Intra - Robbing your summer and OMG, I have to do it next year.

Suaimhneach

I recently kinda noticed that whilst on Intra, your last summer ever [unless you wanna do a masters] is taken up by manditory part of your course. For my course its 8 months work experience. That's a bit unfair, right?

I mean, I understand how much of a step above the rest we are graduating with a degree and work experience. But still. I won't be travelling or doing anything typically studenty this summer, and I wont be able to next summer!!

I got this mail today, kinda brought it all home a wee bit.

Dear all,

As you are aware, INTRA (Integrated Training) is a mandatory part of your degree in 3rd year. Each student will be required to satisfactorily complete a work placement. Please note time frames for each degree programme that I co-ordinate:

B.Sc. Computer Applications, 6 months, April- September 2007
B.Sc. Mathematics 8 months, February- September 2007
B.Sc. Financial Actuarial Maths, 8 months, February- September 2007
B.Sc. Applied Physics, 8 months, February- September 2007
B.Sc. Fion le Rmomh / Gaeilge Fheidhmeach, 8 months, February -September 2007

At this stage, I would like to draw your attention to a few points regarding INTRA:

CV Preparation

I would like you to, perhaps prepare your CV over the summer period and save as a word document. Once our office will arrange passwords for each student in semester one of 2007. I will request that you input your details on line to formally register for INTRA. I will begin checking CV's first week of semester one and specs will be issued to the above degree programmes middle- end of October. If your CV is not online and accepted, you will not be able to apply for any positions advertised. For any eager beavers out there, you can e-mail your word doc over the summer and I will be happy to review and advise. I would strongly advise that all students put great effort into their CV, as this will be your "marketing tool". Your CV will get you the interview, it will than be up to you to get the job!


Own Placements

I would encourage you all to actively source your own placement, as this will reduce the time you will have to spend checking specs, applying for positions and attending interviews arranged by our office. Anyone that may have a contact in the business, I would suggest that you follow up on this over the summer period. However, please note that any companies that you intend on approaching must be cleared by me first. Please e-mail me the companies that you intend on contacting and I will be happy to check for you. Should you be successful in obtaining your own placement, I will require the following on company headed paper:

* Job description
* Start and finish dates
* Supervisors name
* Salary

Exemptions

Students may be entitled to an exemption, if they have sufficient experience which would be relevant to their degree programme. Our office will require proof of previous experience in the form of a letter on company headed paper with:

* Job description
* Start and finish dates.

This will than be submitted to the relevant school to be discussed at a programme board meeting. Please note that application for exemptions is the end of the second week in October. The decision of the Programme board is final and will be communicated to students by our office.

Location

Students can be placed anywhere in the Republic of Ireland. Students can only apply for location exemptions under the following grounds:

* Medical reasons
* Have dependents

Further information on the INTRA programme can be viewed at: http://www.dcu.ie/internal/intra/intra_students.shtml

I would strongly suggest that you become familiar with the regulations and procedures handbook, which can be found in pdf format on this web site.

This will be reviewed again during the summer period by our office and I will be e-mailing it to all students in semester 1.

I will be making a presentation to all of the above degree programmes during week 1 of semester 1. This presentation is mandatory and I strongly advise that all students attend, as I will be notifying you of important dates and you will have the opportunity to ask me any questions.

However in the interim, please e-mail me your queries, if you cannot find the answer on our web site.

I wish you all the best in your exams and enjoy your summer break.


Regards,
Maria McCarthy

gizmo

Ah yes, the old INTRA issue. Right well, as always, heres my two cents on the matter...

Basically, the benefit INTRA gives to both your overall degree and your level of experience in general far outweighs the inconvience of having to work for that period. Thats why DCU graduates are rated so highly by industry, they know that we're coming out with at least some level of real work experience and hence will be that bit less "green" than other students. Sure its a pain having to work for that period but there are two things that make it easier.

First of all you do it during the Summer. Sure you say that you'd prefer to have the summer to yourself but lets be honest, which would you prefer to give up, time in college or summer time? Personally I'd much rather give up Summer time, you're only a student for 3/4 years whereas you have a lot more Summers ahead of you. That being said my INTRA lasts for 6 months so the only college term I've missed is a month of normal lectures plus exam time so I'm not really that worried.

Secondly, and I believe this to be rather important to making the best of your time, the INTRA office encourage you to find your own placement. Personally I started looking for my placement midway through the summer mainly cos I knew that getting a placement in the area of computing I wanted was going to be very difficult. In the end I got the perfect job for me, sure its far away but I absolutly love it. I'm working with people who share similar interests to me and I never dread going into work at all. This will also carry on through the summer, even though its gona be sunny etc... at least I'll be doing something I enjoy indoors instead of missing out on the sun AND being stuck doing something I hate. Hence I'd encourage you to start looking early for your placement so at least you have a chance in achieving the above.

Finally, its not your "last summer to do something studenty" at all. You can always travel once you graduate, in fact thats what alot of people are doing now mainly cos once they get back they may have loans to repay and being able to get a job almost straight away and start paying them off is better than going back to college with similar loans to pay off.

Fair enough its a big step alrite but you gotta look on the bright side with this stuff. Look at me sure, I'm stuck up in the arse end of nowhere and I still have a smile on my face.

rugbug86

i know, we had our intra talk today. it was scary!

and faceless, you just love muff a bit too much.

