[news] New Dublin Airport runway approved

Bluetonic

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2006/04/13/story253901.html

New Dublin Airport runway approved despite opposition
13/04/2006 - 07:59:23

Fingal County Council has reportedly granted permission for the construction for a new runway at Dublin Airport despite local opposition.

Reports this morning said the council had approved plans to build a 3,110-metre runway 1.6km north of and parallel to the existing main runway.

The Dublin Airport Authority is hoping to have the €150m scheme completed by 2012 and says it is necessary to allow the airport to carry up to 30 millions passengers each year.

Residents in the Portmarnock are vehemently opposed to the project as the flight path for the new runway will pass directly over their houses.

Reports this morning said they intended to lodge an objection to the planning permission with An Bord Pleanala.

dmeehan

does anyone know how high the planes would be over portmarnock on approach to the new runway?

Winters

dmeehan wrote:

does anyone know how high the planes would be over portmarnock on approach to the new runway?

No higher than they are flying now over the coast road I presume.

Do the residents of Portmarncok not know there is an existing active runway there already? Its not a new runway per say, more of a runway extension. It could have been extended years ago by Aer Rianta if they had the money then. I remember a Viscount ran off that runway and ended up in the hedge on what was the old Dublin-Swords road, stuck tail up in the air...

Also the original Main Runway at Dublin airport was north-south and the Swords Residents should be delighted it was not developed further, its an aircraft park now.

Bluetonic

Winters wrote:

Do the residents of Portmarncok not know there is an existing active runway there already?

It's only used for light aircraft at the moment isn't it?

Winters wrote:

No higher than they are flying now over the coast road I presume.

They'll be a lot lower as the runway will start at the back of the TEAM hanger, where as the exisiting one starts half way down the airfield. http://www.dublinairport.com/images/new_runway.jpg

They are extending it towards the Collinstown House/Coachmans which would mean a 737 would probably need to be at around 100 to 200 meters up at approx Portmarnock train station. This area of portmarnock is directly inline with the flight path.

peter1892

Bluetonic wrote:

They are extending it towards the Collinstown House/Coachmans which would mean a 737 would probably need to be at around 100 to 200 meters up at approx Portmarnock train station. This area of portmarnock is directly inline with the flight path.

On approach to the existing rwy 28 most aircraft would be at 1500' when passing the outer marker (well about 1500'). The proposed rwy 28R will bring approaching aircraft over the northern end of Portmarnock (about 1 mile north of the railway station). I'd imagine they'd be crossing the coast at around 1500' as well.

It's strange how none of the protestors seemed to bothered when they were building the existing runway 10/28 back in the 1980's...

**Timbuk2**

It would be great to have this new runway, paralell to the other one (runway 28 I think)

So now there will be 28L and 28R... which will be great

Bluetonic

peter1892 wrote:

The proposed rwy 28R will bring approaching aircraft over the northern end of Portmarnock (about 1 mile north of the railway station).

Are they going to do some dramatic turn at the last minute to align with the runway?

peter1892

Bluetonic wrote:

Are they going to do some dramatic turn at the last minute to align with the runway?

Straight in - parallel with the existing approach path but about mile to the north...

Bluetonic

peter1892 wrote:

Straight in - parallel with the existing approach path but about mile to the north...

Ah having looked at it further, it won't be infact a runway extenstion as Winters says, they are in fact going to realign the runway completely, so infact that alignement parallel to the existing one would bring them a mile or so to the north of the station, am with you now.

BendiBus

peter1892 wrote:

Straight in - parallel with the existing approach path but about mile to the north...

Looking at an OS map of the area, a straight in approach to 28R will be overhead Portmarnock railway station and the southern end of the town.

peter1892

You mean the proposal to extend 11/29? I think this is one that Michael O'Leary mentioned a while back as a preference over a new runway, there would have been a bit of conflict where the approach paths meet out over the sea. I don't think it was ever a serious contender though.

peter1892

BendiBus wrote:

Looking at an OS map of the area, a straight in approach to 28R will be overhead Portmarnock railway station and the southern end of the town.

No it won't. The curent 28 approach is exactly as you've described above, the new runway is further north by around 1 mile so the flights will have to make the approach that much further north.

BendiBus

I was actually following the alignmnet of the current rwy29, so yeah I was a bit off!

