Image of Mahmoud Abbas

ephraim

Image of Mahmoud Abbas

Ephraem.com is the foundation letter to this one.
A clearer understanding of this will be gained by first reading it.

What constitutes an Image? The definition of an image is a likeness of someone or something. It is something that represents a person or thing. If someone saw this image he would know exactly who or where it came from and for what purpose this image was created. Many Christians believe that in the book of Revelation an image will be created of the first beast that will both speak and kill all those who do not worship it. Their interpretation is that a statue will be erected of this beast and somehow it will be inspired to talk through some miracle of Satan. Maybe this interpretation was acceptable some years ago but at this very close proximity to coming of the Lord I do not see why they continue with these myths. All that can happen with this continued deception is that the lost souls who are left on earth to endure the Great Tribulation will have no knowledge to help guide them in their trying time. Many will be saved during the Great Tribulation so it is imperative Christians stop being politically correct and understand who their enemy is.

Revelation 13:11, "And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."

As stated in ephraem. com horns in the Bible mean kings or leaders of a country. The second beast arose on Jan. 25, 2006 in the election of Hamas to the Palestinian parliament. Many thought they would win enough seats to be a formidable opposition. No one, including myself, thought Hamas was going to win the election. Now they are in charge of the Palestinian Authority. Fatah which represented the first beast, Arafat and Mahmoud Abbas, has now lost power and moved aside for the appearance of the second beast Mahmoud Abbas and Hamas. Abbas (Fatah) is the President of the Palestinian Authority and will now share power with Hamas.

Revelation 13:12,"And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed."

Hamas exercises all the power of the Palestinian Authority and caused them to worship the first beast. This took place when Fatah, after losing the election, feared Hamas would take over the security forces and forced all security officials to swear an oath of allegiance to Mahmoud Abbas. The word worship should be translated as honor. The deadly head (nation) wound is Gaza and all the land given back by Israel to the Palestinians during the course of the Oslo Accords and the Roadmap for Peace.As land has been given back the deadly wound is being healed.

Revelation 13:14,"And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."

What is the Image of Mahmoud Abbas? Is it reasonable that a statue will be made of him and Muslims will worship it? Muslims would never worship Abbas; they revere their God and his Prophet. Mahmoud Abbas certainly does stand for something. This image has been portrayed in the news constantly since the election of Hamas. It is the reason Oslo even had a chance. It is exactly the opposite of what Hamas believes. Abbas stands for the right of Israel to exist. He stands for all the agreements signed between Israel and the Palestinians and he stands for the idea of a two-state solution. This Image of him is what is being pushed on Hamas. An Image Hamas will not accept.

Revelation 13:15," And he had power to give life unto the Image of the beast, that the Image should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."

Hamas and Mahmoud Abbas have power to give life unto the Image of the beast. They together can accept the principles of Mahmoud Abbas or reject them.
These principles are the basis for furthering the peace process with Israel. If these principles are ignored and not honored, many will be killed by Israel.
All of my interpretations and declarations concerning prophecy are based on things I have seen. I know there will be many things that I do not see. When Christians go home to be with the Lord I will be with them. Be prepared, Satan will soon be cast out of heaven to earth. He will be here for three and a half years. Let no man tell you he is God. All faith must be in Jesus Christ our Lord and he will appear after the tribulations to come.

Watchman Of Ephraim Hosea 9:8

MOGSA

An interesting thread ..... Why is it that no one else has raised a challenge to your perceptions?

Perhaps it is unfair of me to say that all of the issues contained in Revelations has come to pass but the return of our Lord Jesus. So .... imo, various anti-Christs have already appeared, are present and many who claim they are Jesus. Satan already rules the world, he is just not always visible in it at present. He is the god of this world which is why I am always careful to define my God as Jehovah (one of +17 biblical names) or, more importantly, 'the God of Abraham'.

You need to understand who rules the world and the need for them to control both sides of any conflict created by them in the first place. So Hamas is just the continuation of a suppressive element within an organisation where the rest of the people believe that they are serving their nation to the best of their ability.

I have met and spoken with a few of the Palestine youth. They couldnt understand why Arrafat died with such a large fortune. They are so frustrated that they feel that they cannot even trust God to take them out of their circumstances - hence the suicide bombings etc, egged on by some evil men claiming to represent Islam.

Remember that Israel is the other side of that suppressive entity. The Israeli state flag is not the emblem of David, but of the witchcraft era of Solomon and perpetuated by the 'people who run the world'. Take a look at the Rothschild's black version of the Israeli flag.

So, imo, the people of Palestine (and Israel) are dominated by an entity that controls both sides to suppress both peoples thru conflict, poverty, sorrow etc. We have the same thing here in SA.

Also the same as in the USA - ever notice how any third little political party gets smacked down in any election? The americans are so suppressed they dont even notice the 'illuminati' sign in their backyard - the statue of 'liberty'!!

At the end of World War II, they found the Ford vehicle manufacturing plants
unscathed - who ordered this protection? Who allowed Ford to put up factories in Nazi Germany?
Look at the King and Queen of Britain - they stayed in London? Everybody thought 'wow, they really care' -- What if they were the Ford factory equivalent?


Now some reading to get better background:

• Always the 'Cutting Edge' ministries website to cover your Revelations issues
• Scan the web for articles on who really runs the world - we all know about the Illuminati now try "the Black Pope' - that should make you shiver in the middle of summer!
• Always a good balance are David Ickes web and books. He is a a non-believer

Also remember, all people are good people - everything God makes is good. It is Satan's influence thru his demons in people that make them bad. Get rid of the demons and you'll get rid of the evil. Play the ball, not the man!
The thread on spiritual warefare, just started, should shed some good light on these issues in months to come.

The issues raised in Revelations are like code to some and clear as daylight to others. The key is to understand Jeremiah, Isaaih and Daniel etc first - Revelations is confirmation of these prophecies. If you have a problem with some of the Revelation events, lets discuss them - it would be interesting!

bmoferrall

I think a lot of (unfulfilled) prophecy can be understood better when you view the 'last days' as being the period from Christ's death until his second coming. In other words, just as we are living in the last days, so too were the apostles in Acts. Understandably, most Christians would like this second coming to coincide with their particular generation. However, generations have come and gone, many convinced theirs was to be the last one.

I've read some interesting interpretations of various prophecies, including this one identifying the last pope with the final AntiChrist. All such interpretations can be made to sound plausible, but are best taken with a pinch of salt. Admittedly, it can be fun speculating about these matters, provided one doesn't get carried away and lose sight of more important matters.

