Is Ireland Getting Rougher?

Zascar

I was just reading this thread about how one person prefers to associate with foreigners rather than Irish people because of the tough and ignorant attitudes he witnesses on nights out in Dublin. Whitewashman said that 'Dublin appears to be getting rougher as times go on', and I would have to agree... I think its a pretty sad fact that as times progress, instead of the population of our country becoming more educated and worldly, it seems to me that a large portion of the country just appear to want to remain touch and ignorant. I think Ireland has a serious problem of the population becoming dumber, not as bad as, but not far behind the UK. A generation that is more concerned with celebrity gossip and mobile phone ring tones than anything else. Just read the paper under their arm to get a good idea. It sickens me the level of ignorance contained in tabloid papers such as the Sun and the Star. Some celebrity infidelity taking front page over a rising political situation or industry changing business deal. Why is the media celebrating such ignorant idiots like Jade and Chantal when if we disgraced them and celebrated intelligent people instead, we might be able to turn the priorities of the ordinary person into doing something with their lives. Why is no one highlighting this and trying to promote less ignorance in our society? If the general consensus was that people should try to better themselves, become smart and more intelligent, make a success of their lives and stay out of trouble, we would probably have less social problems in our community.

I think that a lot of kids these days think being ‘tough’ and ‘hard’ is a very important part of preparation for their lives ahead. I went back to the primary school I went to 15 years ago and was amazed by the amount of little nackers in a supposedly good area. I met a few very respectable families, but their kids had amazingly rough accents - I just could not believe that the parents were not trying to do something about it. My parents came from nothing, both left school at about 15, but they worked hard and made a success of themselves. Because of my fathers lack of education he worked very hard to put his 3 kids through the best schools he could, to give us the education his parents could not afford. When I was younger I had a very wide ranging group of friends, but with some I would often get called “Posh”. I don’t have marbles in my mouth but I’m articulate and I speak well, yet when growing up people actually made fun of me for speaking properly! That is a very sad state of affairs. There are so many areas where the average accent would cut your in half. Anyone that does not speak like that “is lookin’ for a baitin”. I know may people would say, “its not their fault, they have no education” – well neither did my parents – they both came from what I would consider rough areas…

Ok so I’ve had my little rant. I know there are plenty of people waiting to scream Troll and call me a snob, but I’m just looking for a civilized discussion to get other peoples opinions.
Thanks

FuzzyWuzzyWazza

Yes I woud agree that Dublin is getting rougher.

Just on the note of proper pronunciation, my sisters BF lived in Brimingham for a bit when he was a kid, and in school he was mocked because he said '3', as three as opposed to 'free', even his teacher was in on it!!!

Fajitas!

It probably is. I can't see it getting softer.

Actually, I was out last night in Waterford, saw a guy trying to get into a club, and he was told to hold on or something, he just took a swing at the bouncer...

Possibly the most stupid thing you can do.

casanova_kid

I don't know if Ireland is getting rougher, it may seem rougher because there is a rough element that contrasts starkly with our sophisticated economy and more sophisticated way of life, while in times gone by these rough elements would have fitted in more easily with the type of country Ireland was pre celtic tiger.

Still, it's very hard to grasp or understand alot of random violent people on the streets who seem to have very little understanding of civilised society, but maybe their problems aren't been looked into properly and are the left out proportion of society.
Good thread.

Supercell

I think the difference between the "have's" and the "have not's" is widening here in recent years and this can only lead to the have not's becoming more and more frustraited, which probably leads to "tougher" behaviour in general.

Yook

I think the OP in that thread is forgetting about the likes of people who post on this board, and thats what pisses me off.

Zascar

Yook wrote:

I think the OP in that thread is forgetting about the likes of people who post on this board, and thats what pisses me off.

Really? I would think the general concensus of people who post on this board are mostly intelligent people who like to share opinions. I know there are plent of people on here who may come from rough areas but are not tracksuit wearing chavs and there is a big difference.

FuzzyWuzzyWazza

Yook wrote:

I think the OP in that thread is forgetting about the likes of people who post on this board, and thats what pisses me off.

I would have to agree, talk about yer blanket bigotry, I thought we reserved that fer the English.;)

DublinWriter

Dublin was always a rough auld city.

My father and others of his generation always used to tell me about the pitch battles between gangs in the East Wall area in the 50's and 60's.

Even in the 1930's, there used to be pitched battles between gangs out in the Baldoyle Racecourse when race meetings where on.

If anything, nowdays the violence is a lot more random and usually just a one person trying it on.

Generally, I'd say Dublin is getting better. Hard to believe I know.

Wertz

It's nothing to do with education...it's to do with simple lack of respect; for parents, teachers, peers the law, society in general.
Also you'll find that many kids will adopt the "lesser" accent and use swearwords simply to avoid being singled out in the playground or the street.

