Are gardai illegally catching speeding motorists?

bravo

Ok, so I might exceed the speed limit from time to time and yes I accept if I'm over I will pick up points. Thankfully I haven't so far.
But the gardai in the ditches, laneways, hiding behind bushes, really gets to me. Awareness and public visibility would be far more effective, and it is easy to see why its all seen as a money racket.
So after that little rant here;'s the piece for discussion:
If the garda is hiding in a garage forecourt or in someones lane, is he operating within the law to issue a summons or on-the-spot, if he has used his laser or camera while on private property? Should he/she not have the land/property owners permission? Can he/she be challenged on this? Purely hypotetical of course!

MrSinn

I have never seen them doing this,have you?

Our man in Havana

I know of one case where Gardai were parking in a petrol station after the close of business in the dark. I know the owner had to take steps to prevent them from doing so in the future.

I don't know about challenging them, if they are there without permission then possibly they may be tresspassing. I don't know if the Gardai can be classed as tresspassers.

Eru

Bond-007 wrote:

I don't know if the Gardai can be classed as tresspassers.

Nope we cant but we also cannot just waltz into private property.

As for the original question, a petrol station is public not private and a laneway has an implied right of access (in the courts at the moment concerning S49).

Besides all that, the offence is commited on the publuic road not where the Gardai are standing so your busted my friend.

In addition, Im baffled. We had covert enforcement and we were critised so we went with the big yellow 'here we are' checkpoints, cars and jackets and when people kept speeding and killing themselves in higher numbers we were blamed again so now your covert again but yet its still our fault people speed and kill themselves and our methods are not the answer. Geez, talk about lose lose.:(

Oh and as for public awareness, You need the Gardai to tell you speeding kills and to wear your seat belt? Did the pre-test, the actual driving test, the lessons, the multiple ads and plain common sense not explain it well enough? I dont mean to attack you but this is a pet hate of mine.

Our man in Havana

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

As for the original question, a petrol station is public not private and a laneway has an implied right of access (in the courts at the moment concerning S49).

Oh, somone caught Drink driving on a laneway, or turned off the road into his house?

I thought those issues were resolved in the 1994 RTA, in that the Gardai could follow a suspect all the way to the front door and beyond if nessasary with the aid of force?

Hobart

I have a couple of not totally unrealted questions. If they end up hijacking the thread, I will delete and post elsewhere.

1) Under the new offences that incur Penalty Points there is an offence which states that failure to leave appropriate distance between you and the vehicle in front will incur points and a fine. What is the legal distance and who determines that you were or were not keeping the appropiate distance, and how do they determine.

2) Why is parking a vehicle in a dangerous position a manditory court apperance?

Our man in Havana

1. This will be down to the subjective view of the Garda, based on speed of travel and weather conditions etc.

2. I don't know myself. This used to be always a fixed penalty of €19 as I did enough f**kers for this when I was a traffic warden.

Turner

Hobart wrote:

2) Why is parking a vehicle in a dangerous position a manditory court apperance?

The amount of old grannys / nervous drivers who have been decapitated by trailers off arctics being parked in hard shoulders with no lights or reflective markings in unreal.

Same as parking in the overtaking lane of a motorway to hop out of your car to relieve yourself. It has been done.

Serious offence, should require a court appearance.

Hobart

Chief--- wrote:

The amount of old grannys / nervous drivers who have been decapitated by trailers off arctics being parked in hard shoulders with no lights or reflective markings in unreal.

Really? Any stats for that? I'm not really doubting you, it's just, I've never heard of anybody being decapitated by trailers in hard sholders.

Bee

Hobart wrote:

I have a couple of not totally unrealted questions. If they end up hijacking the thread, I will delete and post elsewhere.

1) Under the new offences that incur Penalty Points there is an offence which states that failure to leave appropriate distance between you and the vehicle in front will incur points and a fine. What is the legal distance and who determines that you were or were not keeping the appropiate distance, and how do they determine.

2) Why is parking a vehicle in a dangerous position a manditory court apperance?

Hobart,

The new penalty points are so full of holes in the legislation that they will tie up the courts in knots and make plenty of money for my learned friends.

You have highlighted just two of the many issues that will be kicked out of court when challenged

Trust FF's Cullen to be so thick as to once again screw up necessary laws

Of course it is contemptible when you see so many mustachioed Gardai, leather clad astride their honda 50's, on safe roads usually hiding behind bushes holding their tools in their hands clocking up easy targets that will have no effect on road safety but only lead to further derision of their so called sound bites of we "increased our road penalty conviction, minister"

Until the Gardai get their fingers out and actually behave with professionalism, man their check points on the rural roads that are continously highlighted where the fatal accidents happen and perhaps park their squad cars outside of pubs at closing time the carnage will continue.

Forget about speed cameras good revenue raisers but damn all use in road safety, don't believe me? The Brits are learning the hard way

“Speed cameras don't reduce casualties — they are just for revenue generation.”
Chief Inspector Paul Gilroy, Northumbria Police

“We ought to be altering driver behaviour, rather than adopting a blanket speed camera approach that doesn’t effectively tackle the problem.”
Paul Garvin, Chief Constable, Durham Constabulary

“We are in danger of alienating the public. We must not lose public support. People are becoming cynical about what is going on with speed cameras.
I went all over Europe and the rest of the world to look at the problem. I was responsible for getting them approved here — but now I say it has gone too far.”
Peter Joslin, former Chief Constable of Warwickshire Police

Sparks

Hobart wrote:

Really? Any stats for that? I'm not really doubting you, it's just, I've never heard of anybody being decapitated by trailers in hard sholders.

