Is there some sort of design behind us?

frobisher

I couldn't work out whther to post this in religon, spirituality, philosophy or one of the science boards.... so after hours it is!

I've always had an open mind on all things religious and a keen amateur interest in science. Lately I've been finding that the more I read about science the more I become convinced that there is some sort of logic or strange design behind our existence. Be it God or aliens or giant worms or whatever! It just seems so incredibly unlikely that we could occur by fluke. Even a single bacteria is an absolute mind blowing piece of matter never mind complex creatures that can fly into outer space.

Anyone else had the same feelings?

aidan_walsh

An Intelligent Design, perhaps?

frobisher

aidan_walsh wrote:

An Intelligent Design, perhaps?

Makes suitably naff drum roll and crash!

homah_7ft

frobisher wrote:

Be it God or aliens or giant worms or whatever! It just seems so incredibly unlikely that we could occur by fluke.

How unlikely do you think?

frobisher

homah_7ft wrote:

How unlikely do you think?

As likely as winning the lottery but instead of having 36 balls you had 36000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, but you also need the bonus ball. And that's kust to form the very first bacteria ever without it also so how managing to turn into a human being after a few billion years of evolution.

biko

We are not designed as we have evolved by trial and error since the dawn of time. It's a coincidence that we as humans/primates are here at this time.
Look at all the species that didn't make it - dinos and other extinct creatures. What's the point of them? Where do they fit in a design?

Humans have been around for 2 million years or so and we modern humans about 150.000 years, give or take. That's a drop in the ocean of time but it's plenty of time for us to evolve from tiny monkeys to primates.

edit
Here's another thought for you. Name a single human invention of significance that has no predecessor? Things evolve from somewhat complicated to more and more sophisticated things.

homah_7ft

frobisher wrote:

As likely as winning the lottery but instead of having 36 balls you had 36000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, but you also need the bonus ball. And that's kust to form the very first bacteria ever without it also so how managing to turn into a human being after a few billion years of evolution.

Say we accept that figure but we are given x number more chances to play (i.e. tickets) then we end up with a likelihood of it happening.

simu

Well, it would be a pretty cráp design if that were the case.

Crucifix

simu wrote:

Well, it would be a pretty cráp design if that were the case.

/me whacks funny bone off the desk

No, I don't think there is some sort of design behind us.

aidan_walsh

biko wrote:

What's the point of them? Where do they fit in a design?

Never heard of "building one to throw away"? Its pretty common in design.

biko

aidan_walsh wrote:

Never heard of "building one to throw away"? Its pretty common in design.

It's a software learning process rather than evolution. If the dinos were built to throw away, did the designer send the comet that killed them? Why are there no improved dinos out there? The mammals only came to power after all dinos were gone, just as cockroaches will be here after us debating on boards (which is everlasting).

munkeehaven

The best things occur by Accident!

biko

munkeehaven wrote:

The best things occur by Accident!

I'm very happy to be here but am not too sure humans are a serendipity.
Just look what we are doing to the planet, and ourselves as a race. We haven't done a single good thing for the planet (stand to be corrected on this one).

munkeehaven

tell me about it,those are my sentiments too...

Mr_Roger_Bongos

Anyone else had the same feelings?

Yeah, iv often thought about similar stuff. Like, if the big bang theory is true, what was there before the particles that caused it? Who created the particles?

Most people believe that everything has a beginning and an end, does this apply to the universe? If so, what existed before the universe? and on the same principle that means that 'time' as we know it, must have all began somewhere!! Which leads you on to other plains of existence. ill stop there.

While your thinking about this sh1t, you could also consider, how do we know we're not in 'the matrix', if we we're in it (and i don't believe we are!!) how would we know? The matrix isn't what im getting at, it's the idea of someone else controlling our destiny or acting as fate.

These questions will never be solved (at least until morpheus offers you a green/red pill), unless BOARDS.IE POSTERS HOLD THE KEY!!

But yes, i have thought the same.

munkeehaven

if i posted my views on this i'd probably never finish

DaBreno

biko wrote:

We are not designed as we have evolved by trial and error since the dawn of time. It's a coincidence that we as humans/primates are here at this time.
Look at all the species that didn't make it - dinos and other extinct creatures. What's the point of them? Where do they fit in a design?