As I see it, the second coming is as likely to take place in 2000 years as it is likely to take place next week. Having said that, I believe a lot of interesting, and possibly significant, developments have taken place in recent years: the re-formation of the state of Israel and the gathering of its peoples from all over the world, the growing threats from Israel's neighbours, Hamas' improbable ascension to power, the global village, televangelism and the consequent proliferation of false prophets, the rise and fall of extreme cults, the apparent rise in frequency and severity of natural disasters, etc.

I'm sure a lot of folk thought the end was at hand during the Six Day and Yom Kippur wars; likewise, during world war II. I think we can at least say with certainty that Israel will be a focal point when the last cards are played.

MOGSA

bmoferrall wrote :

I think a lot of (unfulfilled) prophecy can be understood better when you view the 'last days' as being the period from Christ's death until his second coming. In other words, just as we are living in the last days, so too were the apostles in Acts. Understandably, most Christians would like this second coming to coincide with their particular generation. However, generations have come and gone, many convinced theirs was to be the last one.

Interesting observations - remember there have been many anti-Christs as Jesus said there would be.

I would like to debate which of the prophecies you think are unfilled in terms of Revelations other than the coming of Lord Jesus which He said that even He did not know. Is this the right thread for this, Moderator?

bmoferrall

MOGSA wrote:

Interesting observations - remember there have been many anti-Christs as Jesus said there would be.

Yes, I realise that. The article I linked to above argues that the papacy represents a long line of anti-Christs, the last in line presumably being especially significant. (If you have read the article) I would be interested to hear your observations on the theories put forth by this man (ex-Catholic priest) - I note from your first post that you may have some sympathy with his thinking.

I would like to debate which of the prophecies you think are unfilled in terms of Revelations other than the coming of Lord Jesus which He said that even He did not know. Is this the right thread for this, Moderator?

To be honest, MOGSA, I haven't studied the issue enough to form my own detailed thoughts; I'm pretty new to all this stuff (I'm hopelessly ignorant of the OT, for now) and would probably just end up regurgitating other people's ideas. Given the variety of theories put forth, it's clearly an inexact science - though I accept there may be especially discerning observers who can interpret these things quite accurately. I will try to find time to read up on the subject over the coming weeks. Don't expect debate from me (maybe others?) but I will comment as best as I can.

I've met Christian folk who say all major prophecies, bar the second coming, have already been fulfilled (I believe the exact dating - before/after 70AD - of apostle John's writing of Revelation may be significant here?). Another Christian friend, who is closely associated with a group called (iirc) 'Friends of Israel', is convinced that there will indeed be a final battle in 'Armageddon' between Israel and forces representing all the nations of the world, as sketched out in Revelation (moreover, he would argue that the re-formation of the state of Israel was prophesied in the OT). I guess my cursory reading of Revelation would concur with this view, a view that has evidently captured the imagination of the world at large, so I would be interested to hear your objections to it.

I must say I have a lot of sympathy for the view that Israel will be a major player in the final machinations; that seems to make sense given their history with God? The ongoing, and escalating, political turmoil in the region surely lends support to this argument?

As for Matthew 24, I guess most of this is as applicable to the time of the apostles as it is applicable to today:

You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come

BrianCalgary

I led a study on the book of Revelation a number of years ago. A difficult study to say the least.

I came to the conclusion that the book is written in three different tenses, past, present and future. I use the NIV.

The past is spoken of during times of pause btween the sixth and seventh. Satan is cast down from Heaven being recounted.

The future is spoken of regarding Christ's second coming and the new Heaven and Earth.

The present with regards to the letters to the seven churches.

I still think that the seals, bowls, thunders and trumpets have yet to occur.

There is no use in trying to identify the anti-christ. The whole of western society is anti-christ. The whole of muslim society is anti-christ.

My final message is to make sure that you are right with God, that you have accepted Christ. Then whatever is to happen you will be in His service and end up in His holy presence for eternity.

The timing of Revelation is a great inhouse debate that will help in your growing relationship with Christ.

MOGSA

Thanx to both of you for the elegant responses. They say that in the event of atomic explosion, place your head between your knees and kiss your butt good bye!

Well, it looks as if (in terms of world affairs etc and the various anti-christs) we have reached that stage. Of course we must be right with Jesus at any moment in our lives because we could be taken at any time.

The sole purpose of raising the issue with the prophecies is that we are called to evangelize. So many people discount the Bible and yet it is the most accurate book ever in terms of history, geography etc etc. How do we show people these facts?

When you take those incredible prophecies (like Daniel and his 1260 days for the Catholic Church - later linked into Revelation) and link them all together, you can justify the other truths in the Bible where people want tangible proof of God's Word.

This is what I am talking about! Some people see the Bible as an antiquated book, suitable for yesteryear, demanding something relevant to modern society. I find the unraveling of these prophecies as well as God's own daily hand in my life more enthralling than any TV series or detective novel etc!

BrianCalgary

I received an objection to my use of 'anti-christ' in a previuos post.

Let me explain the usage in the context. Anything that isn't pro-christ as God and the redeemer of mankind and argues that He is not. Where societies put Him down as anything less than who He is is anti-christ.

I was not accusing anyone of being the anti-christ. Nor would I as staed in the same post: there is no use in trying to identify the anti-christ.

lostexpectation

is the OP not just loooney spam?

BrianCalgary

lostexpectation wrote:

is the OP not just loooney spam?

it could be looked upon as such. However, throughout history people have tried to identify th eevents of Revelation, especially the anti-christ.

In recent years it has been Ronald ______ Reagan (can't remember his middle name but it has six letters) meaning 666, for the letters of his name and he recovered from a gunshot wound.
The papacy is identified as such with letters on his staff that show 666 in roman numerals.

If it sparks discussion on end times theology, then let's go. :cool:

bmoferrall

MOGSA wrote:

The sole purpose of raising the issue with the prophecies is that we are called to evangelize. So many people discount the Bible and yet it is the most accurate book ever in terms of history, geography etc etc. How do we show people these facts?

When you take those incredible prophecies (like Daniel and his 1260 days for the Catholic Church - later linked into Revelation) and link them all together, you can justify the other truths in the Bible where people want tangible proof of God's Word.

This is what I am talking about! Some people see the Bible as an antiquated book, suitable for yesteryear, demanding something relevant to modern society. I find the unraveling of these prophecies as well as God's own daily hand in my life more enthralling than any TV series or detective novel etc!

Prophecies and their fullfillment should help fortify the faith of thoughtful Christians - after all, the life and resurrection of Christ were the fulfillment of numerous OT prophecies.
As with miracles, non-Christians will presumably have no difficulty discrediting prophecies, or at least giving non-supernatual explanations for them.
I agree that it's a fascinating subject. The fate of Israel is particularly intriguing to me; the attention it gets world-wide is grossly disproportionate to its tiny size, and surely more than coincidental.

bmoferrall

BrianCalgary wrote:

If it sparks discussion on end times theology, then let's go. :cool:

Sure we could all do with a breather from the Evolution/Creation toings-and-froings

lostexpectation

BrianCalgary wrote:

it could be looked upon as such. However, throughout history people have tried to identify th eevents of Revelation, especially the anti-christ.

