Can I remove myself from UCDSU?

TheVan

Since the constitution guarantees the right to associate and the corollary, to disassociate......can I be a student in UCD and remove myself from UCDSU??

Note I don't actually plan on doing this....in fact I think I'm going to run for SU rep next year but its interesting!

Would I have to continue paying my contribution?

I'm sure an SU type has an answer....Singingstranger or Vainglory??

pigeonbutler

It's an interesting question alright, and one that has been raised many times on these boards. From the point of view of someone studying law (well B&L :P) like yourself it's particularly interesting. My view would be that registering as a student of UCD makes you a member of the Union so that you do have freedom of association, by becoming a student you solicit membership. But then what do I know about the legalities of it!

The_Minister

TheVan wrote:

Note I don't actually plan on doing this....in fact I think I'm going to run for SU rep next year but its interesting!

I was thinking this too....what year and course? *Sharpens Knives*

*runs to council chamber and marks his territory on the seat. AngelofFire jumps up and runs away screaming and soaking*

TheVan

No worries Firespinner.....I'm in 3rd B&L....I know who my rivals are already!!

In response to pigeonbutlers comment....as far as I know, such a compulsion would be illegal. Like saying that if you join a company you have to join the trade union. I'm pretty sure there has to be an opt-out option!

The_Minister

TheVan wrote:

No worries Firespinner.....I'm in 3rd B&L....I know who my rivals are already!!

*puts away knife* Wait!! How do you lean? *pulls out knife again*

TheVan wrote:

In response to pigeonbutlers comment....as far as I know, such a compulsion would be illegal. Like saying that if you join a company you have to join the trade union. I'm pretty sure there has to be an opt-out option!

I think that some companies have that.

Blowfish

Being brutally honest I would probably prefer not to be a member of the SU. I am curious as to if it is posible not to be though, because for some reason it is automatically assumed that when you join UCD, that you want to be a member, when in reality it isn't actually true.

TheVan

I would describe myself as centre but I suppose I lean a little right......

I would be a pragmatic common sense kind of guy!

hullaballoo

TheVan wrote:

I would describe myself as centre but I suppose I lean a little right......

I would be a pragmatic common sense kind of guy!

You're a freaking nazi the van.

I've expressed my concern about the issue of paying the membership fee before, and I think singingstranger had said that it was impossible to discern which part of the €750-whatever goes to the SU. I countered it by saying that I only have to pay the €63.50 for the SU because the government pays the rest for me, so I could thereby not pay the €63.50 and disassociate myself from the SU.

The question arises then as to what this means in terms of what I can and cannot do. Presumably I couldn't run in the union, nor could I vote. But could I still go to the SU shop, and drink in the bars, and do everything I could otherwise do, being a member? If not, how would it be policed? Would there be a photo beside the till in all SU establishments of me, emblazoned "DO NOT SERVE"?

Blowfish

hullaballoo wrote:

The question arises then as to what this means in terms of what I can and cannot do. Presumably I couldn't run in the union, nor could I vote. But could I still go to the SU shop, and drink in the bars, and do everything I could otherwise do, being a member? If not, how would it be policed? Would there be a photo beside the till in all SU establishments of me, emblazoned "DO NOT SERVE"?

I don't see why not, I regularly see lecturers using the SU shops and bars, and they obviously aren't part of the union

Vainglory

hullaballoo wrote:

You're a freaking nazi the van.

I've expressed my concern about the issue of paying the membership fee before, and I think singingstranger had said that it was impossible to discern which part of the €750-whatever goes to the SU. I countered it by saying that I only have to pay the €63.50 for the SU because the government pays the rest for me, so I could thereby not pay the €63.50 and disassociate myself from the SU.

The question arises then as to what this means in terms of what I can and cannot do. Presumably I couldn't run in the union, nor could I vote. But could I still go to the SU shop, and drink in the bars, and do everything I could otherwise do, being a member? If not, how would it be policed? Would there be a photo beside the till in all SU establishments of me, emblazoned "DO NOT SERVE"?

