Longmile Road to Become One Lane

Brian21156

I was driving along the Longmile Road over the weekend and noticed that the inside lane in both directions has now been designated a bus lane. This is going to create havoc in the mornings and evenings when everybody is trying to move to one lane when both lanes are full as is. Would love to know what consultants got paid to come up with this idea.

road_high

What a stupid idea...As if there wasn't little enough road space there without creating less and devoting it all to buses which only run (usually late) every few mins at peak.

John R

Take the bus, problem solved.

The traffic is caused by all the people driving cars, why should bus users have to suffer delays because of them?


There is a new route to Clondalkin (and Adamstown AFAIK) via Long Mile road due to start soon.

Louisiana

there are now areas of the naas road between kylemore road and red cow that have been reduced to one lane too. its absolutely ridiculous to expect the already tremendous amounts of traffic on this route to get into one lane. for what? one of the worst bus routes in Dublin and theres been kilometers of QBC sitting idle in Clondalkin for well over a year now. they dont deserve to have so much road space when every car on the road pays tax.
the long mile road and naas road are major commuter routes that should be widened not reduced.

road_high

Louisiana wrote:

there are now areas of the naas road between kylemore road and red cow that have been reduced to one lane too. its absolutely ridiculous to expect the already tremendous amounts of traffic on this route to get into one lane. for what? one of the worst bus routes in Dublin and theres been kilometers of QBC sitting idle in Clondalkin for well over a year now. they dont deserve to have so much road space when every car on the road pays tax.
the long mile road and naas road are major commuter routes that should be widened not reduced.

Very good points made here, especially in relation to road tax-I pay 511euro per year in tax for what is in reality a very economical (50mpg) diesel car and am penalised due to the engine size (1.9L)...I could have the same size petrol engine that would guzzle fuel but yet I pay the same rip off road tax...This is hardly a fair and equatable regime.
And anyway what do I get for my road tax??-Endless gridlock (especially when i'm in Dublin) and very poor quality roads.I am disgusted with the failure of this govt to deliver on infrastructure.
On the Longmile road issue, where exactly do they expect the cars to go?Its just utter madness...

dowlingm

fitzy

ideally you'd have road tax and petrol tax as in UK - the former geared to CO2 emission rather than engine size and the latter penal to make up for lower VAT on fuel in UK and I don't think they have VRT either.

Raising fuel tax and refunding some VRT would be the way to go (if you just bought a car then penal fuel tax would be double taxation) but the rural lobby would go bananas and that, my friend, is the reason it will not happen.

markpb

It's been said before but I'll say it again: you can't keep on building new roads and hope the traffic jams will go away. That's naieve and farsical to believe. Bigger, wider roads will attract more traffic causing the same problems as before.

The only solution is public transport. Whatever you might think, bus lanes do carry more people per hour than car lanes. Trains carry even more people again. Public transport, done properly, moves more people faster than cars. If Dublin is to continue growing, the only way forward is more public transport and less private transport.

Dropping a lane on LMR for a bus lane means the buses can operate more effeciently improving the service there and elsewhere. Bus routes, in the majority, are bad because of cars not for any other reason.

OT, you pay motor tax for the privilege of operating a car, not road tax so you've no more right to the road than PT users. Extending silly thinking like that, only sick people should pay for hospitals, only criminals should pay for gardai and jails.

darkman2

Brian21156 wrote:

I was driving along the Longmile Road over the weekend and noticed that the inside lane in both directions has now been designated a bus lane. This is going to create havoc in the mornings and evenings when everybody is trying to move to one lane when both lanes are full as is. Would love to know what consultants got paid to come up with this idea.

Sounds like DCC deserve yet another medal for stupidity. :mad:

murphaph

The problem here is a complete lack of inter-agency cooperation. We know that SDCC have painted out Bus lanes in West Dublin which have no routes on them. SDCC, DCC (and any LA) should b commended for making an effort to provide genuine bus priority measures but I can see the point of the motorist sitting in gridlock with a bus lane to his left which caries no buses. That is inefficient use of the resource, however once a certain number of buses per hour are using the lane then it's tough on the motorist I'm afraid. Buses must get priority over private cars, simple as that.