In recent years it has been Ronald ______ Reagan (can't remember his middle name but it has six letters) meaning 666, for the letters of his name and he recovered from a gunshot wound.
The papacy is identified as such with letters on his staff that show 666 in roman numerals.

If it sparks discussion on end times theology, then let's go. :cool:

but as I can tell and I presume you agree the man wasn't talking methaphorically, and discussing "end time theology" like its not just methaphorical is looney.

MOGSA

lostexpectation wrote:

but as I can tell and I presume you agree the man wasn't talking methaphorically, and discussing "end time theology" like its not just methaphorical is looney.

Hi ... that's just the point. There are some very learned people in this overall thread, not many sharing or even understanding my viewpoints - they would make sure that I am laughed out of here, in total embarassment. Also, I havent hidden behind some pseudonym so my friends in my area know who I am.

Most of all, I have committed to glorifying God in all that I do. Now I understand that at this point that it could be 1 in a 100 times - but I'm trying

So please dont get personal, nobody's 'looney' and curses like that come back many times to you instead.

Instead, knowing that we would only get maybe 50% right in terms of quick response (the rest we would have to pray about first) why dont you put your money where your mouth is and challenge with some good, interesting questions on the subject?

lostexpectation

MOGSA wrote:

Hi ... that's just the point. There are some very learned people in this overall thread, not many sharing or even understanding my viewpoints - they would make sure that I am laughed out of here, in total embarassment. Also, I havent hidden behind some pseudonym so my friends in my area know who I am.

Most of all, I have committed to glorifying God in all that I do. Now I understand that at this point that it could be 1 in a 100 times - but I'm trying

So please dont get personal, nobody's 'looney' and curses like that come back many times to you instead.

Instead, knowing that we would only get maybe 50% right in terms of quick response (the rest we would have to pray about first) why dont you put your money where your mouth is and challenge with some good, interesting questions on the subject?

I was mainly talking about the first guy...

MOGSA

lostexpectation wrote:

I was mainly talking about the first guy...

Then please accept my apology - this was not clear. But, what about some questions, in any case?

Suff

What a load of Bull!!

if they are taling about the anti-Christ...well you have to remember that the Jews did not believe in Christ as the messiah, they are still waiting for their messiah to arrive.

In Islam we believe that the messiah that they will follow is the Anti-Christ.

Now keep this to mind that this anti-Christ will have followers from all faiths and religions,...Jewish, Christian ,Muslim, Hindu or whatever.

The Anti-Christ will have powers that would make people believe in him however the true believers will know who he is, there are signs and descriptions of him:

- he will be Jewish, short in hight, green eyes however the right one is damaged, will appear first in northren Iran. people will recognise him try to kill him, he'll disappear. will reappear in near the sea of galilee there he will claim himself as "Christ". Half the world will follow him. his people will ask him to enter Mecca, however it is forbidden on him to enter that city by GOD. he will reach it, call on its people to follow him, there will be people who will answer. (The Prophet Muhammad PBUH said that will be the day when Mecca will be cleansed of hipicrits)

Muslims at the moment are waiting for the person called or will be known as the Mahdi (the guided one) who will reunit the believers across the world to face the anti-christ. (he also have signs to his appearence)

the armies of the believers will be split into three:
1 The countires of the Two Seas
2 The countires of the two Rivers
3 The Sham (Syria, Lebanone and Jordan)

The first two will be killed and defeted the third will be surrounded.
At Dawn on the last day of battle in Damascus, on the east minirat in the Omayyad mousqe Christ (PBUH) will appear to the believers.(Christ also have a known description of his return)
Christ (PBUH) will join the belivers in a prayer before leading them into the final battle where he will kill the Anti-Christ/ False Christ and break the Cross.

Christ (PBUH) will live for fourty years. he'll be burred in Madina currently in Saudi Arabia.
At the moment there are 4 graves in the Prophet's Grand mousqe. three are filled, one Holds the Prophet (PBUH) the other two are for two of his disciples and the last is for "Eesa" Christ (PBUH)

Thats what Muslims believe in. (short version)

To me it's looks like it might happen in our life time...(I hope it won't), as a number of the signs that were fortold 1400 years ago are becoming a reality... like the Gulf war, the creation of the state of Israel, Jews in Power, the Killing in the name of GOD, the list goes on and on.....

bmoferrall

MOGSA wrote:

...now try "the Black Pope' - that should make you shiver in the middle of summer!

Link 1 Link 2
Are these links representative of the 'Black Pope' phenomenon?
To be honest, I lost the will to live after a few pages of the first link.
Here's the opening sentence of the second link:

Peter-Hans Kolvenbach, the General of the International Military Order of the Society of Jesus, commonly known as “the Black Pope”, ordered the attack on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon on Tuesday, September 11, 2001

Is this stuff really credible? All strikes me as rather fantastical...and I was educated by Jesuits (seemed like a harmless enough bunch at the time anyway ).

I believe there are indeed satanic influences permeating society at all levels. However, I'm more inclined to the view that such disparate folk (link 2) are unwitting pawns in a game played out in another realm, rather than conscious co-conspirators bent on world domination (Invasion of the Body Snatchers?).
I'm sure there are delusional dabblers in the occult who believe they're major players in some grand satanic conspiracy. I'm not convinced their ripples will spread too far beyond the bounds of their own self-importance though.
I could of course be wrong about all this .

bmoferrall

The Jesuits -- 1540 Their Purpose And Oath

The purpose of the Jesuit Order, formally established by the Pope in 1540, is to destroy the Protestant Reformation. They call it the Counter-Reformation. Nicolini of Rome wrote:

"The Jesuits, by their very calling, by the very essence of their institution, are bound to seek, by every means, right or wrong, the destruction of Protestantism. This is the condition of their existence, the duty they must fulfill, or cease to be Jesuits." [Footprints of the Jesuits, R. W. Thompson, 1894]


Extract from Jesuit's Oath

To this end the professed Jesuits have obligated themselves with an oath, part of which was published in 1899, and reads:

"I do now renounce and disown my allegiance as due to any heretical King, Prince or State, named Protestant, or liberals, or obedience to any of their laws or magistrates or officers.

"I do further declare that the doctrine of the churches of England and Scotland, of the Calvinists, Huguenots, and other of the name Protestant or Liberals, to be damnable, and they themselves to be damned who will not forsake the same.