I seem to recall that in the UK the life expectancy for someone standing on the hard shoulder was fifteen minutes.

Karlito, I am curious about one thing - why don't we see a greater Garda presence on back roads and around black spot areas? I stand a greater chance of passing a Garda speed check on the M50 where the road is designed for high speeds than I do on the Bray-Greystones road once I get off the M50/M11.

Eoin

Sparks wrote:

Karlito, I am curious about one thing - why don't we see a greater Garda presence on back roads and around black spot areas? I stand a greater chance of passing a Garda speed check on the M50 where the road is designed for high speeds than I do on the Bray-Greystones road once I get off the M50/M11.

Funnily enough, the Gardai had a tax check on this road - right on one of the bends. Am really quite surprised there wasn't an accident.

The speed checks through Kilmacanogue (N11) drive me mental, it is so easy to miss the "60" sign, even if you are familiar with the road. Fish in barrel stuff.

Sparks

The speed checks through Kilmacanogue (N11) drive me mental, it is so easy to miss the "60" sign, even if you are familiar with the road. Fish in barrel stuff.

True, though you can at least understand the reasoning behind the speed limit change there (even if it is incredibly poor design). It's the 80 kph limit a mile or so south at the north end of the glen of the downs that I can't understand. It's about a hundred yards long - and there aren't any roads joining the N11 at that point. Very odd.

However, not quite on topic, I suspect!

ambro25

Am with Karlito on this one, and commiserate on the lose-lose situation which he/she has painted out in his post.

After a week spent back home (FR) and quite a bit of driving during the Easter week-end, me who for years used to praise GB drivers for their courtesy and road manners and to despise the recklessness of my 'own kind' when visiting FR, I can vouch that fixed cameras and downright "harsh" repression (that has been ongoing in FR for the last year and a half or so) have worked wonders where all else has failed for decades: everybody respects speed limits, to my utter astonishment, and drivers have generally become nearly civilised to other road others.

It used to be the case on the A31 (densest motorway section in Europe at any point of the day, with most of the DE, NL, BE, LU and FR traffic going north or south transiting on it) that I'd feel like a turtle driving at the legal 130 kph, and that there would be -on average- 4 to 5 deaths a week on a 30 mile stretch between Nancy and Luxembourg.

These days, you feel a right bandit if you're 2kph over the new lower legal 110 kph limit, and 4 fixed cameras (twin-directions, mounted between central reservation barriers) have been setup on the darkest accident spots on that stretch of m'way. Stats are accidents/deaths -70% over 12 months, and speeding offenses -85% (cops are on there behind bushes everyday with mobile speedtraps as well, sometimes a coupla miles after the fixed speed cameras).

All that applies to A and B roads as well, where police presence has been dramatically increased. Drunk and speeding drivers are routinely made examples of (within reason - we're talking over the speed limit by at least 30kph+), with fines in the €000s, license revocations for at least 6 months and sometimes suspended sentences. Moreover, 'indulgences' have now nearly vanished (indulgence = nice meal for local captain and his missus ), and don't even entertain the thought if you;ve been done for drink-driving!

Yeah, it nearly feels a like Police State at times - but in terms of road statistics, they're winning and, compared to Ireland, they already were before they even began, so... can't make an omlet without breaking some eggs

And with regard to the OP, I don't know but they'd have my implied blessing if it allows them to both catch kn*bs doing 70 instead of 50 and prosecute them successfully.

MrPudding

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

In addition, Im baffled. We had covert enforcement and we were critised so we went with the big yellow 'here we are' checkpoints, cars and jackets and when people kept speeding and killing themselves in higher numbers we were blamed again so now your covert again but yet its still our fault people speed and kill themselves and our methods are not the answer. Geez, talk about lose lose.:(

Damned if you do damned if you don't. People will never be satisfied.

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

Oh and as for public awareness, You need the Gardai to tell you speeding kills and to wear your seat belt? Did the pre-test, the actual driving test, the lessons, the multiple ads and plain common sense not explain it well enough? I dont mean to attack you but this is a pet hate of mine.

I think people know very well what they are doing is wrong, they simply feel the risk of getting caught is too small to be considered. Personally I think this is worse. There was a post a while back discussing cameras to catch people running red lights. One of the poster believed that if a system was introduced there should be sign posted at the red lights to tell people they had to stop. :eek:

I think the vast majority of offenders know very well what they are doing. They are pi$$ed off because they think it is unfair that they got got and other didn't.

There is a perception that the rules of the road are simply not being enforced in a meaningful way.

With regards to spped detection on minor country roads. Why is there none? Is it for safety reasons?

MrP

ambro25

MrPudding wrote:

One of the poster believed that if a system was introduced there should be sign posted at the red lights to tell people they had to stop.

FFS! :mad: I take it that poster had never ventured out if its cave yet, never mind ridden in a motor vehicle?