Suaimhneach

I completely agree with you Simon, I do. But I think maybe you're over thinking what I meant originally. Whereas I'm going to be working in a full time job this summer anyway, and I do think the experience is essential. It's technically your last summer before you start working for the rest of your life... As in, your last summer as a student. It's not the work itself that worries me, though you have given some invaluable advice, its the fact that it's my last summer ever... and I'll be doing college things in it.

Heh, I'm sure I'll get over it. I'm looking forward to Intra, think I'll get a job in Marketing to keep me interested. Either that or start a business. heh.

Also, LOL rugbug.

gizmo

Heh, well the point of the post was to ease some of those worries of yours Jessy, clearly didnt work.:)

Aaaaanyway, as I said though, the summer of 4th year, i.e the one after you do your finals is *technically* your last summer as a student, hence you still have one left after all that INTRA malarkey. So just do what I'm gona do and save up all that usual insanity for then tbh!


And yes rugbug, I the Muff....

Call Me Jimmy

Faceless Man, is ur INTRA place in the game development field by any chance? I'm most interested in that (first year CA), i'de be interested in hearing about your experience if this is the case.

steviec

The system has a hell of a lot wrong with it. I can honestly say I would have learnt more about my trade if I'd spent last Summer left to my own devices because I tend to play around with programs in my free time. Instead I was forced to quit a good(but not course related) job and put in an office on minimum wage where I contributed nothing to the team because they barely wanted my contribution, I was given small pointless tasks that were basically beneath real staff, none of which taught me anything. It was a totally pointless excercise and one I know a lot of people are familiar with. Work experience can be invaluable, and I actually looked forward to it beforehand, but at the end I just wanted those 6 months of my life back.

If it was optional, or at least the rules were more sensible, I might not have been forced into a job from one of the first interviews, I might have been in a position to actually negotiate wages and not take a 50% drop from what I normally earn in Summer to get me through the year(something I'm paying for by having to work when possible during 4th year but not enough to cover my debts) and I might have been in a job that actually wanted me there instead of just taking on students because its what their parent company do.

So if you haven't guessed I'm not a fan of INTRA...

cooker3

Ah the joys of Intra.

Ok well I am sure Simon will confirm this when I say I wasn't exactly looking forward to doing Intra and may have complained about it once or twice..

So I did opposite of Simon instead of looking for a job, I sort of pretended it wasn't there and not apply for any job on the system. I got put forward for interviews and eventuality 1 of those places took me on, luckily it was in Dublin as I didn't really wanted to be anywhere else in the country.

So a month in nearly and have to say it could have been far far worse, I have unrestricted net access (lol@simon connection) and do no work so suits me fairly well, my main issue is having to wake up at around 7:45am in the morning, it really kills me but I have never been a morning person.

If you want it to then Intra could work out well as you can get yourself working somewhere were you want to work after college and have head start over others. Personally as the prospect of working with computers doesn't excite me the thought of Intra was everything I hated and even though it's a good doss job the idea of doing this permanently is not appealing so maybe Intra will help in this way.

Well this has been a long meandering reply, whats my point, well I thought what you thought and well it hasn't turned it too bad but I am lucky and others are worse off so like Simon said find yourself a good job and then summer shouldn't be too bad!

Scráib

Ah Intra!

I'm on the 8 month placement myself. I completely missed semester two and despite many times complaining, I actually missed DCU (Yes Jess, even CG60!).

My two cents are pretty much the same as the lads:

Get a good job sorted, and early. If you get a good job where you'll be doing real tasks you'll enjoy Intra. My job is a bit boring sure, but I'm doing real jobs that I can see benefiting the company.

If you're worried about not having a mad Summer then get a job abroad. I'd say Lux is good. Lots of students head there and they all love it.

Actually time for me to start work now!

gizmo

Call Me Jimmy, yep got a job in Games Company alrite. It was tough to get but its definitly paying off. Gimme a shout whenever if you want some info on the whole thing.

steviec, I'm confused. You say you would have learned more about your trade if you had stuck with your original job yet you were forced to quit due to it not being course related? Huh?
As for you're plight while there, well that depends on the person. If that had been me I probably would have gone to my boss and asked for more responsibilites, if he ignored me I would have gone to the folks and INTRA and told them. Being expected to put up with that for 6 months is of course, completely unacceptable.

As for the way INTRA is organised, well back when I first started thinking about it I was highly sceptical of the system in place. Why should be allowed to make me work for a company I don't want to? Why can't I not negiotate my own terms since I'll be the one working for them?
However the more I thought about it the more I began to see the bigger picture.

Each year INTRA goes to companies looking for positions for us students. Now put yourself in a companies position, you reserve a job or two within a company, make yourself available through the INTRA system, budget for their pay, assign current employees to handle the interviews and then....no one turns up. To be honest if that was me I'd say screw them and not offer jobs the next year. Now imagine the following year said company doesnt offer places and the INTRA office can't find any other jobs, now people are stuck doing the pointless project they assign if you're stuck without a job and people get no benefit whatsoever. So as a result of giving students the option of what interviews to go for in one year, the next year there are less companies available and there is a higher possibility that people won't get jobs. That doesnt sound very fair either does it.

The same applies for wage negiotation, if say a student gets the job and then makes a fuss during the negiotation it will again reflect negativly on both DCU and the INTRA system and more than likely discourage the employer from coming back the next year. Time has also been wasted and a another student, who may have wanted said job originally and would have accepted the inital contract offered to the other stsudent, has moved on and settled for a job they don't like as much.