"I do further declare that I will help, assist and advise all or any of His Holiness' agents, in any place where I shall be, in Switzerland, Germany, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, England, Ireland or America, or in any other kingdom or territory I shall come to, and do my utmost to extirpate the heretical Protestant or liberal doctrines, and to destroy all their pretended powers, legal or otherwise." [Errors of the Roman Catholic Church, 15 Contributors, 189


Ceremony Of Induction And Extreme Oath Of The Jesuits
(Given to a Jesuit of minor rank when he is to be elevated to a position of command.)


Superior Speaks:

"My son, heretofore you have been taught to act the dissembler among the Roman Catholics to be a Roman Catholic, and to be a spy even among your own brethren: to believe no man, to trust no man. Among the reformers, to be a reformer; among the Huguenots (French Protestants) to be a Huguenot: among the Calvinists, to be a Calvinist: among the Protestants (those who protest and disagree with the Roman Catholic institution), generally to be a Protestant: and obtaining their confidence to seek even to preach from their pulpits, and to denounce with all the vehemence (violent emotion) in your nature our Holy Religion and the Pope; and even to descend so low as to become a Jew among the Jews, that you might be enabled to gather together all information for the benefit of your order as a faithful soldier of the Pope.

"You have been taught to insidiously plant the seeds of jealously and hatred between states that were at peace, and incite them to deeds of blood, involving them in war with each other, and to create revolutions and civil wars in communities, provinces and countries that were independent and prosperous, cultivating the arts and the sciences and enjoying the blessings of peace;

"To take sides with the combatants and to act secretly in concert with your brother Jesuit who might be engaged on the other side, but openly opposed to that with which you might be connected;

"Only that the church might be the gainer in the end in the conditions fixed in the treaties for peace, and that the ends justify the means.

"You have been taught your duty as a spy, to gather all statistics, facts and information in your power from every source: to ingratiate yourself into the confidence of the family circle of Protestants and heretics of every class and character, as well as that of the merchant, the banker, the lawyer, among the schools and universities, in parliament and legislatures, and in the judiciaries and councils of State, and to 'be all things to all men', for the Pope's sake, whose servants we are unto death.

"You have received all your instructions heretofore as a novice (one who has no training), a neophyte (a newly ordained priest), and have served as a coadjutor (worked as a helper), confessor and priest, but you have not yet been invested with all that is necessary to command in the army of Loyola and in the service of the Pope.

"You must serve the proper time as the instrument and executioner as directed by your superiors; for none can command here who has not consecrated (made secret or holy) his labors with the blood of the heretic; for 'without the shedding of blood no man can be saved.'

"I, _____, now, in the presence of Almighty God, the blessed Virgin Mary, the blessed Michael the Archangel, the blessed St. John the Baptist, the Holy Apostles, St. Peter and St. Paul and all the saints and sacred hosts of heaven....

"I, furthermore, promise and declare that I will, when opportunity presents, make and wage relentless war, secretly and openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Liberals, as I am directed to do.

"That when the same cannot be done openly, I will secretly use the poisoned cup, the strangulation cord, the steel of the poniard (a dagger) or the leaden bullet, regardless of the honor, rank, dignity, or authority of the person or persons, whatever may be their condition in life, either public or private, as I at any time may be directed so to do by any agent of the Pope or superior of the brotherhood of the holy faith, of the Society of Jesus." [Double-Cross: Alberto, Part 2, 1981]

Hmm, interesting stuff...my interest is piqued.
I may read some more now

MOGSA

bmoferrall wrote:

I believe there are indeed satanic influences permeating society at all levels. I'm not convinced their ripples will spread too far beyond the bounds of their own self-importance though.
I could of course be wrong about all this

Please understand that the satanic governance of the world looks like a pyramid with dozens of associated societies occupying one or more building blocks on each side. They control the world in no uncertain terms right now.
When US presidents and RCC Popes can be assasinated within a living generation, then you know how powerful that person is that controls the pyramid for their ultimate master.

As I said on previous posts, like all secret societies there are 'cells' within cells. I am firmly convinced that a friend of mine who has been in the freemasons for almost 30years is entirely innocent of any of the horrible activities ascribed to them or even knowledge of them. Equally people educated in general by the Jesuits. My family members for the same reason are trying to be good Christians within the Catholic Church. Good people, all of them.

But if you have held a senior position in any of these then you are definitely 'in the know'! Which is why I view Bill Clinton being closer than brother to Nelson Mandela locally for some time, as suspicious.

Bill Clinton is also the guy who publically thanked the Pope for dismantling communism. We have the ANC here who dismantled apartheid. Funny, in both cases I thought God did it! Now you know which side Bill is on.

I will place a new post under spiritual warefare about '19degrees' just now probably because it belongs there under witchcraft. It may also give you food for thought.

Take a scan thru the web and look at two people that God has saved recently from unimaginable circumstances i.e. positions of power where they would normally be killed by the CIA etc before being able to leave.

• Former Satanist, Doc Marquis
• Black Magic Illuminist, Ms Cisco Wheeler

I shall be (the rest of the community will be relieved to know this!) focussing on the spiritual warefare thread from now on which I kinda forced as a new thread with Brian's assistance. Without this understanding, the rest are pretty sterile from my point of view and area of interest. But, of course, this has to include 'end time' issues.

MOGSA

Suff wrote: What a load of Bull!!

Your comment is reasonable in terms of your view of the world. Clearly, I have a different worldview, but one that respects yours, nevertheless.

Your background to the end times from your perspective was fascinating .. I had never encountered those details before.

I have a copy the Q'ran but have not read it in detail to be able to compare it authoritively with my Bible. Of course, I have checked on Seedat's dissentions with the Bible and am at peace with my findings.

Up to now, perhaps in ignorance, I have yet to discover any issue in the Q'ran about how to live your life for God that is not in the Bible. Clearly the Bible does not view the world from your Prophet's vista. So your end time issues are brand new to me.

I understand that this thread is from a Christian perspective but if prophecies from the Q'ran differ from the Bible, it would certainly be interesting from my perspective to understand them - but this would be for the others to decide.
My concern is that it should be kept to this because of anomilies between the two books already. I mean it is essential that Abraham pleads with God about Sodom etc and the third angel stays behind to do so - in my Q'ran there are only two angels in the first place, so this could get tricky if not guided properly, if at all.
Then we may have to contend with a few versions of Islam on top of the thousands of christian church versions.

robindch

> Also remember, all people are good people - everything God makes is good.
> It is Satan's influence thru his demons in people that make them bad.

...which begs the question of whom you think made this Satan guy, if god couldn't have done it since he only made good things.

But the rest of your posting is quite interesting -- I'd be interested to hear how many people you believe hold similar views around your neck of the woods.

bmoferrall

MOGSA wrote:

I shall be (the rest of the community will be relieved to know this!)...

Dunno about that MOGSA. While understandably hard to swallow for some, your contributions are, imo, thought-provoking and worthwhile.