MrPudding wrote:

With regards to spped detection on minor country roads. Why is there none? Is it for safety reasons?

Don't know if that would be considered a 'minor country road' (well, it ain't the M50, put it that way!), but the rare few times I've ventured South from Dublin, I've always seen at least 2 speed traps on the N11 (single carriage way portions) between Dub and Wexford. Methinks random breathalysing would be a good start on such 'minor country roads'...

Eru

Bond-007 wrote:

Oh, somone caught Drink driving on a laneway, or turned off the road into his house?

I thought those issues were resolved in the 1994 RTA, in that the Gardai could follow a suspect all the way to the front door and beyond if nessasary with the aid of force?

Its complicated, not just to do with our access rights. I will Pm if you want but its long.

Hobart wrote:

I have a couple of not totally unrealted questions. If they end up hijacking the thread, I will delete and post elsewhere.

1) Under the new offences that incur Penalty Points there is an offence which states that failure to leave appropriate distance between you and the vehicle in front will incur points and a fine. What is the legal distance and who determines that you were or were not keeping the appropiate distance, and how do they determine.

2) Why is parking a vehicle in a dangerous position a manditory court apperance?

Well if I may answer despite Bee's completely anal attempt at answering and I will be coming back to Bee in a minute.
1. The limit is defined under multiple road traffic laws and is asked multiple times in the driving test, cant you remember? Its too do with metres per mile speed and has specific allowances for weather. (just a hint and No, I havent a clue myself what the figures are )
2. Because the chances of finding the person that parked the car is slim. When a car is parked its nearly always empty and you would be surprised how many people will dance around a street corner rather than admit its their car the Garda is standing at.

Sparks wrote:

I seem to recall that in the UK the life expectancy for someone standing on the hard shoulder was fifteen minutes.

Karlito, I am curious about one thing - why don't we see a greater Garda presence on back roads and around black spot areas? I stand a greater chance of passing a Garda speed check on the M50 where the road is designed for high speeds than I do on the Bray-Greystones road once I get off the M50/M11.

well Sparks, you kinda answered your own question with your 15 minutes remark. Please also do a video search for crashes on motorways. You will see so many including cars crashing into police vehicles at checkpoints or when the police have someone else pulled over.

In regards smaller roads. First off let me say I dont understand why so many roads still have the 60mph limit, thats crazy INMO. However its safety, people have to accept a few home truths. 1. The Gardai are flesh and blood, a car will not bounce of my chest. 2. If your speeding thats your fault, not mine. Your not a child so therefore Im afraid on this one I place my life higher than yours. 3. Its not our jobs to save people from themselves, yes we do it but its not our primary function (is it the fault of the Gardai that Ireland has a high suicide rate?).

When it comes to small roads they are badly maintained, bladly lit and we have not got good weather for 10 months a year. Its simple too dangerous for the Gardai to stand on these roads like targets when all that will happen is we will get killed with you.

eoin_s wrote:

Funnily enough, the Gardai had a tax check on this road - right on one of the bends. Am really quite surprised there wasn't an accident.

The speed checks through Kilmacanogue (N11) drive me mental, it is so easy to miss the "60" sign, even if you are familiar with the road. Fish in barrel stuff.

Whats a tax check?

I dont drive the N11 but I dont understand the reduced limit on the N7 thats for sure. Gardai dont make the limits Im afraid.

MrPudding wrote:

There was a post a while back discussing cameras to catch people running red lights. One of the poster believed that if a system was introduced there should be sign posted at the red lights to tell people they had to stop. :eek:

Classic! Sorry I missed it.

Ah Bee, where to begin with you? I have really already countered your points but lets look in detail.

Bee wrote:

The new penalty points are so full of holes in the legislation that they will tie up the courts in knots and make plenty of money for my learned friends.

You have highlighted just two of the many issues that will be kicked out of court when challenged

Trust FF's Cullen to be so thick as to once again screw up necessary laws

Damn gardai and FF, when will they learn that Bee cannot be trusted to operate a motor vehicle? :rolleyes:

Considering you consider the law full of holes lets play a game Bee, I have caught you speeding, 150 in a 120 zome, M50. Your driving your wifes BMW. I have you at the side of the road and instead of a ticket I decide to summons you. Were in court, you have to defend yourself, go.........

Bee wrote:

Until the Gardai get their fingers out and actually behave with professionalism, man their check points on the rural roads that are continously highlighted where the fatal accidents happen and perhaps park their squad cars outside of pubs at closing time the carnage will continue.

Well then I guess you believe that a road traffic offence should be an automatic disqualification? Should I have the powers to take your car and license there and now? If already banned can I put an Uzi too your head? I know, how about a long piece of rope and a week at cowboy school so I can lasoo you as you go by. Again I damn those Gardai, you mean they dont sit outside the pub stopping YOU from drink driving but instead go off an patrol the streets, arrest your next door neighbour for beating his wife? Those bastards. Garda Jimmity Cricket where are you???

Sparks

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

I dont understand why so many roads still have the 60mph limit, thats crazy INMO.

Er.....
Hang on, I thought it was 80kph on all secondary roads now?