They can paint the buslanes ten cover the plates until a bus route is ready to take advantage of the lane. This has happened in a god few places I can mention, are the posters sure that the bus lane has it's timeplates in order? If hey aren't there or are covered over it means the bus lane is not in operation and the lane can be used by all.

To those who think the LM should be widened to 'alleviate' congestion, have a :rolleyes: from me! Building roads throuh urban areas DOES NOT alleviate congestion, only quality public transport which gets peeople out of cars can do this and that means reserving roadspace for buses amongst other things!

darkman2

murphaph wrote:

The problem here is a complete lack of inter-agency cooperation. We know that SDCC have painted out Bus lanes in West Dublin which have no routes on them. SDCC, DCC (and any LA) should b commended for making an effort to provide genuine bus priority measures but I can see the point of the motorist sitting in gridlock with a bus lane to his left which caries no buses. That is inefficient use of the resource, however once a certain number of buses per hour are using the lane then it's tough on the motorist I'm afraid. Buses must get priority over private cars, simple as that.

They can paint the buslanes ten cover the plates until a bus route is ready to take advantage of the lane. This has happened in a god few places I can mention, are the posters sure that the bus lane has it's timeplates in order? If hey aren't there or are covered over it means the bus lane is not in operation and the lane can be used by all.

To those who think the LM should be widened to 'alleviate' congestion, have a :rolleyes: from me! Building roads throuh urban areas DOES NOT alleviate congestion, only quality public transport which gets peeople out of cars can do this and that means reserving roadspace for buses amongst other things!

The problem with that argument is that ppl want to use their cars. They pay enough tax to be able to do so. They dont want to use public transport.

Victor

darkman2 wrote:

The problem with that argument is that ppl want to use their cars. They pay enough tax to be able to do so. They dont want to use public transport.

There is no such thing as road tax, it is motor tax. And it doesn't give you the right to any specific piece of road.

I spend several hundred euros per year on bus tax, but I don't even get to own a bus at the end.

darkman2

Victor wrote:

There is no such thing as road tax, it is motor tax. And it doesn't give you the right to any specific piece of road.

I spend several hundred euros per year on bus tax, but I don't even get to own a bus at the end.

Yes but even if you provided a bus stop outside everyones house the vast majority of ppl will still use their cars:cool:

murphaph

darkman2 wrote:

The problem with that argument is that ppl want to use their cars. They pay enough tax to be able to do so. They dont want to use public transport.

Oh dear oh dear. This sounds like something my 70 year old father would say. Honestly, this is an attitude straight out of the 1950's. I can't actually begin to argue with this because it is so far beyond the pale in this day and age. Have you not realised though, that with the massive increases in vehicle use, the journey times have soared. I remember as a ki taking a bus (along little or no buslane) from Newcaslte Co. Dublin to Fleet St. Temple Bar in well under an hour. That would be pretty impossible nowadays.

paulm17781

darkman2 wrote:

The problem with that argument is that ppl want to use their cars. They pay enough tax to be able to do so. They dont want to use public transport.

So don't complain about congestion if a faster public transport option exists.

darkman2

murphaph wrote:

Oh dear oh dear. This sounds like something my 70 year old father would say. Honestly, this is an attitude straight out of the 1950's. I can't actually begin to argue with this because it is so far beyond the pale in this day and age. Have you not realised though, that with the massive increases in vehicle use, the journey times have soared. I remember as a ki taking a bus (along little or no buslane) from Newcaslte Co. Dublin to Fleet St. Temple Bar in well under an hour. That would be pretty impossible nowadays.

If the roads are designed intelligently and big enough there would be limited congestion. The anti car looby are making it worse by encouraging councils to narrow roads.

markf909

darkman2 wrote:

If the roads are designed intelligently and big enough there would be limited congestion.

Oh dear. Roads have a finite capacity. There is a limited amount of throughput for any road heading into the city centre. Therefore public transport ie Bus lanes, light rail and metro/heavy rail is the only solution to ensure that our roads do not become even more saturated with even more private cars. Paying motor tax is not a right to own the road Unfortunately most people in the country would have an attitude very similar to yours.

The anti car looby are making it worse by encouraging councils to narrow roads.

