Docklands East Station?

Transport21 Fan

There is still a CIE owned site available for a large multi-track/platform terminal staton in the docklands which could if developed properly fullfill all the requirement whch the Sherriff Street Bridge pre-fab was supposed to, but alas...

Behind the Point sandwiched between there and a brick wholesalers is a fairly big railfreight yard which leads on to Alaxandria Tramway. There is more than enough space here for a proper Docklands stations to provide all the slots and capacity for Maynooth/Navan and the d-Connector. The site still connects with all the rail lines at Church Road junction and will also have a Luas station on its doorstep in a few years. So integration happens for free.

The land all around this location is being snapped up by developers are the expansion of Dublin moves eastwards. This site provides a location for a developer-built large station for the dockands which will be properly integrated with Luas. It would also have good road access for buses via the DPT and the East Link Bridge.

If te PDs idea of moving the commerical port to Balbriggian and the new heart of Dublin idea of theirs becomes a reality (and let's be honest just by sheer momentum this is already happening - then a site for a major docklands rail terminal with proper Luas integration and multu-railroute access is still there for the taking - if the planning and lobbying started now we could get a real solution such as an office block with the station in the basement and not the Temp Pre-Fab arrangement at Sherriff Street.

It's still all to play for in the Docklands in terms of a major heavy rail passenger terminal. Just the battleground has shifted to the east.

NavanJunction1

Transport21 Fan wrote:

..station for the dockands which will be properly integrated with Luas. It would also have good road access for buses via the DPT and the East Link Bridge.

It's the non-integration which Luas which bothers me

What about this?

Not what it was obviously, but the building is still there..

And not in the docks though

Transport21 Fan

Broadstone IMHO is a great location for rail transport - but not heavy rail. It is in the middle of a heavily populated area and would be more suited to Metro or Light rail with onwards conection to the city center and not a single terminus for Navan.

Sorry, I have a lot of time for Meath-on-Track, but I don't agree with this Broadstone idea at all as I feel it would rob the potential of the site and route upto and beyond Liffey Junction by just having just one (obstensivly Navan commuter) station at Broadstone and no local rail services to cabra, finglas, phibsborough - a metro or light rail via Broadstone would be much more suited to this and would also provide direct no change transport into the heart of the city centre. Broadstone should be retained for urban rapid transit and no heavy commuter rail.

I am going to put my neck on the line here and propose my Docklands East idea as an alternative to the Interconnector which I feel will never be built, and if it was, won't fullfill its potential.

There is less need for the Interconnector now, as the DRP as originally laid out is not there anymore and Dublin is starting to build up inside the M50 belt and this will only increase in time.

The Interconnector was a great idea when the Dublin Rail Plan was alive and in the running. That's gone now, so do we still need the Interconnector? I am having serious doubts that we still do.

Why can't we build a major rail terminal in the Dockland behind the Point with lots of platforms to handle the requirements of the T21 heavy rail expansion plans as they currently stand?

Capacity on the suburban lines and DART could be expanded with 10 coach trains from Navan, Maynooth, Kildare etc. Currently loads of DARTs and 2900 peak hour services are operated as 4-car service still. How much extra capacity would 10 car Darts/2900s along with a good size multi-platform terminal behind the Point generate?

Pretty close to the Interconnector I would wager and could be delivered much sooner and it planned and lobbied for now would set the wheels in motion for a Dublin version of Llubinjana rail/tram/office block idea which I proposed at the National Transportation Seminar in 2002 and again at the Capital Punishment transport conference at Citywest and was greated with much enthuasim by all present.

The idea of a major Docklands rail terminal and the d-Connector is far from dead. I can't be bothered rail lobbying anymore as being another nobody trying to look important on this message board suits me fine - but if any groups wants to run with this idea they can have it.

NavanJunction1

Transport21 Fan wrote:

I don't agree with this Broadstone idea at all as I feel it would rob the potential of the site.