However its safety, people have to accept a few home truths. 1. The Gardai are flesh and blood, a car will not bounce of my chest. 2. If your speeding thats your fault, not mine. Your not a child so therefore Im afraid on this one I place my life higher than yours. 3. Its not our jobs to save people from themselves, yes we do it but its not our primary function (is it the fault of the Gardai that Ireland has a high suicide rate?).

But that doesn't logically agree with the stated goal of using speed guns to make the roads safer. Remember - I don't want you to save me from myself - I want you to save me from the head-on collision on the delgany to N11 road with the drunk driver doing 140kph after a few pints in the Wicklow Inn. Radar and laser speedguns on the M50 and random stops on the southern cross bypass won't do that.

Again I damn those Gardai, you mean they dont sit outside the pub stopping YOU from drink driving but instead go off an patrol the streets

Actually, is there a rule that says that Gardai can't sit outside a pub's car park and watch for someone stumbling to his car obviously under the influence and stop him as he leaves the car park?

Eru

Sparks wrote:

Er.....
Hang on, I thought it was 80kph on all secondary roads now?

hja ha ha, spot the city boy! OK 50 then.

Sparks wrote:

Er.....
Hang on, I thought it was 80kph on all secondary roads now?


But that doesn't logically agree with the stated goal of using speed guns to make the roads safer. Remember - I don't want you to save me from myself - I want you to save me from the head-on collision on the delgany to N11 road with the drunk driver doing 140kph after a few pints in the Wicklow Inn. Radar and laser speedguns on the M50 and random stops on the southern cross bypass won't do that.

Yes and no.The only way is too eventually get these people off the road, you wont clock up 12 points by just having Gardai standing around in plain sight. You need covert inforcement. On the other hand, by being visible it means that guy has to slow down, possible while hes passing you. A mix IMHO is the best however lets get something clear, we ultimately can only do so much and in terms of back roads, your asking me too get knocked down so that the driver might not hit you. Sorry, I aint taking that kind of a bullet for you.
All this still doesnt explain why people are complaining that the got stopped for speeding and 'annoy' people. How else can we do it?

Sparks wrote:

Actually, is there a rule that says that Gardai can't sit outside a pub's car park and watch for someone stumbling to his car obviously under the influence and stop him as he leaves the car park?

Well, I dont know where you live but lets take a small place for an example, theres 15 pubs in Templemore, 1 patrol car.

In Howth theres at least 10 pubs but at a max, 2 vehicles.

Who is responding to calls if they are picking 2 out of 10 pubs to sit outside? Its simple not realistic.

Our man in Havana

I can think of a better example, Tullow in Co. Carlow has 20 pubs and no full time Garda Station. Patrol Car has to come from Baltinglass or Carlow.

Its not realistic at all to have Garda cars sitting outside pubs.

Sparks

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

Sorry, I aint taking that kind of a bullet for you.

Wow.
Okay, you need to understand that that's a remarkably offensive attitude to my ears. If you won't accept the risk involved when you can choose where to stand and what security precautions to take, when you can set up the environment completely to keep you safe (who said you had to stand in the road?); what happens when I call 999 at three in the morning because someone's breaking into my house? What happens when you see me being mugged at knifepoint? What happens if there's a gang of thugs kicking me while I'm on the ground in the middle of O'Connell street? You're at far more risk then - does that mean I can't count on you to help me?

All this still doesnt explain why people are complaining that the got stopped for speeding and 'annoy' people. How else can we do it?

It's a case of perceived risk - if I'm doing 121 kph on the M50, it's as illegal as doing 81kph on a back road; but nowhere near as risky (given that most back roads are far to dangerous to drive at 80kph, let alone over the limit). So it's fustrating to know that people drive unsafely fast with impunity on back roads but we get tickets for doing something which, while being equally illegal, is far less risky. And since we never see the Gardai chasing down the idiot in the BMW Z4 who just spent the last few minutes driving at 120kph a foot from our rear bumper while blaring the horn and flashing the lights, before dangerously overtaking us at a blind hill and zooming off at close to 200kph... well, it's easy to feel irked.

Personally, I can think of at least one occasion where a dangerous driver nearly drove into me at high speed on the M50, in full sight of a Garda car less than fifty metres back, who seemed to do nothing about it. That kind of thing, where you feel personally at a very high risk of serious injury and see no repercussions; while getting fined and treated as a criminal for something that risked noone else; that's going to cause some pretty strong resentment.

While we're talking about this, by the way, what's the deal with the N7? Every time I've driven it recently, I set my C4's speed limiter to the 60kph limit on that road and everyone, HGVs and buses included, overtakes me on a stretch of road under heavy construction. This is an endemic problem - why isn't the limit being enforced there, where you have flyovers and other safe places for Gardai to stand with speed guns? Who decides deployments like this?

Who is responding to calls if they are picking 2 out of 10 pubs to sit outside? Its simple not realistic.

The problem then, is not the idea; but the lack of Gardai to implement it. Okay; but what's stopping it from being done at high-risk times? Friday nights during payday week. Any pub in kerry the night of a senior football match. That kind of timing.

