"Ireland for The Irish"

MontgomeryClift

How do you feel about the title of this thread? Does it strike you as 'racist' or as a reasonable assertion? Do you think that this comment should apply to Ireland because unlike the US, Australia or Canada, Ireland is not a colony and should not be obliged to accept any number of foreigners? Or do you think that there should be no nationalities, no borders and everyone should all go where the money is?

Are you worried when you walk around your town and hear nothing but foreign languages? Do you long to hear an Irish accent? Have you asked a stranger something (for directions for example) and received an uncomprehending stare in return? How do you feel about this?

Are you worried about the fact that in under a decade Ireland has 'achieved' greater immigration levels than countries with a history of mass immigration like the UK and Holland? Do you see this as a further attempt by a minority of Irish to have the indigenous population replaced by foreigners, which is something that even Oliver Cromwell could not do? Is there a self-destructive tendency at work here?

Britain is our nearest neighbour and the country we are most like. Does it bother you then that here on boards.ie we have regular "English-bashing" threads about, among other things, their inability to pronounce 'Doherty,' yet it's considered very wrong to say a bad word about the hundreds of thousands of foreigners here that cannot even speak English?

The murder of Theo Van Gogh, July 7, Bradford Race Riots, the nightly murder among Chinese and Africans in London for control of the drug trade, the ousting of entire town populations for the creation of Middle-Eastern ghettoes - Do any of these things bother you? Have you any logical (not emotional) reason to believe similar won't happen here?

Muslims are demanding circumcision of male infants for religious reasons in Irish hospitals. Genital mutilation, in other words. They say Ireland should accommodate these practices. Is it unreasonable to ask that immigrants subscribe instead to an Irish way of life? Should we sweep our Christian past under the rug for fear of offending any minority, no matter how small?

Long serving, hard working employees of some of Dublin's biggest hotels including a large well-known hotel on O'Connell St., are being told to stay at home for weeks, and generally lied to and screwed around, in an attempt to make them leave without reduncancy and have them replaced by cheaper foreign labour. This is displacement. It is rife. Is it OK?

All this is happening quickly and on a huge scale, but there is no real discussion that I can see. Is immigration, to use a well-worn metaphor, the 'Elephant in the room?'

Beruthiel

*groan*
not another one

MontgomeryClift wrote:

but there is no real discussion that I can see

what do you call this then?

tbh

Its a good post, Monty. My views are probably best summed up by saying this: I welcome anyone - black, white, yellow or whatever - who wants to come here, live by our laws, raised their family and otherwise pull their weight. I don't want anyone here who's going to try to shaft the system - be they Irish, Non-Nationals whatever. If you are coming to live in our country, I expect you to abide by our laws, and customs. As long as no-one (Irish or Not) is trying to force their beliefs onto anyone else, we're all grand. I love hearing all the accents around the place - I love living in Ireland, nice to see others agree!

Miguel_Sanchez

MontgomeryClift wrote:

Are you worried when you walk around your town and hear nothing but foreign languages? Do you long to hear an Irish accent?

Hear nothing but foreign languages? Never happened to me buddy. Maybe you went on holiday by mistake and didn't realise you weren't at home anymore. I hear foreign languages around Dublin all the time, but do you know what I hear mostly? English. Doesn't bother me in the slightest if people are talking in their own langauge.

Muslims are demanding circumcision of male infants for religious reasons in Irish hospitals. Genetic mutilation, in other words.

Genetic mutilation? What you on about? Do you mean genital mutilation? And circumcision doesn't fall under this description. Many cultures have babies circumcised. All Jews do it - many American Christians, Catholics etc. do it. In fact I know American girls who were freaked out when they came to Ireland and saw their first uncircumcised penis.

but there is no real discussion that I can see.

Maybe you should open your eyes a bit - it's discussed ad nauseum.

egan007

Yet again people confusing Dublin with Ireland....
Dublin has plenty of nationalities the rest of the country is 99.999999% Irish

- Well actually my town has lots of....

Hold on - STFU

Bard

egan007 wrote:

Yet again people confusing Dublin with Ireland....
Dublin has plenty of nationalities the rest of the country is 99.999999% Irish

Rubbish... look at any major town... Dublin, Dundalk, Cork, Limerick, Galway... there's a healthy mix of cultures in all of them. The more rural areas are less of melting pots, certainly.

egan007

*groan*

MontgomeryClift

Jeff_Lebowski wrote:

Genetic mutilation? What you on about? Do you mean genital mutilation? And circumcision doesn't fall under this description. Many cultures have babies circumcised. All Jews do it - many American Christians, Catholics etc. do it. In fact I know American girls who were freaked out when they came to Ireland and saw their first uncircumcised penis.

Oops. Lol. That's what I meant, yeah. Just because lots do it doesn't make it right. Circumcision in the US is apparently a highly profitable business that some are now trying to change.

Iago

MontgomeryClift wrote:

How do you feel about the title of this thread?

sickened that we have to go through this again, wondering if there is any real point in my replying, yet feeling the need to all the same.

Does it strike you as 'racist' or as a reasonable assertion?

It strikes me as naive, uninformed and not really thought out very well. It strikes me as a prime example of the little-mindedness, short term thinking and begrudging attitude that is prevelant in this world right now.

Do you think that this comment should apply to Ireland because unlike the US, Australia or Canada, Ireland is not a colony and should not be obliged to accept any number of foreigners?