But if you have held a senior position in any of these then you are definitely 'in the know'!

Do you believe the pope is a 'puppet' or a 'puppeteer' in all this?

Which is why I view Bill Clinton being closer than brother to Nelson Mandela locally for some time, as suspicious.

Lovable old Bill is part of all this too?
.
.
.
Alright, alright, I promise to keep an open mind :cool:

MOGSA

robindch wrote:

> Also remember, all people are good people - everything God makes is good.
> It is Satan's influence thru his demons in people that make them bad.

...which begs the question of whom you think made this Satan guy, if god couldn't have done it since he only made good things.

But the rest of your posting is quite interesting -- I'd be interested to hear how many people you believe hold similar views around your neck of the woods.

He was good, in the beginning, the most beautiful of the angels etc. Did God also give him the choice to choose or reject Him like He gave His human children? What turned him or allowed him to turn bad is a question that I've also asked myself. How did he achieve or retain such enormous godly power is another question. did God deliberately allow this and the Garden of Eden issue? Clearly I have no clue and dont expect to have one until I am able to have all my questions answered one post-life day.

I suggested in the previous posting that, if you are interested, you should first read a non-christian's version of the world government and events which appears to be astoundingly detailed - David Icke's web site and books, especially 'The Matrix'. His research has been intensive, well presented, but very intense too.

Then lets debate the matching of these issues to biblical issues to prove/disprove our interpretation of such convergence within the context of biblical prophecy. Of course it would have to be in macro terms, the day2day running of modern governments and Bill Clinton's visits to Nelson Mandela etc are hardly detailed in the Bible.

Now clearly I have been somewhat down the road already, hence some of my provocative statements to see what pops up in other threads. How others see the situation is something I would also like to gauge as well.

I think Brian should make the choice as to where this thread should be - I originally thought that it complemented spiritual warfare but now think it could convolute it.

Zombrex

ephraim wrote:

Hamas and Mahmoud Abbas have power to give life unto the Image of the beast. They together can accept the principles of Mahmoud Abbas or reject them.

Its the great thing about most religious texts is that they are so vague that they can be fitted to nearly any event or person you want.:rolleyes:

ephraim

Wicknight wrote:

Its the great thing about most religious texts is that they are so vague that they can be fitted to nearly any event or person you want.:rolleyes:

Can you give me another example?

robindch

> Can you give me another example?

How's about the 'Revelation'?

robindch

> Did God also give him the choice to choose or reject Him like He gave
>? His human children? What turned him or allowed him to turn bad is a
> question that I've also asked myself.

Well, you can't have it both ways. You must believe that either (a) god is capable of creating evil, or (b) that god didn't create satan or that (c) what you think is evil, actually isn't. At the moment, you believe contradictory dogmas.

ephraim

robindch wrote:

> Can you give me another example?

How's about the 'Revelation'?

Let me clarify my question. Can you give me another example of how current events can be interpreted from Bible prophecy. Not just this will happen, and then this, and then this etc. Give me an event that coincides with the prophecy. The prophecy should line up and fall like dominoes once you have it right. I have heard alot of interpretations. This just didn't come to me in a dream, but after continuous watching of the events. Ephraim

lostexpectation

ephraim wrote:

Let me clarify my question. Can you give me another example of how current events can be interpreted from Bible prophecy. Not just this will happen, and then this, and then this etc. Give me an event that coincides with the prophecy. The prophecy should line up and fall like dominoes once you have it right. I have heard alot of interpretations. This just didn't come to me in a dream, but after continuous watching of the events. Ephraim

He was the one asking you do that. :rolleyes:

ephraim

lostexpectation wrote:

He was the one asking you do that. :rolleyes:

I have already done that. He was saying that religious texts are so vague that they can be interpreted to mean any number of events or people. I was just wondering what he was eluding to. In other words, does he have an example of such an interpretation. Something that has happened and can be shown in the prophecy. Ephraim

lostexpectation

ephraim wrote:

I have already done that. He was saying that religious texts are so vague that they can be interpreted to mean any number of events or people. I was just wondering what he was eluding to. In other words, does he have an example of such an interpretation. Something that has happened and can be shown in the prophecy. Ephraim

eh he is saying that... Something that will happen can not be shown in the prophecy.

And as an example Ill point to your first post, I bet maybe you had a diatribe written up just as you thought Fatah were going to win the election, and then Hamas won because the ordinary palestians were so pissed off at their corruption and their leaders keeping money for themselves they kicked em out... bet that wasn't predicted in the Ephraem

robindch

> He was saying that religious texts are so vague that they can be
> interpreted to mean any number of events or people.

Try a quick scope through some of the pop-eyed burblings on the Rapture-Ready(tm) board:

http://www.rr-bb.com/

MOGSA

robindch wrote:

Well, you can't have it both ways. You must believe that either (a) god is capable of creating evil, or (b) that god didn't create satan or that (c) what you think is evil, actually isn't. At the moment, you believe contradictory dogmas.

Really? Take 'black holes' (astrologically speaking of course ) We know they are there, apparently some even know how they are formed - but why, what is their purpose? I have no need of, and dont know, the answer to either this question or those implied within your statement.

My concern is that of maintaining sanctification and assisting others to do the same.

If a lion started stalking me in my garden, I would only stop to consider where it came from and how it got there when it was captured or dead. The same thing with Satan.

Your statement is hardly likely to bait me - its too deceptive - and while I am sure you have all the scientific answers to the black hole issue, I am not God.

So why dont you rather stick to the current thread/theme thats developing here, and challenge with OT prophecies that you meaningfully believe have no context or 'are vague' or are absolute 'nonsense'? Then we can debate on a mature and open basis.

Zombrex

ephraim wrote:

Can you give me another example?

Any of the doomsday reports around the year 2000 would be example. All these religous followers had a different interpretation that the end of the world was coming, with the "prophacy" fitted to everything from political movements in the US to oil price in the Middle East. And surprise surprise the world didn't end.

Quick google -
http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/skeptic/predictions.shtml
http://www.abhota.info/end5.htm

They aren't all religious in nature, but a lot of them are. And it just goes to show a lot of people are constantly convinced the world is about to end .. and then it doesn't..

MOGSA

robindch wrote:

> Can you give me another example?

How's about the 'Revelation'?

Thats a premature remark based on the fact that this thread is still developing and you are already pronouncing on it?


Lets try again!
I can find no fault with the aims and objectives of 'The Irish Skeptics Society' to which you belong. In fact my admiration for Irish history is profound because it has been well recorded and has continuity over centuries (maybe that should be millenia) which others dont. I'm still getting to grips with it, delving only into parts of relevance for my research at present.


I have several sets of questions about Irish history that maybe I could get answered by yourself. One of these sets is about Jeremiah.