Definitely definitely gotten rougher...back when I was at school, sure okay there were fights and sh*t happening in the street, but you could be pretty sure you weren't gonna get a knife pulled on you or get hit over the head with the nearest blunt object.
Kids seem to grow up a lot faster now, a combination of our culture, TV and technology...they also seem to be well aware of what they can get away with...which seems to be basically anything. Parenting definitely has a role to play; the PC bullsh*t of placating unruly children with words rather than action has lead to where we are now IMO.
Bring earlier onset of drink, drug and substance abuse into the mix and you have the cocktail for the generation that we see today; imagine what the next lot'll be like.

BTW it's not only this country where this is happening...it's moreorless a global phenomenon in western society, we just seem to be at the cutting edge...

Zascar

FuzzyWuzzyWazza wrote:

I would have to agree, talk about yer blanket bigotry, I thought we reserved that fer the English.;)

Blanket Bigotry was certaily not my intention. Every few days there is a thead in here about scumbags, the general boards consensus hates nackers.. I wonder why there are no more people trying to clean things up?

Yook

Zascar wrote:

Really? I would think the general concensus of people who post on this board are mostly intelligent people who like to share opinions. I know there are plent of people on here who may come from rough areas but are not tracksuit wearing chavs and there is a big difference.

I think you may have misinterpreted my point.

I was saying that people on this board should be the exception to what he stated.

edit again: Im sorry if my point wasn't clear. DOLEMAN said that he dislikes irish people in general because of what happened to him, I was basically saying that there are Irish people on this board who wouldn't exactly fit the description of the people he was talking about in that thread. I think its silly and bigoted to assume all irish people are like this, i'm clearly not and i'm sure 99% of the people on this board are not either.

Sorry about that again

casanova_kid

Yook wrote:

I think you may have misinterpreted my point.

I don't understand your point either, it's not exactly clear, what are you trying to say?

Wertz

Bringing boardsters into it is diverting the topic; we're in the minority...we may all come from differing social backgrounds, areas and income levels, but we all share some intelligence and sense of society that's missing in a majority of people out there IRL.

andy1249

The OP in the this thread , same as the OP in the Thread about rough attitudes in Dublin , comes across as an inveterate Snob, and thats uglier than any of your so called " nackers ".

The fact that you would even use that term in relation to another person is just pure snobbery , and if you get attitude in response to your " Attitude" then its richly deserved.

Yook

Wertz wrote:

Bringing boardsters into it is diverting the topic; we're in the minority...we may all come from differing social backgrounds, areas and income levels, but we all share some intelligence and sense of society that's missing in a majority of people out there IRL.

The thread was entitled, "Why I dislike Irish people". Are you irish? I am and that annoys me. I think the Solitaryman666 scumbag thread is where that needed to be posted because there is a difference between scum and normal irish people.

The Odeon, Burger King and trying to stop loads of scumbag fights! Cmon now, he was asking for it.

Zascar

andy1249 wrote:

The OP in the this thread , same as the OP in the Thread about rough attitudes in Dublin , comes across as an inveterate Snob, and thats uglier than any of your so called " nackers ".

The fact that you would even use that term in relation to another person is just pure snobbery , and if you get attitude in response to your " Attitude" then its richly deserved.

I was waiting for a comment like that. I know - go start another thread - Knackers Vs Snobs - that would be great fun!

FuzzyWuzzyWazza

Zascar wrote:

Blanket Bigotry was certaily not my intention. Every few days there is a thead in here about scumbags, the general boards consensus hates nackers.. I wonder why there are no more people trying to clean things up?

Sorry Zascar, I agree with YOU, we where refering to a different OP with a different POST. Sorry if you thought those where directed at you. The one you are refering to at the start of this thread.

If you go back to post #6 you will see the term 'that' as opposed to 'this'

casanova_kid

andy1249 wrote:

The OP in the this thread , same as the OP in the Thread about rough attitudes in Dublin , comes across as an inveterate Snob, and thats uglier than any of your so called " nackers ".

The fact that you would even use that term in relation to another person is just pure snobbery , and if you get attitude in response to your " Attitude" then its richly deserved.

I don't think snobbery is uglier than being knifed in the face. I'd agree though, accents are irrelevant and the reference to them by the OP makes him come across as superficial but his main point is a good one.

Wertz

Yook wrote:

The thread was entitled, "Why I dislike Irish people". Are you irish? I am and that annoys me. I think the Solitaryman666 scumbag thread is where that needed to be posted because there is a difference between scum and normal irish people.

The Odeon, Burger King and trying to stop loads of scumbag fights! Cmon now, he was asking for it.

