Most senior UVF leaders were 'British agents'

A Dub in Glasgo

Amazing story from todays Sunday Times.

THE police ombudsman of Northern Ireland has found that most of the UVF’s senior leaders were operating as security force agents in the 1990s.

The revelation has emerged as part of an investigation by Nuala O’Loan into the murder of Raymond McCord Jr in north Belfast by UVF members to cover up a drugs deal in November 1997. McCord’s father, also Raymond, claims that his son’s killers were protected because they were police informants.

The names of several UVF police agents were given to Bertie Ahern by McCord Snr last month and the taoiseach has said he will raise the issue with Tony Blair. McCord told Ahern that even the UVF brigadier general was an informant.

Despite being penetrated at the highest level by the PSNI, the UVF has refused to disarm and said last week that it intended to be the last paramilitary organisation in Northern Ireland to disband. The British government refuses to recognise its ceasefire.

O’Loan’s investigation, code-named Operation Ballast, has become “vast”, according to a source close to the inquiry. “Its implications go beyond even the report into the Omagh bombing,” he said.

The ombudsman is believed to have uncovered a systemic failure of intelligence handling and dissemination, although it is unlikely that any police officers will be charged. A preliminary report has been forwarded to the director of the Public Prosecution Service.

The former leader of the UVF in the Mount Vernon area is central to the investigation. He cannot be named because he is before the courts on unrelated charges. He was known to his handlers as agent 20/1240.

The agent 20/1240 is believed to have ordered McCord’s murder and was involved in at least 11 other killings during his time as a police agent. He was assisted by another police agent, codenamed Mechanic, and by a current UVF brigadier who is also an agent.

Mechanic is believed to have taken part in the bombing of a Sinn Fein office in Monaghan and to have, perhaps unwittingly, supplied the car used in a sectarian attack on the Heights bar in Loughinisland, near Downpatrick, in which six people were killed.

One of agent 20/1240’s police handlers has spoken about the process of recruitment and the difficulties in using a mass murderer as a police informant.

Trevor McIlwrath, a retired police officer, said: “I first recruited (20/1240) as an agent when he was about 16 or 17, and a juvenile offender, in the late 1980s.

“One night I was out patrolling and he was doing deliveries for a Chinese restaurant. He flashed me down and told me he had joined the UVF. I said, ‘Look, you are going to end up killing people’, and advised him to leave. When he said he couldn’t I told him the next best thing was to work for us. He agreed to do so.”

The agent was given detailed instructions on how to avoid getting involved in serious crimes such as murder. He was to warn the police if possible so that they could arrest him before any planned attack.

A PSNI spokesman said new intelligence systems are now in place and many informants have been dispensed with.

No surprise considering the dirty little war the British fought and at the same time denouncing the other side as terrorists.

With similar stories of British agents in the IRA, did the British suffer numerous bouts of schizophrenia when they climbed up their moral high ground?

joebhoy1916

No surprise there.

The agent was given detailed instructions on how to avoid getting involved in serious crimes such as murder. He was to warn the police if possible so that they could arrest him before any planned attack.

I wonder did they say the same to Ken Barrett? :rolleyes:

Akrasia

i wonder will this stop the whole 'Sinn fein's environmental policy has no merit because THEY'RE ALL BASTARD TERRORISTS' hysteria that inevitably accompanies any public appearance of any sinn fein representative at any event for any reason, seeing as the British are allowed to have opinions on diverse matters without their credibility being affected by their terrorist past.

gurramok

There was quite an upsurge in loyalist terrorist violence in the early 90's onwards where loyalists killed alot more than any other group.
Just think, quite a few of those victims would be alive today if their preventable murders were prevented from happening in the first place by the British authorities!

axer

many informants have been dispensed with.

hmmm, i wonder how they did that.

No surprise here. I guess the British were just trying to keep the peace - huh?! :rolleyes:

Running Bing

Wow only four responses. Where are some of the more regualr contributors to the forum I wonder?