Bluetonic

BendiBus wrote:

I was actually following the alignmnet of the current rwy29, so yeah I was a bit off!

It can happen to the best of us

peter1892

BendiBus wrote:

I was actually following the alignmnet of the current rwy29, so yeah I was a bit off!

Shhh...don't let on that there's already a runway there, the residents round my way will freak out!

Borzoi

peter1892 wrote:

No it won't. The curent 28 approach is exactly as you've described above, the new runway is further north by around 1 mile so the flights will have to make the approach that much further north.

see the link:
http://www.dublinairport.com/about-us/airport-development/Parallel_Runway.html

**Timbuk2**

If you want to look at Dublin Airport in Google Earth then press on my attachment below and press Open with Google Earth and you will be brought straight there

Bluetonic

Borzoi wrote:

see the link:
http://www.dublinairport.com/about-us/airport-development/Parallel_Runway.html

I'm pretty sure anyone following the thread would have seen it already above lad.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=51202693&postcount=4

Bluetonic

**Timbuk2** wrote:

If you want to look at Dublin Airport in Google Earth then press on my attachment below and press Open with Google Earth and you will be brought straight there

Looking at the runway as it exists now clouds the issue as it is being totally realigned.

PhoenixRising

I would imagine that the new 28R will be the preferential runway for departures and 28L used as the preferential for landing. The new runway will be some 600m longer than the old runway and with some of the larger aircraft using Dublin at present being performance limited on Rwy 28 it would seem like logical decision. The operation would be similar to Heathrow, Charles De Gaulle and most other dual runway ops airports where one runway is used for landing and the other for departures. This setup will allow for much higher traffic volumes also than could be achieved using both runways for landings and departures.

So I don't think the residents in north Portmarnock have much to worry about as approaching aircraft will continue to use the old runway predominantly.

murphaph

PhoenixRising wrote:

I would imagine that the new 28R will be the preferential runway for departures and 28L used as the preferential for landing. The new runway will be some 600m longer than the old runway and with some of the larger aircraft using Dublin at present being performance limited on Rwy 28 it would seem like logical decision. The operation would be similar to Heathrow, Charles De Gaulle and most other dual runway ops airports where one runway is used for landing and the other for departures. This setup will allow for much higher traffic volumes also than could be achieved using both runways for landings and departures.

So I don't think the residents in north Portmarnock have much to worry about as approaching aircraft will continue to use the old runway predominantly.

Except maybe when the wind blows east-west? Aircraft need to take off into the wind (ok, I'm sure one of you plane enthusiasts will know the details) do they not?...or else they have to work the engines that bit harder to generate the required lift over the wings. A headwind effectively reduces the speed required on take off I believe. So if the wind changes you'll need to reverse the take off/landing runways and I'm not sure how easy it would be to do that. You could end up with the new runway being used for departures into the east somedays and the noise on take off is much higher than on landing as we all know. Personally I have little sympathy for most of the residents of portmarnock etc. as most of the people living there post date the airport and really can't complain that an international airport is (shock horror) expanding.

PhoenixRising

murphaph wrote:

Except maybe when the wind blows east-west? Aircraft need to take off into the wind (ok, I'm sure one of you plane enthusiasts will know the details) do they not?...or else they have to work the engines that bit harder to generate the required lift over the wings. A headwind effectively reduces the speed required on take off I believe. So if the wind changes you'll need to reverse the take off/landing runways and I'm not sure how easy it would be to do that. You could end up with the new runway being used for departures into the east somedays and the noise on take off is much higher than on landing as we all know. Personally I have little sympathy for most of the residents of portmarnock etc. as most of the people living there post date the airport and really can't complain that an international airport is (shock horror) expanding.

Yes indeed you are right, the runway in use depends on the wind direction. As the predominant wind over Ireland is south westerly you'll find that nearly all runways in this part of the world are roughly alingned east-west.

When the wind is easterly they will switch to using the other ends of the runways so they will probably designate 10L for departures and 10R for landings, so yes when the wind is easterly the residents in Portmarnock will have to put up with increased noise.

murphaph

PhoenixRising wrote:

Yes indeed you are right, the runway in use depends on the wind direction. As the predominant wind over Ireland is south westerly you'll find that nearly all runways in this part of the world are roughly alingned east-west.

