Ireland's greatest politian

walrusgumble

so wo do you think was ireland's greatest politician? this forum has already spoken of de valera and collins. as we are now in the 21st century, we should look back on other people of the past and present who have contributed todays society.

One may say it is Daniel O'Connell, for his work in granting the voting and respresentative rights for Catholics and his efforts with the poor of Ireland.

Or maybe Charles S Parnell, the "Uncrowned King of Ireland". this man fought for the land league and made home rule and more important issue in Westminister. Furthermore he revolutionised who politics was run. the Irish Parliamentary Party were the first paid Representatives who vowed to unite as a single unit when voting, much like the parties ethos of today.

maybe someone may say Arthur Griffith. the founder of Sinn Fein, a loyal nationalist who believed that it would be more efficient to fight the might of the Empire by Constitutional means. The head delegate at the treaty, possibly one of the most under rated and under estimated founding fathers of this state.

What about the more modern politicians. Sean Lemass was responsible for the establishment of the Irish Economy that we enjoy to day. although he had previously been a member of fianna fail's programme of self sufficency, he, along with the most influentail aide TK Whittaker, help transform Ireland from an poor backward rural economy to a state that we would not have experienced today.

maybe Dr Noel Browne for his attempt to establish the Mother- Child Scheme. Or Jack Lynch or Mary Robinson for her role in the Macgee Case and her humintarian role whilst President for helping to draw the worlds attention to the third world.

What does the forum really think of Charles J Haughey?. As a legisature he is responsible for the Succession Act, Artist Tax Exemptions and his role in the foundation for the Celtic Economy(yes he was)

so what is your opinion?

JohnnySideburns

In the modern era, I would say Charlie McCreevey mainly due to the fact he was one of the few politicians who put what was morally right in front of his own political ambitions. In 1982, after the mass chickening out by his Fianna Fail colleagues to Dessie O'Malley's leadership challenge to Haughey, McCreevy did a brave thing by single handedly laying a motion of no-confidence in Charlie Haughey's leadership. This was defeated and cost McCreevey dear in that he was left on the backbenches until Albert Reynolds took reign in 1991/1992. A huge sacrifice for something that was morally right (getting rid of the virus that was Haughey). He also gave us SSIA's!!!!!!!!

Over the entire course of Irish history, I would say the popular choice Michael Collins. To sign a stepping stone Treaty that he described as his own death warrant in an effort to save thousands of innocent lives was an admirable thing and proves he only cared about Ireland and not his position in it (unlike that "Cut through rivers of blood" glory hunting American b*stard, you know who I'm talking about!!!!)

JohnnySideburns

walrusgumble wrote:

What does the forum really think of Charles J Haughey?. As a legisature he is responsible for the Succession Act, Artist Tax Exemptions and his role in the foundation for the Celtic Economy(yes he was)

In relation to your "yes he was" quote, here is something I wrote on another thread that might open your eyes on Haughey's turning around of the economy.

Before Garret Fitzgerald resigned, he implemented a regime of "squeezing Haughey by the balls" [to do what was necessary to turn the economy around] on seeing that he was in a minority Government position after the 1987 election and could be removed from power by the opposition, if they so wished. While this point is debatable, the fact that Fianna Fail went into the 1987 election vigourously campaigning against health budget cuts and then mysteriously turning around on this on getting into power, does contribute to this argument. If Fitzgerald (and Dukes), hadn't done this, it's arguably quite likely that Haughey wouldn't have turned the economy around.

spanner

I know he has not been a poliitian in the Republic but I think John Hume is the greatest politican in Ireland and definately in Northern Ireland. He has tiredlessly worked for equal rights, peace and social justice.
A great man. I think he is our Martin Luther King

Dirk Gently

For impact and success I would have to say Mick Collins,
But from a political point of view and what they stood for even though not making a lasting impression on the policies of the country it would be James Connolly and Jim Larkin.
John Hume is another good example as was mentioned. Very under rated by people in what he achieved.

PHB

Parnell by a country mile.

Herbert Henry Asquith, described him as one of the three or four greatest men of the nineteenth century
Lord Haldane described him as the strongest man the British House of Commons had seen in 150 years.

The man was a force of nature

nollaig

Leamass

Hogmeister B

nollaig wrote:

Leamass

Whoah, don't try too hard to convince us...

ateam

PHB wrote:

Parnell by a country mile.

Herbert Henry Asquith, described him as one of the three or four greatest men of the nineteenth century
Lord Haldane described him as the strongest man the British House of Commons had seen in 150 years.