People say INTRA Office is only there to appease the companies but to be honest, if they didn't to some extent, there would be no jobs there for the students. Sure the system doesnt always work for some people but when you have that many positions to secure, there is really no other way to do it.

Suaimhneach

Well said Simon. [/me considers a "Make Simon Mod Thread"]

Thing is though, I dunno what I wanna do. I know I'd like to start one of my own two business ideas, however its a lot of effort and risk, and maybe the work experience would stand to me better....

/me stops moaning.

gizmo

Heh...

While of course you should get some more professional advice on the subject, if you want my opinion I would definitly first get a job in the the industry you want to start your business in. That way you will get some proper experience which you will be able to bring it the table when you go to start your own business. Also, down the line when you start looking for money from the bank for your startup they will be alot more open to the idea if you have this such experience.

exzantia

I HATE INTRA.

So far this is the single worst summer of my life. It is all I can do to not throw myself under the bus in the morning instead of getting on it.

I hate getting up and knowing that I have to go in there. I hate having to rush to get out the door. I hate the 1-hour commute. I hate the office. I hate the atmosphere in the office. I hate my desk, chair, PC. I hate the Aircon units that do nothing for the stale air. I hate the stupid tasks that I have to do. Meaningless crap that anyone could do that in no way befits me and barely benefits the company.

I am thinking about quitting. Well, more than thinking about. That means an extra year in college, not because I failed, not because I am bad at my course, but because I will have to hurt myself and everyone in a five mile radius if I keep going in there.

The INTRA system is more akin to some of the world’s worst dictatorships than something designed to further our experience and education. It is set up to attempt to benefit the participating companies in almost every way. Little to no consideration is given to the students.

Why is that we are forced to attend all interviews? Why must both accept and KEEP the first job we are offered when the companies can randomly pull jobs from the system after granting them to the students with not so much as an e-mail to say sorry. It makes me boil inside.

I had a job, one that required me to program. They pulled it less than 2 weeks before the deadline for INTRA, forcing me go back and interview for what basically were the bottom of the barrel jobs.

The INTRA office actually had the gall to tell me how much they were going to try and help me get another job. Another job? Get me back the one I wanted, that’s what I accepted, that is what was offered.

If things do not rapidly improve for me, which I know they won’t, I am going to tell my boss how much I hate the job and see if he can help me out in anyway (probably not). I am then going to, politely at first, start to talk with the INTRA office about some alternative arrangements. When that inevitably fails I will quit my job and become the worlds biggest pain in the ass for the INTRA office. I’ll have lost anyway, why not dig a bigger hole.

Then when it rolls around next year, I’ll go work for Exzantia Corp, and by work I mean stay in bed all day for the Summer. Christ knows I’ll probably learn more beneficial things in my dreams than I will this summer with the job from hell in the system provided by Satan for the course I don’t want to repeat.

If anyone wants advice about INTRA here is mine: avoid it. Avoid it at all costs, work for your own fictional company if you have to, but don’t let yourselves get sucked into the system.

The door on Maria McCarthy's office needs a sign, “Doomed are ye who enter. Utterly doomed.”

rugbug86

where u on intra? even what faculty are you in?

Creature

Ah INTRA, only been doing it a month now but it feels like years. God knows how you need a degree to do this most menial, mind-bendingly dull crap that I'm doing. The added fact of repeats in August should make this situation an even bigger barrell of laughs.

Ah sure at least in five months time I'll have the valuable knowledge that tablets have to be in good shape before they can be sold. I mean you'd never guess that otherwise, right?

Ste.phen

exzantia wrote:

I hate the 1-hour commute.

That's not all that bad actually, I'm *in* Dublin and my commute ranges from 40 mins to 90 mins (ok, so that was just one time) depending on bus and day.

As for the rest of the things you hate, I suppose that's specific to you and your job, I wouldnt recommend saying where you work on here, btu what sort of place is it? What sort of work are you doing?

When that inevitably fails I will quit my job and become the worlds biggest pain in the ass for the INTRA office. I’ll have lost anyway, why not dig a bigger hole.

Better brush up on those interpersonal skills

exzantia

rugbug86 wrote:

where u on intra? even what faculty are you in?

I'm doing CA. Jervis Street, Version 1 Sftware.

gizmo

exzantia wrote:

*white noise*

So when I asked how you were getting on and you said " *sigh* " it was more like "OMFG I HATE IT" ?

Hrm, one thing I will point out is that your points about how INTRA suck are really based on the fact that you got stuck with a crummy job following the withdrawal of the other one. Would you still be so angry if you had gotten the original job? On the other hand, that company withdrawing the job is pretty sucky tbh, did they give any reasons for it or at the very least did INTRA tell you why it was withdrawn?

As for why we have to go to the interviews, well I gave my views on that earlier.

cooker3

Faceless Man wrote:

So when I asked how you were getting on and you said " *sigh* " it was more like "OMFG I HATE IT" ?

Hrm, one thing I will point out is that your points about how INTRA suck are really based on the fact that you got stuck with a crummy job following the withdrawal of the other one. Would you still be so angry if you had gotten the original job? On the other hand, that company withdrawing the job is pretty sucky tbh, did they give any reasons for it or at the very least did INTRA tell you why it was withdrawn?

As for why we have to go to the interviews, well I gave my views on that earlier.

