as a good thing in and of itself.

Bingo - hit the proverbial nail right on the f**king head.

I've kept quiet cos I'm not so good at the whole arguing my point and/or maintaining a coherent line of thought, but it strikes me that NCAD is their college. If they wanna stay where they are (and I've been to Thomas St. a few times, I can see why they would like to stay put) then let them. I don't really understand why they are being coerced into this - the Academic staff aren't exactly over the moon about the proposed move either.

Me, I didn't feel insulted in the slightest by their SU's "Arts not Orts" campaign, thought it was pretty funny tbh.

Maybe I'm just not as easily offended as some of the rest of you.

Riamfada

SebtheBum wrote:

Maybe I'm just not as easily offended as some of the rest of you.

Post of the year.


The college , or any college for that matter isnt a ****ing democracy run by students and business men nor is it some lefty paradise run by just students for the joy of academia. Colleges make money and thats how you get to go to them. If it is financially prudent to move NCAD to a better campus rathern then spend millions fixing the hell hole up they are going to do that even if a few students from NCAD dont want to take the bus or a few UCD students have a beef with their college


Academics , sheesh . Do they not get their paycheck off the college. IF your company decides to up and move 5 km down the road you ****ing move with them. I dont see why students should get special treatment over the rest of society(but then again from being kids to college most students have been looked after and given special treatment by the powers that be since they popped out and on graduationg will realise that the world dosnt care about them or their situation and there is no one to look after them )

pretty*monster

Oh, and

Grimes wrote:

I dont understand why you remain in UCD pretty if you hate it so much and think its such as **** place which culminates in a useless degree. In my experience its the same as every other college i have ever visted, academically of course.

I don't think my degree is useless. I think if I straighten up and focus it's one of the most worthwhile things I'll ewver do.
I do however think that ucd treats me like my dgree is worthless

Grimes wrote:

PS Kate

Maid Marrion was a slut

Graham

I will destroy you

Riamfada

pretty*monster wrote:

I do however think that ucd treats me like my dgree is worthless

Yes because you are a number in a list of numbers and when you go out and get a job you wil be a number on a list of numbers on another page but by then you realise that how the world works.

arbeitsscheuer

Btw, just to put this discussion in context, here are linkies to prior debates on this topic:

NCAD in bed with UCD

NCAD protest on the Lake

pretty*monster

No Graham, you're not listening to anything I'm saying.

I'm not talking about student democracy, I'm not talking about a 'lefty paradise' (not explicitly).

I'm talking about how our culture values knowledge. It doesn't. That's bad.
I'm not trying to claim that we can necesserily do anything about it (not with out agonisingly slow social change or violent revolution as long we value capital we won't value anything else [but wouldn't a violent revolution in the name of knowledge be deadly]).

What I am saying (to bring this slightly on topic) is that a move to ucd will speed up the process by which NCAD will turn the way of most colleges and universities. Of course even if they don't move, they'll go that way anyway and from speaking to current/past students there they're well on track.

*edit* and when I said 'treat me' I didn't mean, boo hoo the man doesn't worship the ground I walk on.
I mean they don't treat the Colleges of Arts and Celtic Studies and Human Sciences (staff, students, subjects and all) with any respect. I don't get particularly upset that the admin push students around, it's ****, you fight it, but it's a fight you expect to have to fight. But it breaks my heart to see the effect the system has on teaching staff.

tintinr35

the bottom line is that if they move out here they will have unreal facilities due to the amount of money they will get for the site on thomas street........and i would imagine that whether they/we like it or not its going to happen....so they should work with the college to make the transition as smooth as possible instead of putting their time into building rafts and insulting us...who the fúck do they think they are comin into our college and insulting the biggest faculty in the university. let NCAD rot on their shítty ass campus on thomas street if they want UCD are offering them a lifeline and if they are too narrow minded to see it then let UCD build an art school regardless and we will soon see which one becomes the leader in the field

Riamfada

pretty*monster wrote:

Power being focused on higher levels of admin, instead of more locally in schools as it (imo) should be.