What can you tell us about Tara, the prophet Jeremiah and the 'Stone of Scone' in your own words? Is it true, false or what? am I asking the wrong person?

This is not a loaded question because I have only read about various claims, not tried to verify them until now.

ephraim

robindch wrote:

> He was saying that religious texts are so vague that they can be
> interpreted to mean any number of events or people.

Try a quick scope through some of the pop-eyed burblings on the Rapture-Ready(tm) board:

http://www.rr-bb.com/

I guess it all depends on what you consider a credible explanation. I don't consider most explanations credible. I was just asking for a credible analysis of the facts as seen by a learned individual. With that I will drop my inquiry into his statement.

MOGSA

robindch wrote:

> He was saying that religious texts are so vague that they can be
> interpreted to mean any number of events or people.

Try a quick scope through some of the pop-eyed burblings on the Rapture-Ready(tm) board:

http://www.rr-bb.com/

Thanks for pointing me to this site. I glanced thru the various threads and postings. Some I also find a load of crap but the 'End Times Chat' section was quite within reason - imho.
I am sure we will get around to the end time prophecies regarding China and Russia over the next few weeks.

MOGSA

bmoferrall wrote:

Do you believe the pope is a 'puppet' or a 'puppeteer' in all this? :

Yep! In other words both. Most of the Popes thru history have been identified as one of many ACs (anti-christs). Who else could assasinate a Pope and get away with it but .....?

Lovable old Bill is part of all this too?

of course, and George, Billy Graham

try:

http://www.bushisantichrist.com/

and the satanic bloodlines : http://www.asis.com/~stag/uspres.html

and

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/shadowlands/6583/et042.html


and even Prince Charles:

So take a look at his Royal Crest containing the beasts of Revelation:

http://dccsa.com/greatjoy/crest.html

and worse:

http://www.think-aboutit.com/aliens/ac.html

But of course, this is all silly nonsense?


Very few things are what they appear to be - originally I thought conspiracy theories were bull...... until David Icke and then my own experiences.

lostexpectation

may i ask how you found this site and what prompted you to first post

MOGSA

lostexpectation wrote:

may i ask how you found this site and what prompted you to first post

Are you asking me? Mine was the previous post!

If so, then firstly track my original posts - there are not many of them.

Secondly my prompting came from an entity that knows of your setbacks in life and is the only answer to them - but of course, you dont believe in the God of Abraham. :cool:

lostexpectation

MOGSA wrote:

Are you asking me? Mine was the previous post!

If so, then firstly track my original posts - there are not many of them.

Secondly my prompting came from an entity that knows of your setbacks in life and is the only answer to them - but of course, you dont believe in the God of Abraham. :cool:

do you realise how offensive that is, even among all you nonsense politness??

MOGSA

lostexpectation wrote:

do you realise how offensive that is, even among all you nonsense politness??

Firstly, you gave the impression that you did not believe in the God of Abraham, Secondly, if you have not had setbacks in life out of all the people across 'boards' then you are indeed unique.

Thirdly once you know the difference between divination and discernment in spiritual terms then I could tell you that my God shows me a bit about most people that I post to. Not details, but enough to feel compassion.

If you still find this offensive, then I sincerely apologise for offending you.

Zombrex

MOGSA wrote:

Secondly, if you have not had setbacks in life out of all the people across 'boards' then you are indeed unique.
...
If you still find this offensive, then I sincerely apologise for offending you.

I don't think it was the set backs part, more the "and is [God] the only answer to them" bit that was a tad offensive.

A lot of non-religious posters to this forum are, while not agreeing with the beliefs, at least polite about people believing in them. If someone strolled into the Christianity thread telling you all that you are dislussional for believing in nonsenes "fairytales" they would probably be banned for breaking the charter and quite rightly too

It isn't too much to expect in return that the I-feel-so-sorry-for-you-that-haven't-found-God-yet self-rightious is kept to a minimum.

You may believe that all strength in life comes from a supernatural god. Lots of people don't, lots of people do just fine without a belief in a God. That might be hard for you to understand, you might not even believe it. It doesn't really matter. But they don't seek or require your pity.

MOGSA

Wicknight wrote:

I don't think it was the set backs part, more the "and is [God] the only answer to them" bit that was a tad offensive.

A lot of non-religious posters to this forum are, while not agreeing with the beliefs, at least polite about people believing in them. If someone strolled into the Christianity thread telling you all that you are dislussional for believing in nonsenes "fairytales" they would probably be banned for breaking the charter and quite rightly too

Nice one! This is exactly what your responses have been throughout your posts. 'Everything' is nonsense according to you, effectively implying that we are all lying when, in reality, we are trying to have a discussion about something that is very tangible to us, especially the real life experiences.
Your approach is very dismissive.

The difference between some of us and your side of the fence is that we were also once 'non-believers' and can now evaluate both sides. The fact that God has not called you does not invalidate our relationship with Him.

In fact we had to have open minds in the first place to break thru the 'my forefathers were Anglican/Catholic for 200 years therefore I must do the same' comfort-zone mold.

We have all been searching for answers and it is our open minds that have allowed us to get where we are - which is nowhere according to you. We, on the other hand, are satisfied because we know that we know.

Of course we dont know all the answers! We profess to worship a mighty God who operates in many more dimensions than we do - He gave us more than sufficient guidelines in the Bible to become operationally competent on earth. We dont need to be able to originate life or count the stars nor place God in a 'box' to quantify Him.

It isn't too much to expect in return that the I-feel-so-sorry-for-you-that-haven't-found-God-yet self-rightious is kept to a minimum.

You may believe that all strength in life comes from a supernatural god. Lots of people don't, lots of people do just fine without a belief in a God. That might be hard for you to understand, you might not even believe it. It doesn't really matter. But they don't seek or require your pity.

Your statements are not correct.

• I am not self-righteous - to be so would be contrary to the teachings I follow. I am on the Christian thread and can talk about issues here from a Christian pespective which is why I dont go on other threads to cause 'noise'.
• I know most people have difficulting in relating to, or believing in, God as stated several times in my posts. I dont find it hard to understand as it is already accepted. What is your point?
• I have no pity for the ungodly. They have heard and can weigh the consequences of their actions the same as everyone else - it's their choice - have I not said this many times until now?

If this mighty God of mine gives me discernment about most of the other persons posting, including you, then this is given whether you accept it or not. This is about compassion, not pity - an entirely different entity.

And compassion is something we all need to have, unless we are really oblivious to the real world around us.


In the recent past this 'discernment' has saved actual lives of people instead of being unable to assist due to ignorance. The difference between this and all the theoretical debates is that Christianity is a practical lifestyle with real issues.