Actually that 1 of my big problems with Intra, they don't tell you anything, the company will inform them that you haven't got a job but they will not inform you and let you sweat it out, it can't be that hard to have little interface which keep you up to date with job status!

gerrowadat

exzantia wrote:

I HATE INTRA.
I hate getting up and knowing that I have to go in there. I hate having to rush to get out the door. I hate the 1-hour commute. I hate the office. I hate the atmosphere in the office. I hate my desk, chair, PC. I hate the Aircon units that do nothing for the stale air. I hate the stupid tasks that I have to do. Meaningless crap that anyone could do that in no way befits me and barely benefits the company.

Newsflash, kiddo: Most INTRA companies do not hire INTRA students for their massive contributions to the company. They do it as an altruistic measure, to increase their profile with the source of grads that is DCU. They don't want the average INTRA head to be re-architecting big parts of their system, or working on anything time-critical, because chances are your average INTRA head is a **** programmer, with little or no understanding of how software dev works, who's there to learn how others work in a real-world environment.

exzantia wrote:

Why is that we are forced to attend all interviews? Why must both accept and KEEP the first job we are offered when the companies can randomly pull jobs from the system after granting them to the students with not so much as an e-mail to say sorry. It makes me boil inside.

It's hard to get companies to take on potential dead wood for several months. Looking at it bluntly, INTRA students are a drain on finances, they potentially waste the time of current employees, and there's a lot of overhead with employing someone that INTRA companies are basically donating.

exzantia wrote:

If things do not rapidly improve for me, which I know they won’t, I am going to tell my boss how much I hate the job and see if he can help me out in anyway (probably not).

Certainly ot with that attitude! I've got news for ya: Bosses are people too. If you go to your boss and say "I am having a **** time", chances are he'll at least have a go at making things better for you.

exzantia wrote:

Then when it rolls around next year, I’ll go work for Exzantia Corp, and by work I mean stay in bed all day for the Summer. Christ knows I’ll probably learn more beneficial things in my dreams than I will this summer with the job from hell in the system provided by Satan for the course I don’t want to repeat.

So what you're saying is you don't like working. You're not expected to actually learn anything technical on INTRA, you know. You're supposed to learn about the dynamic of how working in the industry works. You're supposed to observe people working, to practice woring with people, and to see real-life application of what you're learning, even if you're not doing it, or making much of an impact on the company technically.

exzantia wrote:

If anyone wants advice about INTRA here is mine: avoid it. Avoid it at all costs, work for your own fictional company if you have to, but don’t let yourselves get sucked into the system.

So what you're saying is that it's better to learn nothing than to learn a hard lesson.

Get out of my industry, please.

Scráib

Intra's a funny fish. They pay you to work for them, then frequently (right now for me) you're sitting with nothing to do! I feel like a total dosser, but I'm here with no real job to do, and no bosses in to tell me what needs doing.

It happens to many on Intra I hear. But then as gerrowadat says you're being hired to increase the company's profile so at the end of the day its not really about you, though the benefits of the real world experience for us is absolutely invaluable, even if our jobs suck a bit.

The whole "accept the first job offer" rule makes sense, but it screwed me this year. I did two interviews, one for a PR company in London and the other for a Risk Management company in Dublin. I wanted the London job(cause I'd have loved to move to london for a bit!), the Dublin job I applied to as a backup. But of course the Dublin company got to me first. Then I get an email from the London crowd telling me they would have employed me! Agh! So here I am now in Dublin. Ah well...

markpb

INTRA in DCU seems to be very split down the middle - people either love it or hate it depending on the work they're doing. Whatever you're thoughts, it does have one advantage: work experience on your CV. Even if you did nothing useful, you'll still have 6 months on your CV which helps you get in the door later on. Never underestimate the advantage of having any work experience when you're looking for a job.

If you do end up with a useless job, try to find any way you can to improve it. Even if you only switch from reading boards.ie to reading up on a new(-ish) programming language like c# or some technical white papers, it's worth doing rather than sitting about doing nothing. Talking to your boss about taking on extra work might help too. Do try to make the most of it, no matter how much you hate it.

The same thing that happened to Scraib, happened to me. A company in Boston told me I almost definitely had the job but before they could confirm it, Enterprise Ireland offered me a job so I commuted from Santry to Sandymount for six months.

Art_Wolf

gerrowadat wrote:

It's hard to get companies to take on potential dead wood for several months. Looking at it bluntly, INTRA students are a drain on finances, they potentially waste the time of current employees, and there's a lot of overhead with employing someone that INTRA companies are basically donating.

Maybe those companies need to reconsider how they use the students. Where I am working I have been trained up in the system already and will be expected to train up my replacement before I leave. The company has set out to take in students to train them up to be future employees - and they are doing it very well!

Why does the company bother taking on employees and then giving them useless jobs and alienating them furthur? They gain some monkey labour but lose a potental employee and, who knows, client.

gerrowadat wrote:

So what you're saying is you don't like working. You're not expected to actually learn anything technical on INTRA, you know. You're supposed to learn about the dynamic of how working in the industry works. You're supposed to observe people working, to practice woring with people, and to see real-life application of what you're learning, even if you're not doing it, or making much of an impact on the company technically.

Observe people working..seeing how the industry works - how does one do this when they are told to work on a mind boring project for several months? That is _not_ how the industry works - hell you get a better sense of that in the labs during project time then that type of work.

gerrowadat wrote:

So what you're saying is that it's better to learn nothing than to learn a hard lesson.

And yet this often times is a hard lesson in nothing - its taking up your time which you could be better using to improving your job prospects doing things as simple as studying a new technology or even getting a basic IT job where you expand your experiences. Getting paid is nice but a rewarding job is much better.