You should see what they are doing to your water :rolleyes:

murphaph

darkman2 wrote:

If the roads are designed intelligently and big enough there would be limited congestion. The anti car looby are making it worse by encouraging councils to narrow roads.

Erm, you live a thousand year old city, which ever so slightly predates the automobile. Blame the Vikings for the road layout, then start taking the bus. Out of interest, would you like all bus lanes removed and marked out as regular traffic lanes?

darkman2

murphaph wrote:

Erm, you live a thousand year old city, which ever so slightly predates the automobile. Blame the Vikings for the road layout, then start taking the bus. Out of interest, would you like all bus lanes removed and marked out as regular traffic lanes?

Most of them - yes. :mad: Also what about the ones that arent being bloody used. The N32 for example. Though I suppose youd want to keep that there, god forbid we have a proper two lane road in this location.

murphaph

darkman2 wrote:

Most of them - yes. :mad: Also what about the ones that arent being bloody used. The N32 for example. Though I suppose youd want to keep that there, god forbid we have a proper two lane road in this location.

I totally accept that there are bus lanes marked out and unused and in my first post I said that this was a waste of resources. Check with your council has the relevant bye-law been passed. These buslanes without buses usually don't have any legal status (and the signs and timeplates should be covered over until they have).

As for converting most buslanes (ie, the ones which are in use!) to regular traffic lanes, where do you think the buses will go? They will just be stuck in the traffic and who's going to pay to sit on a bus that takes as long as a car to get from A to B? Answer, only those too poor to buy a car and add yet more congestion to the roads. Are you beginning to see how this works? No PT priority=more cars=more congestion!

markpb

darkman2 wrote:

Most of them - yes. :mad: Also what about the ones that arent being bloody used. The N32 for example. Though I suppose youd want to keep that there, god forbid we have a proper two lane road in this location.

I know you'll never understand this but if all the bus lanes were removed, traffic would get worse, not better. All those thousands of people on a relatively small number of buses would be forced to drive and it doesn't take a genius to see how that would negatively affect things.

If you don't believe me, look at the annual traffic counts for the last few years. Bus lanes have a higher throughput than car lanes, it's there in the figures in black and white.

Your utopia is simply wrong and thankfully the city planners are very slowly starting to recognise that. Look at the other great cities of the world, they're all built on solid mass transport systems allowing people to live close to work and amenities. Your plan would see Dublin extending over an even bigger area, forcing everyone to drive for hours a day just to earn a living.

Victor

darkman2 wrote:

The N32 for example.

Used by airlink + taxis.

ardmacha

The problem in Dublin is that they never manage any postivity in transport. Imagine if when a QBC was introduced they had a "money back guarantee" if you had to wait more than 5 minutes for a bus on that route and they had big signs advertising that such and such a route was now part of the "quality" service. In reality they build buslanes and don't actaully put any buses on them, aggravating motorists who have longer delays and who do not see buses whizzing past them, instead they continue to pass crowded bus stops, which hardly ecourages them to switch.

fenris

Re: Public transport
Maybe you do not live and work along a direct line into the city centre?
Maybe your work takes you to customers outside the city centre (try getting to city west from Dun L. in less than half a working day)?
Maybe you like to do your customers and associates the courtesy of arriving on time to meetings?
Maybe you don't want to arrive at work with chewing gum on the back of your suit?
Maybe you don't want to play piss soaked seat roulette on the DART?
Maybe you can make productive use of your travel time with a hands free kit?
Maybe other peoples music, body odours and conversations do not turn you on?
Maybe your travel time is the only headspace you get !!!
Maybe somebody will find all the old census forms that would have allowed
the citys transport strategy to be planned around the people who live and work there.

darkman2

Victor wrote:

Used by airlink + taxis.

Ah yeah but that dosnt justify a dedicated bus lane at the expense of the motorists on this stretch of road.

Guy:Incognito

I have a car specifically so I dont have to stand in the pissing rain with 50 or 60 other people who then push and shove to be crammed , standing within an inch or two of someone else on a stuffy, condesation filled bus. The situation would be made 10 times worse if I decide to bring my son and his buggy, extra bag etc.

No thanks.

If everyone is so concerned about the amount of cars why not lobby the government to initiate car-pooling where say, a car with 4 or 5 people can use the bus lane?