Sin E. Humans are here coz nuthin else could wipe us out. Its nice to think of a God or a higher being looking over us, but look at the world as it stands. There is no Intelligent design, we are strong enough to survive so we do.

Slutmonkey57b

I declare this thread a WOMBAT for some religious group. You're fooling none of us, WOMBAT. Especially not with this intelligent design crap.

Sleepy

Nah, if we were intelligently designed, we'd all be intelligent enough not to believe in gods.

chamlis

I blame.....the sea.

SoupyNorman

I'm just glad I'm here so I can enjoy things like rolo yougurts and sleeping!

Kermitt

MMMMMM Rolo yogurts!!!

Dooom

biko wrote:

Name a single human invention of significance that has no predecessor?

Um..the wheel?

Cianos

MMMMMM Rolo yogurts!!!

maybe after hours wasnt the best place for the thread:p

I think most people are misunderstanding the question. I know nearly nothing about it, but intelligent design basically suggests that evolution isnt just based on trial and error/survival of the fittest etc. New research is suggesting that there is some kind of design behind the evolutionary path. That some evolutionary "steps" are very unlikely to have occured just by standard Darwin theory.

Edit: heres more info about it. Click me

Capt'n Midnight

frobisher wrote:

Is there some sort of design behind us?

Not really.
We share most of our DNA with other organisms and are very far from unique.

Cytochrome C is very highly conserved, especially when you take into account that some amino acids can be very similar to others. Our version is different to the one in wheat, but still very similar.
http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/T/Taxonomy.html

You can knock any concept of us being the pinicle of evolution as we are very flawed. Baboons can eat grass. We can't. Too much vitamin-D is bad for us, most carnivors and omnivores don't have that problem. We have posture problems, male humans suffer hernias where a loop of the gut can descend into the scrotum ( IIRC the only organism on the planet that this happens to commonly ) Our eyes have the nerves on the front so unlike squid we have a blind spot. A 500,000,000 year old triblobite, like an extremely primative wood louse probably represented the pinacle of eye evolution in terms of design. Our brains can't survive without Oxygen more than a couple of minutes, and IIRC they need glucose as a food source so we are pretty at a disadvantage when it comes to going without food for a while compared to most animals.

Even scallops ( as per Shell Oil logo ) have prettier eyes and can swim better than most of us.

slipss

I don't believe in inteligent design myself, but purely because I haven't seen any
hard evidence to suggest it. This deosn't mean that I completely disregard the possibility that inteligent design could have taken place.

If I was willing to accept the possibility that inteligent design existed the most likely scenario I think is that the first living thing on earth (blue/green algae or some bacteria or whatever) was the thing that was designed by some inteligence (be it God or Satan or little green men) and then left on earth to evolve on its own. This seems to be just as likely or at least as unprovable as the really complicated, really long odds chemistry/physics reason for how life formed on Earth. But that brings up the problem of if another really advanced civilization from across the universe, for instance, were the ones that created life as we know it here and shot it off to Earth or whatever, then who created them?

The veiw that God was the creater deosn't have this problem as God supposedly has existed forever and didn't need to be created by anyone else but not believing (but not entirely disbelieving as per my ideas on inteligent design itself) in God myself this also runs into problems for me.

I could probably go into great detail about some of the most popular theorys put forward but without any real proof to back a single one of them up all I'd get for my trouble was bad eye sight and sore fingers. Maybe one day sooner or later, depending on which theory you subscribe to we'll get an definitive awnser but I wouldn't hold your breathe frobisher.

frobisher

frobisher wrote:

I couldn't work out whther to post this in religon, spirituality, philosophy or one of the science boards.... so after hours it is!

I've always had an open mind on all things religious and a keen amateur interest in science. Lately I've been finding that the more I read about science the more I become convinced that there is some sort of logic or strange design behind our existence. Be it God or aliens or giant worms or whatever! It just seems so incredibly unlikely that we could occur by fluke. Even a single bacteria is an absolute mind blowing piece of matter never mind complex creatures that can fly into outer space.

Anyone else had the same feelings?

The probability of something that's already occurred is 1, isn't it? IIRC.
So eh, no I'm not feeling the same way.
We clearly exist - there's not much point to must haves or what ifs.

Yeah, iv often thought about similar stuff. Like, if the big bang theory is true, what was there before the particles that caused it? Who created the particles?