The man was a force of nature

He did not achieve his main goal - home rule for Ireland and the land issue was not completely sorted out in his life time, so I would dispute his eminence.

I would say Bertie Ahern.

spanner

I think parnell was a great politican, in the sense he was very cunning and devious. He was well able to manipulate situations to his own end. However he really did not achieve anything tangable. the Land struggle was really won by Micheal Davitt.

Yes Micheal Collins did achieve great things but I do think some of it is quite overblown. He effectively got us home rule, which John Redmond had before the out break of war.

I belive one of the greatest bits of diplomatically conducted by an Irish politican for Ireland was Kevin O'Higgins in brokering the statue of westminister which in fact voided the treaty altogether.

I to belive Kevin O'Higgins was the greatest Irish politican, he sailed ireland through one of the most violent parts of its history and provided a steady hand fought out a stable democracy for ireland. If you look at the other countries created around the same time as ireland none were as sucessful as us

ateam

spanner wrote:

I think parnell was a great politican, in the sense he was very cunning and devious. He was well able to manipulate situations to his own end. However he really did not achieve anything tangable. the Land struggle was really won by Micheal Davitt.

Yes Micheal Collins did achieve great things but I do think some of it is quite overblown. He effectively got us home rule, which John Redmond had before the out break of war.

I belive one of the greatest bits of diplomatically conducted by an Irish politican for Ireland was Kevin O'Higgins in brokering the statue of westminister which in fact voided the treaty altogether.

I to belive Kevin O'Higgins was the greatest Irish politican, he sailed ireland through one of the most violent parts of its history and provided a steady hand fought out a stable democracy for ireland. If you look at the other countries created around the same time as ireland none were as sucessful as us

What are you basing this on?? The Statue of Westminster came in 1931, O'Higgins died in 1927.

Secondly, i'm not sure the word "sailed" can be used with regard to O'Higgins, he was murdered on the steps of his house in 1927.

Drummerboy2

Noel Browne – took on the church and got shafted for his troubles. His Mother & Child scheme was a forerunner to social welfare. Totally unselfish is his actions.

nollaig

Noel Browne – took on the church and got shafted for his troubles. His Mother & Child scheme was a forerunner to social welfare. Totally unselfish is his actions.

But he achieved shag all really.

funktastic

Noel Browne- I wouldn't agree with. He did turn around a lot of the health system, some of which was in place by the outgoing Fianna Fail government by '48, but he was also undeniably stubborn, childish and, from his stature in 1951 having left Clann na Poblachta, should have gone much further in politics rather than rambling from party to party for the rest of his career. Definitely an idealist, who couldn't work with bureaucracy, which doesn't really make a great politician. He's just a somewhat romantic figure for standing up to the Church with the Mother and Child crisis, but, when people read deeper, it would have been implemented if Browne was less stubborn John Horgan's biography of him 'Passionate Outisder' is good, and his own vitriolic memoirs, 'Against the Tide' are very readable and at times quite funny. His whole 'anti-Mary Robinson' tirade at the end of his career when he was, more or less rightly snubbed, as a Labour party candidate for the presidency was indicative of his childishness. He constantly lambasted her to the end of her presidency out of sheer spite.

I would go along with Lemass- for having the balls to reverse his old, and FF's, policies on the economy and open up to the wider world. Although not a politician (a civil servant) was voted 'Irishman of the 20th Century' by RTE. When talking about Lemass' achievements, it is impossible not to talk about him- from economic reform to setting up the meeting with O'Neill in 1965.

Parts of many politicans careers made a huge impact, for example Frank Aiken's internationalist stance and standing up to the US up to 1961 in the UN gave Ireland a greater role, but he was involved in an alleged atrocity in the north during the civil war.

Ahern, will have a strong reputation in years to come. The times of prosperity are always remembered for who was in charge at the time, not necessarily for who laid the foundations. And he benefitted much more from his personable approach than the like of FitzGerald, who appeared somewhat arrogant and aloof when with the public.

Others- probably Lynch-although he was somewhat weak early on, especially over the north. MacBride- his change from the IRA to constitutional politics and Clann na Poblachta brought in a coalition government which up until then was unseen in Irish politics but comon elsewhere in the world. Although intransigent on some issues- such as partition, he was awaded the Nobel peace prize, and gave Ireland a more Europena outlook as min for Ex affairs.