It also goes for some other religions that I cannot agree with, but respect nevertheless. Asiaprod would not be a buddhist if he had not been searching for practical realities and answers outside of his original environment in Ireland. His personal set of moral values, including compassion, is evident and better than most, as is his ability to intellectualise about higher level issues.

Theory is great but one cannot live alone. Selfishness is one of the great problems in this world; what do you do for your fellow man?

In fact, reviewing the postings, it is strange that you never rise to any of the challenges. You throw in lots of other author's views, ignore challenges and dogmatically refuse to acknowledge that we have any rights as Christians to have beliefs on the Christian thread as you attempt to refute each one!

Your statement "telling you all that you are dislussional for believing in nonsenes "fairytales" " should remind you of this selectiveness and of your own approach.

Zombrex

MOGSA wrote:

'Everything' is nonsense according to you, effectively implying that we are all lying when, in reality, we are trying to have a discussion about something that is very tangible to us, especially the real life experiences.

I've never claimed "Everything" is nonsense. You on the other hand have claimed repeatable that I am claiming "Everything is nonsense" despite the fact that any time you do I have re-explain my position, which you apparantly ignore. I don't even knon what you mean by "Everything"

I have also never said anyone is lying about anything.

MOGSA wrote:

Your approach is very dismissive.

Its not my apporach. Science, by its nature, is very dimissive of treating personal accounts as evidence.

You might feel the presence of God and therefore believe accounts in the Bible. Thats great, but it ain't science or evidence.

MOGSA wrote:

I am not self-righteous - to be so would be contrary to the teachings I follow.
...
I have no pity for the ungodly.

I let this go at the time, but if you are going to claim that your posts aren't bordering on self-righteous...

MOGSA wrote:

"On a non-sarcastic and reconciliatory basis, I do feel sorry for you and I am sure that we could start a prayer pettion to stand in the gap for you."

It was actually after I said "No thanks I'll pass:rolleyes:" that you started claiming that "To you everything is nonsense".

You will notice that you said that in response to me, not the other way round. Which is why I claimed you seem unable to understand the atheist point of view. It certainly isn't "Everything is nonsense"

MOGSA wrote:

This is about compassion, not pity - an entirely different entity.

Compassion towards people who don't require or seek your help is "pity"

MOGSA wrote:

Selfishness is one of the great problems in this world; what do you do for your fellow man?

Ok, I admit that I might be reading your posts all wrong. But damn you make it hard when you write things like this. Are you (and I really hope you are not) implying I'm selfish? I hope that "you" in that sentence is the general "you" and not specific to me.

MOGSA wrote:

It is strange that you never rise to any of the challenges.

Which challanges would that be? I will "rise" to any challenges you like

MOGSA wrote:

You throw in lots of other author's views, ignore challenges and dogmatically refuse to acknowledge that we have any rights as Christians to have beliefs on the Christian thread as you attempt to refute each one!

You have the right to believe anything you like. I don't remember ever saying you don't.

But are you saying you have the right to never have these beliefs challanged when they step into the realms of history or science? To be never challanged on a public internet bulliet board?

MOGSA wrote:

Your statement "telling you all that you are dislussional for believing in nonsenes "fairytales" " should remind you of this selectiveness and of your own approach.

That is something that was said on the Athiest forum a while ago and it was used as an example by the mod of the Atheist forum of what is not allowed in the Chritistainty forum, just as I did. Its not his or my position. And I think you already know that.

lostexpectation

A lot of non-religious posters to this forum are, while not agreeing with the beliefs, at least polite about people believing in them. If someone strolled into the Christianity thread telling you all that you are dislussional for believing in nonsenes "fairytales" they would probably be banned for breaking the charter and quite rightly too.

And Im quite willing to discuss theology, without believing it is literal aslong as there is some semblance of 'moral tale' there and most of the regulars on the board can discuss it both in terms of theology and philosophy, and I think most of the them realise there is nothing in the bible about Mahmoud Abbas only in that it is a book with many many narratives that can apply to many situations, as history repeats itself.

Im still waiting to here your thoughts on the Palestinian elections...

which definition of ungoldy is yours MOGSA

un·god·ly Audio pronunciation of "ungodly" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-gdl)
adj. un·god·li·er, un·god·li·est

1. Not revering God; impious.
2. Sinful; wicked.
3. Outrageous: had to leave for work at an ungodly hour.

I am not self-righteous - to be so would be contrary to the teachings I follow

It might be contrary to your teachings (and it is not a good thing for anybody to be), but that doens't mean you are not self-righteous...

MOGSA

Wicknight wrote:

I have also never said anyone is lying about anything.

Not outright, you have alluded to statements being lies often. I note that I am not the only one where a statement is dismissed as 'nonsense'.

Dont hide behind this one! Flexibility is a great asset even if it is just to acknowledge points of view of others. "I cant relate" would be great instead of "nonsense"! Maybe we should now have an acronym 'ICR' for either position

Its not my apporach. Science, by its nature, is very dimissive of treating personal accounts as evidence.

What else is there but personal accounts? Refer to my previous posts : An x-ray shows a large spinal fracture after a horse riding accident - the doctors were wrong??

And what about the pictures of the aftermath of a recent AK47 shooting involving my son? You do realise that it took us hours to position all the empty cartridges for the camera so they looked as if bursts of fire came from the various guns?

I think you, not science, are dismissive because it doesnt all fit in a box.

I let this go at the time, but if you are going to claim that your posts aren't bordering on self-righteous...

Facts, not self-righteousness!

Compassion towards people who don't require or seek your help is "pity"

This is a disturbing statement ..... I need to let this one go and be judged by the community.

Are you (and I really hope you are not) implying I'm selfish? I hope that "you" in that sentence is the general "you" and not specific to me.

I can see from your posts that you are an idealist but how would I know if you are selfish? Idealism is not a bad thing and the thought occured to me to ask you in public what it is that you do for your fellow man?

Because most of us are very considerate of our fellow man, this is not just a christian domain ... there is no doubt that Asiaprod (I am not trying to pick on you, just using you as an example!) has strong feelings on this as a non-christian. I repeat the question to you.

Which challanges would that be? I will "rise" to any challenges you like

Ok.... the first challenge is to respond to a previous post and list the OT prophecies that are 'nonsense' to you and explain briefly why you think so. Later we can deal with text that does not make sense to you. This would feed into the current thread for discussion.

The second challenge is to provide your own definition of 'respect', not one found in the dictionary - your own words. I will shortly bring this issue up in the spiritual warfare thread as respect is an integral part of understanding spiritual warfare.
This will not be a contest nor an attempt to embarass anyone, because your definition is bound to be an acceptable 'world' view. Publish it and I will then publish my definition as an illustration of where the differences in approach are, if any.