When the wind is easterly they will switch to using the other ends of the runways so they will probably designate 10L for departures and 10R for landings, so yes when the wind is easterly the residents in Portmarnock will have to put up with increased noise.

Cheers, I suppose the only upside for them is that the noise won't be carried in the wind which will be blowing towards aircraft as they lift off. As I said though, you buy a house near an airport you have to expect that airport to expand. It's happened all over the world.

A Dub in Glasgo

murphaph wrote:

Personally I have little sympathy for most of the residents of portmarnock etc. as most of the people living there post date the airport and really can't complain that an international airport is (shock horror) expanding.

Surely residents have a right to comment/object/complain if an enhancement project causes a change to their environment. They pre-date the enhancement. The issue of whether their view is ultimately ignored is another matter.

peter1892

I'd imagine that ATC will alternate which runway is being used for arrivals & departures, in a similar way to how it's done at Heathrow.

Winters

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Surely residents have a right to comment/object/complain if an enhancement project causes a change to their environment. They pre-date the enhancement. The issue of whether their view is ultimately ignored is another matter.

No one is entitled to a view, only sunlight.

Visit http://www.norunway.com/ for details of Porto's opposition to the development.

murphaph

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Surely residents have a right to comment/object/complain if an enhancement project causes a change to their environment. They pre-date the enhancement. The issue of whether their view is ultimately ignored is another matter.

Using this logic they could complain if the airport just doubled the number of flights from an existing runway. The entire area is in the vicinity of an international airport in a island economy. They must have expected the airport to get busier and ultimately expand and if they didn't well it's pretty naive of 'em ad again I have no sympathy for such people.

Bluetonic

Winters wrote:

No one is entitled to a view, only sunlight.

I hope you were trying to be humourous here!

Winters

Bluetonic wrote:

I hope you were trying to be humourous here!

Eh, well no actually. My house has a view of the sea and islands at the moment. A block of apartments could go up blocking my view and I would not be able to argue against it on those grounds.

Of course there are other ways about it but from what I gather you cant object to a structure on the grounds that it blocks your view. I deal with the planning departments of local authorities through my job but not in this manner so perhaps someone with a better understanding can clarify.

I found this out when a block of apartments went up around the corner from me and that's what was said at the neighbourhood meetings - you are not entitled to a view.

Just to add, Portmarnock's expansion was driven by the airport's own expansion and like Swords and Malahide it is home to a lot of airport workers and the like.

Stimpyone

Quick question to those in the know, will this new runway be able to handle the new A380?. It would be a bit short sighted if it counld'nt imo.

PhoenixRising

Stimpyone wrote:

Quick question to those in the know, will this new runway be able to handle the new A380?. It would be a bit short sighted if it counld'nt imo.

The A380 flight test program is ongoing at the moment so detailed performance figures are not available yet as far as I know. At a guess I would say an A380 at it's max takeoff weight would be performance limited off the new runway. I base that on the fact that 747's and A330's using the existing runway are performance limited at their higher weights and the new runway is only going to be 600m longer, not much of an increase for such a large aircraft.

It's a mute point anyway as the airport infrastructure isn't there to be able to handle the A380.

Stimpyone

Cheers for the info, it's a shame really. With the new terminal and runway it is and ideal opportunity to make the entire airport A380 capable and somewhat future proof the whole enterprise.

Victor

The runway will be made capable of easy upgrade for the A380.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Surely residents have a right to comment/object/complain if an enhancement project causes a change to their environment. They pre-date the enhancement. The issue of whether their view is ultimately ignored is another matter.

Its been in the county development plan for 20-30 years.

Litcagral

Victor wrote:

The runway will be made capable of easy upgrade for the A380.Its been in the county development plan for 20-30 years.

Yes, since 1972.

PhoenixRising

Stimpyone wrote:

Cheers for the info, it's a shame really. With the new terminal and runway it is and ideal opportunity to make the entire airport A380 capable and somewhat future proof the whole enterprise.