Born and bred. I didn't post in the Why I Hate Irish thread, because the OP comes across as someone who's talking when he should be listening and TBH deserves most of what he was complaining about...but it doesn't take away from some of the points he made...he's just aiming too high and wide with his generalisation; there's plenty of decent people out there, but you're not going to find them on the graveyard shift in the areas he seems to frequent...for the most part, decent people are avoiding those situations by going elsewhere or going the f*ck home, or simply not being out at all; sad but true...

Zascar

Ahh ok. I don't totally agree with the other thread either, he was asking for it. I'm Irish and proud of it, but I am not proud of the large percentage of the population who do not conform with the supposedly sophisticated culture Ireland promotes.

FuzzyWuzzyWazza

Zascar wrote:

Ahh ok. I don't totally agree with the other thread either, he was asking for it. I'm Irish and proud of it, but I am not proud of the large percentage of the population who do not conform with the supposedly sophisticated culture Ireland promotes.

With a statment like that you are just asking to be flamed. So I am going to get out before it starts smoking in here.

Zascar

When it comes to accents I guess i am a snob. The sound of a really rough Dublin accent just makes me cringe - I don't see any reason why anyone thinks its acceptable to speak badly.

Davei141

andy1249 wrote:

The OP in the this thread , same as the OP in the Thread about rough attitudes in Dublin , comes across as an inveterate Snob, and thats uglier than any of your so called " nackers ".

The fact that you would even use that term in relation to another person is just pure snobbery , and if you get attitude in response to your " Attitude" then its richly deserved.

What would you call them? Mates?

casanova_kid

Zascar wrote:

When it comes to accents I guess i am a snob. The sound of a really rough Dublin accent just makes me cringe - I don't see any reason why anyone things its acceptable to speak badly.

That's ridiculous frankly. there's much worse things contributing to the downfall of society that accents. I think accents add to the colour and the vibrancy of the country. If we all started speaking like we were next in line to the throne, it would make me sick.

Yook

Wertz wrote:

Born and bred. I didn't post in the Why I Hate Irish thread, because the OP comes across as someone who's talking when he should be listening and TBH deserves most of what he was complaining about...but it doesn't take away from some of the points he made...he's just aiming too high and wide with his generalisation; there's plenty of decent people out there, but you're not going to find them on the graveyard shift in the areas he seems to frequent...for the most part, decent people are avoiding those situations by going elsewhere or going the f*ck home, or simply not being out at all; sad but true...

Yea, i understand what you're getting at. Taking what he meant as being scumbags, nobody is going to do anything about that problem so you might aswell stay away from places like that because they are never going to change.

Zascar

Many people slag off country accents, they have an individuality to the sound of their voice, but at least they generally speak properly. I'm referring to rough acents coupled with a complete disregard for any use of grammer as we know it.

Yook

Zascar wrote:

When it comes to accents I guess i am a snob. The sound of a really rough Dublin accent just makes me cringe - I don't see any reason why anyone thinks its acceptable to speak badly.

Oh god. Are you for real? :eek:

casanova_kid

Zascar wrote:

Many people slag off country accents, they have an individuality to the sound of their voice, but at least they generally speak properly. I'm referring to rough acents coupled with a complete disregard for any use of grammer as we know it.

Grammar as you know it, grammar as you accept it. One of the beauties of the English language is that it can be spoken in so many ways. F**k grammer, to be honest. their speaking to each other, not writing a book.

Tha Gopher

DublinWriter wrote:

Dublin was always a rough auld city.

My father and others of his generation always used to tell me about the pitch battles between gangs in the East Wall area in the 50's and 60's.

Even in the 1930's, there used to be pitched battles between gangs out in the Baldoyle Racecourse when race meetings where on.

If anything, nowdays the violence is a lot more random and usually just a one person trying it on.

Generally, I'd say Dublin is getting better. Hard to believe I know.

Exactly. The Irish have been known for drink fuelled violence since at least the post famine immigration to the states. The Irish pretty much wrecked New York during the US Civil War in a riot caused by disproportionate amounts of Irish being conscripted to the army.

FuzzyWuzzyWazza

casanova_kid wrote:

Grammar as you know it, grammar as you accept it. One of the beauties of the English language is that it can be spoken in so many ways. F**k grammer, to be honest. their speaking to each other, not writing a book.

ROFLMAO

Good point kid

Yook

Yea, i agreee aswell. Good point casanova.

lucernarian

Bad point IMO. While I'm not advocating that we must all speak with perfect grammar or else, I believe that the main point of grammar is to help us communicate. Grammar wasn't created for no reason. I think the title of the book "Eats, Shoots and Leaves" makes this point very well.

The english language can be spoken in many ways, yes, by using vocabulary. Like saying "not good" instead of "bad".

