How to Clean

Patto

I am introducing a clean into my legs program. I've been advised not to rush into it and that it is quite tricky to learn good technique etc. Any advise? What type of weight should you be aiming to clean relative to what you can deadlift?

What is the deal with these Olimpic power lifts? Apparently they are great for developing speed by training the CNS. Can anyone explain this?

t-ha

It's an explosive lift. In other words, a deadlift could be lifted slowly or quickly ,largely depending on how heavy it is. A clean must be explosive or you'll miss the lift.

Any lift uses your nervous system to contract the right muscles at the right times, however the clean is particulalry good for a number of reasons;
1] It uses so many muscle groups - it's pretty much a total body workout.
2] The loading parameters are typically heavy - it's done in single lifts.
3] A successful lift depends alot not only on strength, but the exact timing of the lift and when that strength is applied.

Also, the particular neural pathway it reinforces (lower posterior chain mostly) and the rates of muscle contraction and lifting are very much the same as you find in many eplosive type sports movements (jumping/sprinting/etc.).

Some people say to begin very very light (broomstick light). I guess I'ld agree but I'ld move up the weight quick enough as you don't really understand how precise you need to be until you're moving heavier weights.

I could explain the lift but someone did it here already...

Patto

Super response t-ha. I'll get learnin':) I was amazed how difficult it is. It looks so easy when you watch someone do it.

Any idea how much you should be capable of cleaning relative to your 1RM deadlift? I'm reckoning about 70-80%. Abviously this wont happen for a few weeks but its nice to have a target.

t-ha

In theory that sounds about right. It really comes down to what weight you can accelerate explosively off the ground. If the gym will let you do them, try some high pulls. I think these are the best way of getting used to the explosive nature of the lift and gauging your weight, without having to have all the technical stuff nailed down.

BrianD3

Personally I find it difficult to get the hang (LOL) of the clean. I'd say my best clean is about 30% of my best deadlift. The Olympic lifts are excellent though, perhaps I'll get around to getting some proper coaching in them.

One lift that is explosive and is Olympic style but is a bit easier in terms of technique is the 1 arm snatch. Done with a dumbbell or even better with a barbell or even a kettlebell.

Another one is the dumbbell or kettlebell swing. This is an extremely easy one to learn.

There's also the push press - again quite easy to learn. Like a military press but with a dip and drive from the knees to get the bar moving.

So there's 3 more lifts for developing power.

Patto

Another point I forgot to ask. How many Olimpic lifting sessions should you aim to do in a week? All my weight lifting is focused on deveolping speed and strength for playing Gaelic football. I have also been advised not to do olimpic lifts within a week of a competitive game. Any advise on how to manage olimpic lifting sessions with other weight lifting sessions and normal gaa (high intensity cardio) training?

Transform I know you have posted some good advise on this point before, anything to add?

corkrob

can anyone provide an explanation that if so called olympic lifts train the cns to make you faster, then why does moving slower in a lift make you faster in a sprint/jump etc.? no
Specific practice at an activity is what makes the cns respond SPECIFICALLY to the stimulus.
Each motor pattern is individual. Carry over to other tasks is minimal if not at all.
Greater strength=greater speed(up to individual ability) and there are far better ways to increase strength than olympic lifts.

If people stopped listening to buzz words/rhetoric and clever marketing and actually look at the lifts for what they are. Dangerous, poor choices, not full range,high shearing force etc

because_I_can

corkrob wrote:

can anyone provide an explanation that if so called olympic lifts train the cns to make you faster, then why does moving slower in a lift make you faster in a sprint/jump etc.? no
Specific practice at an activity is what makes the cns respond SPECIFICALLY to the stimulus.
Each motor pattern is individual. Carry over to other tasks is minimal if not at all.
Greater strength=greater speed(up to individual ability) and there are far better ways to increase strength than olympic lifts.

If people stopped listening to buzz words/rhetoric and clever marketing and actually look at the lifts for what they are. Dangerous, poor choices, not full range,high shearing force etc

Hmmm i agree to a point and you have made a good point but i think you also need to realise that OL lifts arent buzz words. Things like wobble boards come under this category.

Although the OL lifts, when performed with significant loads, are CNS intensive, the fact that there is very little eccentric muscle action, especially in the 'power' cleans/snatches/jerks, means it is no where near as intensive as a sprint workout.

However the load plays a very significant role. OLs can be very CNS intensive if done for high %'s ala Abajiev

You cannot develop speed in a gym as the movements are far far slower than anything you do on the track.
The truth of the matter is you train in the gym to get "limit strength" and you run on the track to get "limit speed". OLs cannot develop limit strength as the loads arent significant. Deads and squats etc are essentially the only ways of developing limit strength in the gym.