Personally I really like the company I work for but I have been through the monkey work in previous jobs and consider it much more the area of the 1st or 2nd year student then a 3rd year going into final year.

markpb

Art_Wolf wrote:

And yet this often times is a hard lesson in nothing - its taking up your time which you could be better using to improving your job prospects doing things as simple as studying a new technology or even getting a basic IT job where you expand your experiences.

In my experience, having work experience on your CV is much more important to most companies than saying you have skills. Their reasoning is that anyone can say they 'know' C++ on their CV but there's no way to prove it. On the other hand, it's easy to check that you did actually work for 6 months in x company.

On the other hand, anyone doing nothing at all related to their degree should definitely highlight that to their Intra supervisor, the intra office and threaten to kick up a fuss if the same company/position is offered the following year.

steviec

markpb wrote:

In my experience, having work experience on your CV is much more important to most companies than saying you have skills. Their reasoning is that anyone can say they 'know' C++ on their CV but there's no way to prove it. On the other hand, it's easy to check that you did actually work for 6 months in x company.

Solution: Make it optional. If you want that on your CV then great, but why force students into it and waste 6 months of so many people's lives? Intra can be great in a genuine productive role, and it can be hell in a meaningless one. Surely making it optional and actually giving students a choice would result in people only going for good jobs?

I was forced to quit a very rewarding job(and one which I believe looks great on my CV even if it isn't relevant to my area of study) to spend 6 months struggling to face each day of torture sitting in a room slowly going insane. There was no work for me to do, I learnt nothing, the company gained nothing. The one real project I did work on was an order tracking system for their website, which to this day(a year later) still hasn't gone live. It was painfully obvious at the time it was just to give me something to do and nobody actually cared. I'm aware I should have lodged a complaint with the INTRA office but my boss was a genuinely very nice guy who did try to accomodate me but simply didn't have any real work to offer me and I don't like causing conflict even if I may have had a right to. I wish I'd just had the option of quietly quitting without causing a fuss.

So if your asking me am I willing to trade 6 month of my life for a slightly better looking CV, no, no I'm not. Especially when I have nothing positive to say if I'm asked in an interview what I did during those 6 months.

gizmo

Right well there are a few problems with making the scheme optional. First and foremost, in my opinion anyway, I don't think the majority of students are mature enough to make the decision on their own. Now I'll probably get some flak for that but I stand by it. Lets see...what would the average student prefer, a summer of having the craic at home, working a handy job and generally doing their own thing in the meantime or a summer of actually having to work in a proper job with little or no bull**** and with real responsibilities? Most of them would chose the former of course and have very little regard for experience they would gain from the latter option.

The other problem lies with the fact that if INTRA was optional then the Intra office would have a greater difficultly in gauging the number of jobs it would need. If they gave students a deadline to decide whether you want to do it or not there would always be those who leave it too late or change their minds. In that case you would be back to companies, who had assigned the necessary resources to make the position in their workforce available, being screwed over and hence discouraging them from coming back the next year. Basically if you gave students the option you would be just giving them an excuse to **** around. It's sad but in my opinion, quite true...

This also ties in with why I disagree with what you said steviec - making it optional won't make the job you get better. For the system to work, INTRA need prior notice of your willingness to use the system. Once you're in then you're in, just like you were the last time and your experience will once again depend on the job you get. As I've said before, having it so that a student can reject a job offer just will not work in the long run...


On another note, from what I have seen so far, the people that seem to have the problems with INTRA are, for the most part anyway, those that are/were unhappy with the jobs they were put into. However you must remember, you are given plenty of opportunites to get your own placement before the interviews start. Also remember that its not Intra screwing you over if you don't get the job you wanted, you are being judged on your work in college so far and of course, your performance in the interview, this is how it works in the real world folks and I think some people seem to be using INTRA as a cop out for this too.

On the other hand, you do get some people who are just plain unfortunate. Take what happened to exzantia there and to a slightly lesser extent steviec, neither seem to have done anything wrong but they still got stuck with dodgy jobs. However, for the small number that come out of it the wrong end I really don't think they should go changing the way the system works fundamentally. Sure it could do with some improvment, but then again, so can everything really.

And finally, to touch back on another point you made steviec, you talk about this job that you "believe looks great on my CV even if it isn't relevant to my area of study" , however did you ever consider that a potential employer will not be interested in it? That is, after all, why you have a CV, to impress employers and help you secure a job in the area in which you studied?

steviec

Faceless Man wrote:

Also remember that its not Intra screwing you over if you don't get the job you wanted, you are being judged on your work in college so far and of course, your performance in the interview, this is how it works in the real world folks and I think some people seem to be using INTRA as a cop out for this too.

No I can't agree with that. In the real world Markpb would have been working in Boston and not commuting across Dublin every day as he ended up because of silly rules. In the real world I'd have (a) never left my job unless it was for something of worth, (b) only been hired by a company who actually wanted me to work for them and (c) in the magical event I did take a minimum wage job in a company that didn't have work for me to do, I'd have quit within a month. Given the rules of intra, interview skills have little to do with it, blind luck in what order jobs appear is far more important. And I know there's the 'arrange your own job' excuse, but I was busy with college and I never realised how ridiculous the system was until it was upon me, as I'm sure many people don't.