The 63.50 doesn't go to the SU. It goes to pay off the Student Centre loan.

Red Alert

You can probably find out the actual amount through a freedom of information request if you're that interested.

hullaballoo

Vainglory wrote:

The 63.50 doesn't go to the SU. It goes to pay off the Student Centre loan.

Oh right, so what's the Student Centre then?

singingstranger

hullaballoo wrote:

Oh right, so what's the Student Centre then?

That'd be the large building opposite the Church and the Science block.

besty

TheVan wrote:

No worries Firespinner.....I'm in 3rd B&L....I know who my rivals are already!!

I might come out of nowhere and wipe the floor with you!

hullaballoo

singingstranger wrote:

That'd be the large building opposite the Church and the Science block.

Oh right...sarcasm. Poor. Poor.

That large building opposite the Church and the Science block, otherwise known as...

Blowfish

hullaballoo wrote:

Oh right...sarcasm. Poor. Poor.

That large building opposite the Church and the Science block, otherwise known as...

Ag!

Dave!

Can someone not set up another union and people can join that if they're dissatisfied with their current one? Surely it's a little unfair/undemocratic for all students to be compelled to join the one union because they have the monopoly of student services (the trap, shop, etc). Reminds me, and yes I will indeed invoke Godwin's Law, of the Labour Front in Nazi Germany.

I do appreciate the difficulties that may arise with regards having to be a member of the particular union in order to avail of their services, but it still seems silly to be automatically a member of a group who's policies you don't agree with -- and to have to pay for it too.

neutral

You can't be made to join a Union. And you are entitled to set up your own Union with like thinking people. Not that the college would recognise another Union.

If you just wanted to leave the SU the college might hold on to the money and instead pay it into a Sports facilities fund or something on the basis that it's a fee for services rather than a Union sub.

So you'd lose the right to vote and run for election, but that's the only effect it would have on you.

The only reason people would leave the Union then is if being a member were to invlove them being associated with an entity they could not accept being associated with.

Some people might leave the Union if it was to back the invasion of Iraq, the reintroduction of the death penalty or the legalisation of abortion, since some people would be so morally opposed to one of those stances that they could not accept being a member of an organisation that supported them.

Blowfish

neutral wrote:

The only reason people would leave the Union then is if being a member were to invlove them being associated with an entity they could not accept being associated with.

Some people might leave the Union if it was to back the invasion of Iraq, the reintroduction of the death penalty or the legalisation of abortion, since some people would be so morally opposed to one of those stances that they could not accept being a member of an organisation that supported them.

I don't quite agree with that, because you are assuming people are interested in what the union does in the first place. Personally I would be likely to leave the union, simply because I couldn't give a crap about it. That may sound harsh, but in reality i've been in UCD for 3 years, and have yet to see any difference that the union have made. I don't disagree with any of its policies at all, I just don't see them making any sort of impact on my own student life.
I also don't believe that it is just me that feels that way, our class rep's election was interesting. We didn't have a class rep for 1st or 2nd year, and got on quite happily without one. The only reason we have one this year is because our student advisor made us elect one. The current class rep didn't actually want to be one, he was only elected because none of the rest of the class wanted it, and so decided that the best way to prevent themselves from being elected was to gang up on someone, and all vote for him.

Red Alert

The shop sells stuff cheap and also prevents centra and its ilk ripping us off.

pretty*monster

Blowfish wrote:

I also don't believe that it is just me that feels that way, our class rep's election was interesting. We didn't have a class rep for 1st or 2nd year, and got on quite happily without one. The only reason we have one this year is because our student advisor made us elect one. The current class rep didn't actually want to be one, he was only elected because none of the rest of the class wanted it, and so decided that the best way to prevent themselves from being elected was to gang up on someone, and all vote for him.