The kind of crap that has seen applications for early retirement triple (according to what the Head of one of the schools) this year

How does this affect you day to day? Just out of interested (so help me god if you say modularisation!;) )

panda100

pretty*monster wrote:

Oh, and



I don't think my degree is useless. I think if I straighten up and focus it's one of the most worthwhile things I'll ewver do.
I do however think that ucd treats me like my dgree is worthless

]

Prettymonster,Im sure UCD do not treat your degree as worthless infact I think its quite the opposite. You have the biggest building,closest to the library with the most books,teachers ,photocopiers,services etc then any of the other schools...art students have it sweet imo.Your degree is treated like any other degree so I dont know where your getting this 'worthless' idea from.

Seb as u said in a previous thread your parents protested against the move from ealsfortt terrace out to belfield.I cant help but think that if that move was occuring today prettymonster and seb would be dead against the move from the cramped earlsortt terrace to the spacious UCD.The reality though is a dilapitaded old building that would cost millions to do up,cold creaky rooms(its very difficult to be inspired by the beautiful architecture when your freezing your ass off). The fact that its a city centre location is neither here nor there.The bus service from town to belfiled is excellent with 10's and 46a's almost every 5mins.Whenever us meds need to get over to the mater we hop on the bus and are there in 30mins...I can only presume it will be the same for arts students who need to use the museums etc for inspiration.
Im confused why ncad dont want to move?I thought artists craved space and nature??

Riamfada

they are protesting the against the image of UCD and its rep using their arguments a superficial points to support thier protest

irishcrazyhorse

tintinr35 wrote:

the bottom line is that if they move out here they will have unreal facilities due to the amount of money they will get for the site on thomas street........and i would imagine that whether they/we like it or not its going to happen....so they should work with the college to make the transition as smooth as possible instead of putting their time into building rafts and insulting us...who the fúck do they think they are comin into our college and insulting the biggest faculty in the university. let NCAD rot on their shítty ass campus on thomas street if they want UCD are offering them a lifeline and if they are too narrow minded to see it then let UCD build an art school regardless and we will soon see which one becomes the leader in the field

Firstly,your obviously dont have a clue.....

One of the reasons why we dont want to move is
A. Our campus is fine,the only prob is we have to rent some of out equipment
B.Thomas Street has everything we need plus some.
C.They have just annouced that they are going to turn the Temple bar/Christchuch area into into the cultural center of Dublin!

And not one person out there went to insult the teachers or students,they went out on the rafts to raise awareness and to get some media attention...

But as you are in the biggest facility in UCD you knew all that right!?

The reason they want us to move is
A.They want the money for the land(we wont see a penny)
B.To merge our fine art department with yours(as well have the largest library in the country,of art/designs books, and some of the best tutors)
C.In the end it will not benifit us really in any way,will benifit the odd department in UCD and really take NCAD identity away...
The problem is not with UCD or the name,it is that NCAD is a unique,small college,with some of the brightest young artists/designers who all associate with each other.
To move the people out the the jungle that is UCD,the association between artists would be lost...

I really do hope that the majoity of UCD students undertstand what we are trying to do here and will support us,for any of you that have ever been in NCAD for any of our avents ,I say you all ready understand.

pretty*monster

Grimes wrote:

How does this affect you day to day? Just out of interested (so help me god if you say modularisation!;) )

*feels guilty about being off topic*

Ok... I can, and will, point out a few of the day to day issues. But the problem I have isn't a day to day one it's...about how much value we as a society, country whatever, place on knowledge. I don't think we value it nearly enough, to our detriment, because our capacity for higher levels of thinking is what separates us from animals. These days it seems more and more like it's just our capacity for shopping that warrants celebration.
It's hard to articulate, I'll try later though

Ok, day to day.

Less power vested in schools.
Means I can no longer always go to my school and get them to sort something out for me (time table, late application for MA, herrendusly late essay w.out a sick note, whatever). I can't go to the head of my dept and ask him how I'll be registering for my courses next year.
It means that the people who students find easy to contact don't have the answers and don't have the power to help them.
We've all heard of people being ping pong balled from admin to their dept and back.
It's stressful, it's frustrating, and it undermines a certain level of trust a student should be able to have in her/his school.