The 'students aren't mature enough' argument doesn't hold much ground with me either. As I believe I've said repeatedly, working for Summer in an environment where I'm needed and I have responsibilities is normal for me(I'd even consider the basic retail work I did during my Summers in school more valuable experience of a working environment than intra), and INTRA was the exception to this, when I spent my Summer staring at a wall and counting down the days till college starts instead. Maybe I'm in the minority, but most of my friends who weren't on intra at the time I was were travelling or gaining experience far beyond anything I gained that Summer.

steviec

Faceless Man wrote:

And finally, to touch back on another point you made steviec, you talk about this job that you "believe looks great on my CV even if it isn't relevant to my area of study" , however did you ever consider that a potential employer will not be interested in it? That is, after all, why you have a CV, to impress employers and help you secure a job in the area in which you studied?

I'm actually basing that on the positive comments I received about it from my interviewers on intra. I did get a number of interviews and got a job very quickly, it wasn't like I was stuck with a bottom of the barrel job at the end, but with how intra is set up it was just a matter of whatever company decided they wanted me first got me, whoever that company may be.

Scráib

steviec wrote:

Maybe I'm in the minority, but most of my friends who weren't on intra at the time I was were travelling or gaining experience far beyond anything I gained that Summer.

Aye thats what I find to be the real kick in the teeth about Intra. We could be doing a J1, living in Europe for the Summer or Inter-Railing but the placement really kills that idea.

True we can go next year, but if most of our friends have already gone travelling how many of them will want to go then? Yes being paid and working, aswell as the great experience will stand to us, but I hate missing that chance to really travel over the Summer.

Ah well. It should be noted here that if Intra was optional though I still would have done it. Experience will count after DCU, even if we lose a chance to travel.

gizmo

Well as I said there is SOME room for improvment, I will agree that the idea that if you go for two interviews you HAVE to take the one that gets back to your first is annoying, hell its something I had to battle with myself. On the other hand I intend taking this up with them once I'm finished so that other people won't have to suffer aswell. This won't change unless enough people give constructive criticism and talk to the relevant people...

On the other hand...

steviec wrote:

No I can't agree with that. In the real world Markpb would have been working in Boston and not commuting across Dublin every day as he ended up because of silly rules.

In reality Mark wouldn't have known about that job in Boston. Intra does have some great jobs on its roster and those who get them rarely complain of course.

steviec wrote:

In the real world I'd have (a) never left my job unless it was for something of worth

Well you never even know this in the real world. Job descriptions differ from the actual work in many descriptions and I've heard of several people who have moved into a job and realised that it wasnt what they wanted or thought it would be. You take your chance as they say...

steviec wrote:

(b) only been hired by a company who actually wanted me to work for them

That is odd and was bad form on the companys end, however as you admit yourself you should have made a bigger fuss about this to both the company and INTRA. If something like this happens we should be well in our rights to either demand change or at the very least have the ability to leave the job and get a new one.

steviec wrote:

and (c) in the magical event I did take a minimum wage job in a company that didn't have work for me to do, I'd have quit within a month.

As I said above, this is something that people need to tell the INTRA office. They're not stupid to be honest, if they see you're not getting out of it they won't go mad if you tell them you're going to leave in order to find a more worthwhile job.

steviec wrote:

Given the rules of intra, interview skills have little to do with it, blind luck in what order jobs appear is far more important.

Can't agree with you there, there were many jobs on the INTRA roster that attracted a large amount of interest and for the most part the people who got them were the people with the most impressive CVs, experience and interview techniques. Luck, in this case, had nothing got to do with it.

steviec wrote:

And I know there's the 'arrange your own job' excuse, but I was busy with college and I never realised how ridiculous the system was until it was upon me, as I'm sure many people don't.

Heh, I also really can't agree with this. Personally I was considering INTRA towards the end of second year because I really wanted a good job for myself and also had done my research and found that it IS possible to get screwed over. Come the summmer of second year however I was actively talking to Maria McCarthy and sending off my CV and cover letters to prospective companies. Its probably something they should push more really...

steviec wrote:

The 'students aren't mature enough' argument doesn't hold much ground with me either. As I believe I've said repeatedly, working for Summer in an environment where I'm needed and I have responsibilities is normal for me(I'd even consider the basic retail work I did during my Summers in school more valuable experience of a working environment than intra), and INTRA was the exception to this, when I spent my Summer staring at a wall and counting down the days till college starts instead. Maybe I'm in the minority, but most of my friends who weren't on intra at the time I was were travelling or gaining experience far beyond anything I gained that Summer.

Well as I said, they have to cater for the majority here steviec. You come across as being mature enough for it but many others wouldn't be able to make that decision properly I believe. As for people travelling, well as Mark said, employers want to see experience in your area of study really. Sure other experience is good but its that relevant experience that will put you above other applicants in the future.

gerrowadat

Art_Wolf wrote:

Maybe those companies need to reconsider how they use the students. Where I am working I have been trained up in the system already and will be expected to train up my replacement before I leave. The company has set out to take in students to train them up to be future employees - and they are doing it very well!

Great! Like I said/meant, any technical bits and/or responsibility you get is a bonus on top of the invaluable experience of work that you get.

Art_Wolf wrote:

Why does the company bother taking on employees and then giving them useless jobs and alienating them furthur? They gain some monkey labour but lose a potental employee and, who knows, client.

It's not a job. It's a work placement. You're supposed to observe. In fact, being on INTRA stuck in a corner doing your own little coding project would be more useless than going to meetings all day and seeing the dynamic of how people work without any great workload or responsibility of your own.