Babybing

Babybing wrote:

Wow only four responses. Where are some of the more regualr contributors to the forum I wonder?

Your point caller?

ghostdancer

i'm presuming his point is that all the usual Sinn Féin/Republican bashers couldn't really care less about murder, they only come out of the woodwork when it suits their agenda, but that's just how i'm reading it.


anyway, it's no suprise really, there's been plenty of british agents on both sides who've murdered and bombed innocent people while working for the british government.

nice to see they pay people to murder those they can't deal with themselves, yet criticise paramilitaries when they do it...

the_syco

Meh. Quick question: how would a UVF terrorist cause everyone to hate the RIRA? Answer: tell them to goto the wrong main street.

gurramok

ghostdancer wrote:

i'm presuming his point is that all the usual Sinn Féin/Republican bashers couldn't really care less about murder, they only come out of the woodwork when it suits their agenda, but that's just how i'm reading it.


anyway, it's no suprise really, there's been plenty of british agents on both sides who've murdered and bombed innocent people while working for the british government.

nice to see they pay people to murder those they can't deal with themselves, yet criticise paramilitaries when they do it...

Exactly.
Its how i'm reading it too.
They only care about selective victims of violence whilst ignoring other victims, no-one has a monopoly on suffering.

RedPlanet

gurramok wrote:

Exactly.
Its how i'm reading it too.
They only care about selective victims of violence whilst ignoring other victims, no-one has a monopoly on suffering.

I agree 100%.

ghostdancer

ghostdancer wrote:

i'm presuming his point is that all the usual Sinn Féin/Republican bashers couldn't really care less about murder, they only come out of the woodwork when it suits their agenda, but that's just how i'm reading it.

I see and you would be totally innocent of that too you would?
The wow only 4 responses comment is more than likely a reflection of democrats being less interested in government actions over which they can maintain at least some control as opposed to what most people would regard the unelected undemocratic actions of the IRA during the troubles.
There havent been too many tribunals of inquiry into the murdering spree of the IRA for instance-thats because well they could do what they like unless they were caught.
Different story for governments-they can get the boot.It's not a declaration of right but its a definite distinction none the less.

This is all very tired anyway,Republican prisoners by and large and loyalists due to the GFA literally got away with murder and robberies and various other crimes.That was all part of the peace process.

What Galls me and I'm sure most people, is those in the republican family that think they have some God given right to continue with their racketeering etc.
They dont and as long as they do, they are harming SF.
It's as simple as that.

RedPlanet

Earthman wrote:

What Galls me and I'm sure most people, is those in the republican family that think they have some God given right to continue with their racketeering etc.
They dont and as long as they do, they are harming SF.
It's as simple as that.

What galls me is that folks think that SF have some sort of all-control over what provos do with themselves. But i find your statement that "they" (provos) are harming SF a bit of a stetch, when on the basis of the Facts, i'd say that that is pure rubbish since SF keeps growing electorally.

RedPlanet

RedPlanet wrote:

What galls me is that folks think that SF have some sort of all-control over what provos do with themselves. But i find your statement that "they" (provos) are harming SF a bit of a stetch, when on the basis of the Facts, i'd say that that is pure rubbish since SF keeps growing electorally.

I suggest you read my post in the provo criminality thread.
SF arent exactly growing at a rate of knotts , their growth is hampered by this criminality thing.
They should be growing a lot faster, they certainly have the machine to advance this within their catchment voter group.
But anyhow, discuss that in the provo thread, here it's all off topic

Sand

anyway, it's no suprise really, there's been plenty of british agents on both sides who've murdered and bombed innocent people while working for the british government.

Youve answered your own, and everyone elses, question. The British had/has intelligence assets in most/all of the terrorist organisations - Dennis Donaldson?

And its well known the justice in Northern Ireland takes a distant second place to political/security concerns - the sudden release of Sean Kelly which had nothing to do with evidence and everything to do with appeasing SFIRA? The whole prisoner release scheme in the first place?

Whats the next news flash? Titanic sinks?