I currently pay €830 motor tax, €880 insurance and €1.15 a litre for petrol and feel I am entitled to driive my car when I wish.

Taxis should not be allowed to use bus lanes. People choose to take a taxi and pay an extra premium because they dont want to get a bus, so they should get in line like the rest of us. Whats the difference between me driving my own car into town or me getting a taxi? It's still one car for one person.

darkman2

Stekelly wrote:

I have a car specifically so I dont have to stand in the pissing rain with 50 or 60 other people who then push and shove to be crammed , standing within an inch or two of someone else on a stuffy, condesation filled bus. The situation would be made 10 times worse if I decide to bring my son and his buggy, extra bag etc.

No thanks.

I currently pay €830 motor tax, €880 insurance and €1.15 a litre for petrol and feel I am entitled to driive my car when I wish.

I agree 100 per cent. Enviromentalists have some cheek telling us to go use public transport and yet we just want, and are entitled to use our cars on the best roads. We pay the most tax and therefore we have the bigger say.

John R

Stekelly wrote:

If everyone is so concerned about the amount of cars why not lobby the government to initiate car-pooling where say, a car with 4 or 5 people can use the bus lane?

Because it is a terrible idea that would not work on the short, limited bus lanes in Dublin. In the US it is usually applied on the outside or a completely seperated lane on motorways.

Here it would be unenforceable and create chaos as car-poolers jostled in and out of bus lanes every time they approached a stopping bus.

It would also significantly slow down buses as the bus lanes would be full of cars.

Stekelly wrote:

I currently pay €830 motor tax, €880 insurance and €1.15 a litre for petrol

Bus passengers pay fares so the bus company can pay for tax, fuel and insurance.

Everyone pays taxes in this country, motorists don't have a special right to anything just because it costs a lot of money to drive a car.

Stekelly wrote:

and feel I am entitled to driive my car when I wish.

Nobody has said otherwise. I just don't believe you and others who insist on using cars for city journeys are entitled to block every inch of roadspace to the detriment of others who use less damaging means of transport.

Stekelly wrote:

Taxis should not be allowed to use bus lanes. Peopel choose to take a taxi and pay an extra premium because they dont want to get a bus, so they should get in line like the rest of us. Whats the difference between me driving my own car into town or me getting a taxi? It's still one car for one person.

Fine by me.
I have never thought taxis should be allowed in bus lanes, they do nothing to alleviate congestion.

daymobrew

Stekelly wrote:

I currently pay €830 motor tax, €880 insurance and €1.15 a litre for petrol and feel I am entitled to driive my car when I wish.

I pay similar motor tax, insurance and petrol prices to you but I choose to cycle or use public transport. I am 9 miles from my office (Dublin 15 to East Point).

You choose to take your car and have to taken what comes with that - congestion. When I take public transport I choose to take what comes with that - the timetable that I have to work around and the potential to be beside someone with BO or other invasions of personal space.
I still choose public transport because it is considerably quicker for me.

Louisiana

John R wrote:

Everyone pays taxes in this country, motorists don't have a special right to anything just because it costs a lot of money to drive a car.

I just don't believe you and others who insist on using cars for city journeys are entitled to block every inch of roadspace to the detriment of others who use less damaging means of transport.
QUOTE]

the government has done nothing to aliviate congestion problems in Dublin. they provide a very limited bus service based on a model from 50 years ago that everyone wants to go to the city centre. if there was a better service connecting suburbs with industrial estates outside of the city
1. less people would need cars for these specific routes
2. it would eliminate the need for so many people to get one bus to town and another to their desitination.
i agree whole heartedly with improving public transport but i dont agree with taking valueable road space from drivers for QBC without any improvements being made to the bus service. sure the local bus on the Long Mile or Naas roads might now be faster but theres no more buses on this route than before and its not serving any more people or anymore destinations. we need to look at the bigger picture here.
the government is taxing us heavily to buy a car, taxing us to drive it and taxing us to put fuel in it without providing an adequet alternative.

Idleater

Louisiana wrote:

we need to look at the bigger picture here.
the government is taxing us heavily to buy a car, taxing us to drive it and taxing us to put fuel in it without providing an adequet alternative.