That's fair enough - my own interest in it is purely that it will be linked properly to Luas - Spencer Dock just seems to have degraded so much as a plan it seems silly.

It reminds me of the type of solution primary schools got with 'temporary' pre-fab classrooms in the 80's and still have them 25 years later..

Once you have it, you are stuck with it..

If another station linked in with Luas I couldn't see a problem with it - it's not Broadstone for the sake of Broadstone - It's been Broadstone because it's as close to an existing Luas line now as Spencer Dock will be whenever the Dockland's Luas project is completed.

And building a new "temporary station" from scratch seems daft, which is what CIÉ say Spencer Dock is supposed to be.

aliveandkicking

Transport21 Fan wrote:

I am going to put my neck on the line here and propose my Docklands East idea as an alternative to the Interconnector which I feel will never be built, and if it was, won't fullfill its potential.

There is less need for the Interconnector now, as the DRP as originally laid out is not there anymore and Dublin is starting to build up inside the M50 belt and this will only increase in time.

The Interconnector was a great idea when the Dublin Rail Plan was alive and in the running. That's gone now, so do we still need the Interconnector? I am having serious doubts that we still do.

I'm sorry, I just can't agree with you about that, the interconnector is still the most vital piece of Transport 21, without it the benefits of the rest of the plan are severely diminished. It links everything together. Thr Dublin Rail Plan is still very much on, electrification will happen as far as Drogheda and Kildare but I get the feeling it will be the county councils paying for it rather than the DoT. I'm surprised that you of all people are questioning the interconnector.

I like the Docklands East station idea though.

NavanJunction1

How much work have they really done on Spencer Dock?

Any suggestions for an elevated spot for a good view of the Spencer Dock station so as to take a few snaps?

I passed by into Connolly on the train the week before last and there seemed to be hoarding on the Sheriff Street end blocking the view

paulm17781

Electrification is Balbriggan to Hazelhatch now.

I like the idea of one grand station for all heavy rail. I would have to disagree about the lack of necessity for the interconnector. When Spencer dock was meant to be a real station I questioned the need for the IC. You and others explained it in more detail to me and what really got me interested was the cross city running. That is something that Dublin needs.

Victor

Stand at the junction of Sheriff Street and the Royal Canal and you have a good elevated view of the area. Then go to East Road (not East Wall Road) where it crosses the railway. The continue along Sheriff Street to East Wall Road where different branches of the railway crosses each.

Bring a map.

NavanJunction1

paulm17781 wrote:

I like the idea of one grand station for all heavy rail

But it isn't one big station..

It's a platform in a big windy yard well away from Connolly and the Luas

You have to remember there is a good chance with this government that you'll get this and this all you'll get

And if it don't get connected to Luas now it probably never will

A station fronting to Luas would mean that even if the Interconector was delayed/canned at least the station would be integrated

NavanJunction1

Victor wrote:

Bring a map.

Will do

paulm17781

NavanJunction1 wrote:

But it isn't one big station..

It's a platform in a big windy yard well away from Connolly and the Luas

I know that. I meant in reference to T21Fan's idea.

aliveandkicking

paulm17781 wrote:

Electrification is Balbriggan to Hazelhatch now.

Yeah due only to the DTO, in 2015 it will be different, Drogheda and Kildare will be back on the agenda.

paulm17781

aliveandkicking wrote:

Yeah due only to the DTO, in 2015 it will be different, Drogheda and Kildare will be back on the agenda.

Source??

Transport21 Fan

aliveandkicking wrote:

I'm sorry, I just can't agree with you about that, the interconnector is still the most vital piece of Transport 21, without it the benefits of the rest of the plan are severely diminished. It links everything together. Thr Dublin Rail Plan is still very much on, electrification will happen as far as Drogheda and Kildare but I get the feeling it will be the county councils paying for it rather than the DoT. I'm surprised that you of all people are questioning the interconnector.