There's greater administrative presure on lecturers.
In philosophy (and presumably other shools) lecturers used to give tutorials. The burden of paper work they had to was increased and so only third years got tutorials from lectuers. Now that's gone too. Only one lecturer in the school of philosophy has the time to give tutorials any more. The lecturers I spoke to about said that they missed giving tutorials but they just didn't have to anymore.
I assume I don't have to spell out why a tutorial from a lecturer is more benifical than one from an MA student, but I will if you like.



The issue of staff moral is an issue that completely effects students.
Firstly if you're lecturers in a pissy mood the whole time because s/he can't get promoated without more research under her/his belt, but he has no time to research because of additional burdens placed on him/her by admin (just one of many reasons that moral is currently low) s/he is going to be less pleasent in a lecture/when you go to him/her for help/whatever.

But more importantly, if applications for early retirement are increasing (and they are) who's leaving. The most experienced. D'oh.
On top of that, if staff are bailing out it's the most talented who'll have the easiest time finding a position else where.

Riamfada

irishcrazyhorse wrote:

Firstly,your obviously dont have a clue.....

One of the reasons why we dont want to move is
A. Our campus is fine,the only prob is we have to rent some of out equipment
B.Thomas Street has everything we need plus some.
C.They have just annouced that they are going to turn the Temple bar/Christchuch area into into the cultural center of Dublin!

And not one person out there went to insult the teachers or students,they went out on the rafts to raise awareness and to get some media attention...

But as you are in the biggest facility in UCD you knew all that right!?

The reason they want us to move is
A.They want the money for the land(we wont see a penny)
B.To merge our fine art department with yours(as well have the largest library in the country,of art/designs books, and some of the best tutors)
C.In the end it will not benifit us really in any way,will benifit the odd department in UCD and really take NCAD identity away...
The problem is not with UCD or the name,it is that NCAD is a unique,small college,with some of the brightest young artists/designers who all associate with each other.
To move the people out the the jungle that is UCD,the association between artists would be lost...

I really do hope that the majoity of UCD students undertstand what we are trying to do here and will support us,for any of you that have ever been in NCAD for any of our avents ,I say you all ready understand.

ITs not YOUR campus and YOUR college!! Its their property and their business and there were other protests then the rafts in which people were insulted which left a bad taste in the mouths of many ucd students.

panda100

Grimes wrote:

ITs not YOUR campus and YOUR college!! Its their property and their business and there were other protests then the rafts in which people were insulted which left a bad taste in the mouths of many ucd students.

concur.....also the only reason I can see from that post to support NCAD not moving to UCD is that a select bunch of artistes will have to mix with common arts,science, buissness etc students..people not at all on their intellectual artistic wave length:rolleyes: Thats what your basically saying here??

As for temple bar becoming the cultural epicentre of Ireland,il believe that when I see it........

pretty*monster

panda100 wrote:

Prettymonster,Im sure UCD do not treat your degree as worthless infact I think its quite the opposite. You have the biggest building,closest to the library with the most books,teachers ,photocopiers,services etc then any of the other schools...art students have it sweet imo.Your degree is treated like any other degree so I dont know where your getting this 'worthless' idea from.

This isn't a paranoid little fantasy I'm having Panda.
Alotment of facilities is irelevant to my point (and arts students make up about 25% of the student body, I'd be pretty freaked if we didn't have the most stuff).

arbeitsscheuer

Grimes wrote:

ITs not YOUR campus and YOUR college!! Its their property and their business and there were other protests then the rafts in which people were insulted which left a bad taste in the mouths of many ucd students.

What relevance can that possibly have?!? :rolleyes:
The debate has nothing to do with UCD students - it has to do with the NCAD administration and their students, and the UCD administration.

If anything, if you feel so "insulted" (boo-f**king-hoo) by their protests, you should be AGAINST them moving into Belfield, cos guess what, you'll be seein a lot more of em if they do.