De Valera, despite all the bad points, had a some positives, which I've mentioned on the 'What Has Dev Ever Done For Us?' thread. The same could be said for Haughey in some respects- tax exemption for artists, bus passes for oap's, ban on smoking, probably the best minister for justice the country has had, the revitalisation of the Docklands/Temple bar deal. But of course he had many negatives, but at least he has a bit of personality! Not like many other 20th centuy Irish politicians.(I know I've neglected Parnell, Butt et al in the 19th.)

spanner

ateam wrote:

What are you basing this on?? The Statue of Westminster came in 1931, O'Higgins died in 1927.

Secondly, i'm not sure the word "sailed" can be used with regard to O'Higgins, he was murdered on the steps of his house in 1927.

Granted it came in after his death but he was pivotal in the Negogations of the statue of westminister.

Also Granted he only witnessed the first 5 years of the free state but in this time he set up an garda siochanna, dealt (quite vicously) with the Subversives to the state, an army Mutiny and most importantly he ensure the transistion to free state law and order

the greatest Accomplishment new states and governments that are born out of violence can do is survive. As we see in Iraqi this is not easy to do it is actually the greatest Challenge they will face.

I belive this is what kevin O'Higgins did and for that he deserves credit

Hermione*

spanner wrote:

Granted it came in after his death but he was pivotal in the Negogations of the statue of westminister.

Also Granted he only witnessed the first 5 years of the free state but in this time he set up an garda siochanna, dealt (quite vicously) with the Subversives to the state, an army Mutiny and most importantly he ensure the transistion to free state law and order

the greatest Accomplishment new states and governments that are born out of violence can do is survive. As we see in Iraqi this is not easy to do it is actually the greatest Challenge they will face.

I belive this is what kevin O'Higgins did and for that he deserves credit

You could be thinking of the 1926 Balfour Declaration. Also the achievements you mention would be shared amongst the government. The civil war and the mutiny would have been the domain of Richard Mulcahy as Minister for Defence.

Collins would get it on potential. He could have been truly brilliant, as Lee says, the only civil war casualty with the ability to change history.

Lemass for his courage to institute enormous changes in the priorities of the government. Brown for his courage in fighting the system; he may not have achieved much but at least he tried.

Also Mary Robinson, she achieved so much despite the odds at a time when women were still predominantly outside public life.

nollaig

Also Mary Robinson, she achieved so much despite the odds at a time when women were still predominantly outside public life.

What did she achieve?

ateam

Unfortunately she became the first female president of Ireland, so that's her achievement (and that's it).

funktastic

She did a lot in her career as a barrister in the liberalisation of contraception in Ireland.
She played a much more active and internationalist role in the presidency than the likes of the old fianna Fail guard who were left out to pasture in the Phoenix Park.

ateam

funktastic wrote:

She did a lot in her career as a barrister in the liberalisation of contraception in Ireland.
She played a much more active and internationalist role in the presidency than the likes of the old fianna Fail guard who were left out to pasture in the Phoenix Park.

She stuck her nose in where it wasn't wanted...Irish presidents are supposed to be above politics and represent the country abroad in a positive manner.

Hermione*

ateam wrote:

She stuck her nose in where it wasn't wanted...Irish presidents are supposed to be above politics and represent the country abroad in a positive manner.

That's not actually true, the President is supposed to ensure the constitutionality of all legislation passed by the Oireachtas, and that citizens's rights are not eroded by government legislation. Mary Robinson was also the first President to really interpret the role in terms of the country's profile abroad.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

ateam wrote:

I would say Bertie Ahern.

You are taking the piss, aren't you...? Bertie has neither the guts nor the imagination to come even close to some of the other names mentioned on this thread!

Rocker

Hermione* wrote:

You could be thinking of the 1926 Balfour Declaration. Also the achievements you mention would be shared amongst the government. The civil war and the mutiny would have been the domain of Richard Mulcahy as Minister for Defence.

Collins would get it on potential. He could have been truly brilliant, as Lee says, the only civil war casualty with the ability to change history.

Lemass for his courage to institute enormous changes in the priorities of the government. Brown for his courage in fighting the system; he may not have achieved much but at least he tried.

Also Mary Robinson, she achieved so much despite the odds at a time when women were still predominantly outside public life.

The Statue of Westminster was just the Balfour Declaration made into law. All the work was done by O'Higgins in 26. It just took the British government 4 years to make it a law. Also O'Higgins has to take all credit for the ending of the Army Mutiny. Mulcahny failed to take the action that was necessary to destroy because it was against old friends. I have a lot of respect for Mulcahny, but on this I think he failed in this. Also Cosgrave was sick at the time so it was all up to O'Higgins. If O’Higgins had hesitated who knows what would have happened.

