Apes aren't human!!!

lostexpectation

The Spanish Socialist Party will introduce a bill in the Congress of Deputies calling for "the immediate inclusion of (simians) in the category of persons, and that they be given the moral and legal protection that currently are only enjoyed by human beings." The PSOE's justification is that humans share 98.4% of our genes with chimpanzees, 97.7% with gorillas, and 96.4% with orangutans.

http://www.spainherald.com/3438.html

The way this is phrased is a total insult to minors and the handicapped

simian rights which would defend ape interests "the same as those of minors and the mentally handicapped of our species."

I mean a think apes habitats should be protected, they shouldn't be tested on or made clowns of but this is just silly!

Demetrius

Now that has to be a joke!

Tar.Aldarion

The sooner that rights are extended to all animals the better, go the socialists of Spain!

The_Minister

Congradulations on 1000 posts lost expectation.
Some apes probably do deserve greater protection than other animals but they aren't equal.

Demetrius

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

The sooner that rights are extended to all animals the better, go the socialists of Spain!

You have to be joking

Zombrex

lostexpectation wrote:

The wya this is phrased is a total insult to minors and the handicapped

Only if you assume being compared to a higher primate is insulting, which kinda goes against the point of this bill in the first place

For example saying someone "kicks a ball like a girl" is only insulting to the person and to girls in general if you assume that girls can't kick a ball well.

Likewise this is only insulting to handicapped and children if you assume apes are as dumb as sh*t. They aren't, far from it.

Higher primates have shown almost human levels of intellgience, learning ability, self-awareness, community structure and language.

A fully developed ape can show intelligence and learning ability far in advance of a seriously mentally disable person or a young child. So why is the mentally disabled person or child given the full rights under the law but an ape isn't.

GuanYin

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

The sooner that rights are extended to all animals the better, go the socialists of Spain!

Just wait til they start coming over here taking your jobs and your women, then we'll see how happy you are!

The_Minister

Wicknight wrote:

Higher primates have shown almost human levels of intellgience, learning ability, self-awareness, community structure and language.

We did this in psycology. Primates can use logic, yes but their cognitive and language skills lag far far behind humans. Even those that can utilise sign-language only do so at a primitive level.

Demetrius

Because were the same species as disabled people?

Because, animal in nature we may well be, we are different to apes?

Just because they share some of our DNA doesnt make them that special. Weve all sorts of DNA in our bodys. Should we give rights to reptiles and amphibians as were at it?

Zombrex

Firespinner wrote:

We did this in psycology. Primates can use logic, yes but their cognitive and language skills lag far far behind humans. Even those that can utilise sign-language only do so at a primitive level.

They may be far behind fully developed humans. Are they far behind mentally disabled humans?

Tar.Aldarion

Firespinner wrote:

We did this in psycology. Primates can use logic, yes but their cognitive and language skills lag far far behind humans. Even those that can utilise sign-language only do so at a primitive level.

Clearly there are quite intelligent, sentient etc.
Now, are you going into 'they are not as smart as us yet so we are better' line?
Where does one draw the line?
If somebody is smarter than somebody else should they have more rights?

lostexpectation

Wicknight wrote:

Only if you assume being compared to a higher primate is insulting, which kinda goes against the point of this bill in the first place

For example saying someone "kicks a ball like a girl" is only insulting to the person and to girls in general if you assume that girls can't kick a ball well.

Likewise this is only insulting to handicapped and children if you assume apes are as dumb as sh*t. They aren't, far from it.

Higher primates have shown almost human levels of intellgience, learning ability, self-awareness, community structure and language.

A fully developed ape can show intelligence and learning ability far in advance of a seriously mentally disable person or a young child. So why is the mentally disabled person or child given the full rights under the law but an ape isn't.

Nah I don't think an ape can be as developed as any human, its the whole human thing

Demetrius

Wicknight wrote:

They may be far behind fully developed humans. Are they far behind mentally disabled humans?

Some humans may be disabled but they shouldnt be put in the same sentence as animals

Zombrex

Demetrius wrote:

Just because they share some of our DNA doesnt make them that special.

What makes us "special" if not our intelligence and self-awareness?

If the thing that makes us specail amount other animals is that we have higher brain functions, then surely we should protect other animals that demonstrate they have higher brain functions, even if they are not at the same level as ours?

Demetrius

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Clearly there are quite intelligent, sentient etc.
Now, are you going into 'they are not as smart as us yet so we are better' line?
Where does one draw the line?
If somebody is smarter than somebody else should they have more rights?

An animal isnt a somebody. Its an "it"

Rev Hellfire

Demetrius wrote:

Just because they share some of our DNA doesnt make them that special.

Actually its a little bit more than some. But I think we should work on granting rights to all members of our species before introducing some new ones.

I can see it now the monkey nation taking the chimp's to court over the inclusion of their citizens in their diet.