BUT and this is a very big BUT - a sprinter is not a weightlifter or a BBer. He/she cannot spend all day in a weight room doing specific exercises for each muscle group to develop limit strength. So its basically a trade off.
OLs esp the power versions are by far the best overall body workouts. A power clean hits almost every muscle in the body and requires balance/strength/power

Thats pretty much the reason why the best athletes in the world have done OLs plus some limit stength work in the gym.
The results speak for themselves really.
If you can design a better weights program for an athlete and actually produce consistent results like what say bill starr has done for 30yrs then im all ears but untill then i'll be keeping my OLs firmly in pride of place in my weights program.

As for dangerous, well any exercise done incorrectly is dangerous. I would think the Bench press is the most dangerous lift if you were to categorise. Whereas a correctly executed snatch is poetry in motion. Plus you can always dump the weight in an ol. Ever try dumping a bench press? sore im sure...

corkrob

poetry in motion eh? Hmm you should research the forces involved in such an exercise. Why did you simply restate much of what I had said then contradict yourself by saying the lifts are the best overall?

As for buzz words. yes they are. The typical GAA player who comes into the gym with "im doing olympic lifts boy, im developing my speed" without having a clue why they are doing the exercise or what the exercise actually provides.
Believe me I see it every day. Old buzz words that die hard, through peoples ignorance.
Much of this comes from the NSCA, an organisation made up of weightlifters who want to protect their own interests.

You can argue against it all day , but you cant dispute the laws of physics. I've worked with force guages on such lifts and the results would frighten you. Especially regarding the lumbar spine.

So you suggest not doing squats or deads and replace them with cleans because they are more time efficient? What about the load at various points of the exercises?
I suggest reading about exercise volume and the requirement to build strength. Little more than 10 mins in the gym, if it takes more than that then its not intense enough. Nothing replaces brief, intense training. Like you said, they are not bodybuilders, not that that group need to spend much more time in the gym anyway!

because_I_can

outline for me a better program so for an athlete?

mine and practically the entire sporting world = powerclean, bench, squat. done in 45 mins. helps strength, power, core, CV to a degree etc.

yours = ?


ps - i dont know what gaa players you train with but i have yet to see ANY doing olympic lifts. the typical gaa player runs a mile at even the mention of the word gym. a lot of rugby players do PCs admittedly with terrible technique
the OL world in ireland is very very small. for you to say its widespread and typical has me wondering where ive had my head stuck this last while?

Patto

corkrob wrote:

poetry in motion eh? Hmm you should research the forces involved in such an exercise. Why did you simply restate much of what I had said then contradict yourself by saying the lifts are the best overall?

As for buzz words. yes they are. The typical GAA player who comes into the gym with "im doing olympic lifts boy, im developing my speed" without having a clue why they are doing the exercise or what the exercise actually provides.
Believe me I see it every day. Old buzz words that die hard, through peoples ignorance.
Much of this comes from the NSCA, an organisation made up of weightlifters who want to protect their own interests.

You can argue against it all day , but you cant dispute the laws of physics. I've worked with force guages on such lifts and the results would frighten you. Especially regarding the lumbar spine.

So you suggest not doing squats or deads and replace them with cleans because they are more time efficient? What about the load at various points of the exercises?
I suggest reading about exercise volume and the requirement to build strength. Little more than 10 mins in the gym, if it takes more than that then its not intense enough. Nothing replaces brief, intense training. Like you said, they are not bodybuilders, not that that group need to spend much more time in the gym anyway!

I assure you I am not working off buzz words or a self concocked programme. My coach has introduced a high pull into my programme. He suggested I could learn the clean. I posted the thread just for educational reasons. My back is not a concern it is pretty robust after 5 months of squats and deadlifts.

As for the "typical" Gaa player discussion. That will have to wait for another day.

In conclusion: I think I will learn the clean.

corkrob

just because he's a "coach" he must be right?

And as for the previous post, yes the squat and bench-fine, the power clean or hang pull-no way. And I actually dont recommend 'canned programs' as you do, I prefer to prescribe exercise on an individual basis. The muscles should be strengthened through a "FULL RANGE OF MOTION". The power clean, hang pull etc are not full range for anything, you cannot dispute this.
Strengthen the body in the gym. Work on the speed/skill outside it. They do not mix. Period.

The single largest problem is people's inability to think for themselves. Dont rely on the "experts", actually look at the movement. what in gods earth is the hang pull going to do?, other than kinetic chain 'hoopla' which bastardises the principle of specificity. Most of this utter crap was propogated by Paul Chek, who lined his pockets nicely while confusing the masses. Where do most "coaches" get their info? From the main sporting bodies, who recommend Mr Chek's and the NSCA's flawed theories.