Either way, the UVF are not seeking to enter my government, or subvert the institutions of my country. SFIRA are.

gurramok

Earthman wrote:

This is all very tired anyway,Republican prisoners by and large and loyalists due to the GFA literally got away with murder and robberies and various other crimes.That was all part of the peace process.

What Galls me and I'm sure most people, is those in the republican family that think they have some God given right to continue with their racketeering etc.
They dont and as long as they do, they are harming SF.
It's as simple as that.

What galls me and a few others is that victims of loyalist violence/criminality are not highlighted by those same elements who highlight republican criminality.
Where are the demands to stop loyalist criminality who have retained their arms and at a stroke can kill\intimidate at their own choosing?

Their ignorance/don't care attitude by these same elements is a bit rich considering the north is the source of the republican/loyalist/security forces conflict.

Its only fair highlighting criminality on both sides, discriminating against loyalist victims of violence by not raising their suffering as an ongoing issue is basically unfair imho.

Rock Climber

gurramok wrote:

What galls me and a few others is that victims of loyalist violence/criminality are not highlighted by those same elements who highlight republican criminality.
Where are the demands to stop loyalist criminality who have retained their arms and at a stroke can kill\intimidate at their own choosing?

I think Sand hit the nail on the head there.Loyalist criminals wont be associated with a political party here that wants government.

Their ignorance/don't care attitude by these same elements is a bit rich considering the north is the source of the republican/loyalist/security forces conflict.

It's called priorities.Loyalism is irrelvant down here for most and as for its criminal element in the North, well most people down here will be happy to let the police deal with it.
They wont and dont take the same view of republican gangsterism as its in our very own back yard.
Now if Fine Gael suddenly decided to merge with the PUP or something and loyalist criminality became evident in the south, then that would be a bigger issue and more related to the damage done to SF by their erstwhile associates.

Its only fair highlighting criminality on both sides, discriminating against loyalist victims of violence by not raising their suffering as an ongoing issue is basically unfair imho.

Raising it is ok in itself.
But it is not an issue of any real relevance to southern politics and therefore it cannot succeed as a deflection against the damage done to SF by people associating them with guys that still think crime is right.
SF might disown them, but thats not good enough.Their organisation trained them into this criminality in the first place.
It doesnt matter that they want to be separate now or that the other side of the coin wants to say the disadents are disadents.
It's all about perception.

axer

/edit

gurramok

I see where u are coming from on this Rock Climber, the politics of the south is more important than the suffering of all victims, just shows where priorities lie with sections of populace down here.
Its a very harsh situation for victims of loyalist violence to turn to considering the title of the thread ?!

Sand

I see where u are coming from on this Rock Climber, the politics of the south is more important than the suffering of all victims, just shows where priorities lie with sections of populace down here.
Its a very harsh situation for victims of loyalist violence to turn to considering the title of the thread ?!

Actually its more that Loyalists and Provos are both terrorist scum. However now the Provos are trying to tell us that they are not terrorist scum, that they are a legitimate, electable political party like anyone else. So now they are demanding that they no longer be viewed in the same light as the Loyalists. They are demanding they be seen as just as valid a party as say, the Green Party.

This presents a certain challenge to the Provos. Previously they were simply terrorist scum and treated as such. Terrorist scum acting like terrorist scum was about as remarkable as the Westies dealing drugs. Terrible, but unsurprising. If the Provos want to be treated like they are a legitimate political party, not terrorist scum like the Loyalists, then they need to start behaving like the Green Party, not the Loyalists. What-aboutery regarding the UVF just demonstrates that the Provos true level is that of terrorist scum, not a legitimate political party.

Its remarkable and surprising when a group seeking power in your country is pervaded with criminality and depraved morality like SFIRA is. Theres some basic minimum standards in liberal democracy that a citizen is entitled to expect from any and all representitives, regardless of the political persuasion of the ruling faction. Its part of the contract in democracy, that the "losing" side will accept the majoritys vote on the basis of those standards being maintained. Accepting the constitution, the law of the land and not engaging in organised crime is one of them. This is the standard that the Provos have to meet if they want to be treated like any other party. I, for one, would treat the UVF in the exact same manner in the unlikely event of them seeking to enter my nations government.

