Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Is it a case of weak Welfare Officer......Weak President

  • 11-04-2006 5:36pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,437 ✭✭✭


    After learning today about the recent row between Jane Horgan Jones (Education Officer SU) and Dan Hayden (Welfare Officer, Incoming President of SU) over the displaying of abortion related material. i think that the Students union is going to be in a spot of trouble next year because it seems as if the incoming president is not willing to be impartial in his current role as welfare officer and represent both sides of the camp, pro and anti abortion. he is essentially hiding behind a 13 yr old obselete law, which he agreed was "stupid" but is doing nothing about. the paper today quotes him as saying that the union could potentially loose the bar and all the union shops and welfare services by dealing with the issue........does this sound completly ridiculous or what, does he actually think that is going to happen.
    i am not fully aware of the in's and out's of exactly what went on but from what i know i agree with Jane Horgan Jones and i feel that it is someone with a strong personality and a willingness to stand up to authorities that is needed to lead the union, not someone who is going to sit u down and make u tea while quivering in their boots


«13

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 687 ✭✭✭scop


    I generally dont like to get involved with these things these days but what irks me about Dan is not his politics or Janes or anybodys, I couldnt give two hoots but he seems like a classic politician willing to mumber anything to avoid doing anything.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 337 ✭✭HappyCrackHead


    I think ya'll have hit the nail on the head about Dan.

    If the university tries to screw us over in some regard next year (as they often do try to do, fees etc.) don't expect much help from Dan.

    Then again, you get what you vote for. So people will only have themselves to blame.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,270 ✭✭✭singingstranger


    tintinr35 wrote:
    the paper today quotes him as saying that the union could potentially loose the bar and all the union shops and welfare services by dealing with the issue
    Where?!??! :confused:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,437 ✭✭✭tintinr35


    Where?!??! :confused:

    page two of the observer


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭mad lad


    thats just what ucd needs scaremongering and a climate of hysteria about possibly breaking a law that no-ones been successfully prosecuited for breaking.....he must read the Sunday Independent


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭pretty*monster


    If only peole had twiged this before the election, eh?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,246 ✭✭✭✭Riamfada



    Then again, you get what you vote for. So people will only have themselves to blame.


    Isnt there always the option of a vote of no confidence if he dosnt seem to be doing his job . Like what happened to Jimmy C this year?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭mad lad


    that would have to be passed by council.....which could hardly be described as a democratic organ


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,246 ✭✭✭✭Riamfada


    well how about the rallying of students against the SU. Kind of an October revolution if say, a third party was to organise mass pressure on the SU and College.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,437 ✭✭✭tintinr35


    Grimes wrote:
    Isnt there always the option of a vote of no confidence if he dosnt seem to be doing his job . Like what happened to Jimmy C this year?


    i think even if he did somthing........i dunno i cant think now.......but somthing really retarded it would be very unlikey that he would be ousted


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭mad lad


    well hypothetically lets say.....he refused to carry out a union mandate and actively prevented others from doing so?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,270 ✭✭✭singingstranger


    UCDSU Constitution, Article 11, Section 9:
    (i) A Sabbatical Officer may be removed by a referendum held in accordance with Article 6(3) & (4) of this Constitution. Such shall be the only means, other than resignation, by which a Sabbatical Officer may be removed from office.

    (ii) Where such a proposal is approved it shall take effect upon the declaration of the Chief Returning Officer.
    Article 6(3) & (4) are the standard referendum procedures, including
    UCDSU Constitution, Article 6, Section 3:
    (ii) Such Referendums shall be called by the Returning Officers on petition in writing of not less than 3.5% members of the Union at the time of submission or on the direction of the Union Council.

    (iii) Such Referendums shall be held not more than three weeks and not less than two weeks, from the date of their being called.