I like the Docklands East station idea though.

Fair enough. There is no doubting that the Interconnector is a super project - but...(am I the only person who has a gut feeling that IE are not really serious about the Interconnector and never were, and it's more talk and speculation rather than a hard plan with the real costings and timeframes factored into it?)

Believe m,e I am very serious about the importance of the Interconnetor as I was that day I sold it in the Gerry Ryan show, but I am not entirely confident that Irish Rail is or even if the whole Dublin Rail Plan/Interconnector was an exercise in wishful thinking?

Anyways, I am glad that people are starting to consider my idea of that last major CIE rail site in the Docklands being turned into the station which Spencer Dock should of been.

Even with the interconnector - the exapansion of Dublin city is moving towards the North Wall and the days are numbered for Dublin Port. The Interconnector even if built will not be close enough to service this "new heart of Dublin" as the PDs call it. This idea places a major rail terminal on its doorstep and with seemless Luas integration from day one.

CIE if they have any sense and do actually care about public transport, can kill a lot of birds with the one stone here.

More than anything else, this is the last major rail site in the city of Dublin (baring Boradstone and that should be either Luas or Metro focussed) with which CIE has the final oppertunity to co-develop a rail site with public transport and integration as the main driver, rather than property developers being the almost exclusive benificaries of such arrangements at the expense of public transport development.

With or without the Interconnector - this Docklands East idea is do-able and this is now the time to start pushing for it before the developers get to CIE management and all is lost, as in the Sheriff Street pre-fab.

Spencer Dock was a done deal years ago - but there is an alternative to save the whole main Docklands terminal idea and this is it. It's all to play for really.

I spent the afternoon thinking about this and the more I examine the idea the more it starts to look right.

John R

I am not sure that the area you are talking about would be suitable as a terminus for commuter services from other parts of the city, it is a long way from the city centre. Even with a very good Bus/Luas interchange it would still be a long detour out and back to get people to the main population and work centres.

Isn't this the main problem with the current Spencer Dock surface plans, that it is too far from where people want to go. If (more likely when) the area is re-developed there may well be potential for passenger rail in the area and to that end the rail infrastructure should not be lifted or sold of in any way but I don't see any benefit in puttig a station there in the short term.

TBH that line and the Alexandra Rd tramway should be looked at in terms of freight traffic for the future. With the Port Tunnel the crossing on East wall road is not going to be as busy with port traffic and Alexandra Rd itself is not really used at all by road traffic, ffs it is still cobblestones for most of it's length.

Serious consideration should be put in to looking at what kinds of bulk freight could feasibly be transferred to rail from shipside. Cutting out the need for road from ship to railhead would make rail much more attractive for container traffic.

paulm17781

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Even with the interconnector - the exapansion of Dublin city is moving towards the North Wall and the days are numbered for Dublin Port. The Interconnector even if built will not be close enough to service this "new heart of Dublin" as the PDs call it. This idea places a major rail terminal on its doorstep and with seemless Luas integration from day one.

This all sounds a little WoT to me. As yet the "heart of Dublin" is stil Grafton - Temple Bar - O'Connell. The port is still that, a port. The best thing that could happen is that CIE keep all the land, should that area actually develop into a new heart of Dublin.

MarkoP11

On paper you might fit a station but since its placed east of Church Rd it would have to put up with massive disruption during the construction of the interconnector due to alterations at Church Rd and would be more or less inaccessible during the rush hour thereafter as there would be 24 trains an hour passing through Church Rd junction, so a train from the Maynooth line (Drumcondra or Midland would have to cross both tracks coming out of the interconnector tunnel, imagine Howth Junction but twice as bad with more trains

It would be 750m approx to the interconnector station about twice the distance of the planned station to the interconnector station. It doesn't serve a centre of employment, its not accessible from the south city its not a walkable distance to Connolly its even more remote than what is planned

The game is over in the Docklands

Transport21 Fan

Heard it all before lads in 2002 when P11 first started. "Spencer Where?"..."Sure there is nothing down there!"..."there is no development or commerical centre in Spencer Dock!"..."just some oul yards and factories"...