But if Provos feel its only important to be at least as legitimate and law abiding as the UVF, well, then they will be considered to be only as legitimate and law abiding as the UVF - criminal scum, wholly unsuitable to participate in democratic government.

joebhoy1916

But if Provos feel its only important to be at least as legitimate and law abiding as the UVF.[/QUOTE]


Law abiding as the UVF???????

Are you stoned :rolleyes:

axer

Sand wrote:

But if Provos feel its only important to be at least as legitimate and law abiding as the UVF, well, then they will be considered to be only as legitimate and law abiding as the UVF - criminal scum, wholly unsuitable to participate in democratic government.

What about the British Government then? I guess they are involved in criminal activities with criminal scum which I guess by most peoples standards makes them criminal scum and are unsuitable to participate in democratic government - ohh but wait - aren't they a democratic government?! :eek:
How can anyone expect the North of Ireland to be normal with a Government like the british government playing games with peoples lives and peoples heads?
Why are the British Government not being held responisible for all their dispicable actions during the troubles in the North?

Sand

But if Provos feel its only important to be at least as legitimate and law abiding as the UVF


Law abiding as the UVF???????

Are you stoned

Serious question: What meaning did you take from my post? I wrote it in plain english, so its hard for me to explain how impossible I feel it is to misinterpret that statement without causing you potential offence, which Id hate to do.

Sand

What about the British Government then? I guess they are involved in criminal activities with criminal scum which I guess by most peoples standards makes them criminal scum and are unsuitable to participate in democratic government - ohh but wait - aren't they a democratic government?!

More accurately they groomed agents in the heart of terrorist organisations in Northern Ireland, on the basis that it provided information that prevented greater loss of life. Its fine as far as it goes, but its obvious that at times the RUC and the British intelligence services placed too much importance on protecting assets, over and beyond upholding the law. I think thats wrong, and so does the British government given that the institutions of the British state investigate and punish the wrongdoing - hence this case coming to light.

How can anyone expect the North of Ireland to be normal with a Government like the british government playing games with peoples lives and peoples heads?

How can anyone expect Northern Ireland to be normal when self declared legitimate parties feel horribly wronged to be held to higher standards than terrorists like the UVF? The British government is rightfully ashamed by the wrongdoing carried out in Northern Ireland by its agents, Provos and the UVF are proud of their wrongdoing. The difference is that the British government is a legitimate political entity that accepts it has to maintain certain standards, whilst the Provos and the Loyalists are terrorist scum who cheer men who throw nail bombs into resteraunts.

Why are the British Government not being held responisible for all their dispicable actions during the troubles in the North?

They are, they are investigating and acting to punish wrong doing by their agents and institutions. Again, this is how a case like this comes to light. Unfortunately, given the moral standard set by the release of terrorist scum under the GFA its hard to argue that the GFA is compatible with holding people responsible for their despicable actions during the troubles. But then, that is a paradox for the supporters of the GFA who will sink to any low to achieve a deal on paper, no matter how unworkable in practise.

axer

axer wrote:

What about the British Government then? I guess they are involved in criminal activities with criminal scum which I guess by most peoples standards makes them criminal scum and are unsuitable to participate in democratic government - ohh but wait - aren't they a democratic government?! :eek:
How can anyone expect the North of Ireland to be normal with a Government like the british government playing games with peoples lives and peoples heads?
Why are the British Government not being held responisible for all their dispicable actions during the troubles in the North?

Ah now axer thats whataboutery at its finest.
You can do better than that.

Every government security organisation in I dare say practically every country in the free world and more especially in countries where there are paramilitary groups operating outside of a democracy has some covert involvement with organisations that they fight.
Take that whataboutery to a thread discussing, the disagreeable covert actions of democratically elected governments and we'll discuss the pro's and cons of it...