MrSinn

I speed sometimes,if i get caught then its tough shiiit for me,the last thing i would be thinking is how they caught me,i would be thinking fu(k it i got caught!i seen 4 garda cleaning their patrol car in portlaois yesterday at a filling station,1 of them was using the power washer and the other 3 boys were standing there with hunky dorys crisps looking at the fat one cleaning the car,lets pick on the garda.

Eoin

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

Whats a tax check?

Seriously? I meant checking for tax.

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

I dont drive the N11 but I dont understand the reduced limit on the N7 thats for sure. Gardai dont make the limits Im afraid.

The Gardai may not make the limits, but I would presume they decide where to have speed checks. They can decide to have them in places with nonsensical limits, or in places where it is actually dangerous to speed - but with less traffic going through. Which scenario is actually adding any benefit, and which one will fill the quotas?

formatman

would that be the ONE patrol car that they have in Portlaoise and because of that some Garda were getting taxis to crime scenes !....

Don't blame them for looking after the car and keeping it clean !

seamus

Dragging one thing back, there's a massive difference between illegal parking and dangerous parking.

While ultimately any driver who is driving with enough care can manage to avoid a badly-parked vehicle, parking in certain positions can lead to death if some guy makes the wrong choice.

For example, you're on a single-lane national road (think N81) doing 100kph. You come up to a sweeping left-hand bend, with trees along the left hand side of the road, obscuring your view. Now, in theory you should slow down so you can stop within the distance you can see to be clear, but most people don't. It's only fields on your left, nobody's going to be pulling out from the left.
Next thing, there's an SUV. It's parked on your side of the road, while the driver has nipped out to take a pee. There's a truck oncoming, and you've reduced to about 90kph. If you react, you hit the truck, if you don't, you hit the SUV. Either way, you're boned.
Now, while certainly the driver takes some blame, the SUV should certainly not be free from it.

Eru

Sparks wrote:

Wow.
Okay, you need to understand that that's a remarkably offensive attitude to my ears. If you won't accept the risk involved when you can choose where to stand and what security precautions to take, when you can set up the environment completely to keep you safe (who said you had to stand in the road?); what happens when I call 999 at three in the morning because someone's breaking into my house? What happens when you see me being mugged at knifepoint? What happens if there's a gang of thugs kicking me while I'm on the ground in the middle of O'Connell street? You're at far more risk then - does that mean I can't count on you to help me?

I said I wouldnt take THAT bullet for you, to put it another way, should I die because your cat is stuck in a tree? Of course not, its about the risks V the benefits. Obviously I do my job and in that context I will PM you about this in more detail however speeding on a back road is not the same as someone breaking into your home or mugging you. there is no immediate danger to YOU from a speeder whereas there is a very real risk to you from a mugger and wihtout being needlessly bravado, yes I would place myself before that threat as Gardai have done countless times. Also, just because you dont see enforcement do not believe its not there. Deputy has spoken about prosecuting what he sees while off-duty. We dont need to have sirens and jump out of our cars waving badges all the time.

Sparks wrote:

It's a case of perceived risk - if I'm doing 121 kph on the M50, it's as illegal as doing 81kph on a back road; but nowhere near as risky (given that most back roads are far to dangerous to drive at 80kph, let alone over the limit). So it's fustrating to know that people drive unsafely fast with impunity on back roads but we get tickets for doing something which, while being equally illegal, is far less risky. And since we never see the Gardai chasing down the idiot in the BMW Z4 who just spent the last few minutes driving at 120kph a foot from our rear bumper while blaring the horn and flashing the lights, before dangerously overtaking us at a blind hill and zooming off at close to 200kph... well, it's easy to feel irked.

Again, dont believe because you dont witness it it doesnt happen and no one said theres no Gardai on backroads, just not checkpoints or manual speed checks as we would be red smears within 10 minutes. As for pefcieved risks, lines are drawn and they are called laws. what you consider to be not dangerous or less priority the next person will see the polar opposite. You may consider road traffic high priority, your neighbour may not see an issue at all but be steaming because the local kids are hanging around the street corner.

Sparks wrote:

While we're talking about this, by the way, what's the deal with the N7? Every time I've driven it recently, I set my C4's speed limiter to the 60kph limit on that road and everyone, HGVs and buses included, overtakes me on a stretch of road under heavy construction. This is an endemic problem - why isn't the limit being enforced there, where you have flyovers and other safe places for Gardai to stand with speed guns? Who decides deployments like this?

Actually I drive this quiet a bit, exactly how and where would you like them too deploy? Its a building site on both sides and theres barely room for the lanes as it is. Various senior management decide deployment, its not our own choosing if thats what you think.

Sparks wrote:

The problem then, is not the idea; but the lack of Gardai to implement it. Okay; but what's stopping it from being done at high-risk times? Friday nights during payday week. Any pub in kerry the night of a senior football match. That kind of timing.

OK, again the same problem, which pub out of the 15 would you like us too sit outside with our 1 patrol car? Or perhaps you dont realise the amount of public order calls happen at weekends, stolen cars, assaults, domestics? Friday is busy for MOST crimes not just drink driving.

By all means, ask McDowell for the 30,000 Gardai that would be required to man every pub and still walk beats and take calls. Ask him for an equal amount of vehicles as pubs in this country. You wont see me complain if we get them.