The US is not a colony, Canada is not a colony and I don't think australia is a colony (though I may be wrong) if you're referring to the past then I think that the natives of each of those countries should have the same entitlement that you believe the Irish should have now.

Or do you think that there should be no nationalities, no borders and everyone should all go where the money is?

One world, one people. If people want to work and contribute to a society of their choice what gives anyone else the right to say no?

Are you worried when you walk around your town and hear nothing but foreign languages? Do you long to hear an Irish accent? Have you asked a stranger something (for directions for example) and received an uncomprehending stare in return? How do you feel about this?

I'm not worried because I've always only heard a foreign language in my town. It might surprise you to know this but English is a foreign language. and I've often asked Irish people for directions and received an uncomprehending stare in return

Are you worried about the fact that in under a decade Ireland has 'achieved' greater immigration levels than countries with a history of mass immigration like the UK and Holland?

No that's the nature of the world we live in. People want to work and earn money, Ireland is currently the place to be in order to do that. The next generation may have to leave Ireland for the same reason as previous generations have. Would you rather there was no work or money here and you had to move to the UK to survive? If so do you believe that people in the UK would be right to refuse you access?

Do you see this as a further attempt by a minority of Irish to have the indigenous population replaced by foreigners, which is something that even Oliver Cromwell could not do? Is there a self-destructive tendency at work here?

Neither

Britain is our nearest neighbour and the country we are most like. Does it bother you then that here on boards.ie we have regular "English-bashing" threads about, among other things, their inability to pronounce 'Doherty,' yet it's considered very wrong to say a bad word about the hundreds of thousands of foreigners here that cannot even speak English?

Nothing that goes on inside boards.ie bothers me that much, it's the interweb, not life or death. I watched Hotel Rwanda last night, watching a film based on a true story of genocide while the people who could help (the western world) watched on and did nothing bothers me. The fact that situations such as this happen on a range of scales on a daily basis in various flashpoints around the world bothers me. The fact that here in Ireland we choose to ignore that fact and instead moan about how we can't afford that BMW or that 3rd holiday a year, or how we're sick of the rain and think that we have problems bothers me.

The murder of Theo Van Gogh, July 7, Bradford Race Riots, the nightly murder among Chinese and Africans in London for control of the drug trade, the ousting of entire town populations for the creation of Middle-Eastern ghettoes - Do any of these things bother you? Have you any logical (not emotional) reason to believe similar won't happen here?

The murder of Brian Murphy outside the Burlington Hotel

The murder of Robert Holohan in Cork

The republic of Irelands estimated €1 Billion a year drug trade and the running gun battles between drug gangs in Dublin

The increase in violent crimes amongst Irish teenagers and early twenties, the spiralling of gun crime and rape, the lack of respect for authority and the unwillingness of the state to do anything about it

These are all causes for concern, not a foreign national in sight

Muslims are demanding circumcision of male infants for religious reasons in Irish hospitals. Genetic mutilation, in other words. They say Ireland should accommodate these practices. Is it unreasonable to ask that immigrants subscribe instead to an Irish way of life? Should we sweep our Christian past under the rug for fear of offending any minority, no matter how small?

If their religon demands it then so be it. I don't think that the hundreds of thousands of Irish migrants over the centuries completely turned their backs on the Irish way of life, so why should muslims? Who are they harming?

Long serving, hard working employees of some of Dublin's biggest hotels including a large well-known hotel on O'Connell St., are being told to stay at home for weeks, and generally lied to and screwed around, in an attempt to make them leave without reduncancy and have them replaced by cheaper foreign labour. This is displacement. It is rife. Is it OK?

There are plenty of jobs for anyone who wants them in Ireland. The fact that it might not be what you dreamed of, or pay you what you want or be in the location you want is no excuse not to take it. Generally speaking the workers who come to this country work harder than Irish people because they need it more, it makes a difference to them. While we're giving out about the price of drink and holidays they are sending the vast majority of their paycheques to their families in order to try and create a better life for them. Who are we to stop them if they are willing to work hard and contribute to our society?

As I said in another thread, 10 years ago it was teenagers and people without qualifications who would work for less and work harder than established staff. Now it's foreign nationals, companies will always find an angle, is that the fault of the individual or the commericalisation of the world and the lack of integrity of companies?

All this is happening quickly and on a huge scale, but there is no real discussion that I can see. Is immigration, to use a well-worn metaphor, the 'Elephant in the room?'

If anybody is willing to come to Ireland and work, pay taxes, contribute to society and to an amalgamation of cultures then it can only be a good thing for the country.

Foreign nationals do not come here to "steal our women and take our jobs" they come here to forge a better life for themselves and in some cases their families, I welcome them all with open arms.

You don't want to lose your woman? Try harder
You don't want to lose your job? Work harder

mountainyman

MontgomeryClift wrote:

Long serving, hard working employees of some of Dublin's biggest hotels including a large well-known hotel on O'Connell St., are being told to stay at home for weeks, and generally lied to and screwed around, in an attempt to make them leave without reduncancy and have them replaced by cheaper foreign labour. This is displacement. It is rife. Is it OK?

set up a website listing the names and home addresses of the owners of these businesses. if they are public companies find the names of the MDs and financial controllers and put that up on the same website.

MM

Dirk Gently

The title of the thread did catch me and I was on my way in give out to you about racism but after reading your post I can see that you have genuine concerns and are not one of the extremist nut jobs that posts now and again.