Oh whoops we're sort of in one already and are on a tangent discussing why people care less about loyalist goings on than Republican goings on.
The tangent has been answered both here and in the provo thread.
It's because their current activities are in another jurisdiction and theres no tangible association with a party looking for political office down here.
People would generally have as disfavourable an opinion of their past activities as they would of the IRA's.

Now could we stay on topic from here on in.

Oh and joebhoy1916 Read the charter...

A Dub in Glasgo

Interesting, this thread has been awoken from its slumber by some posts questioning the silence of some posters on British sponsored terrorism

1. The British government have been engaged in this type of terrorism for decades.

2. British government terrorism is apparantly not subject to the rule of law

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

2. British government terrorism is apparantly not subject to the rule of law

Yeah its a bit like the Gardaí in chase not being prosecuted for speeding.

axer

Earthman wrote:

Ah now axer thats whataboutery at its finest.
You can do better than that.

Every government security organisation in I dare say practically every country in the free world and more especially in countries where there are paramilitary groups operating outside of a democracy has some covert involvement with organisations that they fight.
Take that whataboutery to a thread discussing, the disagreeable covert actions of democratically elected governments and we'll discuss the pro's and cons of it...

Oh whoops we're sort of in one already and are on a tangent discussing why people care less about loyalist goings on than Republican goings on.
The tangent has been answered both here and in the provo thread.
It's because their current activities are in another jurisdiction and theres no tangible association with a party looking for political office down here.
People would generally have as disfavourable an opinion of their past activities as they would of the IRA's.

Now could we stay on topic from here on in.

Oh and joebhoy1916 Read the charter...

Excuse me, I do believe I am more on topic than you are. I am not the one talking about the SF when this topic is about the British having a hand in the UVF and the IRA.

So back on topic...I cannot see the British Government EVER taking proactive responsibility for their actions during their dirty little war. Will they take action against police officers involved in stopping the killers of Raymond McCord from being prosecuted? I seriously doubt it.

gurramok

Earthman wrote:

Oh whoops we're sort of in one already and are on a tangent discussing why people care less about loyalist goings on than Republican goings on.
The tangent has been answered both here and in the provo thread.
It's because their current activities are in another jurisdiction and theres no tangible association with a party looking for political office down here.
People would generally have as disfavourable an opinion of their past activities as they would of the IRA's.
.

So from reading Sand's interpretation, he's more worried about provo scum than loyalist scum as loyalist scum does not affect what happens in this jurisdiction!
That is a dishonourable view to victims of loyalist and British direct/indirect violence which has not been accounted for by rule of law.

Question is, do you care equally what loyalist scum do like you do care about what provo scum do? (i reckon a No there because of politics in South which is shameful)

Which leads to thinking aren't we all led to believe that we are living in a democratic society north and south and we should care about victims no matter what side they are on, victims before politics??

Earthman wrote:

Yeah its a bit like the Gardaí in chase not being prosecuted for speeding

Its been well documented and reported that 'lawful' forces like British army have murdered a few hundred unarmed people(all ages and gender) without hardly a single soldier brought to justice over it in the Troubles, this is hardly on an equitable standing with gardai speeding!
And thats before the 'new' news of this state sponsored UVF agent colluding in murdering innocents became known.

axer

Sand wrote:

More accurately they groomed agents in the heart of terrorist organisations in Northern Ireland, on the basis that it provided information that prevented greater loss of life. Its fine as far as it goes, but its obvious that at times the RUC and the British intelligence services placed too much importance on protecting assets, over and beyond upholding the law. I think thats wrong,

I agree, they went way too far trying to protect their assets

Sand wrote:

and so does the British government given that the institutions of the British state investigate and punish the wrongdoing - hence this case coming to light.

The case is coming to light but will the punishing of the wrong-doers ever happen?