NCAD is also older than UCD, and has over 750 full-time students and 800 students taking night-classes. Their library has over 70,000 books. They opened a new wing in 1998 - the School of Design For Industry. In short, their facilities are fine and they do not need to move out to Belfield, nor do the people who matter want to.

panda100

pretty*monster wrote:

This isn't a paranoid little fantasy I'm having Panda.
Alotment of facilities is irelevant to my point (and arts students make up about 25% of the student body, I'd be pretty freaked if we didn't have the most stuff).

so why do you think UCD treat your degree as worthless then??

pretty*monster

for the reason's I've already gone into in detail

Finner

My gosh I posted this just this morning and look at how many posts there are - have you no study to be doing (I really do so everyone needs to stop distracting me!)

I agree with Tintinr35, they'll have a great new campus and state of the art facilities if they move to UCD or any other location for that matter. Plus at UCD they'd have the best of both worlds. The students would have the advantages of a big university while staying seperate and isolated they could still get the advantages of being in a small university.

I don't know why they're so attached to Thomas Street anyway, the college has only been there since 1980 and according to the article I read in the Irish Times yesterday that was written by the Director of the NCAD back then their first choice was a move out to Donnybrook.

They would have been the NCOD after all (National College of Ort and Design)

panda100

pretty*monster wrote:

for the reason's I've already gone into in detail

uhh that applys across the whole college...it is not a hugh brady out to get art students initative......that is just your paranoia Im afraid..:eek:

schmooschmoo

We are certainly not protesting against the image of UCD and its reputation. The reputation of the college is not under question at all and is nothing to do with our protests. Our argument is over the importance of our location to our work.

I believe some people give money far too much precedence in decisions. Of course it should always be a priority, but not THE priority. I've been trying to avoid classing NCAD or art colleges seperate to other colleges but I think it's justified in the argument I'm about to make. The location of art students is pivotal to their work. You simply cannot move them from room A to room B and expect the same work. This is true for any student but particularly so when your study is art and your basis for your study is the world around you. Can anybody fail to see to see the importance of location? We are not arguing that UCD is a hole or makes us sick at the sight of it, we are arguing that Thomas St. is ideal for our needs and we don't want that changed. I think too many people are thinking in terms of their own lecture halls and labs, etc. rather than art students who spend as much of their day walking about the city centre as part of their study aswell as being inspired by the charms of their campus that sits on a former distillery and the entire liberties area. This isn't mentioning how accessible IMMA is to us and all the local trades we use daily which would be irreplaceable in belfield (I can't see poundworld arriving in UCD to be honest).
... which brings me back to the money argument. Yes, keep things as financially boyant as possible, but if the end result leads in a creative dead end, no money in the world can fix that.

We firmly believe that the move is not going to happen and so the protests are going to continue until that is decided or a more satisfactory solution is proposed. So in that case, no, we are not going to make the transition as smooth as possible. We are both opposing the move and demanding the government give us adequate funding to address the concerns of our current campus and prevent a move to the suburbs. We have been severely underfunded for the status we have in relation to other colleges. That is the solution we are working on reaching and we don't believe it's impossible.

As for the argument of past moves being protested against and finding the move suited them after it happened - of course. Who can say whether any move will be a success or failure until after it has happened? Everybody involved in this proposal - including our director who is most open to it - is simply weighing up the pros and cons and using their belief and instints to form a decision. Just as some moves have been a success (UCD), many have been a horrible failure. I'll refer you to Katharine Crouan's article in the March 9th edition of the Irish Times to look at such a case. Interestingly, it's as close a camparison to NCAD's current situation as I've seen and relates to the Winchester School of Art's relocation to a larger campus. Also, the writer was in line to become current director of NCAD until complications arrose so she would be quite up to date on the matter.

Our director has stated on several occasions that we have been 'misinterpretting the move as a done deal' and protesting at nothing as no decision has been made. For somebody with his intelligence, I don't know why he keeps saying this and feel he is the one who has misinterpretted things. We are not protesting at a decision that's been made, we are protesting to prevent a possible decision and have been from the beginning.