And by the way, Im not the press officer, Im not the commissioner, do not treat me like the Garda customer service office. Im just 1 person using the net in his own time.

Hobart

A lot of people seem to view speed limit's the same way my wife views her credit card limit. Neither of them are targets to be hit!

Just because the speed limit on the M50 is 120Kph, it does not necessarily follow, that at 3 in the morning, you have to drive at that speed.

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

Well if I may answer despite Bee's completely anal attempt at answering and I will be coming back to Bee in a minute.
1. The limit is defined under multiple road traffic laws and is asked multiple times in the driving test, cant you remember? Its too do with metres per mile speed and has specific allowances for weather. (just a hint and No, I havent a clue myself what the figures are )

Thanks for the answer. How is this implementable? How is a Guard ment to guage the distance in meters between one car and another? Are you, or will you be, issued with some tool to assist?

Eru

Hobart wrote:

A lot of people seem to view speed limit's the same way my wife views her credit card limit. Neither of them are targets to be hit!

Nice!

Hobart wrote:

Thanks for the answer. How is this implementable? How is a Guard ment to guage the distance in meters between one car and another? Are you, or will you be, issued with some tool to assist?

Some I suppose will be common sense, if the road limit of 80kmh means 15 metres distance but hes 2 metres behind you and as a result smashes into you then its not going too be hard to prove.

Having said that, you have too understand, Im not traffic corp. In fact traffic forms very little of my working day and as such, I do not get the same training that traffic corp personel get nor the equipment. I honestly dont know if there is training and/or equipment to test the limits.

Trojan911

bravo wrote:

But the gardai in the ditches, laneways, hiding behind bushes, really gets to me. Awareness and public visibility would be far more effective, and it is easy to see why its all seen as a money racket.

Can't say I agree with Gardaí jumping out of ditches / hedges etc or not wearing their high visibility vests / coats purely for safety reasons. But you must remember, if you are speeding then you will eventually get caught.

Awareness and public visibility, yes, I would go for that, and more advertising. But how much advertising can you do to get the message through? It is common knowledge that if you speed or drink drive or commit whatever traffic offence then you will be punished & if you are going to go down that road then take it on the chin if you are caught fair & sqaure. As the saying goes, do the crime, do the time....

TJ911...

Our man in Havana

Over in Eastern europe they use cardboard cutouts of police cars to slowdown speeders. A good idea imho.

Trojan911

Bond-007 wrote:

Over in Eastern europe they use cardboard cutouts of police cars to slowdown speeders. A good idea imho.

Yes, they were used in England for a stint to.

I like to use reverse psychology. When I see a car approaching at speed I'll flash the driver, my intention being to make him/her think there is a speed trap ahead of them when there is none. They always slow down. When I know there is a speed trap behind me I don't flash. Suckers


TJ911...

maidhc

Trojan911 wrote:

Awareness and public visibility, yes, I would go for that, and more advertising. But how much advertising can you do to get the message through? It is common knowledge that if you speed or drink drive or commit whatever traffic offence then you will be punished & if you are going to go down that road then take it on the chin if you are caught fair & sqaure. As the saying goes, do the crime, do the time....

I think people obey sensible laws quite willingly. E.g. most people dont steal that which they cannot afford, beat up people they dont like, nor drive down the wrong way of a motorway.

I think the drink driving thing will sort itself out in time as people change their attitudes, but I think many people feel speed limts are often unreasonable and for that reason are not all that keen on them or their enforcment. Although this was addressed to a degree by the metrfication (e.g. raised limits on motorways but 80k national limit), the local authorities should now use the powers they are given and make the limts more sensible.

The mechanisms are in place for special limits (30k?) outside schools and 120k on good dual carriageways which are currently limited to 100k. There seems to be a lot in inertia in the LAs about doing this though.

oceallachain

Bond-007 wrote:

I thought those issues were resolved in the 1994 RTA, in that the Gardai could follow a suspect all the way to the front door and beyond if nessasary with the aid of force?

gardaí cannot go beyond your front door even if you are locked drunk. They can arrest you up until they get to the front door though, however, they can only do this if they have already fromed the opinon that you are drunk. In other words if you were swerving all over the place and pulled into your driveway and ran to your door but the gardaí caught and arrested you then you would have a good defense in court in saying that maybe you are just a bad driver. In other words the gard had no way of knowing (or forming his opinion that you were drunk) while you were both on the public road. But if you poke to the gard at a checkpoint and then sped off whilst drunk he could then legally arrest you for drink driving because he had already fromed his opinion in a public place.

tabatha

the gardai seem to be able to do whatever they want. i was driving on the m50 the other night and it was lashing rain. there was a garda car behind me since i had got on. i was in front on him most of the way down. i was driving to the limit (120kmph) mabye a couple over but not over 130. anyway as he couldnt get by he pulled me over and told me that i was going over 100. i asked him if he meant km as he didnt work in miles per hour anymore and he got very ratty with me. he had the cheek to tell me i was going over 100 mph for most of my journey. firsty i pointed out that i was driving a 1.4 astra that was almost due for a service. it would be difficult enough im sure to get that speed (never tried though). second it was lashing rain and was dangerous and third why would i when i could clearly see a garda car behind me. i also asked him why it was that he didnt pull me over a long time before that if i was driving so dangerously. that really pissed him off. i also had my husband with me so he was witness to everything. anyway, he had to let me go as there was no proof of anything.

by the way, as we were talking a guy drove by with no lights on and this was about 10.30 at night. pitch black!! now thats dangerous!