Sand wrote:

How can anyone expect Northern Ireland to be normal when self declared legitimate parties feel horribly wronged to be held to higher standards than terrorists like the UVF? The British government is rightfully ashamed by the wrongdoing carried out in Northern Ireland by its agents, Provos and the UVF are proud of their wrongdoing. The difference is that the British government is a legitimate political entity that accepts it has to maintain certain standards, whilst the Provos and the Loyalists are terrorist scum who cheer men who throw nail bombs into resteraunts.

the british governments standards must be pretty low then if they let people be murdered in front of them without blinking an eye and whilst training other people to avoid getting caught committing murder! I wonder was there special provision in their budget for trainers teaching how to avoid getting caught murdering civilians or would that just be filed under "miscellaneous activities"?

axer

axer wrote:

Excuse me, I do believe I am more on topic than you are. I am not the one talking about the SF when this topic is about the British having a hand in the UVF and the IRA.

Cough I'll be the one to order a thread back on topic around here thanks.
Secondly when someone belittles the users of this forum,I most definitely WILL comment.The tangent that caused went on for a few posts but it was important that it be cleared up.
One thing I will not tolerate around here is the dissing of other posters en masse because they dont subscribe to an alternative view.

So back on topic...I cannot see the British Government EVER taking proactive responsibility for their actions during their dirty little war. Will they take action against police officers involved in stopping the killers of Raymond McCord from being prosecuted? I seriously doubt it.

I dont know what they will do.I do know that theres more chance of a public inquiry and answers when it comes to government violence or inspired violence than there is for paramilitary violence.

So from reading Sand's interpretation, he's more worried about provo scum than loyalist scum as loyalist scum does not affect what happens in this jurisdiction!
That is a dishonourable view to victims of loyalist and British direct/indirect violence which has not been accounted for by rule of law.

With respect, theres a lot more accountability from the actions of a governments forces than that of the likes of the IRA or loyalism.

axer wrote:

the british governments standards must be pretty low then if they let people be murdered in front of them without blinking an eye and whilst training other people to avoid getting caught committing murder! I wonder was there special provision in their budget for trainers teaching how to avoid getting caught murdering civilians or would that just be filed under "miscellaneous activities"?

Ok your point is that governments should have better standards.I agree they should.
Where I dont agree is that they should be constricted in their persuit of crime and the methods that they use.
Their methods should of course be ultimately accountable and reviewed as and when necessary.Thats something that does actually happen, though not always.It never happens with paramilitaries.

axer

Earthman wrote:

Cough I'll be the one to order a thread back on topic around here thanks.

Yes Master, Sir

Earthman wrote:

I dont know what they will do.I do know that theres more chance of a public inquiry and answers when it comes to government violence or inspired violence than there is for paramilitary violence.

With respect, theres a lot more accountability from the actions of a governments forces than that of the likes of the IRA or loyalism.Ok your point is that governments should have better standards.I agree they should.
Where I dont agree is that they should be constricted in their persuit of crime and the methods that they use.
Their methods should of course be ultimately accountable and reviewed as and when necessary.Thats something that does actually happen, though not always.It never happens with paramilitaries.

I am not saying governments should have better standards - I am saying the British Government should have better standards if what we read is their standards. How can people be expected to trust them (or the PSNI) in the north (and elsewhere) if we hear things like this coming out every so often. A government should not need to be compared to a terrorist organisation in order to look like a "better" organisation. I am not sure of the answer but has any british police officer or british army officer EVER being prosecuted by the British government for dispicable actions taken by them on behalf of the British Government since or before the troubles began?

Zebra3

Sad to see some people aren't really bothered about Loyalists being used by the British establishment to murder Irish citizens.

A Dub in Glasgo

The gist seems to be:
Some people who oppose violence do not get too hung up about state murder and terrorism because the state will investigate itself when found out and it can be held accountable by the voters whereas paramilitary murder and terrorism is evil and nobody is accountable. The latter point ignores the fact that paramilitary murder is subject to the rule of law (which, in my book, is being held accountable for your actions) whereas state murder is not.

There is very little evidence to suggest that the British state investigates or punishes those responsible for state murder and terrorism. As for the British state being accountable for their dirty little war, that is a laugh.