I guess that's why Tresury Holdings is on a spending spree all around the Point these days. Maybe they want to retain the location for industrial heritage purposes...or get into railfreight...?

Deja Vue all over again.

dowlingm

paulm

the difference is that Dublin port will almost certainly go, to be replaced by development. Wouldn't it be nice to put transit in *before* demand for once

It seems to me that people who *really* want railfreight to happen should be pushing for Dublin (and Limerick) ports to get out of town ASAP to Balbriggan and Foynes, leaving the urban centres for passenger rail. The North Wall has no future in my opinion EXCEPT as an interim to Balbriggan.

MarkoP11

A rail station east of Church Rd is not practical as it has very restricted (i.e nothing during rush hour) access owing to the planned flow of trains through Church Rd junction

Luas is going in already as far as the point and links with the city centre and all modes of transport

Transport21 Fan

I can't beleive that some people on this thread can assume that;

A) when Dublin Port packs up and moves to Balbriggian then nothing will happen west of The Point and it shall remain empty warehouses for all time, and;

we should not start making plans now to highlight the potential of the IE tracks and yards in this part of the city as a site for a future rail terminal which will be integrated with Luas from day one no matter what.

Really lads, some of you need to develop a bit of vision. Treasury Holdings is way ahead of the game here and I am simply amazed that some of you can state that the CIE rail lines in this area will never have any potential and the game is up.

None of you would stay in business if you were in retail. You would still be bulk ordering rashers if a mosque was built next door to your cornershop. The world changes, Dublin changes and if you think that west of the Point will never be developed then you must not have been paying attention.

These is nothing WoT about this idea at all. Jesus christ! It's anything but that. This is the next big property and development goldrush. For people to say that this is non starter when the whole area is laced with railway routes and yards really is not very visionary in terms of how future rail project can be set on motion now.

Com'on lads, get real. That part of Dublin will be home to thousands of people within 20 years. Dublin port is history and has been for some time now.

Transport21 Fan

MarkoP11 wrote:

Luas is going in already as far as the point and links with the city centre and all modes of transport

and I heard the same about Spencer Dock too... "sure Luas is going there!"

So I can take it that if a future plan for 50,000 people to be living in that part of the city is announced, along with a whole new cultural and recreational quarter for the city to go with it, you will be standing outside the Point with you "LUAS is Enough" placard?

NavanJunction1

Can anyone point me to a good online map that shows the whole Spencer Dock / Port area?

paulm17781

Is there a plan to move Dublin port? I have heard talk of it but nothing concrete. If there is a plan they should be on it straight away and I would support it.

I'd still stock rashers if there was talk of a mosque. Falafal all the way if the mosque were to open. Big difference.

MarkoP11

Transport21 Fan wrote:

and I heard the same about Spencer Dock too... "sure Luas is going there!"

So I can take it that if a future plan for 50,000 people to be living in that part of the city is announced, along with a whole new cultural and recreational quarter for the city to go with it, you will be standing outside the Point with you "LUAS is Enough" placard?

The public inquiry Luas C1 to the Point opens 29th May, its very real

A rail station is impractical given that access is heavily restricted, its not a feasible option unless you want to bore a 1.5km long tunnel from Ossery Rd to surface somewhere to the side of the Alexandra Rd, only accessible from the Midland line but beyond Glasnevin Junction that line would be at capacity so not feasible either

No plans have been lodged to do anything and any plan would require the provision of public transport to the satisfaction of the planning people and that is heavily dependent on the scale and location, most of the port is quite east of the toll bridge anyway so East Wall Yard isn't terribly useful. All that exists is a cheap montage knocked up by the PD's on the assumption that Dublin Port moves lock stock and barrel

paulm17781

I just read how a new tunnel is being put under the liffey in that area.

http://breakingnews.ie/2006/04/27/story256160.html

So maybe this will happen soon....