Most people believe that everything has a beginning and an end, does this apply to the universe? If so, what existed before the universe? and on the same principle that means that 'time' as we know it, must have all began somewhere!!

See, time is a dimension, so to speak, in this universe. When there was no universe, there was no time(unless we like M-theory). So there was no "before" the big bang. And there were no "particles that caused it".
The big bang is a singularity. Maths breaks down there. But if it's true that it was the beginning of the universe, relativity etc will say what I just did.
The big bang is not something that was approached with the POV of "well let's say that one day there was nothing and then it exploded". It deals with working backwards in time from now to the earliest stages of the universe. Thanks to background radiation, and more importantly, the fact that the universe is expanding, we can take data and run it backwards - showing that if it's expanding now, surely it must have been a hell of a lot smaller x amount of time ago, etc. There's more to it than that, but I'm just trying to explain why you should look at it from now->backwards in time rather than the other way around.

Crucifix

bluewolf wrote:

So there was no "before" the big bang.

I thought there could have been something before the big bang, but anything before it can have no effect on the current state of the universe (due to the big bang starting with a singularity) and therefore is disregarded?

Crucifix

Crucifix wrote:

I thought there could have been something before the big bang, but anything before it can have no effect on the current state of the universe (due to the big bang starting with a singularity) and therefore is disregarded?

Like I said, unless we're going with something like m-theory and branes and multiverses etc - otherwise, IF it's true that the big bang brought all of it into existence then there's not really a "before".
You might be right, but either way we can't really be dealing with a "before"...
I don't generally have any interest as to the origins of the universe or life so I'm sure there are people who know more than I, but that's what I've come to after some reading on it...

Tar.Aldarion

I actually tend to be a fan of some of those theories. Nothing says there was nothing before the big bang. However, we can keep going back...
If we can not comprehend something existing forever, it doesn't mean it has not.
Etc.

No, I don't believe there is an intelligent design.

Dooom

Matrix tbh.

Tar.Aldarion

Ghost in the Shell tbh.

Dagnir Glaurung

If we were created by God then where did God come from? Circular reasoning ahoy!

biko

Spike wrote:

Um..the wheel?

No, evolution there too

Kermitt

Cianos wrote:

maybe after hours wasnt the best place for the thread:p
QUOTE]


He he.. Have been drawn into this debate so many times it was nice to see the humble dessert apreciated!!

It's always going to be the old Science VS Religion tussle.. Personally i think everything happens for a reason, whether that reason is part of an intelligent plan.. who knows. But there's too many things that have happened apparently by coincidence for there to be nothing driving the world. Call it what you like, God, Karma, Aliens, but some things seem to just happen despite all odds, or all efforts to avoid them.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

biko wrote:

Here's another thought for you. Name a single human invention of significance that has no predecessor? Things evolve from somewhat complicated to more and more sophisticated things.

the wheel?


yes of course everything happens for a reason, that doesn't mean it happens for a purpose. Things just happen.

DamoKen

munkeehaven wrote:

The best things occur by Accident!

not true, that's what my ex said about how we met

biko

Mordeth wrote:

the wheel?

Already addressed. You may want to read prev posts

monkeyfudge

biko wrote:

We haven't done a single good thing for the planet (stand to be corrected on this one).

Art is pretty good and fairly unique to our race.

Beethoven's 9th symphony is possibly the finest acheivement of the human race.

5uspect

Before the Big Bang?
How you know time even existed before the Big Bang? Thats a big assumption.
We're only starting to uncover some of the weird physics that existed in the early stages of the universe, Time is a property of this universe like gravity and many other thing we take for granted in our little bubble of reality.

Anyway back to the origional post about design.
I think evolution is the only answer here. But evolutionary science like all sciences (Intelligent Design is not a science) is a continued struggle to better explain our observations. New theories are constantly being tested.
A new theory by Professor Adrian Bejan of Duke University has found favour in a host of scientific areas including evolution even though is was developed in an engineering context. Bejan's Constructal Theory seeks to explain "design" in nature by showing that structures are optimised to minimise the flow resistence in them. Flow can be anything from fluid flow, to heat to traffic (not necessairly human). Essentially systems organise themselves to minimise their thermodynamic losses. Obviously the organism with a slightly better optimised respiratory system will consume less energy and will propagate more of its genes into the gene pool. Constructal Theory has been used to derive long standing empirical correlations the describe animal size and structure from first principles.