If people are speaking to each other, they can use whatever grammar rules they want, or not want. However, a person should certainly not be criticised for using correct grammar.

casanova_kid

To_be_confirmed wrote:

Bad point IMO. While I'm not advocating that we must all speak with perfect grammar or else, I believe that the main point of grammar is to help us communicate. Grammar wasn't created for no reason. I think the title of the book "Eats, Shoots and Leaves" makes this point very well.

The english language can be spoken in many ways, yes, by using vocabulary. Like saying "not good" instead of "bad".

If people are speaking to each other, they can use whatever grammar rules they want, or not want. However, a person should certainly not be criticised for using correct grammar.

Did I criticise anybody for using correct grammar? Read my posts, sunshine, and you will find i didn't. I just disagree with the OP's snobby attitude to accents and grammar which is fairy irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

Pazaz 21

I think its mostly a lack of respect and ambition. I mean where do they see themselve in 10 years, sitting at home, watchin daytime tv, on the dole, or what? Do they expect to be shown respect when they pick fights for no other reason than they have nothing better to do?

The sad truth is that most people just stay at home for fear of getting "glassed" or getting the sh*t kicked out of them at random. Its not my fault if i'm financially better off then other people and it certainly isn't any reason to beat the crap out of me. My parents worked hard to get to the situation they are in now and i don't feel that if you've got a chip on your shoulder you have the right to make honest, decent people suffer for it.

(Rant over):D

andy1249

All this crap about grammer ,

Refer to Stephen Pinker , the language instinct ,
Noam Chomsky , huge volume of work on the subject ,

In any human language , be that slang , pidgins , or creoles , the inherent grammer is always of the same structure and always present. The above Authors would argue that it is inherent is some way to the human brain.

To say that a certain way or accent of speaking is a lesser way , or is in any way inferior is Elitism , no more , no less.

lucernarian

casanova_kid wrote:

Did I criticise anybody for using correct grammar? Read my posts, sunshine, and you will find i didn't. I just disagree with the OP's snobby attitude to accents and grammar which is fairy irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

Lol, aren't you a very defensive person??? Before you call me sunshine, you had better find the part where I accused YOU of criticising anyone.:)

lucernarian

andy1249 wrote:

All this crap about grammer ,

Refer to Stephen Pinker , the language instinct ,
Noam Chomsky , huge volume of work on the subject ,

In any human language , be that slang , pidgins , or creoles , the inherent grammer is always of the same structure and always present. The above Authors would argue that it is inherent is some way to the human brain.

To say that a certain way or accent of speaking is a lesser way , or is in any way inferior is Elitism , no more , no less.

Indeed, which is why I think that no one should be criticised for using incorrect grammar according to whatever sets the standard for the english language. Isn't there some book by Fowler or something like that which gives grammatical guidelines for english?

Nightwish

I feel Ireland is getting rougher. Its not only in Dublin, but all over the country. I see kids of 9 and 10 out on the streets at night trying to break windows on cars just for a laugh, or young girls "baitin'" other girls up and these kids wouldnt necessarily be from the rough areas of town either. Why is it seen as "cool" to act in such a manner?

Wertz

This whole grammar debate is throwing us off course...nothing wrong with using it properly and talking "posh" but IMO, if you can be understood by the person(s) you're talking with then it has absolutely no bearing on anything (this is what I have against txtspk on anything but mobile phones).

andy1249

It has plenty of bearing on the discussion when the OP is using it to " Elevate" himself over what he considers " nackers ".

Huggles

DublinWriter wrote:

Dublin was always a rough auld city.

My father and others of his generation always used to tell me about the pitch battles between gangs in the East Wall area in the 50's and 60's.

Even in the 1930's, there used to be pitched battles between gangs out in the Baldoyle Racecourse when race meetings where on.

If anything, nowdays the violence is a lot more random and usually just a one person trying it on.

Generally, I'd say Dublin is getting better. Hard to believe I know.

Though i am not condoing that at all, it was violence between gangs that had genuine problems with eachother be it turf or whatever.

Nowadays it is random acts of violence on strangers and it is usually drink and drug fuelled. Dublin is NOT getting better and that is a fact. We have a massive drug problem and with that comes a big crime problem.

Pigman II

Zascar wrote:

Many people slag off country accents, they have an individuality to the sound of their voice, but at least they generally speak properly. I'm referring to rough acents coupled with a complete disregard for any use of grammer as we know it.

Do they? I've heard enought varieties of accents from round the country to know this isn't so. People from Limerick to Donegal to Wicklow whom I literally couldn't understand what they were saying half the time. They might have well been speaking German (except I can actually understand German).

Also whilst we're at it, why to people always end up compaining about bad 'grammEr'?