It is definitely worth planning for this as opposed to just putting up apartments and considering roads and transport at a later date.

NavanJunction1

Bet the houses are to built on the site of your station, T21 Fan..:)

Any idea where I can find a map of the area online?

BTW, could you run the Dockland's Luas across the river from the Port to service Irishtown?

Just an idea that popped into my head

Transport21 Fan

MarkoP11 wrote:

The public inquiry Luas C1 to the Point opens 29th May, its very real

When did I express doubts about the Luas Point line happening? Did I not start the thread off as this being a main reason for this idea.

MarkoP11 wrote:

A rail station is impractical given that access is heavily restricted, its not a feasible option unless you want to bore a 1.5km long tunnel from Ossery Rd to surface somewhere to the side of the Alexandra Rd, only accessible from the Midland line but beyond Glasnevin Junction that line would be at capacity so not feasible either

Not according to my maps.

dowlingm

I just read the article about the Liffey utilities tunnel. I'm all for co-location within reason but this screams "single point of failure"! I hope while they bore interconnector they run electrical and communications at least as a backup. A gas main explosion or a burst pipe and you take out a LOT of infrastructure in one shot.

markf909

This seems timely!
T21 are you part of these vested interests?

Work to begin on site of €800m 'Point Village'
Ruadhán Mac Cormaic

Preliminary construction work is to begin on the site of a landmark tower, shopping development and leisure complex on a 12-acre site near the Point on Dublin's North Wall Quay.

This follows the granting of enabling works permission for the proposed scheme by the Dublin Docklands Development Authority (DDDA) on April 6th.

The €800 million scheme, to be known as the Point Village, will include a 20,000sq m shopping centre, 13,000sq m of office space, a 250-bed hotel with 20 apartments, a 12-screen multiplex cinema and a Samuel Beckett museum.

Its "signature building" is the "Watchtower", a 32-storey structure housing 500sq m of office space, luxury apartments and a rooftop bar and restaurant. The tower, facing the U2 Tower on Britain Quay on the opposite bank of the Liffey, would "form a dramatic marine gateway into the city", a spokesman for the developer, Point Village Ltd, said.

"What we are building here is a unique combination of entertainment and retail venues that dovetail with the planning of living and work spaces," said Harry Crosbie, the entrepreneur who owns the site.

Commuters and shoppers would be catered for with a proposed Docklands extension to the Tallaght Luas line, bringing trams from the city centre directly into the development, while the site would also be serviced by six quality bus corridors and the proposed Macken Street bridge across the Liffey.

A three-floor underground car-park would accommodate 1,200 vehicles, and the developers believe the Dublin Port Tunnel will take much of the heavy traffic out of the area.

"Development of the Point Village is an essential part of the Docklands master plan," said DDDA chief executive Paul Moloney.

The retail facilities will cater not only for the fast-increasing population in the Docklands but also for the suburbs of Clontarf and Fairview on the northside, and Sandymount and Ringsend to the south.

The granting of enabling works permission allows for work to begin on clearing the site, digging foundations and the putting in place of utilities such as electrical conduits and fresh water supplies.

"This work will continue for the next few months," said Mr Crosbie. "Meanwhile, full planning applications will be lodged for the development in sections, as the project is very large. We are estimating that construction of the entire Point Village will take three years but that the first phases would be complete in roughly 12 months."

The scheme's planning file is available for public viewing at the DDDA's office on Custom House Quay.

© The Irish Times

Winters

T21, I think you are trying to reinvent the wheel here. A station where you propose would not be feasible. It would be as isolated from the high trip destinations as much as Heuston Station is. The interconnector, while perhaps arriving late, is a tried and long term planned project that has stood the test of all that has been thrown at it. It might be late but itll happen and will solve all the isolation and capacity problems.