    (iv) Any Referendum under this Section shall be deemed to have been passed if the majority of the votes cast at such referendum shall have been cast in favour of the proposal and not less than 15% of the members of the Union shall have voted at such referendum.
    So if Pierce can collect the 800-odd signatures needed off his own bat without any student awareness of anything bad, it's not beyond some students with initiative to call an impeachment referendum if you really think it necessary.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,437 ✭✭✭tintinr35


    ah poor dan....he is not even in the job yet and here we are organising a coup d'etait already!!!

    seriously tho tea and sympathy will not cut it with the ucd authorities they fúck us about way too much!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭pretty*monster


    I'm litterally going to die laughing.
    I could have told you all this months ago.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,246 ✭✭✭✭Riamfada


    I dont wana sound like a complete greenhorn here but did Caroll help that much with modularisation/end the rip off ect ect


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭mad lad


    maybe if we ignore him he'll go away


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,246 ✭✭✭✭Riamfada


    mad lad wrote:
    maybe if we ignore him he'll go away


    Well the SU only have power because people recognise the power. If needs be ignore it. But you need the mass, anyway this is all just supposing Hayden is a bad prez


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,151 ✭✭✭beanyb


    tintinr35 wrote:
    he is essentially hiding behind a 13 yr old obselete law, which he agreed was "stupid" but is doing nothing about.

    The guy is SU welfare officer not a TD what the hell do you expect him to do about laws of the state? You often here people saying that nobody in college cares about the union, why do you think the government would?

    You may think a law is obsolete, but that doesnt change the fact that it is still a law.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭pretty*monster


    Grimes wrote:
    I dont wana sound like a complete greenhorn here but did Caroll help that much with modularisation/end the rip off ect ect

    Nope, no help at all, bar showing up on the actual day of the modularisation protest.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭pretty*monster


    Grimes wrote:
    Well the SU only have power because people recognise the power. If needs be ignore it. But you need the mass, anyway this is all just supposing Hayden is a bad prez

    Um... can we perhaps not assosiate the union entirely with the president, it's not his little toy town (aside, to keep things this way, not no if that bogey constitution comes up again this year).
    Whatever kind of presiden Dan becomes there will be strong and active class reps trying to do right by the students of this college.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,246 ✭✭✭✭Riamfada


    Um... can we perhaps not assosiate the union entirely with the president, it's not his little toy town (aside, to keep things this way, not no if that bogey constitution comes up again this year).
    Whatever kind of presiden Dan becomes there will be strong and active class reps trying to do right by the students of this college.


    apologies, i know there are alot of hardworking people involved in the system . But im sure if anyone isnt doing a good enough job by simply boycotting the position would force a change.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭pretty*monster


    Grimes wrote:
    apologies, i know there are alot of hardworking people involved in the system . But im sure if anyone isnt doing a good enough job by simply boycotting the position would force a change.

    Perhaps.. but at what cost, I mean what do you mean boycot... I don't thinnk any boycot of the union services (shops, bars, copy centre) would be workable, or indeed desirable...

    I boycot of representation, i.e. not recognising the president's decisions, would only be workable if one refused to recognise the legitimacy of all union reps (i.e. your class rep no longer speaks for you on anything from a staff/student committee meeting to acedemic council) creates a power vacume... lord knows how that would end up, but it would likely set back UCD democracy and do more harm to student representation in general than the union president specifically.

    By his nature I don't expect Dan to do anything obviously awful enough to warrent remioval by refurendum, or even cencure at council... though if he did the option's always open.

    Tragically all we can do is work damn hard to see someone excellent elected next year.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,270 ✭✭✭singingstranger


    Tragically all we can do is work damn hard to see someone excellent elected next year.
    or... call me mental, but how about just working WITH him and trying to get him to work your way, rather than just giving up on the Presidency for a year? Seems like a more constructive idea...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭pretty*monster


    Well sure, if you want to be constructive *sigh*


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,270 ✭✭✭singingstranger


    Well sure, if you want to be constructive *sigh*
    How did you put it? I think it was "Oh, God forbid!"... ;)


  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 7,486 ✭✭✭Red Alert


    Can someone tell me in 5 lines how they could end up losing shops and bar?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,270 ✭✭✭singingstranger


    To quote the Hayden, if we went to the European Courts again like in the SPUC case, it could cost millions and bankrupt the Union.

    I have no idea what a case would cost but I know that the Union has an annual income of about €1m and outgoings not too far short of it, so millions really would be a perillous amount for the Union to risk.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭pretty*monster


    It's oh so likely to happen.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,885 ✭✭✭Stabshauptmann


    I dont know, suppose if there was a successful prosecution and fine so big the union couldnt pay it, they'd have to file chapter 11?