Art_Wolf wrote:

Observe people working..seeing how the industry works - how does one do this when they are told to work on a mind boring project for several months? That is _not_ how the industry works - hell you get a better sense of that in the labs during project time then that type of work.

And yet this often times is a hard lesson in nothing - its taking up your time which you could be better using to improving your job prospects doing things as simple as studying a new technology or even getting a basic IT job where you expand your experiences. Getting paid is nice but a rewarding job is much better.

That's all well and good, but if your average 3rd year is told "Actually you don't have to do INTRA, you can have 6 months off for self-study instead", they'll sit on their holes doing nothing. Yes, coming in every day to do not a lot, or work you don't like is bad. Think about your prospects when you graduate. Decide if what you're doing is what you want to do for the rest of your working life. INTRA is an enforced life experience. Some life experiences are less pleasant than others, based on circumstances, and your personality.

Deal with it.

gerrowadat

Scr&#225 wrote: »

Aye thats what I find to be the real kick in the teeth about Intra. We could be doing a J1, living in Europe for the Summer or Inter-Railing but the placement really kills that idea.

You're doing a university degree. That implies curtailing your activites somewhat in any case. You can't work a fulltime job, you can't sod off somewhere for a couple months during the semester, why are you complaining that you can't do it during INTRA? You knew about it 3 years ago when you signed up for the course. Yes, it's a pain in the hole, but it's one summer out of a jillion. You're basically not being assessed, just don't get fired and try to enjoy yourself.

Will

well im glad im exempt from INTRA, *pats erasmus on the head* well guys would yis rather be in college doing exams now or "working" and getting paid for it?
Comisserations to the people who arent enjoying it :(
to those who are...yeah well done

phreak

Some of the arguments here against INTRA are absolutely ridiculous.

So you lose a summer? you have 3 others whilst in college to go away and do whatever you want. whos fault is it if you haven't?

As for the way INTRA is run... Its not the best system for students but if it didn't have the rules it does then there would be a lot fewer companies each year. INTRAs rules aren't unique... i was talking to a couple of students from NUIG last week and their INTRA equivalent has the exact same rules as we do.

Also, it's not as if you're forced to use the INTRA system. If you want to sort your own job out or start your own business you can.

The only person here with a decent reason to bitch about INTRA is exzantia because they ****ed him over so close to INTRA starting.

Suaimhneach

Just because you have four summers doesnt mean its okay for them to essentailly take one. Though, to be fair, I don't really mind.

Sounds fairly harsh exantia, hope ye can get it sorted.

I really hope I dont end up somewhere I hate. Think I'll end up following Faceless Mans request!

andrew163

I'm only a measly first year.. so there's a good while before I do INTRA.. but when I filled out the CAO form last year putting down DCU in position 1, I did so knowing that there'd be no summer off in 3rd year. If it's a problem that it's compulsary then that's a mistake that you made 3 years ago...

Personally I'm looking forward to it... I know one person who's in the US doing something sciency and they seem to be enjoying it... and have heard a bit from phaxx and gizmo on redbrick about their experiences... Even if I get posted in..er..say... near Belfield (possibly the most awkward place in Ireland for me to get to - not far enough to justify moving but damn far for a commute) it still seems like an interesting few months. Whether or not I'm still feeling the same way in 3 years time will be a different story..

Art_Wolf

I agree it needs to be remain compulsary - heh optional would be a disaster

I didnt know about intra till 2nd semester of 1st year when I saw the third years leaving.

Things that could be done for the system - actually giving all the jobs at once, not adding them on one by one.. surily they are not doing everything at the last min? This way you can see all jobs and which would help you in your future career - for instance Cisco would have been a cool job but it was offered after I had done several interviews and gotten a job.

What about a placement down in say Cork or Belfast or Limrick or *shudder* Muff Having a house to live in in Dublin to the annoyance of having to rent an apartment just because I HAD to attend an interview and HAD to accept their job offer...

gizmo

Art_Wolf wrote:

I didnt know about intra till 2nd semester of 1st year when I saw the third years leaving.

Well that is neither DCU nor INTRA's fault. I would have assumed you'd read it in the course prospectus.

Art_Wolf wrote:

Things that could be done for the system - actually giving all the jobs at once, not adding them on one by one.. surily they are not doing everything at the last min? This way you can see all jobs and which would help you in your future career - for instance Cisco would have been a cool job but it was offered after I had done several interviews and gotten a job.

This isn't actually INTRAs fault either. I raised this issue with Maria McCarthy before and to put it quite simply they have to constantly chase down the employers to get them to get their job descriptions in so they can be put online. The only way around this is to set a deadline for employers however this *could* make them twice about putting a position forward since they might not want to be rushed.

Art_Wolf wrote:

What about a placement down in say Cork or Belfast or Limrick or *shudder* Muff Having a house to live in in Dublin to the annoyance of having to rent an apartment just because I HAD to attend an interview and HAD to accept their job offer...

Well you're going to have to leave Dublin or at the very least move out at some stage. Look at INTRA as possibly that kick in the arse you've been waiting for.

Art_Wolf

Faceless Man wrote:

Well that is neither DCU nor INTRA's fault. I would have assumed you'd read it in the course prospectus.

Meh to read up on all computer course nah - I read more about the colleges and what the courses will do, I didnt examine each module

Faceless Man wrote:

This isn't actually INTRAs fault either. I raised this issue with Maria McCarthy before and to put it quite simply they have to constantly chase down the employers to get them to get their job descriptions in so they can be put online. The only way around this is to set a deadline for employers however this *could* make them twice about putting a position forward since they might not want to be rushed.

