I may not be popular for saying this but...

pork99

There's is at least one development success story in Africa, Botswana

As far as I can make out their success is attributable to;

1) having a stable democracy with rule of law

2) commitment to a market rather than a command economy

3) not going along sheepishly with whatever the IMF or World Bank told them to do

4) I suppose the diamond mines helped as well (but they have those in places such as the Democratic Republic of Congo and Sierra Leone as well and look at what those countries are like)

We tend to be aware of the f-up (usually socialist) countries such as Zimbabwe, Ethiopia and Tanzania and regretably those countries are more typical of Africa.

WhiteWashMan

Degsy wrote:

Not a friend of a friend i'm afraid,its a relative of mine who works in the bank as i've made clear..

i'll stick it in inverted commas the next time, so you can understand that im not actually talking about a friend of a friend, but thats an unconfirmed story that may or may not have any fact in it whatsoever and therefore is unusable for anything other than a good old story telling.

Degsy wrote:

.Also,the 1000 euro may fall short of my "friend of a friend story" but did it occur to you that a pub could be bigger or smaller,there's no gold standard on how much they make per pub..

my gosh!
youre right!

therefore, youre point is completely valid....

oh hold on see above point...

Degsy wrote:

What you said to me was "so stop posting, ok yeah?"..you didnt say it to anybody else during the course of this discussion,you might also note that there were a few "observations" made about me personally which i refused to rise to yet i'm the one degrading what people have said?I'm sticking to the rules remember.

becuase you said you were sick of hearing the views in here. so stop posting in here!

i mean its like stupid people saying 'i dont like pain' and then hitting yourself in the head.

now im not saying youre stupid, but theres a certain similarity between what you do, and my analogy.
know what i mean like?


by the way, im still waiting for that proof that you havent given yet, or had you missed that?

HelterSkelter

Degsy wrote:

About a grand in euros i think that is.

Well off the three grand you reckon they make.

junkyard

Until they sort out their corrupt government they will never sort out poverty in Africa. Its one of the wealthiest countries in the world anyway so I'm sorry I really don't care what they do. Every time they educate their own they turn and become dictators, maybe it gives an insight into what some of them are really like when they get a break.

Funsterdelux

Charity begins at home, we should clean up our own mess, before we start cleaning up these old colonial countries problems, we were one of these countries too, not too long ago.

HelterSkelter

Funsterdelux wrote:

Charity begins at home, we should clean up our own mess, before we start cleaning up these old colonial countries problems, we were one of these countries too, not too long ago.

That is a cop out. We will never clean up our own mess at home cos too many people have this attitude that the people who deserve our help are lazy junkie wasters who don't deserve it.

shnaek

WhiteWashMan wrote:

and still 3 times less than your figure and yet another friend of a friend story.
i mean, if youre actually going to use that little factoid to base your arguments on, at least make it a fact instead of hearsay.

Not a friend of a friend. Just a friend. A guy I've known for 15 years who worked in a bar and was friends with the guys who worked in the jacks. They told him straight out. I doubt you will get iron cast-written on paper proof of this. My guess is that this income isn't reported for tax. Personally I don't care how much they make. Good luck to them.

edanto

junkyard wrote:

Until they sort out their corrupt government they will never sort out poverty in Africa.

True, but probably not their biggest problem at the moment.

Its one of the wealthiest countries in the world anyway so I'm sorry I really don't care what they do.

(a) It's not just one country, I'm guessing geography wasn't really your thing at school.
(b) does the fact that you're sorry show that you know selfishness is something to be ashamed of?
(c) wealthy?? You are talking out of your *cough* ass. Sure they've got a couple of diamonds here... a bit of oil there...
Actually - let me show you a few pictures since this is probably all new to you.
Here's where all the people are in the world. Fair enough, usual suspects with India sticking out.

Next, here's where all the money is. (a cartogram where the size of each country is proportional to their GDP) Can you see Africa? Still think they're rich?

Every time they educate their own they turn and become dictators, maybe it gives an insight into what some of them are really like when they get a break.

That's a generalisation and not true (actually, it's total bollox). It's a bit like saying that people obsessed with classic cars don't care about other people. You see, not true?

It's great that you give a little cash to charity, but I think that spouting the kind of bull**** that you posted above reinforces untrue stereotypes and discourages other people from helping out. You're harming the cause of those people by spreading lies about them. Just stop.

Vegeta

edanto wrote:

*old thread, fair enough, but this seems like a good place to put this link*

So, wanna know how rich you are compared to everyone else in the world?

http://www.globalrichlist.com/

That is such propaganda its not even funny.

You cannot compare my annual income to the income of a man in china, india or anywhere else for that matter. Our markets are vastly different, goods and services don't cost the same amounts in every country.