The huge majority of our college, both students and staff, believe our director, Colm O'Brien's, interests lie entirely elsewhere to our own - he was never a practising artist. We don't believe he's trying to ruin the college at all but believe he's in danger of making a foolish mistake.

pretty*monster

I never said anyone was 'out to get arts.'

Changes in how we veiw learning and learning have hit arts hardest because asts subjects are not econimically useful in ways as obvious as commerce, law, med, etc.

This is another one I could write a thesis on. I'm not about to. The subject is too drepressing. You don't agree with me. You couldn't do anything about it even if you did.

irishcrazyhorse

schmooschmoo -very well said

Red Alert

You're complaining about a superficial lack of Poundworld... maybe we -could- get poundworld to open if you guys came out. Or maybe the SU shops could stock some more poundworld-like lines in the main store. So everybody gains. Maybe if ye looked at this in a number of ways instead of throwing a hissy fit it might help.

Kate is right about the perceivied lack of value / disinterest by the administration in Arts and Humanities. Within engineering alone there is a distinct bias towards certain disciplines. Undergrads and some postgrads are feeling the strain of money being diverted towards lucrative taught-postgraduate programmes. An entire computer room disappeared for an industry-serving paid-up programme's office. Brady and Co. are dangerous, but that isn't really the crux of this thread...

Seb it's great to see your parents protested about the move. Mine did too or so they say. I quite liked having some lectures in ET and some in BF. I don't like the way they want everything to be turned into bland clinical structures. Some of the 'unique' architecture like Arts and god-forbid Eng is being destroyed in the quest to aesthetically Bradyize the place. Belfield has its good points, especially on the Social side. ET has its good points too, and I've loved nearly every day i've spent there. The 'oldness' of the place, and the maze-like area behind the building add to its charm.

I'm quite happy to have NCAD here, but only if they are prepared to come and integrate with us. Loads of people have their own identity in UCD, be it stereotypical like Eng, CS, Architects - more different people = better for everyone => an art student should certainly want to be part of that.

panda100

Red Alert wrote:

Brady and Co. are dangerous, but that isn't really the crux of this thread...

About as dangerous as a new born puppy....but maybe some people percieve change and modernisation as fear of the unknown and 'dangerous'

Red Alert wrote:

Seb it's great to see your parents protested about the move. Mine did too or so they say. I quite liked having some lectures in ET and some in BF. I don't like the way they want everything to be turned into bland clinical structures. Some of the 'unique' architecture like Arts and god-forbid Eng is being destroyed in the quest to aesthetically Bradyize the place. Belfield has its good points, especially on the Social side. ET has its good points too, and I've loved nearly every day i've spent there. The 'oldness' of the place, and the maze-like area behind the building add to its charm.

.

As I said before the unique architecture of earlsfortt terrace is lovely and all but the reality is its a leaky old cramped building that is cut off from the rest of the college. Being cut off from the college means we are cut off from other students and being cut off from other students is a fundementally bad thing as its intresting and enriches all the college if all different types of students can integrate. I cant believe your saying congrats to your parents for protesting about the move to belfield....where would the campus accomodation been for those who came up from the country?people from outsde dublin also have the right to go to UCD.And where would have all the excellent sporting facilities been built??Have you ever been inside trinity cramped gym and cramped playing fields? If UCD was still in Earlsfortt terrace it would be a disaster...I cant think of anything worse then going to college in the city...if you wanted that you should have gone to trinity,if you didnt get the points then dont complain as UCD was my first choice (like many others) and I wanted freedom of space etc etc.....

panda100

panda100 wrote:

...if you wanted that you should have gone to trinity,if you didnt get the points then dont complain as UCD was my first choice (like many others) and I wanted freedom of space etc etc.....