No.

No one is taxing anyone heavily to buy a car. You make a choice to buy a car. In making that choice, you agree with the Terms and Conditions that come with that choice. These T&C's include paying a contribution to local government etc etc etc.

By choosing to buy a car you still do not force yourself not to use public transport, you make a decision yourself whether or not you want to sit in your cage and complain or whether you sit on a bus and complain.

You could buy a moped, pay considerably less tax, get much more MPG and get around much easier if you wanted. Again it is a choice that noone forces you to make.

L.

_Kaiser_

Fenris's post above sums it all up IMO, but for those who are convinced that public transport in Dublin is a viable option, consider the following - I've used this example before admittedly:


I used to live in Coolock and work in Blanch

- There is no DART serving Coolock.

- There is no LUAS serving Coolock.

- There are no Commuter trains serving Coolock.

- There is basically one route serving everything between Northside SC and Clare Hall.. the 27.

- This route, I was told by drivers on it, is considered one of the "problem routes" due to the area is serves and the scumbags who inhabit it.

- This route is often diverted/cancelled at night due to attacks on buses. Although certainly not the driver's/DB's fault and I agree that "what else can they do", as a passenger it is therefore unreliable.

- This route goes nowhere near Blanchardstown. Instead I would have to get a 39 from the City Centre, or a 17A to Finglas and then a 220 the rest of the way.

- Using buses, this journey takes 90 mins at the minimum each way - more at peak hours because remember, you have to factor in waiting times as packed buses pass you! For the purposes of this example, I'm making the (admittedly unrealistic) that the buses run to schedule.

- Using buses you will most likely end up standing through the whole journey at peak hours crushed up against fellow passengers, listening to scumbags, kids screaming, people shouting on mobiles, people's choice in music on mp3 players etc.

Now for comparison:

- With my car I can make the journey in 30 mins or less

- With my car I can leave when I choose to and adapt to traffic situations by choosing an alternate route.

- With my car I am guaranteed a seat

- I am not soaked/freezing cold by the time I get into my car.

- With my car I can listen to what I want - or even nothing at all.

- I do not have to share my car with scumbags drinking/smoking/shouting/fighting.

- I do not have to change cars (at least once) to get to my destination.


I could go on, but I think I've made my point but please - prove me wrong folks!

murphaph

Jeez Louise. Nobody here has claimed that every journey would be better on the bus. Of course not. People can CHOOSE not to live/work close to each other. They can CHOOSE to buy a car and drive to work. These are choices. Neither of them guarantees you roadspace/time. Public transport must be given priority wherever possible to encourage it's use. Simple as that really. You people who believe the car is your divine right to drive should thank the half 500,000+ a day who make journeys on Bus Atha Cliath/Iarnrod Eireann/etc. Imagine if they all drove a car too. How bad do you think your journies would be then?

darkman2

murphaph wrote:

Jeez Louise. Nobody here has claimed that every journey would be better on the bus. Of course not. People can CHOOSE not to live/work close to each other. They can CHOOSE to buy a car and drive to work. These are choices. Neither of them guarantees you roadspace/time. Public transport must be given priority wherever possible to encourage it's use. Simple as that really. You people who believe the car is your divine right to drive should thank the half 500,000+ a day who make journeys on Bus Atha Cliath/Iarnrod Eireann/etc. Imagine if they all drove a car too. How bad do you think your journies would be then?

Yes and imagine if we had proper roads.;)

murphaph

darkman2 wrote:

Yes and imagine if we had proper roads.;)

Like where? Give me an example of a city in Europe that has no gridlock because of it's excellent road inrastructure.

darkman2

murphaph wrote:

Like where? Give me an example of a city in Europe that has no gridlock because of it's excellent road inrastructure.

Give me an example of any country in Europe that has a proper motorway network other then Germany - none:cool:

murphaph

darkman2 wrote:

Give me an example of any country in Europe that has a proper motorway network other then Germany - none:cool:

You're trolling now. You are unable to answer the question because you know full well the cities in Europe with minor traffic problems are in that situation because they have invested heavily in public transport, not because they invested in roads.