That's not your union rep, that's your rep for staff student consultiation w/in your school (often confused, cos the union rep has the right to be that rep, I'm the staff/student rep for 2nd philosophy modeII for example, but not for 2nd Irish, Sociology or Itallian, even though I'm their union rep, cos I don't actually do those subjects and it'd be pointless)

The_Minister

besty wrote:

I might come out of nowhere and wipe the floor with you!

Me or him?

Blowfish

pretty*monster wrote:

That's not your union rep, that's your rep for staff student consultiation w/in your school (often confused, cos the union rep has the right to be that rep, I'm the staff/student rep for 2nd philosophy modeII for example, but not for 2nd Irish, Sociology or Itallian, even though I'm their union rep, cos I don't actually do those subjects and it'd be pointless)

Ah ok, so we don't actually have a union rep then.

pretty*monster

Well ye probably do, just not necesserily one in your class (cos of the way the constituencies are drawn... they're being redrawn for next year though to create more reps per student).

Blowfish

pretty*monster wrote:

Well ye probably do, just not necesserily one in your class (cos of the way the constituencies are drawn... they're being redrawn for next year though to create more reps per student).

Really? I've never actually heard anything about electing one other than the staff/student type one. How would I actually find out? I'd be curious as to whether or not we do.

besty

Firespinner wrote:

Me or him?

Him.
Don't worry, I'm another B&L'er

pretty*monster

Blowfish wrote:

Really? I've never actually heard anything about electing one other than the staff/student type one. How would I actually find out? I'd be curious as to whether or not we do.

PM me your class and I can tell you who it is, or you can ask Deputy Dave

singingstranger

pretty*monster wrote:

PM me your class and I can tell you who it is, or you can ask Deputy Dave

Or just post them here and I'll look up the list!...

Blowfish wrote:

Really? I've never actually heard anything about electing one other than the staff/student type one. How would I actually find out? I'd be curious as to whether or not we do.

This would sort itself out when you tell us your course. In some cases a Rep will get their form signed by ten randomers without lecture addressing the class or anything; and then if nobody else submits a form then they get a seat on Council representing their constituency without their constituents ever getting to elect them.

Moral of the story: try and get involved - if you have a Rep who's been unopposed out of sheer apathy for a couple of years, they'll have a lot to answer for if anyone ever runs against them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_Student_Unionism

Have a read. It refers to Australia mainly, but still is interesting. Well, to someone like me!

Blowfish

Myth wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_Student_Unionism

Have a read. It refers to Australia mainly, but still is interesting. Well, to someone like me!

Yeah it is interesting, but i'm still wondering is it actually possible here?

Oirthir

Hmmm, collect the relevant number of signatures and make an amendment to the UCDSU constitution?

Have a situation whereby members can opt-out and be reimbursed by the Union?

It'd be interesting to see the turnout for that one!

Blowfish wrote:

Yeah it is interesting, but i'm still wondering is it actually possible here?

Anything is possible

Blowfish

Oirthir wrote:

Have a situation whereby members can opt-out and be reimbursed by the Union?

Sounds good! Where do I sign:)

pretty*monster

If you did opt out would you consider yourselves honour bound not to use the su shops, copy center, bars, night bus, etc?

Oirthir

pretty*monster wrote:

If you did opt out would you consider yourselves honour bound not to use the su shops, copy center, bars, night bus, etc?

I wouldn't plan on disassociating, was just offering an option. Hell, i'm not even in UCD, i'm ex-USI.

No SU shop in the country is only used by it's members, college staff always use them and I doubt a lot of them have lifted a finger to help their local SU.

It always surprised me that the people who are giving out about disassociation at local level are usually the first to call for their SU to leave USI. Is that not a wee bit of a double standard?

Blowfish

Blowfish wrote:

Yeah it is interesting, but i'm still wondering is it actually possible here?

No idea. I disagree with the idea of VSU anyways, but that's just me.

Font22

besty wrote:

I might come out of nowhere and wipe the floor with you!

i'd pay big money to see that

neutral

You don't need to change the constitution.