Just did a quick bit of research there and in fact they can get it in and out of Dublin but I'm sure it would be performance limited at it's higher weights. They brought it up to Iqaluit in north Canada where the runway length is almost identical to the existing runway in Dublin (~2600m). Again lack of resources to handle the aircraft once it's on the ground is the problem.

saobh_ie

The new runway 10Left\28Right is, according to google going to be 3110 meters long and 60 meters wide. Google says an A380 can take off or land in only 2800 meters, better performace than a 747? You could get an A380 down tomorrow at Dublin but I don't think you'd be able park it anywhere .

I was listening to the director of Dublin Airport on the radio this morning talking to some dude from Portmarnock?

The DAA said that the new runway would be used primarly for departures and planes do climb out far steeper than they do when they're coming in to land so they should be quite high by the time they get to Portmarnock and with Ryanair rid of all its old junkers (the only airplane that used to bother me noise wise) it shouldn't be that bad? I've never found aircraft noise particularly bothersome but then I never lived under a flight path for an extended period.

Some of the stuff out of the Portmarnock Residents thing were a little far fetched though? It's in the national interest to build the new runway in a bog somewhere?

First, that just puts the noise problem over somebody elses head. They'll object and the runway won't get built. Second, A bog! Are they serious? They said the cost of the land was an issue but IIRC Aerrianta bought all the land they need for the new runway decades ago when they wanted to built it. Even if they hadn't.. buying a bunch of land around the airport fence (where nobody wants to live anyway) has got to be cheaper than building a runway that will sit on a bog (even if they got the bog for free). And that's before you build a passenger terminal, a shed load of carparks, a few office blocks, some motorways and other major road and rail links to support this new runway. Mad.

We need runways, terminals, motorways, metros and all that jazz in this country and we need them all ten years ago. They're damn cool, they make it easier for us to get around it gives us something to do (I'm biased, I'm in the construction industry*).

*Worse still I'm loving this prision, sewerplant, runway, port business because if it actually all does drive house prices down, I might actually be able to afford one within a reasonable distance of the city. I'm fully entrenched in Swords at the moment and have no desire to commute from Kildare to North County Dublin. But it won't...

jlang

Issues with the A380 are more related to the rest of the aircraft facilites than the runway. The routes from Dublin aren't likely to be the kind of routes that would use an A380. It's designed for long haul from between two congested airports where loadings would be extremely high and slots at a premium : think Heathrow->JFK or Hong Kong->Tokyo. An occasional charter for freight maybe would be the extent of it for us as Irish long haul passenger routes would be better served by 777 or the coming A350. Think how Aer Lingus transitioned to large Airbuses when the time came to renew the Jumbos.

As for the poor people in Portmarnock - a good half of their houses were built in the last 10 years and if they didn't hear about the airport up the road and how congested it was getting, more fool them.

saobh_ie

Go drinking in any of the towns surrounding the airport. Every second person you meet works in the airport in some capacity. Everything from pilots to people who work in the spar up there. =]

FunkyDa

Jeez!, I hope they're NOT drinking, while on duty!

murphaph

From memory (that A380 documentary on Discovery!) the aircraft is equipped with 4 of the most powerful passenger aircraft engines in the world (Rolls Royce Trent series) so presumably this makes for shorter take off requirements.

I actually think Dublin could take a lead in transatlantic hub flights from all over Europe to North America. Why not afterall?

Victor

murphaph wrote:

I actually think Dublin could take a lead in transatlantic hub flights from all over Europe to North America. Why not afterall?

(a) Aircraft can now fly Europe - North America without stopping.
(b) Thats Shannon's job.

dowlingm

11/29 is used by Aer Arann I understand. 11/29 will be extended but also realigned to avoid convergence with 10/28.

As for the 380, the major issues airport have with it are not runway but taxiways due to the overhang of the wide wingspan. A380 is due to be less stressful on a runway than a 777-300 due to more wheels. I doubt you would ever see one in DUB except for charters for the European cup or something (to take Dublin based Munster supporters )

Victor

dowlingm wrote:

11/29 is used by Aer Arann I understand. 11/29 will be extended but also realigned to avoid convergence with 10/28.

No, 11/29 will be removed completely, it only overlaps partially with the new 10/28.

Some drawings from the old website. I have the PDF brochure also if anyone wants me to e-mail it to them.

dowlingm

Victor wrote:

No, 11/29 will be removed completely, it only overlaps partially with the new 10/28.

you know, having written that prev post in haste I regretted it at leisure

Victor

Not to worry.