You're diversionary tactics fail anyway, because Germany isn't the only country with a comprehensive motorway network. Netherlands, Belgium, Switzerland all have excellent motorways. Even the UK has an excellent network by our standards, but all these countries (including Germany) exhibit gridlock from time to time. Proving, if proof were needed that building roads cannot eliminate traffic jams.

These countries avoid grinding to a halt because they have excellent public transport, not because they have excellent roads. The old centre of Munich for example has relatively freeflowing traffic because only an idiot would opt for the car over their public transport network, yet head north on the A9 motorway (supposedly freeflowing) and you'll meet major traffic jams.

Idleater

darkman2 wrote:

Give me an example of any country in Europe that has a proper motorway network other then Germany - none:cool:

The Netherlands for its size has an extremely good motorway network, Belgium too. I think Letztebourg is catered for too - given its size. Italy, Austria, France are excelent. The latter two of these I know have high tolls for using the motorways... That is the list Ive driven on (and also Germany) and I would like to tell you that none of the above list of countries is without their Gridlock and traffic jams.

The Netherlands for one has an excelent integrated public transport network, yet there are Queues and Queues on the motorways at rush hour. I don't know what this exactly proves other than having "good" roads does nothing to alleviate traffic congestion.

Like Murphaph said, this argument is all about CHOICES. You live by the sword you die by the sword so to speak.

Kaiser2000 - did you consider cycling or a moped/motorbike? I commute 32km in 35-40 mins on the motorbike. Leave at 0815 arrive 0850. M50 all the way..... Bless your cages...

L.

Alun

darkman2 wrote:

Give me an example of any country in Europe that has a proper motorway network other then Germany - none:cool:

Now you're just being silly. There are plenty of European countries with extensive motorway networks, and all of them, yes even including Germany, experience gridlock at peak times too ... believe me, I speak from experience.

The idea that pervades boards.ie that everyone in Germany floats along on uncongested autobahns in 7-series BMW's and E-class Merc's at 200km/h all the day, every day, is just pure bunkum I'm afraid. Try driving home around the Ruhrgebiet at going home time, or undertake a journey to the Alps when the schools are just out for summer, and you'll soon change your mind.

I lived in the Netherlands for 13 years and the trafic jams at peak times were absolutely horrendous. On the radio, they didn't even bother reporting the ones under 10km in length! And that's in a country with an excellent but overfull public transport system.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

darkman2 wrote:

Give me an example of any country in Europe that has a proper motorway network other then Germany - none:cool:

...Norway... Sweden... Denmark.... (You can now drive direct from Sweden to Germnay) ....

The problem is arrogance: I pay tax so Is hould be able to drive whenever I want.

You can. You just can't do it quickly. And if you belive you should be, fine. But it's a point you need to take up with your fellow motorists...

darkman2

murphaph wrote:

You're trolling now. You are unable to answer the question because you know full well the cities in Europe with minor traffic problems are in that situation because they have invested heavily in public transport, not because they invested in roads.

You're diversionary tactics fail anyway, because Germany isn't the only country with a comprehensive motorway network. Netherlands, Belgium, Switzerland all have excellent motorways. Even the UK has an excellent network by our standards, but all these countries (including Germany) exhibit gridlock from time to time. Proving, if proof were needed that building roads cannot eliminate traffic jams.

These countries avoid grinding to a halt because they have excellent public transport, not because they have excellent roads. The old centre of Munich for example has relatively freeflowing traffic because only an idiot would opt for the car over their public transport network, yet head north on the A9 motorway (supposedly freeflowing) and you'll meet major traffic jams.

European standards of motorway construction are woeful. Compared to the US for example or the Far East. In countries like Dubai and Saudi Arabia it is far superior. The UK has a half built motorway network with highly questionable juction designs, much like ours and like ours they are simply not big enough. France has an ok motorway network ridden with tolls whilst Switzerland, Luxembourg, Belgium and the Netherlands do not (from my experience) have adequate capacity. Once again they are too small mainly because the green lobby have got a look in. Build metro, light rail etc however also make the roads big enough to take a high level of capacity. We are only a small country and tbh we should not be finding it this difficult to quell traffic congestion if an intelligent approach was taken in the planning and construction of our roads.

paulm17781

Are you insinuating that the likes of California, New York, any US city and any Japanese city does not suffer gridlock?