Our man in Havana

So the opinion has to be formed in a public place? I find it strange that swerving all over the place is not a basis to form an opinion.

Our man in Havana

tabatha wrote:

the gardai seem to be able to do whatever they want. i was driving on the m50 the other night and it was lashing rain. there was a garda car behind me since i had got on. i was in front on him most of the way down. i was driving to the limit (120kmph) mabye a couple over but not over 130. anyway as he couldnt get by he pulled me over and told me that i was going over 100. i asked him if he meant km as he didnt work in miles per hour anymore and he got very ratty with me. he had the cheek to tell me i was going over 100 mph for most of my journey. firsty i pointed out that i was driving a 1.4 astra that was almost due for a service. it would be difficult enough im sure to get that speed (never tried though). second it was lashing rain and was dangerous and third why would i when i could clearly see a garda car behind me. i also asked him why it was that he didnt pull me over a long time before that if i was driving so dangerously. that really pissed him off. i also had my husband with me so he was witness to everything. anyway, he had to let me go as there was no proof of anything.

by the way, as we were talking a guy drove by with no lights on and this was about 10.30 at night. pitch black!! now thats dangerous!

I hope you took his shoulder number and made a complaint.

Trojan911

oceallachain wrote:

gardaí cannot go beyond your front door even if you are locked drunk. They can arrest you up until they get to the front door though, however, they can only do this if they have already fromed the opinon that you are drunk.

What happens in the event of a Personal Injury accident? Can they force/effect entry then?


TJ911...

Our man in Havana

Is not the case that the Gardai can enter hospitals to obtain speciemens of breath etc and compel medical persons to take said samples?

deman

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

there is no immediate danger to YOU from a speeder

What?????????:eek: :eek:

Hagar

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

Well, I dont know where you live but lets take a small place for an example, theres 15 pubs in Templemore, 1 patrol car.

With all due respect, who is in the pubs on Templemore?

vector

I was in some rural town (don't know the name) in Co Cork today heading from Killarney to Cork City. The 100 (or 80km) road becomes 50km suddenly (the decent road thins quickly) as it enters the built up area.

Right behing the 50km sign, I mean right behind it, it there were two motorcycle gardai checking speed. One had a tripod the other was sitting on a bike as it he would chase offenders?

I of course never break the law but I'd imagine that some others might actually pass the sign doing 60km as they your slow gradually, this is the exact fish in a barell situation people talk about.

oceallachain

Trojan911 wrote:

What happens in the event of a Personal Injury accident? Can they force/effect entry then?
QUOTE]
Yes this is different, providing you are talking about a hit and run. the gardai can enter a dwelling after a hit and run.

Swerving isn't a (sole) basis for forming an opinion because there's a differnce between bad drivers and drunk drivers. You'd be legally entitled to go in but if he has a good solicitor then you will be asked how the hell you you could possibly tell he was drunk from 50 yards away ya know -ya could hardly smell his breath

bbability

Lets get one thing straight here. Speeding motorists is one thing. Garda Speeding checkpoints are another. I have yet to hear or see a garda speed check outside a school at opening or closing time. I have yet to hear of or see a checkpoint where someone has lost their lives due to excessive speed. Let's look at the where the checkpoints are usually set up. Who decide's where they set up shop? Like last Sunday morning for example, outside Heuston Station. How many people have lost their lives on that stretch of road between 7am and 8am on a Sunday morning in the last 10 years. The same goes for the Navan Road. The only people you will find on the road at that time are people going to work and they are generally working for the hospitals, security services etc, etc. I don't think this process should be taken lightly. This decision should be made by a senior ranking officer (or is it?)
Having said that I would like to see the money thats generated from fines used in funding resources for gardai such a more specialised cars. I can't understand why we are so far behind our neighbours in europe on this issue. I believe the only way the cops will get on top of this issue is with proper resources such as driving marked and unmarked vehicles on EVERY stretch of road. Going to a judge with a video of a mororist driving fast, overtaking dangerously for a km or 2 (as we see oursevles every day) will imo bring more effective results and safer roads to this country. Catching people speeeding at the side of a long straight stretch of road will make people bitter and frustrated.

micks

i cant see it feasible to police back roads at 2 or 3 in the morning which is when the most accidents happen but there should be something there to deter people ie static camera'(gattso's??) even if they are dummies.Also i cant understand why they go to the bother of putting up the signs warning of accident black spots and dont use speed ramps or rumble strips or something like that .

Regarding the pubs - the gards dont have to sit outside to cut down on drink driving.1 car i to 10/15 pubs could easily be a deterant, i always find it amusing how a pub can have a full cark on a sat night yet no-one is drink driving in theory .i am driving 15 yrs and have NEVER seen a check point on a friday or saturday night. If there's greater risk of getting caught people wont take the chance.I think it was changed recently but up til a few months ago a gard had to form the opinion that you had drink taken - ie you had to be twisted or unlucky to get caught.I think now they can stop on the spot and breath test - i am sure karlito can confirm .Basically if the gards do 1 or 2 pubs every night of the weekend even only for 20min - 30 min in a town with even 20 pubs this will dramatically increase the chance of getting caught and then the risk wont be worth it . I understand its the busiest time all round for gards but partically night clubs need to be policed for drink driving and there's defo not too many of them to police

Eru

Bond-007 wrote:

I hope you took his shoulder number and made a complaint.