Personally I don’t have a problem with different nationalities and different colors. I love the polish and they remind me of the Irish I remember as a kid when I use to travel down the country. Really nice genuine people. Unfortunately us Irish ourselves have lost this aspect of our national identity and become very individualistic.
There are Pilipino nurses living across the road from me and there are lovely people. While at college I met loads of different people, including two Muslims in my class, both sunny Muslims, one from Somalia and one from Algeria. Both were great students and gained the respect of the rest of us, especially with their willingness to help out us Irish eejits who didn’t bother to turn up to lectures half the time, even though English wasn't there first language.
The point I’m making is, keep Ireland for the best in our society whatever there backgrounds. As long as I don’t have to look behind me and watch out for people I don’t mind where they come from. Theres good and bad in all races of people. There are plenty of Irish who id love to stick on a boat and deport out of the country.
What does it mean to be Irish anyway? Is been Irish just about been white and been born within the boarders of this country, or is there more to our national identity. How many of us are really Irish. How many of us are Celts / Saxons / Europeans / Norman invaders. Somewhere down the line we united into a national identity but when did that happen and whats the criteria for calling yourself Irish.
If someone comes to this country and makes a go of their life and doesn’t harm anyone else I have no problem with them.

Dirk Gently

MontgomeryClift wrote:

Ireland is an English-speaking country. GET OVER IT.

not very "IRISH" of you monty.
Maybe you should have named the thread "Keep Ireland for the english speaking Irish"

Zombrex

MontgomeryClift wrote:

How do you feel about the title of this thread? Does it strike you as 'racist' or as a reasonable assertion?

Neither, since the "Irish" aren't a race, and keeping Ireland for the "Irish" is a nonsense statement because you haven't defined what "Irish" is.

Some people who use that attitute are talking about anyone born here.

Others don't mind western europeans (British, French, Dutch etc) people coming over here to make a life for themselves, and gaining Irish citizenship. They can be Irish so long as we keep out the Africans and Asians.

Others are talking about white catholic celts who are born raised and probably already died here.

Everyones view of what is Irish is different so how can we ever keep Ireland for the "Irish" when we don't even know that being "Irish" is.

Is the black guy I work with who's parents are from America but who was born here Irish? Is the french guy who married my friends seperated mother about 10 years ago allowed to stay here? Or is he destroying our culture? What about the nice Asian girl "Lisa" who works in my local Spar while she studies english? Is she a threat to the real Irish?

MontgomeryClift wrote:

Do you think that this comment should apply to Ireland because unlike the US, Australia or Canada, Ireland is not a colony and should not be obliged to accept any number of foreigners? Or do you think that there should be no nationalities, no borders and everyone should all go where the money is?

Why are the only too options ever offered in threads like this are a total claim down on all immigration or a complete open borders policy :rolleyes:

You are forgetting the thousand different options and possibilites in between those two polar extremes.

I would point out that Ireland probably has more responsibility to take in immigrants than any other European country because for hundreds of years nearly every other country in the world has taken in millions of Irish immigrants.

MontgomeryClift wrote:

Are you worried when you walk around your town and hear nothing but foreign languages?

I doubt anyone in Ireland has ever walked around their town and heard nothing but foreign languages, unless it was 3 am in the morning and they met 2 people.

But to be honest I really enjoy hearing the different languages, its a bit of external culture. Why do people care if the strangers on the bus or DART are talking in a foreign language. Are we that much of a gossip culture that we get upset if we cannot evesdrop on strangers converstations?

MontgomeryClift wrote:

Are you worried about the fact that in under a decade Ireland has 'achieved' greater immigration levels than countries with a history of mass immigration like the UK and Holland?

Not quite sure what "levels" you are talking about here. Our immigrant population is relatively small compared to other countries.

MontgomeryClift wrote:

Do you see this as a further attempt by a minority of Irish to have the indigenous population replaced by foreigners, which is something that even Oliver Cromwell could not do? Is there a self-destructive tendency at work here?

*Groan*

Where exactly are the "indigenous" population going? Last time I checked everyone was still here. Was there some mass exodus to the barren fields of Galways when I wasn't looking

MontgomeryClift wrote:

Britain is our nearest neighbour and the country we are most like. Does it bother you then that here on boards.ie we have regular "English-bashing" threads about, among other things, their inability to pronounce 'Doherty,' yet it's considered very wrong to say a bad word about the hundreds of thousands of foreigners here that cannot even speak English?

Are you saying we shouldn't slag the English or that it should be ok to slag the accients of other countries?

Because I've been slagging the French for years!

MontgomeryClift wrote:

Do any of these things bother you? Have you any logical (not emotional) reason to believe similar won't happen here?

*Groan*

Yes, because non-nationals invented crime. The same is already happening here, and it has nothing to do with immigrants. Our homegrown scumbags are prefectly capable of running riot over things like the drug trade. I would be blaming the rich South Dublin crowd who like a few lines of Coke every night before they go out, not the Nigeran working 3 shifts a day to scrape a living together.

MontgomeryClift wrote:

Muslims are demanding circumcision of male infants for religious reasons in Irish hospitals.

AFAIK male circumcision has always been legal in Ireland, but the Health Board didn't provide non-medial circumcision so people went to untrained "doctors". That is hardly a good situation now is it?

Is your objection to male circumcision or to non-nationals wanting it? Because they are too very different issues. Foreign nationals are not bringing male circumcision to Ireland, it has always been here. A lot of parents family members are circumcised .