Back to the original question. As a politician I would to stay Parnell. His handling of Gladstone's Second Land act was brilliant and he did change the whole way political parties work

The Politician who did most for Ireland: Collins would come top with O'Higgins in second place and W.T. Cosgrave in third. They were the men who built the state and that isn't an easy thing to do. In more recent times I have a lot of respect for Lemass and Liam Cosgrave.

guinnessdrinker

Maybe not a popular choice among some but I think Gerry Adams is a great politician. If only for the simple fact that there would be no peace in the north of Ireland without him. Himself and John Hulme started peace talks way back in 1988 I think it was! Hulme/Adams initiative I think it was called.

Also I know Charles Haughey is not too well liked but I also admired him in that he could make decisions like a leader should unlike Bertie, whenever he has to make a decision bumbles and mumbles and after all that you still dont know what his decisoin was.

ateam

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

You are taking the piss, aren't you...? Bertie has neither the guts nor the imagination to come even close to some of the other names mentioned on this thread!

Maybe if you take away your current political loyalties and prejudiceness, you will see that Bertie Ahern has done great things for this country such as ending unemployment and emigration, improving standards of living dramatically, increasing the number of people going to third level education, the introduction of the smoking ban etc etc. Also, Bertie Ahern was instrumental in the signing of the Good Friday Agreement in 1998 and continues to work tirelessly on Northern matters.

meditraitor

Daniel O'Connell

Hermione*

Rocker wrote:

The Statue of Westminster was just the Balfour Declaration made into law. All the work was done by O'Higgins in 26. It just took the British government 4 years to make it a law. Also O'Higgins has to take all credit for the ending of the Army Mutiny. Mulcahny failed to take the action that was necessary to destroy because it was against old friends. I have a lot of respect for Mulcahny, but on this I think he failed in this. Also Cosgrave was sick at the time so it was all up to O'Higgins. If O’Higgins had hesitated who knows what would have happened.

The Balfour Declaration granted equality between the members of the Commonwealth, the Statute of Westminster gave the dominions the right to rescind legislation passed on their behalf by the Imperial Parliament.

Given that O'Higgins once said 'If I woke up in the morning to find myself popular, I should question my actions', his commitment to democracy is slightly questionable which would surely exclude from consideration for Ireland's greatest politician. O'Higgins was very able when it came to making hard decisions, but there's a strain of authoritarianism running through his actions and speeches which is worrying.

I'd agree with you on Parnell though, he created what is recognised as the first modern political party in Britain.

As for Ahern and Haughey, they'd know very little about hard decisions. Or decisions at all, come to think of it.

ateam

I really don't understand how people could not place Bertie Ahern in at least their top 5 Irish politicians. This country has undergone immeasurable change during his priemership and credit must be given where it's due. I suspect that those who criticise Bertie Ahern and Fianna Fail are the exact same people availing of the FF initative, SSIA.

PS. If some people view Kevin O'Higgins as the best Irish politician, they really must examine their priorities.

Rocker

Hermione* wrote:

The Balfour Declaration granted equality between the members of the Commonwealth, the Statute of Westminster gave the dominions the right to rescind legislation passed on their behalf by the Imperial Parliament.

Being able to rescind legislation is part of the whole equality thing. They couldn't be equal if Westminster could pass legislation of the Dominicans.

Given that O'Higgins once said 'If I woke up in the morning to find myself popular, I should question my actions', his commitment to democracy is slightly questionable which would surely exclude from consideration for Ireland's greatest politician. O'Higgins was very able when it came to making hard decisions, but there's a strain of authoritarianism running through his actions and speeches which is worrying.

He was being ironic about the fact that he was always forced to make tough decision that weren't always popular. O'Higgins was a strong supporter of democracy and all his actions show that.

Anto McC

Benjamin Disraeli,I know he wasnt an Irish politician but he was a decent aul skin

I'd say Daniel O'Connell!!

spanner

Rocker wrote:

Being able to rescind legislation is part of the whole equality thing. They couldn't be equal if Westminster could pass legislation of the Dominicans.

He was being ironic about the fact that he was always forced to make tough decision that weren't always popular. O'Higgins was a strong supporter of democracy and all his actions show that

I totally agree with what you said in this thread. He signed the death warrant for his best man, Rory O'Connor. I would not think he is the best politican that ireland has had because he did not live long enough. But he is the type of politican that we could do with today, a politican who will make the right decisions even if they are unpopular