Fine do the lifts, I'm not here to convince you otherwise. I simply stated facts. Facts that will probably take years to reach this sorry industry we have here in Ireland.

corkrob

because_I_can wrote:

outline for me a better program so for an athlete?

mine and practically the entire sporting world = powerclean, bench, squat. done in 45 mins. helps strength, power, core, CV to a degree etc.

yours = ?


ps - i dont know what gaa players you train with but i have yet to see ANY doing olympic lifts. the typical gaa player runs a mile at even the mention of the word gym. a lot of rugby players do PCs admittedly with terrible technique
the OL world in ireland is very very small. for you to say its widespread and typical has me wondering where ive had my head stuck this last while?

You made the typical flaw in arguments. Reduction to ridicule and attacking the person. My recommendations are nothing to do with the argument, I am stating points which you refuse to consider. And no I wouldnt train GAA players simply because of the brainwashing of the National Coaching Body. YES they do olympic lifts, senior club teams and intercounty also, both male and female. I've seen the 'programs' for 3 intercounty teams last season and they included clean and jerk, power cleans and jump squats(with a loaded barbell- bye bye knees)

because_I_can

im sorry if you think i was ridiculing you. i wasnt. im very interested in what you have to offer.
You have lots of valid points. in an ideal world yes you are correct in a lot of points. Yes you ideally "should" use the gym for limit strength only and the track for all speed work.
But its not that simple as ive already stated.
My point is that for 40+ yrs the power clean has been the "athletes exercise". So many of the top power athletes have been magnificient PCers. In fact i've read books whereby certain coaches can spot the potential of certain athlete's simply by how well they perform their first PC's. Its the exact same motion as a Vertical jump / sprint.
Also I presume you've heard of the NO-deadlift deadlift program.

Now you've come on here and told us what we're not to do but you've yet to tell us what to do and the results you've seen. I've dropped about .6s off my 30m time on my current program while adding 10lbs of muscle in 8 months and really the PC is responsible for most of it as it has strengthened my hams in particular as well as my back.

Last point - you knock jump squats, saying they're dangerous. Again i wouldnt say its any more dangerous than a bench press or even a back squat if they're done incorrectly. If done correctly a jump squat as with most exercises can be beneficial

RPGGAMER

i would say to learn it from an olympic lifter. its a great lift but usually done badly because its learn from picture sequences and words. Videos are good actually BUT get good ones. from olympic lifters doing it. Try ironmind.com they have many videos.

theres olympic lifters here:
Dublin: hercs gym
limerick: ul
Up north somewhere?
cork?

as a final note i would say many indeed most picture sequences and even videos are grossly wrong. like one of the latest on t-nation i think. thats not from me either thats from the lifters themselves. Take heed. same in all the NSCA publications on technique. hunchbacks"!!!!

IF YOU're gonna do something do it right. NOt to be picky but right is right because it works better making you faster, stronger etc etc doing it wrong means less coodination, speed, strength etc...

uptheroyals

corkrob wrote: »

The single largest problem is people's inability to think for themselves. Dont rely on the "experts", actually look at the movement. what in gods earth is the hang pull going to do?, other than kinetic chain 'hoopla' which bastardises the principle of specificity. Most of this utter crap was propogated by Paul Chek, who lined his pockets nicely while confusing the masses. Where do most "coaches" get their info? From the main sporting bodies, who recommend Mr Chek's and the NSCA's flawed theories.

.

I cannot understand how you can slag of someone like paul chek!! there is a reason that so many people around the world actually believe in this guy, he wont just say something, the chek institute backs everything up with studies!! Maybe its some typeof jealousy thing that you're not one of these 'experts' you talk of, but if you want to come up with some type of challenge to how paul chek is wrong about it, i would love to see it, but i think you may have to convince slightly more people than is on this website!! and if you could do that, fair play..... but i highly doubt it!!

d'Oracle

uptheroyals wrote: »

I cannot understand how you can slag of someone like paul chek!! there is a reason that so many people around the world actually believe in this guy, he wont just say something, the chek institute backs everything up with studies!! Maybe its some typeof jealousy thing that you're not one of these 'experts' you talk of, but if you want to come up with some type of challenge to how paul chek is wrong about it, i would love to see it, but i think you may have to convince slightly more people than is on this website!! and if you could do that, fair play..... but i highly doubt it!!

The person you just quoted has not posted in 4 years.

Jarren

another zombie thread:D

TommyKnocker

Zombie thread...

...finally laid to rest