    [edit]damn slow irish broaband connection, worse than dial up. What singingstranger said[/edit]


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,270 ✭✭✭singingstranger


    I dont know, suppose if there was a successful prosecution and fine so big the union couldnt pay it, they'd have to file chapter 11?
    Well, Chapter 11 being the equivalent in the US but yeah, that's about it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 44 gliondar


    I gotta say, its not just president i worry about...

    I'm so puzzled as to how really WEAK candidates managed to get elected in many races. All the candidates are amicable people but they just seem to have so little vision and ability..... with no charisma or little leadership qualities, as if people "got them" elected rather than they got elected if you know what i mean.
    I followed the Trinity elections too and it seems that many of the candiddates I thought were the best lost and from friends who've known the victorious candidates there for years tell me its a incredible what happened.

    Could somebody sum up for me in a few lines what happened in those elections?

    tbh, i don't really worry about the state of the union, but what's really worry me is whether this is a microcosm of the elections on a national level and whether the people who are in power and everybody seems to love are actually the biggest wasters in the country........ but lovely people:p

    I've always thought democracy would surely elect the best but having seen first hand the recent elections I look at politics in a completely different light. i might even start reading up on it and finding out policies to really see which party is the best:eek:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 687 ✭✭✭scop


    We live in weak societies where we elect weak people, meakish people with no beliefs just like ourselves. Well we might have beliefs but god knows what they are, I doubt he has any real idea either except maybe some general I know democracy is good, if I dont offend anyone I should be OK.

    Etc. Etc. Welcome to the modern world. Please choose weekly system of values depending on present company.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 801 ✭✭✭Vainglory


    beanyb wrote:
    The guy is SU welfare officer not a TD what the hell do you expect him to do about laws of the state? You often here people saying that nobody in college cares about the union, why do you think the government would?

    You may think a law is obsolete, but that doesnt change the fact that it is still a law.

    Have you ever a) Downloaded music b) Burned a CD c) Drunk alcohol underage ?

    Oppressive laws regarding the legality of contraception were changed in this country by ordinary women who challenged the law. They weren't TD's either.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 801 ✭✭✭Vainglory


    Also..

    Since people in Ireland have been prosecuted for music file sharing this year, and nobody has EVER been successfully prosecuted under the 1995 abortion Act, it is fair to say that it is more likely for the Union to be prosecuted for illegal file sharing on Union computers than to be prosecuted for the notice on my door. Scaremongering about losing the shops, the bars etc, is quite simply that. SCAREMONGERING.

    Should we organise a purge of all illegal music on Union computers (of which there is a lot) in the name of consistency? Condemn our members who download music? Answers on a postcard :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,894 ✭✭✭Chinafoot


    Vainglory wrote:
    Have you ever a) Downloaded music b) Burned a CD c) Drunk alcohol underage ?

    Oppressive laws regarding the legality of contraception were changed in this country by ordinary women who challenged the law. They weren't TD's either.

    Amen to that.

    If I go to my welfare officer with an unplanned pregnancy (and before anyone starts with their "but why would you go there?" crap...thats what he's there for!) I would expect all of the options to be presented to me.

    The law will never change if we continue to bow down to it because "it's still a law". It's an idiotic, outdated law that needs to change.

    UCD set the trend with the coke ban so why not do the same here?


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 801 ✭✭✭Vainglory


    Just to clarify..

    While I agree with the points made above, Dan does say that he has information on the clinics in his office for people who ask for it. My problem with this is that it would be incredibly difficult for someone who was either uncomfortable with asking the Welfare Officer in person or indeed for someone who knew him personally to do that. For example, if I needed the information from the Welfare Office, I would not feel comfortable going to Dan and asking for it as we know each other very well, and he knows my boyfriend.

    This is why I want the information to appear in the Freshers' Guide. If I receive an undertaking that it will appear there next year, then I will remove the posters.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,894 ✭✭✭Chinafoot


    Vainglory wrote:
    Just to clarify..

    While I agree with the points made above, Dan does say that he has information on the clinics in his office for people who ask for it.

    This is why I want the information to appear in the Freshers' Guide. If I receive an undertaking that it will appear there next year, then I will remove the posters.

    There should be all three to be honest. He should have them in his office, they should be in the freshers guide and they should be visible in the Union corridoor.