Zombrex

Demetrius wrote:

Some humans may be disabled but they shouldnt be put in the same sentence as animals

*Groan*

I was waiting for this :rolleyes:

They aren't lowering disabled people to the level of common animals.

They are raising the higher primates to our level, or at least the level of underdeveloped minors or mentally disabled people.

The mentally disabled humans remain at the same level as they always have.

Demetrius

Wicknight wrote:

What makes us "special" if not our intelligence and self-awareness?

If the thing that makes us specail amount other animals is that we have higher brain functions, then surely we should protect other animals that demonstrate they have higher brain functions, even if they are not at the same level as ours?

I could understand where youre coming from with something like a Neanderthal, which we were supposedly able to breed with but not apes. An baby chimp raised in a human environment is still a chimp. A human, even if he/she has limited intelligence is still different.

Zombrex

Demetrius wrote:

An animal isnt a somebody. Its an "it"

You are an animal.

Do you even know why you consider humans "special" compared to other animals?

Or are we just because...

Tar.Aldarion

Demetrius wrote:

An animal isnt a somebody. Its an "it"

Dude, are you sure you are not an 'it'?
Humans are animals.

Nah I don't think an ape can be as developed as any human, its the whole human thing

Humans are animals.


http://www.ernestcline.com/dmd/

Demetrius

Wicknight wrote:

*Groan*

I was waiting for this :rolleyes:

They aren't lowering disabled people to the level of common animals.

They are raising the higher primates to our level, or at least the level of underdeveloped minors or mentally disabled people.

The mentally disabled humans remain at the same level as they always have.

Some mentally disabled people when caught in time can have their abilities nurtured. A case was in Iran during the 1970s in various orphanages. Due to understaffing little contact was given to babies. As a result they became listless and disabled. However when brought into more human surroundings they began to develop. When alls said and done a chimp doesnt have the ability to make that final leap like some people are able to, once they are given a little encouragment or attention.

Vegeta

The question I have is why have they been granted these rights, because they are highly intelligent or because they have a high % of DNA similar to ours

lostexpectation

Wicknight wrote:

What makes us "special" if not our intelligence and self-awareness?

If the thing that makes us specail amount other animals is that we have higher brain functions, then surely we should protect other animals that demonstrate they have higher brain functions, even if they are not at the same level as ours?

It not just our higher brain function, it numerous things, including the fact that we are us...

GuanYin

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Dude, are you sure you are not an 'it'?
Humans are animals.


Humans are animals.


http://www.ernestcline.com/dmd/

And animals do horrible things to other animals. Why do you think small mammals have such big litters? Its because the survival rate of their young is so low.

Whats your point?


On one hand you seem to be arguing that we can't use "we are better" to justify mistreating animals but if we're just like other animals why can't we treat them as a resource just like all other animals do to creatures lower down the food chain?

Demetrius

Wicknight wrote:

You are an animal.

Do you even know why you consider humans "special" compared to other animals?

Or are we just because...

Yes we are animal, but what I meant was were not the same as other animals. We are special.

Why do I consider humans special? I dont see a chimp logging onto the boards, do you?

Vegeta

I await the day a chimp posts on boards, man that would be so cool

GuanYin

Demetrius wrote:

I dont see a chimp logging onto the boards, do you?

Actually, given the quality of posts on boards these days I often wonder....

Rev Hellfire

I'm not sure we can read much into the statement "the same as those of minors and the mentally handicapped of our species." since from the link supplied we're not gettinga full quote. And for all we know it may be taken completely out of context.

Vegeta

psi wrote:

On one hand you seem to be arguing that we can't use "we are better" to justify mistreating animals but if we're just like other animals why can't we treat them as a resource just like all other animals do to creatures lower down the food chain?

This is a concept I agree with in total, no one has a problem if animals butcher animals naturally in the wild but a lot of people get freaked if humans (we are animals) do it to animals. I'll never understand this.

Demetrius

psi wrote:

Actually, given the quality of posts on boards these days I often wonder....

Hoo, hoo, ah, ah!

Tar.Aldarion

psi wrote:

And animals do horrible things to other animals. Why do you think small mammals have such big litters? Its because the survival rate of their young is so low.

Whats your point?


On one hand you seem to be arguing that we can't use "we are better" to justify mistreating animals but if we're just like other animals why can't we treat them as a resource just like all other animals do to creatures lower down the food chain?

My point is that, humans are animals. People are under some ridiculous notion that we are not, as if 'human' was something different.
Yes, we are no better than these animals, but we are smarter, yes. We have developed to a point where we think murder of humans is wrong, black people, women, etc. Slowly everything is being given more rights and it is about damn time. All humans aren't even extended rights, we are a joke of a horrible, beautiful species of animal. We are intelligent enough to know that we should not hurt, but we do. We are the only animal that inflicts pain knowing it to be pain. We are just like every other animal, our reasoning and intelligence is at a higher level however with evolutionary psychology playing a lesser role in what we do.
We should not kill as we do not need to to survive.