MontgomeryClift wrote:

Should we sweep our Christian past under the rug for fear of offending any minority, no matter how small?

We should sweep our Christian past under the rug full stop! Or do we have a fond memory for pedo preist and child care services from hell?

The state should be completely secular in all its public dealings.

MontgomeryClift wrote:

This is displacement. It is rife. Is it OK?

Was it ever OK? When they were being replaced by people from down the country was it ok? Is it any more ok when an American IT company shuts up shop in California or Boston and moves to Dublin? What about when said company closes up shop in Dublin and moves to New Deli?

It is a bit stupid and hypocritical of Irish to complain about a global market and labour exchange taking place when our entire Celtic Tiger has been build on foreign companies coming to Ireland at the expense of their native work force, or the work force of other countries that they could have gone to.

MontgomeryClift wrote:

All this is happening quickly and on a huge scale, but there is no real discussion that I can see. Is immigration, to use a well-worn metaphor, the 'Elephant in the room?'

There is loads of "discussion". Far far to much in my mind, you cannot open the paper these days without seen yet another story about how immigrants are going to destroy our society and culture and soon we will all be forced to be Muslims and we will all be unemployed.

Hasn't happened yet, despite over 10 years of increased immigration and doomsday predictions. We are constantly told the end is just around the corner, but I'm not holding my breath, or dusting off my copy of the Quar'an just yet :rolleyes:

lostexpectation

MontgomeryClift wrote:

Long serving, hard working employees of some of Dublin's biggest hotels including a large well-known hotel on O'Connell St., are being told to stay at home for weeks, and generally lied to and screwed around, in an attempt to make them leave without reduncancy and have them replaced by cheaper foreign labour. This is displacement. It is rife. Is it OK?

Are you seriously telling me that this hasn't got more to do with the employers then any of the employees, this is where your going wrong!

HelterSkelter

MontgomeryClift wrote:

...Are you worried when you walk around your town and hear nothing but foreign languages? Do you long to hear an Irish accent? Have you asked a stranger something (for directions for example) and received an uncomprehending stare in return? How do you feel about this?...

Yeah, too many culchies in Dublin, I can't understand their bogger accents. I think we should kick them all out.:rolleyes:

Hagar

This is getting tedious.
I came to live in France and maybe a Frenchman or a Pole went to live in Ireland.
"So bleedin' whaa..." as the saying goes.

solas

Ireland has a culture dating back over 9000 years, as a race we are a hodge potch of everything from Norse to northern african, yet apprantly those Irish genes are extremely dominant and turn everything they touch into "Irish"
Give it 50 years and everything will be "Irish" again.

<this post may contain traces of irony>

Karl Hungus

Bah, this is probably my third draft of this damned post. I know exactly what I want to say, but I'm not sure how to say it, or get it across, and I seem to be trying to word it so that certain members won't jump down my throat. I'm tired of this so I'll just blurt it out:

This situation is re-affirming Irish culture. Yes, we're hearing a lot more foreign language around, but (Maybe I'm alone in this?) I've also been hearing a lot more Irish spoken aswell, or at the very least small bits thrown into conversations, greetings in Irish, that sort of thing.

I think Ireland is copping onto the fact that it's not something we can take for granted, and I think the increased amount of foreigners about are just re-enforcing a cultural/national identity.

MontgomeryClift

Right. Lots of nonsense there in those two long posts about there being plenty of Irish criminals already, Irish emigration in the past, work harder (right! - take a pay cut more like - emigrants aren't hired for working hard, but for working for peanuts) Irish being our real language not English etc. The usual old stuff, all of which is beside the point.

I think it's difficult enough to communicate with people without them having an inability to speak English. That's one way that foreign languages disconcert me. But we're to take it for granted that anyone here for long enough will learn English, so that shouldn't be a permanent problem. Hopefully!

Anyone who lived in Britain in the 60s and 70s can tell you that the first generation immigrants - Jamaicans, Africans etc. - were the nicest people you could meet. But they were nice because they were still Jamaican or African and had a certain hope that one day they might return to their own country; that their stay in Britain was only temporary. But then they realize that they never will return and they had to become permanent residents in a foreign place. They were unofficially British.

You see, there's a denial about emigration; a hope of one day returning. And any of the people of 80s Britain to the present day can tell you that second and subsequent generations were the ones with the problem, and weren't as 'nice' as their parents. Who could blame them, being segregated in ghettoes and citizens of nowhere. What plans have we here to ensure that doesn't happen? Is it expected that it won't happen because Poles and Lithuanians are not black, or because they will all return home in a few years, as I'm sure most Poles and Lithuanians try to convince themselves?

Iago

MontgomeryClift wrote:

Right. Lots of nonsense there in those two long posts about there being plenty of Irish criminals already, Irish emigration in the past, work harder (right! - take a pay cut more like - emigrants aren't hired for working hard, but for working for peanuts) Irish being our real language not English etc. The usual old stuff, all of which is beside the point.

all of which is exactly the point. Your contention seems to be that if we disagree with you and give valid reasons for that disagreement then it's nonsense.

frankly speaking, you strike me as another person with a grudge because you didn't get the girl/job/house that you wanted and you feel that this is in some way down to the fact that there are now these "foreign peoples" in Ireland. Well boo hoo, maybe if you spent less time moaning and more time embracing the changes in Ireland you would be more successful.