Alot of the companies are the same from last year - it should be easy for them to ask to confirm or change the description. Why not start doing this now? Why are they only confirming the placements during Intra? Are they really that usless in talking to HR departments? I certainly hope not..

Faceless Man wrote:

Well you're going to have to leave Dublin or at the very least move out at some stage. Look at INTRA as possibly that kick in the arse you've been waiting for.

What nonsense is this?! The plan is to kill off the rest of the family and inherit the house

That or get employed by Amazon and have them pay for everything like they like to :cool:

gizmo

Art_Wolf wrote:

Alot of the companies are the same from last year - it should be easy for them to ask to confirm or change the description. Why not start doing this now? Why are they only confirming the placements during Intra? Are they really that usless in talking to HR departments? I certainly hope not..

Nope, its the confirmation of the placement and any change in job description that INTRA require and thats what they have trouble getting from the companies. You know what it's like dealing with people in DCU right, well imagine that, except much worse.

GavMan

about that job in boston Mark got offered, now dont quote me on this, but if that were in say france or anywhere in the EU, and u were not allowed to take, this may be considered restricting the free movement of Labour within the EU and very illegal as this is one of the very fundamentals of the EU.
but in anycase, there must surely be a legal question mark over the whole, 'you have to take the 1st job you're offered' rule. if i were offered the chance to live and work in boston and i couldn't because of the above rule, id deffo be having a word with a solicitor, to see where i stood.
this is how i see the play runing:
bam, get an injunction on DCU making u do intra in a place u would prefer not to work in, compared to the boston job. bam, get an injuction on the US company giving it to someone else. then hang tough till DCU give in and let u get ur way.

gizmo

Heh, INTRA have themselves covered unfortunately. Once you sign the handbook stating you agree to abide by the rules of the program thats it, you have to. Off the top of my head they also cater for the above senario by stating that they will ONLY deal with you, the student, at this end and will not entertain queries from parents, guardians or "third party". Unfortunatly I *think* that if you refuse to sign the rules you basically fail the year, now I'm not sure about this so I'll look into it later but I'm pretty sure thats the gist of it anyway.

cooker3

Faceless Man wrote:

Heh, INTRA have themselves covered unfortunately. Once you sign the handbook stating you agree to abide by the rules of the program thats it, you have to. Off the top of my head they also cater for the above senario by stating that they will ONLY deal with you, the student, at this end and will not entertain queries from parents, guardians or "third party". Unfortunatly I *think* that if you refuse to sign the rules you basically fail the year, now I'm not sure about this so I'll look into it later but I'm pretty sure thats the gist of it anyway.

Really, thats interesting as I have never signed 1 thing related to Intra as of yet and certainly didn't sign the handbook

markpb

Lets not go over the top. No solicitor is going to entertain any ideas of sueing the college over something like this, its part and parcel of the course. If nothing else, its work experience, not a job so the EU regs on free movemnet of labour have nothing to do with it. Even the minimum wage act doesn't cover it - ask anyone in EBF how much they get paid when they're on work ex. in France.

INTRA isn't perfect but it's a very important part of the course. No matter how rubbish your job is, no matter how little it has to do with your course, its still time spent in a company and that will stand to you later.

Making it optional isn't a good alternative. Personally I hated Languages and Computability in CA2 and would have happily dropped it if it was optional but it's part of the course and useful to have so its a core module, just like Intra. I could say the same about Leaving Cert Irish ;o)

gizmo

markpb wrote:

Lets not go over the top. No solicitor is going to entertain any ideas of sueing the college over something like this, its part and parcel of the course. If nothing else, its work experience, not a job so the EU regs on free movemnet of labour have nothing to do with it. Even the minimum wage act doesn't cover it - ask anyone in EBF how much they get paid when they're on work ex. in France.

INTRA isn't perfect but it's a very important part of the course. No matter how rubbish your job is, no matter how little it has to do with your course, its still time spent in a company and that will stand to you later.

Amen...

markpb wrote:

Personally I hated Languages and Computability in CA2 and would have happily dropped it if it was optional but it's part of the course and useful to have so its a core module...

Not to go off topic but I have found L&C and its follow up Complexity, completely and utterly useless. I learned absolutly nothing from either of them and all they did was take away valuable study time from other more useful subjects. Its something I'd like to take up with the programme board tbh, if only to see their reasonings to keeping it a core module.

Art_Wolf

Faceless Man wrote:

Not to go off topic but I have found L&C and its follow up Complexity, completely and utterly useless. I learned absolutly nothing from either of them and all they did was take away valuable study time from other more useful subjects. Its something I'd like to take up with the programme board tbh, if only to see their reasonings to keeping it a core module.

Heh I actually found some use out of it in my current job.. was rather shocked

bananarepublic

Sorry to hear all the horror stories , i worked full time for about 15months before going into college . It was relevant to my degree although a entry position should that be enough to get me an exemption or what do you need.

Ste.phen

if its relevant and was at least 6 weeks (i think) long, then in theory it's exemptable, its really down to the discretion of the INTRA cooridinator I think, but a few people in our year were exempted because they had relevant experience, so its worth a shot if you actually have something planned for the 6 months. If not, i'd recommend INTRA

rainbow kirby

I actually wish we had something like INTRA as part of our course! (Computer Science, UCD) It'd be really nice to have 6 months experience to throw on my CV at the end of my degree...