_Kaiser_

nereid wrote:

Kaiser2000 - did you consider cycling or a moped/motorbike? I commute 32km in 35-40 mins on the motorbike. Leave at 0815 arrive 0850. M50 all the way..... Bless your cages...
L.

Nope, cycling to Blanch from Coolock would be a nightmare with the state of some of the (back)roads between these 2 points, not to mention the way I'd see buses (and yes, cars too) squeezing them off the roads sometimes. Similarly, I wouldn't have wanted a motorbike either.. I just don't trust the things -I'd rather the extra protection and safety of a car.

But ok, here's another example - Blanch to Navan:
- Walk to bus stop @ about 7:30 (7 mins)
- Get 39 to Blanch Village/Navan Road.. 10/15 mins in the morning (+ waiting time of course!)
- Walk from the Village to the BE stop just beyond the Blanchardstown Village roundabout (7 mins)
- Wait on BE Route 109 (because you can never exactly tell when it'll show, you need to be there about 15 min after it leaves Busaras)
- Blanch to Navan (with "diversion" via Clonee and Dunboyne) - 45 mins(ish)
- Walk from Navan bus stop to the office (10 mins)

Total time: 70-90 mins approximately

Via Car:
- leave Blanch @ 8am.. to the office in Navan (via N3) - 35/45 mins maximum.

... my point here is that DB/BE are not viable alternatives I think for a lot more people in this city than those that who say public transport is The Way would have us believe. Again I refer to Fenris's post which sums it up in 2 lines:

Fenris wrote:

Maybe you do not live and work along a direct line into the city centre?
Maybe your work takes you to customers outside the city centre (try getting to city west from Dun L. in less than half a working day)?

If you fall into either of those 2 catagories then a car IS the only viable option. Also note that a lot of employers ask/prefer that you have your own transport (this may or may not be explicitly stated but it is in their minds).

markf909

darkman2 wrote:

European standards of motorway construction are woeful. Compared to the US for example or the Far East.

Now you are really showing your lack of knowledge:D

In New York, try moving on the Brooklyn Queens Express Way at any time during the day, never mind the rush hours. Similar for the 405 in LA, its about 6 lanes wide in both directions and well built. Its the most congested road in the world. Tokyo barely has a motorway penetrating the city, everyone uses the public transit there and the congestion is doesnt even come close to that of LA. These are examples from cities I have personally visited. This notion of "good roads alone" that you claim are the solution is nonsense IMHO. We need top class public transit and decent road infrastructure.

daymobrew

Kaiser2000 wrote:

... my point here is that DB/BE are not viable alternatives I think for a lot more people in this city than those that who say public transport is The Way would have us believe. Again I refer to Fenris's post which sums it up in 2 lines:

Fenris wrote:

Maybe you do not live and work along a direct line into the city centre?
Maybe your work takes you to customers outside the city centre (try getting to city west from Dun L. in less than half a working day)?

If you fall into either of those 2 catagories then a car IS the only viable option.

murphaph agrees that public transport isn't for everyone. Maybe some people who work in the city centre will reply and say why they choose to drive to their office!

Comments about rain are weak. When people who use rain as an excuse to cycle (where you would be exposed for the entire journey, unlike bus/train users who are only exposed while waiting at the stop) it is pointed out that the likelihood of being caught in the rain is very low. I cycle and it's extremely infrequent. There might be showers during the day which might distort one's impression but I am surprised how often I am not caught in the rain during my 80 mins of cycling (40 each way).

Another aspect that no one has mentioned is working from home. I do so at least once a week. My employer is progressive and I have proved that I am honest enough to do my work while out of the office. With my 80 mins of commuting eliminated, I generally end up working that time.
Other employers should realise the benefits of this.

superdog

darkman2 wrote:

European standards of motorway construction are woeful. Compared to the US for example or the Far East. In countries like Dubai and Saudi Arabia it is far superior.

I was in Dubai last week and the congestion is horrendous!
Takes 45mins to an hour to go 5 or 6k.

they're building a metro there now which is due open in 2009 - hurrah!!