Just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it nonsense, there are some simple facts at play here

Fact, our national language is Irish not English

Fact, there was violence before foreign nationals started to immigrate here

Fact, there is already a roaring drug trade in Ireland, run by the Irish

Fact, foreign nationals do work harder than the Irish and in the jobs the Irish have no stomach for

Fact, bigotry is bigotry no matter how fancily dressed up it is.


I'm done with this thread, there's no point in trying to make you see sense because you're blind by choice not circumstance.

Zombrex

MontgomeryClift wrote:

Irish criminals already

The rise in violent crime in Dublin and the other cities in recent years is related to Irish drug dealers killing other Irish drug dealers. Unless you have some statistics to show that violent crime increased siginificantly in Dublin due to immigration?

MontgomeryClift wrote:

Irish emigration in the past, work harder (right! - take a pay cut more like - emigrants aren't hired for working hard, but for working for peanuts)

An employeer has to pay min-wage, and most pay more than min wage.

The reason they are taken on is because Irish people won't take the job in somewhere like Spar or McDonalds. It is harder for an employer to take on a non-national that it is to take on a Irish person. Lots more paper work, lots more hassle. They employeer is hardly going to go out of his way to take on a non-national that he would have to pay the same as and Irish person if there was a queue of Irish people wanting the job.

The simple fact is we need immigration because Irish won't do these jobs. So either a choice between non-nationals (hot girls from Poland or China) or little 16 year old Irish people, because they are the only ones that would take the jobs. Personally I choose the hot Polish girls

MontgomeryClift wrote:

Irish being our real language not English etc. The usual old stuff, all of which is beside the point.

Not really, you are complaining that people are not talking "our" language except it isn't "our" language at all.

MontgomeryClift wrote:

I think it's difficult enough to communicate with people without them having an inability to speak English.

Why do you want to communicate with them? So you can tell them to all go home?

MontgomeryClift wrote:

But then they realize that they never will return and they had to become permanent residents in a foreign place. They were unofficially British.

Actually they become officially British AFAIK.

MontgomeryClift wrote:

What plans have we here to ensure that doesn't happen?

Well your attitute to things like their language and them taking all our jobs doesn't help now does it.

bonkey

MontgomeryClift wrote:

What plans have we here to ensure that doesn't happen?

Well the plan basically revolves around a fundamental acceptance of the incumbents by the existing populace.

You seem to be doing your darndest to undermine such an acceptance ever occurring, whilst at the same time warning us all of the dangers that will follow should such an acceptance not occur.

Interesting approach.

arthur_dent

It's interesting reading,Montgomery!

I do get the feeling that you have an internal problem you need to resolve - some great anger directed at other people. Do all of these people cause you any harm or are you just pissed off / having a semantic discussion ?

Loads of people in various countries are not even that native as they would think... The majority of people in the midlands in england have their inheritance from danish vikings settling down there - hence the ending "by" in loads of english villages. In 886 England was half danish!!! Native yeah right!

Dublin was FOUNDED by norwegian vikings ( Turgeis ) - later ruled by Olaf the White...Explain "St Olafs" school in Balally... St Olafs GAA in Black Rock. Did you think those names were native or what???

Do you speak Irish yourself? As pointer out earlier on in the thread - english is not the native language of Ireland.

MontgomeryClift wrote:

Should we sweep our Christian past under the rug for fear of offending any minority, no matter how small?

In case you didn't know this - christianity is an IMPORTED religion in Ireland. Before christianity ( catholicism that is ) came here - equality between the two genders existed on a level never matched by catholicism.

I'm not slagging off catholicism - just pointing out obvious historical facts it would seem you were arrogantly ignoring...

Coming from a different country myself ( Norway ) I feel that your lack of empathy and understanding is slightly worrying. Why is this so paramount to you? Have you been outside of Ireland to any degree yourself ?

No-one are separate islands, skin colours and different ways of behaviour just represents different approaches to life - not something to be taken up as a personal insult. I don't think anyone should be allowed to cause any behaviour to any other person whatsoever - no matter where they come from and who they are.

Wouldn't it be more interesting to discuss how laws and regulations should apply to these various parts of society instead of mindlessly slagging them off?

I don't think anyone minds talking about these things - but OF COURSE with an open mind... Ranting never helps - constructive criticism does however..

I can see why people WOULD react to the article as it doesn't come across as very well thought through.

We all live in the same world - what's the big deal ???

GuanYin

Good post there by arthur_dent, better than the thread deserves.

I look at the OP and laugh at how biased and slanted the argument is.

English is a minority language in the world, when other nationals come to Ireland, they can't be expected to have fluent english any more than you can be expected to converse in 15 different Chinese dialects were you to go there. Those who come here and are serious about staying, will learn english, it takes time and it demands patience on our part. That said, as a country that has basically rejected its own language (go look at various threads on boards as a reflection of this), it kinda follows suit that people should be so eager for everyone else to lose their national identity, we did it so well. (there was alot of tongue in cheek there before I upset too many people).

As far as jobs go. Are you nuts? I would love, just for a laugh, if ever foreign national in Ireland stopped working for just one day. This country would collapse. The health system and the service sector would shut down. The fact of the matter is, Ireland NEEDS the amount of immigrants it has right now.

We haven't enough trained people to run the vastly understaffed sham of a health system we have now and the way the Irish education system is set up, that isn't likely to change anytime soon. Most Irish people consider themselves too good to work in service jobs. Have yo seen McDonalds latest ad campaign?