The third challenge is to inform the thread community what qualifies you to state in your signature : 'This post was written for the universal improvement of mankind'. I have a genuine interest in what your qualifications are.

The fourth challenge is to answer my question about your fellow man.

Remember, I didnt offer to meet challenges, you did! And, please dont take forever, we need to move on the spiritual warfare side before the next solstice.

You have the right to believe anything you like. I don't remember ever saying you don't.

Then why challenge my beliefs if I am entitled to them. As an ex-non-believer I have a strong understanding about your belief system and my response is that those are your choices, I cant change them. I can only publish my base-line.

But are you saying you have the right to never have these beliefs challanged when they step into the realms of history or science? To be never challanged on a public internet bulliet board?

Science was created by man for all the right reasons - this is a Christian thread to discuss Christian issues, not be sidetracked by non-believers. These issues dont fit into a box scientifically and to debate that is sheer madness. As far as history and the Bible is concerned then this is a reasonable proposition for debate and you are going to provide some input with the first challenge hey?

That is something that was said on the Athiest forum a while ago and it was used as an example by the mod of the Atheist forum of what is not allowed in the Chritistainty forum, just as I did. Its not his or my position. And I think you already know that.

No, how would I know? In, fact I strongly believe in fairies, ghosts, re-incarnated people, werewolves, vampires and the like. In fact in all the demonic manifestations, such as 'familiar spirits', of these entities. I also believe in fallen angels.

We will get around to all of these if I have my way in the spiritual warfare thread - but you shouldnt participate unless you operate in the spiritual realm.
This means that to deny existence of any of the issues to be discussed would not be meaningful. Be aware.

MOGSA

lostexpectation wrote:

Im still waiting to here your thoughts on the Palestinian elections...

Is this for me? If so then read my post on the 'both sides' issue.

which definition of ungoldy is yours MOGSA

There are only two gods, one the God of Abraham and the other Satan (the god of this world) in my terms as stated previously. If I say ungodly then I refer to anyone who does not adhere to my God's requirements of them.
People are free to choose their god.

It might be contrary to your teachings (and it is not a good thing for anybody to be), but that doens't mean you are not self-righteous...

Hey, play the ball, not the man - isnt this the message? If I state where I want to be with my God, or how I should behave, then this cannot be self-righteousness. If I deem myself superior to you then this would be - but I am just on the narrow road to Jesus the same as everyone else - often falling off and getting back on - no more, no less - as stated several times already.

If for some strange reason you got on the same road it could be miles ahead of me.

I cannot judge you but I can judge your actions. To judge your actions I need a reference point - mine is the Word of God - the Bible.

HTH

Zombrex

MOGSA wrote:

Not outright, you have alluded to statements being lies often.

I not sure I remember ever doing that.

You seem to assume I must be calling someone a liar because you seem to only accept there are two possibilities to a religious story, either the person is telling the true and everything happened exactly as he/she said it did, or they are lying on purpose.

What you fail to see is the third, most likely possibility, that the person believes what he thinks he/she saw, is being honest in is recounting, but is mistaken in what he thinks he say or experience.

You yourself must actually realise this since you say you have respect for other religions, but I assume you don't actually believe the stories of the Quar'an or other non-religious texts. Do you believe that the followers of a religion like Islam are purposefully lying to you about their experiences of Allah?

MOGSA wrote:

Flexibility is a great asset even if it is just to acknowledge points of view of others.

MOGSA the only time I remeber using the term nonsense is in response to some very illogical attempts at distorting a scientific theory to fit within a Biblic story. The logic being used was nonsense, and I stand being me saying it is nonsense.

MOGSA wrote:

What else is there but personal accounts?

Well for a start there are multiple independent accounts. Then there is external verifiable evidence that can be independently verified and examined.

MOGSA wrote:

An x-ray shows a large spinal fracture after a horse riding accident - the doctors were wrong??

And what about the pictures of the aftermath of a recent AK47 shooting involving my son?

MOGSA I've no idea what you are referring to so how you expect me to comment is beyond me. Do you just expect everyone here to have a detailed accounts of your families medical history?

MOGSA wrote:

You do realise that it took us hours to position all the empty cartridges for the camera so they looked as if bursts of fire came from the various guns?

I've no idea what event you are referring too. If this links back to an earlier post I apologies, I have not read it

MOGSA wrote:

Facts, not self-righteousness!

You feeling sorry for me is not a "fact"

MOGSA wrote:

This is a disturbing statement ..... I need to let this one go and be judged by the community.

Pity is defined by sympathy for the suffering of others. If you are the only one who thinks a person is suffering, and that person doesn't think they are suffering themselves, it is not compassion it is pity.

MOGSA wrote:

I repeat the question to you.

Do you want a list of charities I donate too? How about references from my friends?

MOGSA wrote:

Ok.... the first challenge is to respond to a previous post and list the OT prophecies that are 'nonsense' to you and explain briefly why you think so.

All of them? Because last count over a third of the OT deals with prophecies.
http://www.bible-prophecy.com/otprophecies.htm

Can I not just say I don't think anyone can see into the future, therefore all prophecies, be they in the Bible or not, are at the most educated guess work and at the most stabs in the dark.

MOGSA wrote:

The second challenge is to provide your own definition of 'respect', not one found in the dictionary - your own words.

I assume you mean in relation to religious teaching.

To me religious respect is recongising that someone has the right to believe or practice any belief they want, so long as it falls within the law. You have the right to believe anything you like, and no one should tell you that you cannot believe in something or ask you to denounce an religious idea that you do believe in. No one should be censored from expressing there religion (within the law) or writing or posting about it.

MOGSA wrote:

The third challenge is to inform the thread community what qualifies you to state in your signature : 'This post was written for the universal improvement of mankind'. I have a genuine interest in what your qualifications are.

That was the sub-title of Jonathan Swift's "A Tale of Tub".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tale_of_a_Tub

I like the ironic tone of it.

MOGSA wrote:

Then why challenge my beliefs if I am entitled to them.

You are entitled to your beliefs. But if you post them on an internet discussion board, especially as facts, are you surprised that this is challanged?

If you cannot stand behind your beliefs don't post them on the public internet

MOGSA wrote:

No, how would I know?

I don't expect you to, but I assumed it was clear from the sentence structure that I was not putting forward that postion as an acceptable post in the Christianity forum. In fact I was using it as an example of what is not an acceptable post in the Christianity forum.

lostexpectation

MOGSA wrote:

Is this for me? If so then read my post on the 'both sides' issue.

There are only two gods, one the God of Abraham and the other Satan (the god of this world) in my terms as stated previously. If I say ungodly then I refer to anyone who does not adhere to my God's requirements of them.
People are free to choose their god.

And people are free to choose no GOD. (It is required that you recognise that). Even in the christianity forum which is a subsection of reality.