Anyone is free to leave the Union at any time.

The Union would be in big trouble if lots of people left, but I doubt many would bother. Unless of course you got a refund of some of your fees, in which case half the college would leave the Union.

Blowfish

neutral wrote:

You don't need to change the constitution.

Anyone is free to leave the Union at any time.

How do you go about it though?

neutral wrote:

The Union would be in big trouble if lots of people left, but I doubt many would bother. Unless of course you got a refund of some of your fees, in which case half the college would leave the Union.

That's true, but if people leave after first or second year, then surely they wouldn't have to pay the SU fees the next year, which might be more of an incentive to leave.

pretty*monster

Oirthir wrote:

No SU shop in the country is only used by it's members, college staff always use them and I doubt a lot of them have lifted a finger to help their local SU.

Of course, my question was one of honour (how wanky does that sound?). Would you (hypothetically) feel any guilt about availing of the union's services after implicitly rejecting the value of those services by opting out.

Oirthir wrote:

It always surprised me that the people who are giving out about disassociation at local level are usually the first to call for their SU to leave USI. Is that not a wee bit of a double standard?

Apples, oranges.
At local level it's a lot easier for ordinary students to change the way the union is run if they don't like it.
I'm personally in favour of a national union, but usi needs changing, but ordinary students are far lee empowered to change it, hense many (not me) see dasaffiliation as more practical.

Stabshauptmann

Blowfish wrote:

I don't quite agree with that, because you are assuming people are interested in what the union does in the first place...
...
... I just don't see them making any sort of impact on my own student life.

You've never used the shops or bar?:eek:
I myself use the trap,photocoppying, accomadation office and nitebus from time to time but recognise that a lot of students dont.
Then theres the balls, grindsfiles, bookshop, belfield FM and student activism which I dont get involved with.
But EVERYONE, has been to the bar at some stage before they leave UCD.

Out of all the things the SU does, student politics/activism is a small part, and you know this. I think you are just being childish in not admitting it and I think the greed for €50 is the only motivation for those seeking to leave the union.


I also don't believe that it is just me that feels that way, our class rep's election was interesting. We didn't have a class rep for 1st or 2nd year, and got on quite happily without one. The only reason we have one this year is because our student advisor made us elect one. The current class rep didn't actually want to be one, he was only elected because none of the rest of the class wanted it, and so decided that the best way to prevent themselves from being elected was to gang up on someone, and all vote for him.[/QUOTE]

Dave!

The current SU run the shop, bar, bookshop, etc., because they're the only one, that's the only reason. There's no other choice, because we're compelled to join, and there's no alternative at the moment. If there were 2 recognised SU's, then the other one would similarly provide amenities. They're only allowed have the bar there because the college lets them, and wants it there.

Stabshauptmann

I liked a lot of the economic arguements in that link. The position that best matchs my own opinion is:
"Furthermore, opponents of VSU liken fees to council rates or taxes - an unpleasant but necessary payment for those services which by necessity must be communally provided."

The union is more of a student council or government than a union in the tradtitional labour market sense. If you really feel the need to leave fine, but the SU doesnt take money from you, UCD does, and it invests money in activities and institutions that it sees as bettering the quality of student life/the student experience.

Blowfish

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

You've never used the shops or bar?:eek:

In three years I've used the bar once, and that was yesterday. I've been to the forum twice. I have never used the trap, photocopying, accomodation office, nitebus, niteline, any of the balls or ents events, bookshop, belfield FM or student activism. Admittedly I have used the shop a bit, but not enough to justify it, and I would have no problem in not using it if I wasn't a member of the SU.

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

I think you are just being childish in not admitting it and I think the greed for €50 is the only motivation for those seeking to leave the union.