It is true there has been a recent mass influx of foreign nationals, but that is more a reflection of how behind Ireland is compared to every other developed country (or how new and fragile or economy is). So what though? Ireland is the last country on the planet that can compain about immigrants, Irish people and culture have infested nearly every habitable part of the world.

States of transition are always tough but they always settle down again after. The only reason it goes bad and you get problems like the cases you mention in your first post is when idiots and ignorants start stirring trouble to generate the atmosphere where something like that can happen (I just see bonkey stated that far more eloquently).

billy the squid

MontgomeryClift wrote:

Right. Lots of nonsense there in those two long posts about there being plenty of Irish criminals already, Irish emigration in the past, work harder (right! - take a pay cut more like - emigrants aren't hired for working hard, but for working for peanuts) Irish being our real language not English etc. The usual old stuff, all of which is beside the point.

The fact that there were plenty of Irish criminals before immigration is not nonsence. You only have to look at the likes of the Dunne Family, the General, and the numerous feuding gangs that are going about both in Dublin and here in Limerick to realise that they are not immigrants, and they didn't suddenly become criminals because of the influx of foreign nationals.

The fact that Irish employers are hiring foreign nationals and paying them less is more of an inditment on the employer for screwing his staff, and the trade unions for letting it happen, than it is an indidtment on the foreign national.

I think it's difficult enough to communicate with people without them having an inability to speak English. That's one way that foreign languages disconcert me. But we're to take it for granted that anyone here for long enough will learn English, so that shouldn't be a permanent problem. Hopefully!

What about a deaf person or a person with a speech impediment, who in many cases will never speak "proper english." And if you are finding it dificult to communicate with others before you encounter someone who cannot speak English, then it is yourself that has the problem and not the foreign national. I have no difficulties speaking to others. I might have to ask a foreign national to repeat something if I don't understand them, however I might require anyone to repeat something if i don't understand them for a multitude of reasons, whether it be because I didn't hear them properly, or if an environment we are talking is too noisy or whatever. Patience is a virtue, you should learn to be more tolerant towards others. When I heard the tory island accent for the first time I found it next to impossible to understand, would you suggest that people from donegal are not welcome in this country because YOU cannot understand them?

Kotek Besar

I know this is an old thread, but it genuinely makes for interesting reading. I'm British. I'm proud to be British, but I'm also proud to live in Ireland..

I've lived here for 18 months and love the country to bits. Life here is generally less stressful, more easy-going and straightforward, compared with life in the UK. I work hard, pay my dues and abide by the law..

But do you know what? Most of my friends are non-nationals - Polish, Malaysian, Nigerian, for example. I didn't mean for this to be the case, but I have to say that when Irish people hear my English accent, be it in the bank, the post office, the Garda station even - they generally give me a funny look, and their "tone" seems to change to a less friendly one. Makes me really quite sad, you know?

looksee

Brave words Benifa, I'm putting in a word of support because I could say much the same thing as you, except that I am here 35 years and can only claim to Irish acquaintences rather than friends. My friends are of other nationalities. I too find this rather sad and I can empathise with you.

mike65

Petes Sake! I thought this was a fresh rant. :mad:

but I have to say that when Irish people hear my English accent, be it in the bank, the post office, the Garda station even - they generally give me a funny look, and their "tone" seems to change to a less friendly one. Makes me really quite sad, you know?

Interesting, I'm an Englander, though here since childhood so my accent which was never harsh may well be softened a bit but I've almost never had that sort of thing happen. Sometimes I find an "assertive" Brit-tone quite handy tbh, you can get someones attention remarkably quickly. It could be down to where you live, some parts of Ireland are very 'Irish' in a bad way - ie closed off in terms of thought and actions while other bits can be quite cosmopolitan and full of long-term blow-ins who rub up against the natives without any bother.

Mike.

Hagar

mike65 wrote:

Sometimes I find an "assertive" Brit-tone quite handy tbh, you can get someones attention remarkably quickly.

The colonial days are long gone Mike, I wouldn't say you get too many people jumping to attention and tugging the forelock everytime the hear an "assertive Brit-tone". If you Englanders still have the mind-set that they should, I can see where your problems lie.

mike65

Typical that you should pick that up with a post colonial chip on your shoulder, I simply meant that someone who's attention I require hears a 'different' accent quicker, its like Spanish students get slagged off for being noisy - its just a lot of Spanish teens! They're no louder just different.

Mike.

Hagar

Shure I'll be after getting rid of that chip now Sor, right away Sor, right away now, this very minute.
/Tugs forelock, backs away bowing obsequeiously*...





* May not have tugged forelock or bowed. It's only the Internet after all...

mike65

I'll assume you're being as 'dust-dry' as my humour can be - which sometimes gets lost on boards.ie patrons

Mike.

Hagar

Doing my best here Mike, just doing my best.:D

DonkeyStyle \o/

Iago wrote:

Fact, foreign nationals do work harder than the Irish

How's that a fact exactly?
I'm sure you'd be the first to point out that not all foreign nationals are X, Y or Z.
Fact: Foreign nationals can be just as lazy and incompetent as their Irish counterparts... hurray for equality!

Kotek Besar

looksee wrote:

Brave words Benifa, I'm putting in a word of support because I could say much the same thing as you, except that I am here 35 years and can only claim to Irish acquaintences rather than friends. My friends are of other nationalities. I too find this rather sad and I can empathise with you.