Obviously Im not implying red alert that you didnt get the points:) ,it was more in refrence to what pretty monster said earlier

humbert

panda100 wrote:

About as dangerous as a new born puppy....but maybe some people percieve change and modernisation as fear of the unknown and 'dangerous'



As I said before the unique architecture of earlsfortt terrace is lovely and all but the reality is its a leaky old cramped building that is cut off from the rest of the college. Being cut off from the college means we are cut off from other students and being cut off from other students is a fundementally bad thing as its intresting and enriches all the college if all different types of students can integrate. I cant believe your saying congrats to your parents for protesting about the move to belfield....where would the campus accomodation been for those who came up from the country?people from outsde dublin also have the right to go to UCD.And where would have all the excellent sporting facilities been built??Have you ever been inside trinity cramped gym and cramped playing fields? If UCD was still in Earlsfortt terrace it would be a disaster...I cant think of anything worse then going to college in the city...if you wanted that you should have gone to trinity,if you didnt get the points then dont complain as UCD was my first choice (like many others) and I wanted freedom of space etc etc.....

This all seems more like a continuation of the previous "Poor meds stuck out in nasty old ET" argument than anything to do with how suitable or unsuitable belfield is for the more artistic NCAD breed of student. I completely sympathise with them, I like belfield but I've had friends who went to NCAD and really enjoyed and benefited from the Thomas Street campus, I'd love to see NCAD students provide a greater diversity to the belfield student populous but I can understand how from their point of view belfield's rather sterile atmosphere wouldn't benefit them. I think schmooschmoo puts the argument forward very well.

Chinafoot

humbert wrote:

This all seems more like a continuation of the previous "Poor meds stuck out in nasty old ET" argument than anything to do with how suitable or unsuitable belfield is for the more artistic NCAD breed of student.

Agreed.

Get it back on topic please.

tintinr35

irishcrazyhorse wrote:

Firstly,your obviously dont have a clue.....

Firstly don’t dare presume that I don’t have a clue about the issues in question here buddy...I DO.

irishcrazyhorse wrote:

One of the reasons why we dont want to move is
A. Our campus is fine,the only prob is we have to rent some of out equipment
B.Thomas Street has everything we need plus some.
C.They have just annouced that they are going to turn the Temple bar/Christchuch area into into the cultural center of Dublin!.

Right so your campus is fine.... yet you just said that u have to rent some equipment (well I think that’s what u mean, you should learn how to type though)
What’s the difference between Thomas Street and Belfield?
They (I presume you mean Dublin corporation) have announced they are turning temple bar etc into a cultural centre, why does this effect or have anything to do with NCAD, what about the art colleges in DIT, GMIT, LIT CIT IATD etc

irishcrazyhorse wrote:

And not one person out there went to insult the teachers or students,they went out on the rafts to raise awareness and to get some media attention...

But as you are in the biggest facility in UCD you knew all that right!?!.

Ya so can you please Explain the slogan "Art not Orts" used by members of the protest from "YOUR" College, also they referred to the UCD campus as a "drab modernist spectacle"
Im sorry but I find that insulting your protests have not only come into and disrupted UCD's Campus you have insulted the University and the degree that the majority of students in the college are studying...HOW DARE ANY OF YE belittle the degree that I am studying for, I worked damn hard to get and stay here (as im sure you NCAD students did) and I wont have anyone from another college coming in here and putting me or my fellow students down like that its just not on.

irishcrazyhorse wrote:

The reason they want us to move is
A.They want the money for the land(we wont see a penny)
B.To merge our fine art department with yours(as well have the largest library in the country,of art/designs books, and some of the best tutors)
C.In the end it will not benifit us really in any way,will benifit the odd department in UCD and really take NCAD identity away...
.

They want money from the land and the students wont see a penny.... what do u expect an allowance, they money would be used to build the new NCAD campus which would be in Belfield
Mate we don’t have a fine art department so I don’t see how they could be merged.... the plan is not to merge the College and the University it’s RELOCATION.
"Some of the best tutors" I know at least 3 of my History of Art lecturers are graduates of NCAD so are they inferior because they work here.
Your library would not be merged with ours either as far as I know (correct me if im wrong) all the newest faculty buildings in Belfield are equipped with individual libraries (Vets, Nurses etc). Our library simply could not accommodate all of the books from NCAD and regardless as I already stated the institutions would be remaining separate.

irishcrazyhorse wrote:

The problem is not with UCD or the name,it is that NCAD is a unique,small college,with some of the brightest young artists/designers who all associate with each other.
To move the people out the the jungle that is UCD,the association between artists would be lost...