Bejan has written many a good book on heat transfer and some of these contain chapters devoted to this new theory. You should be able to find at least one of his books the the engineering section of any university library.

Its too easy to jump into a religious box and start envoking higher powers. We need to apply rational thought to these questions of the origins of life. Religion is a relic of a past where reason escaped many as they did not know any better or not given the oppertunity to consider all the possibilities. Unfortunately it is slowly seeping into places where people should really know better. Personally I would agree with Richard Dawkins that religion is a virus that infects the young. I would like to see all religon removed form the education system or at least taught only to older children as a irrational belief as part of some sort of philosophy class. This is turning into a rant so I'll leave it there.

Lord Oz

The entire universe is just some fat guy playing Spore. And so is his universe, and so on.

Dooom

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Ghost in the Shell tbh.

Dark City tbh.

New_Departure06

I am undecided on this question.

I think when I was 12 I believed in God. I don't know now though. The scandals in the Church have destroyed my trust in the institution. If there is a god, I doubt its a Catholic god.

I am an agnostic. Sometimes I believe there is a god e.g. when I see a program about ghosts and supposed sightings or photos. For example a few months ago I saw a program called "The Real Amityville Horror" which showed photos supposedly derived from recorded footage at the house. It showed one photo of a boy with demonic looking eyes. I was well scared and decided not to go to bed that night because I wouldn't be able to sleep after that scary demonic image. I wondered since was this photo genuine or could it have been faked? I don't know.

But then I think about the seemingly unstoppable advances of science. They are now saying they might even be able to stop an asteroid hitting earth. Life expectancy has increased greatly since independence here in Ireland (55 to 74 for men) and there are promises that we might live to 100 on average in a few decades. There is talk of possible vaccines for almost every serious diseases, even AIDS.

So the question then is this: if science can do all this, what is the point of religion, especially organised religion? Has it not just created barriers of division and sectarianism between Catholic and Protestant, Orthodox and Muslim, Shia and Sunni, Jew and Muslim? Is religion really such a good thing? That is not to dismiss the great contribution to helping the people of the Third World in terms of providing famine relief. But why is belief in a deity necessary to help the poor? Has not the dogmatic Catholic Church opposition to contraception greatly worsened the problems of AIDS in the Third World?

JoeB-

check out this link for odds on advanced civilisations in the universe in general...

http://www.npl.washington.edu/AV/altvw102.html

Tar.Aldarion

Spike wrote:

Dark City tbh.

Shut up smart ass tbh.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

biko wrote:

Already addressed. You may want to read prev posts

damn!
and I thought I was being so cloever

Dooom

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Shut up smart ass tbh.

tbh.

Me ftw.

Hail 2 Da Chimp

frobisher wrote:

Be it God or aliens or giant worms or whatever!

Your idea intrigues me and i would like to subscribe to your news letter...

Terry

Sleepy wrote:

Nah, if we were intelligently designed, we'd all be intelligent enough not to believe in gods.

nice paradox there.

slipss wrote:

The veiw that God was the creater deosn't have this problem as God supposedly has existed forever and didn't need to be created by anyone else but not believing (but not entirely disbelieving as per my ideas on inteligent design itself) in God myself this also runs into problems for me.

according to the bible, god created us in the first week of existence (i can't remember which day). simple archaeology has proven this to be wrong.

religion, while it can be used to promote hatred and violence, is essentially what keeps most people in the world going from day to day.
simple belief that a higher power is responsible for all the good and bad in the world helps a lot of people deal with a reality that can sometimes be extremely harsh and brutal. the unfortunate side of it is that some charismatic and power hungry people exploit these beliefs to feed their ego, obtain control over people, become rich or whatever. the majority of religious people in the world are peaceful and happy in their beliefs. it's just a shame that their leaders are not the same.

i like to go with descartes' philosophy. "i think, therefore i am". those five simple words sum up all of existence for me.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

hrm..

are dolphins? they think anyway...

and whales, and some large apes.... doesn't pretty much every animal think?

I think, therefore I'm probably wrong.

Diarmsquid

And what about PHI? The number I read about in the Da Vinci Code? 1.618.
Isn't it supposed to pop up everywhere in nature, and said to be the Divine Ratio that God used when he was creating the world?

I am basing this on what I've read in the Da Vinci Code though.