Cork

ghostdancer wrote:

i'm presuming his point is that all the usual Sinn Féin/Republican bashers couldn't really care less about murder, they only come out of the woodwork when it suits their agenda, but that's just how i'm reading it.

When should we expect people coming out of the woodwork about the Robert McCartney murder?

Democrats believe in up holding the laws of this country and could not care more about murder.

This tread is about senior UVF leaders being 'British agents' - I won't even mention the track record of SF/IRA with regards murders.

Sand

The gist seems to be:
Some people who oppose violence do not get too hung up about state murder and terrorism because the state will investigate itself when found out and it can be held accountable by the voters whereas paramilitary murder and terrorism is evil and nobody is accountable. The latter point ignores the fact that paramilitary murder is subject to the rule of law (which, in my book, is being held accountable for your actions) whereas state murder is not.

There is very little evidence to suggest that the British state investigates or punishes those responsible for state murder and terrorism. As for the British state being accountable for their dirty little war, that is a laugh.

The gist is that its not a shocker that the British have agents in terrorist organisations. Its hows they defeated SFIRA after all.

Given these agents were recruited *from* terrorist organisations rather than being inserted into them, its not a shocker that these agents were disreputable and less than morally wholesome to begin with. Donaldson for example was part of an organisation that held mens family hostage to force them to act as suicide bombers.

Its also well known that the British security forces running these agents often decided that the information from an agent was worth more than arresting them for committing crimes. This is the whole justification for recruiting them in the first place. Its a judgement call and its clear they made the wrong call on many occassions.

And the only reason you can post a link to that story is because of a British investigation into the activities of their agents. Hence the if youre looking for proof of British investigating their crimes, you posted it yourself. What is the purpose of a thread that tells us what we already knew, and confirms that the British are investigating it?

This thread is just a boring "whataboutery" effort. Whilst wailing about the British being held accountable, no Provo is demanding that Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness - who may hold power in any executive - be held accountable "for their dirty little war". No Provo has yet demanded that the court process be respected and all discussion on the topic be halted, "innocent until proven guilty lads!" No Provo has demanded that we "move on". No Provo has argued that 10 Downing Street has little or no control over its followers, despite speaking for them. I guess theyre holding on for the next time the Provos are caught publically doing what they do best. None of the Provo outrage here is principled. Its just standard Brits=Evil, therefore Provos=Good.

I was so tempted to just copy and paste a typical Provo post from say the McCartney murder and just change the names appropriately but Provos dont seem to get irony or shame so it would be a waste of time.

Look at this way - The Provos support the GFA. The GFA calls for no one to be held accountable for their crimes, for everyone to "move on". Hence this is why the British introduced that disgusting piece of legislation for OTRs (Which was pure comedy gold when the Provos realised that their immunity from punishment wasnt going to be presented in terms of what they were due, but instead as a dirty political trade with the British. Provos earnestly believe that they deserve early release, that they deserve not to be jailed for their crimes. This is their due. Theyre politicals after all. Any deal which doesnt recognise their wrongdoing as justified is not acceptable). Now, if you support the GFA you support not holding people accountable for their actions. So get off the high horse.

Sad to see some people aren't really bothered about Loyalists being used by the British establishment to murder Irish citizens.

British citizens I thought? The UVF hasnt murdered anyone in Ireland for quite a while. Either way, what happened was the security forces protected their agents from prosecution for serious crimes. Theres nothing in this case that suggest 10 Downing St was using the UVF to murder drug dealers in some squalid gang war.

It does bother me that the British security forces would protect criminals like that, but not so much as it bothers me to see Gerry Adams on RTE, leader of a terrorist organisation, now seeking power in my country.

How can people be expected to trust them (or the PSNI) in the north (and elsewhere) if we hear things like this coming out every so often.

Yeah, how can we trust people who publically investigate wrong doing by their institutions and agents to ensure standards are high. Tapdancing christ. :rolleyes:

axer

Sand wrote:

Yeah, how can we trust people who publically investigate wrong doing by their institutions and agents to ensure standards are high. Tapdancing christ. :rolleyes:

Investigations that never lead to prosecutions whereby nobody is held responsible. How can a government that was so against the IRA (and others) teach terrorists how to get away with serious crimes and help them to not get prosecuted?