I may earn more in money but housing, clothes and food are expensive in Ireland so an indian engineer may have a nicer house and a better car than me.

DadaKopf

Vegeta wrote:

That is such propaganda its not even funny.

You cannot compare my annual income to the income of a man in china, india or anywhere else for that matter. Our markets are vastly different, goods and services don't cost the same amounts in every country.

I may earn more in money but housing, clothes and food are expensive in Ireland so an indian engineer may have a nicer house and a better car than me.

Well, actually the website *does* account for all that stuff because when you look at where they get those figures[/url], you'll see that they're measured as Gross National Income, adjusted for purchasing power parity. The UN also uses this method. This means that if someone in Africa is earning $200 a year, that really means $200 a year in America. Could anyone live on €200 a year in Ireland?

You can read more about how purchasing power parity works here if you like.

El Duce

yur dead right mate,who gives a flying ****,we didnt put em in that situation.if they didnt keep breeding like rabbits they wudnt be so bad off!!!**** em

Surrender

El Duce wrote:

yur dead right mate,who gives a flying ****,we didnt put em in that situation.if they didnt keep breeding like rabbits they wudnt be so bad off!!!**** em

HAHA you're a tight recruit but yeah this isin't our issue here how can you compare countrys that have totally different economys and standards of living

junkyard

edanto wrote:

True, but probably not their biggest problem at the moment.


(a) It's not just one country, I'm guessing geography wasn't really your thing at school.
(b) does the fact that you're sorry show that you know selfishness is something to be ashamed of?
(c) wealthy?? You are talking out of your big fat ass. Sure they've got a couple of diamonds here... a bit of oil there...
Actually - let me show you a few pictures since this is probably all new to you.
Here's where all the people are in the world. Fair enough, usual suspects with India sticking out.

Next, here's where all the money is. (a cartogram where the size of each country is proportional to their GDP) Can you see Africa? Still think they're rich?

That's a generalisation and not true (actually, it's total bollox). It's a bit like saying that people obsessed with classic cars don't care about other people. You see, not true?

It's great that you give a little cash to charity, but I think that spouting the kind of bull**** that you posted above reinforces untrue stereotypes and discourages other people from helping out. You're harming the cause of those people by spreading lies about them. Just stop.

You sound just like the type of person that is or should be working for one of these "charities". Grow up and get a job.

edanto

Is that supposed to be some kind of insult? Weak, very weak.

Are you unable to argue against the points that I made?

Dave!

I was looking for a job last night, and saw an ad to be a chugger for Amnesty International (I think), and they earn €13 an hour as a basic wage!!! I earn €8 FFS!!! :mad:

edanto

Amnesty are a totally different organisation to those that are trying to address the topic of this thread, poverty. Please don't bring this thread down the chugger road, we all hate them.

Vegeta

DadaKopf wrote:

Well, actually the website *does* account for all that stuff because when you look at where they get those figures, you'll see that they're measured as Gross National Income, adjusted for purchasing power parity.

I looked on the website and have failed to see where they are adjusted for purchasing power parity, now maybe i am dumb and just missing it.

EDIT: That website does not include purchasing power parity, all it does is calculate where you are on the income/population graph in the link you gave.

DadaKopf

Whoops, wrong link! I've corrected it.

If you look in the document's abstract, you'll find:

It is the first paper to calculate world distribution for individuals based entirely on household survey data from 91 countries, and adjusted for differences in purchasing power parity between the countries.

The website uses Milanovic's figures to compare incomes. Milanovic is an expert on measuring poverty and inequality in the World Bank.

Vegeta

DadaKopf wrote:

Whoops, wrong link! I've corrected it.

If you look in the document's abstract, you'll find:



The website uses Milanovic's figures to compare incomes. Milanovic is an expert on measuring poverty and inequality in the World Bank.

Thanks for the link, I haven't the time to read it here at work but is it not a little out of date?

DadaKopf

It takes years to compile these measures. They're the best the world has at the moment.

Vegeta

DadaKopf wrote:

It takes years to compile these measures. They're the best the world has at the moment.

Oh i can appreciate the fact that it akes years but if he did it in 1988 and 1993, were they two projects working at the same time and started 5 years apart. Or were they seperate projects run one after the other.

Even so its 2006 surely we need a new one. I have seen a map on wikipedia of PPP (purchase power parity) for 2005.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Gdp_nominal_and_ppp_2005_world_map.PNG

DadaKopf

The major difference is that it's a measure of 'household income' - a more accurate measure of income and poverty, because it's the amount of money that has to go around each family. Very different to the raw measure of GNP per capita, i.e. the amount of money generated in a country divided by the population, which can be very misleading. Household income is a better measure, but takes much longer to get information on.

I assume this is the reason the website prefers Household Income PPP rather than GNP per capita (PPP).