Thanks looksee - it's nice to know I'm not alone!

mike65 wrote:

It could be down to where you live, some parts of Ireland are very 'Irish' in a bad way - ie closed off in terms of thought and actions while other bits can be quite cosmopolitan and full of long-term blow-ins who rub up against the natives without any bother.Mike.

Actually mate, I live in Waterford City like you! Which is not exactly out in the sticks. I guess maybe it is less for you because your accent is softened. In fact, I often find that if I too "soften" my accent a little, and greet the shopkeeper with "well" rather than hello, the conversation goes a lot friendlier!

It doesn't always work though. Yesterday, for example, I was in the council office trying to get a residents parking permit. I have all the required documents and the fee, but every time there's an excuse why I can't get the permit (which is supposed to be issued while you wait, according to the local traffic warden). Yesterday was my fifth trip there in a week. When I eavesdrop how the staff talk to the other customers, they sound very nice and friendly - normal. But when it comes to my turn their faces seem to change and they're always ever so stern and uncooperative, as if they are purposely trying to be difficult.

The council office is just an example. I get this almost every time I go out and to be honest, I've now become quite used to it. I have some colleagues who are also Brits, been here longer than me. They say they just got used to it. They tell me the important thing is to keep on being friendly, never bite the bait. Sooner or later attitudes have to change.

mike65

'Well boy!' You are in Waterford With regard to the council office malarky I suspect you and they are just at regular loggerheads by this stage.

Without being too specific which area are you living/shopping/working in?

Mike.

ps check out the Waterford City board, its mainly friendly.

Kotek Besar

mike65 wrote:

'Well boy!' You are in Waterford With regard to the council office malarky I suspect you and they are just at regular loggerheads by this stage.

Without being too specific which area are you living/shopping/working in?

Mike.

ps check out the Waterford City board, its mainly friendly.

Hi Mike,

The council office was just an example, one of many. Anyway it's cool - it's just how it is. I chose to live here at the end of the day, no-one forced me to move here, so I can't complain too much. Anyway, apart from this issue I love living here in every way . I'm just accepting the way it is these days anyway.

I'm living right in the city centre, about 5 minutes walk from the bus station.

johnnyskeleton

benifa wrote:

But do you know what? Most of my friends are non-nationals - Polish, Malaysian, Nigerian, for example. I didn't mean for this to be the case, but I have to say that when Irish people hear my English accent, be it in the bank, the post office, the Garda station even - they generally give me a funny look, and their "tone" seems to change to a less friendly one. Makes me really quite sad, you know?

English people shout "F***in' Paddies" at Irish people in England. If an Irish person insults you for being English, don't retreat into yourself, but have a bit of banter. It depends what part of England you're from I suppose.

Is it possible that most of your friends are Polish, Malaysian, Nigerian because the people you work/live/socialise with are Polish, Malaysian, Nigerian and has nothing to do with Irish people not wanting to be your friend? I know a few non-Irish people who complain that they don't have many Irish friends, but it's because they don't make the effort.

As for the OP, Polish girls are (almost invariably) hot - that's all I have to say about immigration.

Kotek Besar

johnnyskeleton wrote:

English people shout "F***in' Paddies" at Irish people in England. If an Irish person insults you for being English, don't retreat into yourself, but have a bit of banter. It depends what part of England you're from I suppose.

I think you're missing the point. I'm not talking about a bit of banter, or even outright insults. I'm talking talking about the difference in the way people treat someone with an accent like mine. The noticeable change in tone, facial expression etc.

johnnyskeleton wrote:

Is it possible that most of your friends are Polish, Malaysian, Nigerian because the people you work/live/socialise with are Polish, Malaysian, Nigerian and has nothing to do with Irish people not wanting to be your friend?

Not exactly. Although, how does one make friends, if not through work / neighbours or other form of incidental meeting? Fortunately, my work place is filled with many different nationalities, though naturally, Irish people make up the majority. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Irish people treat me (other other British friends I have) horribly, that's not my point at all. But genuinely, there is a certain amount of animosity that I feel comes out when some Irish people hear me speak. In some cases I'm sure the person is not even aware. Perhaps, subconsciously, they become automatically.. "wary", if that's the right word (and it probably isn't). It's difficult to explain. Perhaps it goes back generations, this uneasy feeling about the English. Perhaps I'm to expect it, some might say even deserve it. Or perhaps we Brits just imagine the whole thing, perhaps we're just paranoid! Don't think so though.

brianthebard

egan007 wrote:

Yet again people confusing Dublin with Ireland....
Dublin has plenty of nationalities the rest of the country is 99.999999% Irish

Speaking as a person in the rural west of Ireland-you're talking through your hat.

mike65

Indeed egan007 should get out more.

Mike.

seahorse

benifa wrote:

Perhaps, subconsciously, they become automatically.. "wary", if that's the right word (and it probably isn't). It's difficult to explain. Perhaps it goes back generations, this uneasy feeling about the English. Perhaps I'm to expect it, some might say even deserve it.

Well, just firstly to clarify, my sons father was English and my ex fiancee was from the Shankill road, so I've no problem with the Brits, had some great sex with them down the years, lol.

But I think "wary" may be just the right word, and it dosent go back generations Benifa, it goes back centuries, many of them in fact. But you personally of course dont deserve any animosity for the iniquities of the past in which you had no personal involvement at all. But you have to remember, this is, or ought to be, a sovereign nation, and the ‘wariness’ you describe is in response to British imperialism, which continues, after 800+ years, to refuse allow it its true nature.