I really do hope that the majoity of UCD students undertstand what we are trying to do here and will support us,for any of you that have ever been in NCAD for any of our avents ,I say you all ready understand.

How would any association be lost as Finner already said do you not agree that you could only benefit from the proximity of another student body?

Can you honestly tell me that you see no benefits in relocation to Belfield.... not even one! By all means stay in Thomas street and gradually turn into a for want of a better word shíthole but here NCAD students are not willing to look past their noses to see what is best for the development and advancement of the college.

To end my rant i will quote your good self!

irishcrazyhorse wrote:

You obviously dont have a clue.....

Blush_01

From my point of view, albeit a non-visually-artistic one, I cannot honestly see how NCAD students wouldn't at least entertain the thought of moving. To be frank, if it's going to happen, it'll happen with or without you. You don't own "your" college, as the point has already been made, and if it moves you can put up or shut up, it's that simple.

Within Belfield there's huge diversity. Small classes still have the same comeraderie as small colleges do - it's possible to confine yourself to your academic group if you want to, and solely socialise within that group. It's not advisable, but it is possible, especially in small classes.

Being on UCD's main campus means that you're not only close to the city centre - and can easily head back to the city centre or Thomas St. or wherever you want to go - but you're also close to the sea - it's only a stroll away. You have the various different areas within Belfield itself - the construction sites, the realtive nature reserve of Tir na nOg, woods out near the creche, disused buildings, an observatory, varying genres of architecture, close proximity to estates, isolated housing, apartment complexes, an entire world of fences full of holes to explore. You're not too far from anywhere, and perhaps the blank canvas of Belfield could possibly seen as an untapped well of opportunity?

I'm the ex-auditor of the ELS. We're the creative writing society in UCD. What we do is also art (in a manner of speaking), but we also do our academic work in UCD. There's far more to UCD than the NCAD students seem to give us credit for. I personally hate the narrow view people have of the ELS - we're not a bunch of parasitic and pretentious snobs. We're not elitist. We are artists, yes, but you can take or leave our art. Just because we're artists doesn't mean the world owes us anything. Now, that may all seem like a lot of faff to many of you, but it's the truth as I see it. I also feel the same about visual art. It will be taken or left on an individual basis. Visual art does not mean the world owes you, the artist, anything. Nor does the world owe the art, your creation, anything. It's wonderful that you were talented enough to get into NCAD. But pigeon-holing yourself is not only irresponsible, it's stupid, exclusionary and elitist. Inspiration can be found in anything - including instability. Open your eyes to at least considering the possibilities before you bury yourselves in the past.

(And as for poundsworth - go there in your own time. Don't be naive enough to think that the world - or the Liberties - will fall in without you. You think Duffys won't cope without your business? Take it from someone who knows all 6 of Duffy's stores - they're going nowhere.)

And finally, all of the above - my post and the rest - are effectively moot points. Why? Because the move was merely a suggestion made by someone in an office somewhere as to what could possibly be done. If it was going ahead, there'd be far more concrete evidence of the move available than a few NCAD students paddling a raft poorly around the lake, or wavng rather un-artistic placards around the place. At least put a bit of effort in if you're going to insult us.

humbert

I think not having experienced college life from the perspective of an NCAD student in college in the Thomas street campus we can't really judge. I don't simply think it's a matter of taking inspiration from the surroundings but being surrounded by similar artistic people is conducive to creativity. I don't think that's elitist. I can imagine how being subsumed into a very large college like ucd would be an unpleasant prospect coming from a very small one and how they do not want to lose their identity, lets face it they would be a minority and it can be intimidating being expressive(and they are an expressive lot) as a minority. Also I'm sure it's not their goal to insult ucd students or less still to do so in an artistic manner but just to have their objections noted by whatever means possible.