Vegeta

DadaKopf wrote:

The major difference is that it's a measure of 'household income' - a more accurate measure of income and poverty, because it's the amount of money that has to go around each family. Very different to the raw measure of GNP per capita, i.e. the amount of money generated in a country divided by the population, which can be very misleading. Household income is a better measure, but takes much longer to get information on.

I assume this is the reason the website prefers Household Income PPP rather than GNP per capita (PPP).

Understood.

Again though if it takes such a long time to gather the data it is probably out of date by the time they publish their findings. Imagine if they took Irelands figures in 1994 and took them again now. The difference is shocking

EDIT: Its nice to have a discussion without being called a racist/idiot/homophobic for once and to actually learn something

DadaKopf

Again though if it takes such a long time to gather the data it is probably out of date by the time they publish their findings. Imagine if they took Irelands figures in 1994 and took them again now. The difference is shocking

True enough. I think the website should explain why they use the figures they do, because people will inevitably ask the same questions you are, and they'd be right to ask them. It's not altogether helpful to use statistics from 1993 (unless they account for inflation or something) when you're comparing with people's incomes today. But the reality is, politicians use figures like these to make policy, so we can't not consider them if they're the best available at the time.

The point still remains though: most people in the world = really poor.

gbh

Poverty today in the third world is a modern day holocaust in my opinion. And it can be stopped/prevented. On the one hand people in the West argue that our leaders don't lead us on this issue. On the other hand, people admit they don't care enough about it. Well by not caring, you are actually being complicit just as those 'good and loyal Germans' were complicit when they turned a blind eye to the behaviour of the NAzis. I see people who don't care about the problems of the third world in a similar light.

Vegeta

gbh wrote:

Poverty today in the third world is a modern day holocaust in my opinion. And it can be stopped/prevented. On the one hand people in the West argue that our leaders don't lead us on this issue. On the other hand, people admit they don't care enough about it. Well by not caring, you are actually being complicit just as those 'good and loyal Germans' were complicit when they turned a blind eye to the behaviour of the NAzis. I see people who don't care about the problems of the third world in a similar light.

The german people as a whole didn't know about the concentration(sp?) camps. Obviously people who lived near them knew but the vast majority were kept in hte dark and ill informed about them

Terry

welcome to boards.ie. express any slightly controversial view and you are labelled a Nazi. it's like a fu(king mel brooks movie.

Vegeta

DadaKopf wrote:

The point still remains though: most people in the world = really poor.

Agreed.

I personally think its down to education on a wide variety of topics such as health(HIV), family planning, agriculture, literacy.

I know the governments of these countries don't have the money to support all these programs. Especially when a lot of them have to deal with uprising and rebellion. I know charities are doing there best.

I think the charities have the right attitude but they are only repairing woodworm on a ship that is on fire. Inevitably it is going down

That's my own opinion

gbh

gbh wrote:

Poverty today in the third world is a modern day holocaust in my opinion. And it can be stopped/prevented. On the one hand people in the West argue that our leaders don't lead us on this issue. On the other hand, people admit they don't care enough about it. Well by not caring, you are actually being complicit just as those 'good and loyal Germans' were complicit when they turned a blind eye to the behaviour of the NAzis. I see people who don't care about the problems of the third world in a similar light.

You're entitled to your opinion, but for me that doesn't cut it. Aid (monetary and foodstuffs) has been pushed into Africa for decades with little or no success. The African people have done this to themselves through warfare (religious, tribal or territorial), destruction of infrastructure & farming that was left by the boers/british, and general lack of interest in developing themselves.

Instead of providing them with food, provide them with the knowledge and equipment to help themselves. Let them know that we won't bail them out (which they should know by now), but will provide a helping hand (again through various aid organisations that are out there providing education & training). But then the cynic in me figures that a decade later they'll decide to have another war/genocide and destroy everything they've built up.

You might see me as a nazi for not having any sympathy. Whatever floats your boat. Personally I believe the people that want to bail the African people out, are doing more harm than good. But the reality of it is that the African people with a some exemptions have a nasty habit of destroying any chance of success they might have had or could have.

DadaKopf

The African people have done this to themselves through warfare (religious, tribal or territorial), destruction of infrastructure & farming that was left by the boers/british, and general lack of interest in developing themselves

Done to themselves? You mean when Apartheid-era South Africa funded paramilitaries to destabilise Mozambique in order to ensure a cheap workforce? Or like when the CIA assasinated Congo's president in the 1960s to make sure Western firms could continue operating there with ease because they could buy off the dictator they installed? Or like the way the IMF and World Bank have reduced African governments' abilities to decide their own development policies? Or the WTO that steamrolls over the needs and desires of the majority of the world's population in favour of the ultra-rich minority?