Sand wrote:

This thread is just a boring "whataboutery" effort. Whilst wailing about the British being held accountable, no Provo is demanding that Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness - who may hold power in any executive - be held accountable "for their dirty little war". No Provo has yet demanded that the court process be respected and all discussion on the topic be halted, "innocent until proven guilty lads!" No Provo has demanded that we "move on". No Provo has argued that 10 Downing Street has little or no control over its followers, despite speaking for them. I guess theyre holding on for the next time the Provos are caught publically doing what they do best. None of the Provo outrage here is principled. Its just standard Brits=Evil, therefore Provos=Good.

Whats that you are saying? What about the provos?

A Dub in Glasgo

Sand wrote:

Snip...... whataboutery.....Snip

To me, that sums up your contibution to the thread

What about SF?
What about the IRA?
What about Denis Donaldson?
What about Provo murder?
What about Provo terrorism?
What about the terrorism of 1916?
What about McCartney?
What about Omagh?
What about calling members of boards Provos?

Flex

Sand wrote:

British citizens I thought?

No actually, Irish citizens. As Irish as you, perhaps even more so.

gurramok

Earthman wrote:

With respect, theres a lot more accountability from the actions of a governments forces than that of the likes of the IRA or loyalism..

Can you give examples of accountability for the state murdering civilians please?

Best I can think of is the Finnucane and Rosemary Nelson inquiry which are recent investigations which were initially refused by British govt, they are still ongoing and have taken many years without a single prosecution yet.

I do remember the very rare case of 2 Scottish soldiers who were convicted of murdering a Belfast teenager but let back into the Army in the 90's!!

I don't remember any soldiers/ruc being convicted of murdering the couple hundred unarmed people during the troubles yet?

Plus the collusion aspects of loyalist murders have yet to be investigated properly!

gurramok

gurramok wrote:

Can you give examples of accountability for the state murdering civilians please?

You forgot the bloody sunday tribunal.
Fat chance of getting a tribunal into IRA murders...

axer

Earthman wrote:

You forgot the bloody sunday tribunal.

The one that the Irish Government had to request (and supply a huge amount of evidence to before the British Government would even look at it again) as the British Government had done sweet fúck all to find the truth in 1972 with the Widgery report. Thanks - great example of British accountability.

Earthman wrote:

Fat chance of getting a tribunal into IRA murders...

what about the provos?...

I disagree

The Irish government also have several things to hide relating to the troubles. Files concerning the Dublin and monaghan bombings have disappeared which could have implicated the British crown forces in the whole affair.

I disagree

There are many unanswered questions about the infiltration of the Gardaí by the IRA which seems to have been swept under the carpet. I think the British were up to their neks in illegal activity ranging from conspiring to cause explosions and directing Loyalist murder squads but we have to stand back and realise that the authorities in the Republic have a slightly shady past. Personally I would like to see the whole truth emerging but we have to be realistic and understand that it won't.

axer

axer wrote:

The one that the Irish Government had to request (and supply a huge amount of evidence to before the British Government would even look at it again) as the British Government had done sweet fúck all to find the truth in 1972 with the Widgery report. Thanks - great example of British accountability.

I see so,there'd be a tribunal into IRA murders,if the Irish govt campaigned for it... dont think so.

what about the provos?...

They're held in higher regard in this thread by some apparently than elected governments which is wrong if you believe in democracy.

The same posters can keep trying the whataboutery as their only answer it seems to questions about those associated with Republicans who are now besmirching the reasonable attempts by republicans to drive some sort of wedge between themseves and the IRA.

This thread appears alongside a thread running a few days discussing the other side.I didnt come down in the last shower lads.I know whats going on here.
Try to be at least a tad subtle by maybe bringing up your angst not adjacent to a thread you dont like but perhaps on its own.

Thread closed.