Really? Well I don't see how, since my grant actually pays for it. I wouldn't get anything back if I left, or save myselft the howevermuch it is going to cost next year.

pretty*monster

DaveMcG wrote:

The current SU run the shop, bar, bookshop, etc., because they're the only one, that's the only reason. There's no other choice, because we're compelled to join, and there's no alternative at the moment. If there were 2 recognised SU's, then the other one would similarly provide amenities. They're only allowed have the bar there because the college lets them, and wants it there.

Why in god's name would we set up two unions? Disaffiliation from UCDSU is imo short-sighted and selfish, but setting up another union is nothing short of madness.

Blowfish

pretty*monster wrote:

Why in god's name would we set up two unions? Disaffiliation from UCDSU is imo short-sighted and selfish, but setting up another union is nothing short of madness.

Why do people say it's selfish? I'm quite happy with the union being there, and it does provide useful services to some people. If people want to get involved, and gain something out of it then great! I just feel that it shouldn't be obligatory to be a member.

And yes I agree two unions would be pointless.

Stepherunie

I agree, the only chance students have of getting things changed is by having a united voice, if there were to be two SUs in UCD it would be madness, there's enough problems at the moment trying to fight for students rights and ammendments to the introduction of modularisation - hell if i'm not careful i could have a very very watered down degree and will be kicking myself that i didn't take my place in uwe in england.

By having two SUs we'd be playing into the hands of brady and co. Divide and conquer so to speak, well students would be divided and the battle would be lost, right the SU isn't perfect, no point saying it's not, but do people really think that having two SUs will really make it better?

Stabshauptmann

Blowfish wrote:

In three years I've used the bar once, and that was yesterday. I've been to the forum twice. I have never used the trap, photocopying, accomodation office, nitebus, niteline, any of the balls or ents events, bookshop, belfield FM or student activism. Admittedly I have used the shop a bit, but not enough to justify it, and I would have no problem in not using it if I wasn't a member of the SU.
Really? Well I don't see how, since my grant actually pays for it. I wouldn't get anything back if I left, or save myselft the howevermuch it is going to cost next year.

Just so I get this right, you are admitting you use SU services, but you are not getting value for money, even though you arent actually paying for it.

Sounds like excellent value to me.

The college want to promotes a certain culture and improve the quality of life for the student body. They see a student governance body as the best way of doing this for many reasons and they choose to invest money in it. Thats their call.
The fact that you dont avail of these services (much) and dont like the culture the college is trying to promote does not give you the right to any money. Thats my first point, and a generic use of "you".

Since there is no refund to be had, if you want out of the union continue not to vote or use their services. If you want something official ask the president and the returning officer to have you struck off the books, explain to them you dont want any refund etc and I'd say they will oblige. And you'll be such a hero too :rolleyes:

Stabshauptmann

Blowfish wrote:

Why do people say it's selfish? I'm quite happy with the union being there, and it does provide useful services to some people. If people want to get involved, and gain something out of it then great! I just feel that it shouldn't be obligatory to be a member.

And yes I agree two unions would be pointless.

Well some possible explanations:
Its selfish if someone were being motivated just to get some quick cash.
It would be selfish if that person intended on becomeing a free rider, quitting the union but still using their services.
And it could be seen as selfish because you are putting your needs above the common needs of your fellow students.

Blowfish

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

Just so I get this right, you are admitting you use SU services, but you are not getting value for money, even though you arent actually paying for it.

Sounds like excellent value to me.

Actually i'm saying that I don't see the point in the government paying for a service for me which I don't use much.

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

And you'll be such a hero too :rolleyes:

I like the way you are trying to make me out as a 'fight the system' type person. All I am actually saying is that everybody who goes to college will have completely different experiences. Some will use the SU, and get great service out of it. Others won't. For anyone to assume that the SU will play a significant part in every students experience is bull. Therefore students should have the option to choose whether or not they should be involved.

GusherING

I don't use the army much. I don't think my taxes should be paying for it. :rolleyes:

hullaballoo

GusherING wrote:

I don't use the army much. I don't think my taxes should be paying for it. :rolleyes:

That's quite a good point.