I doubt it, its a prime example of blaming the Garda.

Bond-007 wrote:

Is not the case that the Gardai can enter hospitals to obtain speciemens of breath etc and compel medical persons to take said samples?

Jesus No. If the doc doesnt think your well or fit enough too be tested then its not happening, in a hospital the doc is the expert, its his domain.

Hagar wrote:

With all due respect, who is in the pubs on Templemore?

The 5 or 6 thousand people that live there year in and year out and have no connection with the college. You are aware its ana actual town arent you? Its not just a College in a field.

micks wrote:

I understand its the busiest time all round for gards but partically night clubs need to be policed for drink driving and there's defo not too many of them to police

Folks, lets be clear on this. Theres 11000 pubs in Ireland. Somewhere in the region of 1000 nighclubs. Mix that with racetracks, hotels, social clubs, etc.

Now consider theres only 8000 active Gardai in the country. Somwhere in the region of 3000 working a particular shift.

Thats only 1 Garda per every 4 or possible 5 drinking emporiums. 1 Garda to police 5 pubs and clubs on a Saturday night means 1 Garda for at least 1000people that are in these 5 pubs and clubs. Do you realise we can only stretch to about 6 Gardai for the whole of Templebar and about 8 to 10 for the entire O'Connell Street, Quays, Parnell Street and surrounding spots. In rural areas you have 1 car with 2 or 3 Gardai for an entire rural town. Please folks, be realistic. We havent enough Gardai to watch each bar/club nevermind cars to chase drunk drivers.

Hagar

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

You are aware its ana actual town arent you? Its not just a College in a field.

I know, I was being a bit facetious but the general public do have the impression that Gardaí just never catch other Gardaí.

Kalitosway1978 wrote:

We havent enough Gardai to watch each bar/club nevermind cars to chase drunk drivers.

That is the sad truth. Nevertheless the public perception seems to be that there more people killed at night by drunks than during the day by speeders. Yet the resources can be found to enforce speeding regulations but not to enforce drink driving regulations. Why? Would it be to take in cash perhaps?

Sparks

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

Please folks, be realistic. We havent enough Gardai to watch each bar/club nevermind cars to chase drunk drivers.

No, but; why not pick a pub at random and sit outside it for a half-hour after closing hour once a week?

Eru

Hagar wrote:

I know, I was being a bit facetious but the general public do have the impression that Gardaí just never catch other Gardaí.


That is the sad truth. Nevertheless the public perception seems to be that there more people killed at night by drunks than during the day by speeders. Yet the resources can be found to enforce speeding regulations but not to enforce drink driving regulations. Why? Would it be to take in cash perhaps?

1. No you were being a smart ass but it didnt work

2. I clearly showed the reality, now how the hell can you compare a random speed check to catching every drink driver on the roads? A speed check requires 2 Gardai for 1 or 2 hours to catch 50 speeders. Those 2 Gardai can only catch 1 drunk driver in that time. You may as well say that we catch more speeders than murderers. Its a stupid comparison as they require completely different man power and time.

Eru

Sparks wrote:

No, but; why not pick a pub at random and sit outside it for a half-hour after closing hour once a week?

Because that 1 car is the only car in the entire town. It needs to be at other calls or possible at a checkpoint where many a drunk driver has been found and what idiots going to get into his car when the Gardai are watching? Also, dont you think other people will see the Gardai and make some discreet phone calls?

Hagar

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

1. No you were being a smart ass but it didnt work

No I wasn't. Don't get aggressive, you can't charge anyone with being "cheeky to a Guard" here. Have you ever charged a fellow guard with anything? Do you personally know anyone who has? I don't think so.

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

2. I clearly showed the reality, now how the hell can you compare a random speed check to catching every drink driver on the roads? A speed check requires 2 Gardai for 1 or 2 hours to catch 50 speeders. Those 2 Gardai can only catch 1 drunk driver in that time. You may as well say that we catch more speeders than murderers. Its a stupid comparison as they require completely different man power and time.

How else would you describe drunk drivers? Nothing stupid about the comparison. If you only caught 1 drunk driver a night I'd say it was a good night's work. Wouldn't you?

BTW What's the view like from that high horse?

Sparks

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

Because that 1 car is the only car in the entire town. It needs to be at other calls or possible at a checkpoint where many a drunk driver has been found and what idiots going to get into his car when the Gardai are watching? Also, dont you think other people will see the Gardai and make some discreet phone calls?

That's sort of the point of the exercise though - I'd rather see ten drunk idiots think better of trying to drive home from the pub because they saw the Gardai watching than one caught by you while doing so. And if the car is already in the town, then what will be the difference in time between going to a call from there and going to the call from the station?

Could the idea not even be tried for a half-hour or so a week for a week or two to see if it has any positive benefits rather than theorising about the possible failure modes without data?