I have to ask you, while you're wondering why Irish people would treat you in this way, what have you ever done to expressly remove yourself from that British positon? For instance, have you ever contacted the British government to voice your displeasure at their continued colonisation of one quarter of this island and continued interference in Irish affairs? If you had, you’d have something well worth saying to the next person who treated you differently on account of your heritage.

Kotek Besar

seahorse wrote:

Well, just firstly to clarify, my sons father was English and my ex fiancee was from the Shankill road, so I've no problem with the Brits, had some great sex with them down the years, lol.

lol - this made me chuckle..

seahorse wrote:

have you ever contacted the British government to voice your displeasure at their continued colonisation of one quarter of this island and continued interference in Irish affairs? If you had, you’d have something well worth saying to the next person who treated you differently on account of your heritage.

No, I haven't. But I have attempted to "educated myself". By this, I mean I've taken an interest in learning Irish history for myself. Because I'll be perfectly honest, from what I remember in school (I'm 25), we don't really get taught about Irish history (at all? perhaps someone confirm).

So, about a year ago, I went to the local Sinn Fein office. Don't laugh, please, I'm deadly serious. I genuinely wanted to learn what all this 800 years of oppression was all about. I went in as a clean slate, wanting to learn. A very nice woman (who, if I remember, had an English accent herself), sat me down and gave me a brief history lesson. I was also given a short book to read. Goodness, by the time I left that office I was almost ashamed to be British! I certainly felt (and still do feel) ashamed of what the British did to this country and it's people.

Equally, I feel angry that I did not learn about Irish history when I was growing up. Why is it not in the curriculum? I tell you, I remember learning about Pompeii as a kid, that really helped me in life didn't it. Frankly I'm outraged that the history of our relationship with our closest neighbours is not taught in British schools.

Mods - sorry for going off topic a bit..

Saruman

How did this thread go from... well whatever it was in the beginning down the usual English bashing nonsense that has been done to death..
My response is always the same... But if anyone cares they can search for it because im not typing it out again.

nonsense.. someone bring this thread back to people speaking funny languages and not English...

seahorse

benifa wrote:

So, about a year ago, I went to the local Sinn Fein office. Don't laugh, please, I'm deadly serious. I genuinely wanted to learn what all this 800 years of oppression was all about. I went in as a clean slate, wanting to learn.

Well fair play to you Benifa, I'd say you were an unusual visitor to your local Sinn Fein office and the cause of a couple of conversations after you walked out the door, lol!

Honestly, I view English people like people everywhere, what other way is there to view them? The vast majority of them are just decent people trying to get on with their lives. I dont expect them to carry a mantle of shame on account of the behaviour of prior generations, that'd be ridiculous; but I'd be lying if I said it never bothered me that there was no widespread public voice from the English that attempted to persuade their government out of our affairs.

As to the lack of education in English schools regarding the history between these two islands, well all I can say is when I do something shameful I am reluctant to share it with the world.

seahorse

It's just occured to me Benifa, that lack of education likely has a lot to do with the lack of a public oppositional voice I was talking about!

I think we better let it go here before the mods start giving out;)

maireadmarie

Basically people all over the world are the same, even in their differences. We're all the human race. To my mind, anyone who wants to live in Ireland, honour our traditions, and help make us a country to be proud of (not just talking about football here ) should be welcomed in with open arms.

mike65

I have to ask you, while you're wondering why Irish people would treat you in this way, what have you ever done to expressly remove yourself from that British positon? For instance, have you ever contacted the British government to voice your displeasure at their continued colonisation of one quarter of this island and continued interference in Irish affairs? If you had, you’d have something well worth saying to the next person who treated you differently on account of your heritage.

Where to start with the above? Maybe benifa has no political axe to grind eh?
Or maybe he/she (?) is a mad frothing-mad Unionist bible basher (unlikely I know) or maybe benifa belives in a democratic vote on such matter?

No-one should have to appologise for "thier" collective heritage.

Mike.

Kotek Besar

I think this thread's going in a little bit the wrong direction, and if it's my fault I'm sorry..

I only meant to share my experiences, being a Brit living in Ireland. Didn't really expect that to go down the whole Northern Ireland route..

mike65

Tis boards! Its what we do.

Mike.

Marksie

MontgomeryClift wrote:

Long serving, hard working employees of some of Dublin's biggest hotels including a large well-known hotel on O'Connell St., are being told to stay at home for weeks, and generally lied to and screwed around, in an attempt to make them leave without reduncancy and have them replaced by cheaper foreign labour. This is displacement. It is rife. Is it OK?

I will deal with this point as the others aren't worth the typing time. it is the EMPLOYERS who are responsible for that, Irish or not. SIPTU recognises this and will support non-nationals even though they are not union members.
If you want it in a historical context then IBEC are the new landlords.

And who do you think is going to make up the shortfall in the pensions..all those who take the lower paid jobs.

Interestingly, and linked to one posters comments, this issue of women in business magazine involved a query about someone expanding a computer based business, architectural design. They wanted to expand, the advice... you have email, employ people in estonia, they are highly ijntelligent and are much cheaper!

However, if you want to try and see why cultural diversity is so important, and if you can stomach a series about england. Catch Eddie Izzard's "mongrel Britain". It looks at the successive waves of immigration throughout history and how it has positively enriched british society. Why shuld the same be any different for Ireland.