Victor

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

darkman2 wrote:

Give me an example of any country in Europe that has a proper motorway network other then Germany - none:cool:

...Norway... Sweden... Denmark....

Of these, only Denmark is well covered by motorways, the other two have relatively limited systems, confined to the main urban and inter-urban routes.

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

(You can now drive direct from Sweden to Germnay) ....

No, you have to go through Denmark.

darkman2 wrote:

Build metro, light rail etc however also make the roads big enough to take a high level of capacity. We are only a small country and tbh we should not be finding it this difficult to quell traffic congestion if an intelligent approach was taken in the planning and construction of our roads.

Traffic expands to occupy available capacity. The intelligent approach is to provide public transport.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Victor wrote:

Of these, only Denmark is well covered by motorways, the other two have relatively limited systems, confined to the main urban and inter-urban routes.
No, you have to go through Denmark.

Traffic expands to occupy available capacity. The intelligent approach is to provide public transport.

I meant via Denmark (as opposed to via Poland and various Baltic States)!!

Sweden seemed to be well covered when I was there. Admittedly, I only saw the southern part of it. And I've never seen as many clean sities and towns and as many bikes as I did in Scandanavia. Perhaps there's a link...?

Victor

You can get maps at www.viamichelin.com

Metrobest

nereid wrote:

The Netherlands for one has an excelent integrated public transport network, yet there are Queues and Queues on the motorways at rush hour. I don't know what this exactly proves other than having "good" roads does nothing to alleviate traffic congestion.

Like Murphaph said, this argument is all about CHOICES. You live by the sword you die by the sword so to speak.
L.

The problem in the Netherlands is population density in the city ring and a significant minority of attitudes similar to Kaiser and Darkman's. Plus the motorways there are not tolled. The drive from Amsterdam to Amersfoort in the rush hour was hell, I remember.

The problem with Dublin's street layout is that it just wasn't designed for the levels of congestion it now handles. To change this, you would have to design the city as an LA-style doughnut. Several road tunnels would criss-cross under the city centre, while the M50 would have to be extended to 12 lanes. The M1, M2, M3, M4, M7, M9 and M11 would all have tunnel portals leading into the city centre and these roads would also have to have extra lanes. Massive underground carparks would have to be built to accomodate all the extra cars.

The cost would be astronomical - "road tax" would have to be quadrupled or more to fund it. No further investment would be made in public transport.

In this scenario, massive numbers of public transport users would switch to cars. Buses would be then used by only the poorest of the poor - immigrants, those on social welfare.

We would become a society controlled by the car.

The A&E crises would worsen as people spend more time in their cars and less time walking. Fat people would waddle into hospital with all sorts of health problems. Pollution would rise sharply: in summer motorists would be advised not to open their windows due to car pollution in the tunnels.

None of this is exaggerated or unlikely to happen in Dublin. It has happened in Sydney. Here, the recent fuel price increases are seen as an assault on motorists' freedoms. This in a country with one of the lowest fuel prices in the world. Sydney is utterly car dependent.

There are motorway tunnels in outer Sydney commuterville that car parks in the rush hour making the M50 look like an Autobahn! One tunnel handles 100,000 vehicles daily and motorists are not allowed to open their windows because of health risks. There are tunnels everywhere, city "streets" with 8 lanes of traffic, minimal green man time at pedestrian junctions. Public transport consists of shambolic jam-packed commuter trains serving outlying low-rise suburbs.

It's a city planned around the "freedom" of the car - and it shows. But such planning can never work in a populated city environment. Unfortuntately the likes of Darkman and Kaiser will continue loading up their tanks with overpriced petrol while the car manufacturers and oil barons sit in their 40th floor offices, dreaming up the next advertising campaign based on the great open road.

murphaph

Not to mention increased road traffic accidents! A nightmare scenario that we can avoid so long as these 'car is king' attitudes disappear.

darkman2

'To change this, you would have to design the city as an LA-style doughnut. Several road tunnels would criss-cross under the city centre, while the M50 would have to be extended to 12 lanes. The M1, M2, M3, M4, M7, M9 and M11 would all have tunnel portals leading into the city centre and these roads would also have to have extra lanes. Massive underground carparks would have to be built to accomodate all the extra cars.'

:eek: What a great idea:D