    *edit* while we're on the subject. Has anyone else noticed the removal of the stickers in the girls toilets which give information on the Marie Stopes clinic? Just curious if this is being removed by staff or students. Some of the graffiti would suggest the latter.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,551 ✭✭✭panda100


    Abortion clinic are buissness-Just like any working practising surgeons. What the fcku do you think Dan is a doctor referrening patients on to surgeons? No one but a fully qualified trained doctor has the right to refer a patient on to a surgeon.You are doing a very naieve and immature thing by posting those addresses on to your door Jane.

    Im saying this as a medical student who for every 1000 cases theres one case that doesnt go quite right.This isnt to add to hysteria around getting surgery.But only doctors now the good surgeons and whats right for the patients.How exactly does a 2nd arts education officer from Ireland have the right to refer patients to good surgeons in a foreign country......Its taking a huge risk and I just think its a dangerous thing to do when its a young girls health at risk.

    I appreciate your point Jane on knowing Dan personally.But off the 10,000 students in UCD id say about a hundred would know Dan well if even.This is when he refers you to a kind,considerate nurse in the IFPA,who deals with women and the good surgeons in England every day.Are you really going to stop women from getting the best advice possible from the IFPA just to make it 'easier' for you or one of dans friends to get the addresses of abortion clinics?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,551 ✭✭✭panda100


    I'm litterally going to die laughing.
    I could have told you all this months ago.

    tbh I dont think thats a very good attitude to have,especially form somone who ran for a sabbat position.I wouldnt be laughing if someone I didnt want to get elecetd got elected.I would be quite concerned and doing my best to make sure people got involved in the union next year instead of trying to make a joke out of Dan.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,894 ✭✭✭Chinafoot


    Hang on a second. Why would Dan stop referring students to the IFPA? That's still an option, I'm sure. Just because contact information is there doesn't mean that its the only option the Welfare Officer is providing.

    People have the right to make up their own minds and I think its also slightly insulting for you to assume that girls would go into this lightly. If they go to the Welfare Officer he would obviously provide them with contact information for counsellors, organisations etc to help them with their decision and its repercussions. This doesn't mean he shouldn't provide them with contact information for abortion clinics.

    Personally I think it is more responsible for the Welfare Officer to provide the information coupled with information of organisations to help with the emotional and psychological aspect than if some girl who felt she had nowhere to go just looked up an abortion clinic on the net in desperation.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 801 ✭✭✭Vainglory


    panda100 wrote:
    Abortion clinic are buissness-Just like any working practising surgeons. What the fcku do you think Dan is a doctor referrening patients on to surgeons? No one but a fully qualified trained doctor has the right to refer a patient on to a surgeon.You are doing a very naieve and immature thing by posting those addresses on to your door Jane.

    Dan has a list of local GPs in his office. Have any of these been vetted independently by the SU to make sure they're all above board? No, but they operate under Irish law, so we have to assume they're alright. And so he can give these names/numbers/addresses out to people.

    How is this any different to giving the name and address of a crisis pregnancy agency in Britain, which is operating under British law and verified that way? Just as those GPs are operating under Irish law, that is the only way we have verified legitimacy in either case. And so that is what we do. Rest assured, I haven't given out the addresses and numbers of any backstreet clinics.
    panda100 wrote:
    Its taking a huge risk and I just think its a dangerous thing to do when its a young girls health at risk..

    I find your constant references to "girls" and "young girls" quite amusing, I have to say. Women of all ages and all walks of life avail of abortions for a variety of reasons. Your constant depiction of them as snivelling, scared young girls who are unable to make up their own minds about whether or not to have an abortion is rather facetious.
    panda100 wrote:
    I appreciate your point Jane on knowing Dan personally.But off the 10,000 students in UCD id say about a hundred would know Dan well if even.This is when he refers you to a kind,considerate nurse in the IFPA,who deals with women and the good surgeons in England every day.Are you really going to stop women from getting the best advice possible from the IFPA just to make it 'easier' for you or one of dans friends to get the addresses of abortion clinics?

    Like peachy said, I'm not stopping Dan giving out information about the IFPA. I think they do great work. In fact, the IFPA have been helping me out a lot with regard to legal questions this week. All I want is for Dan also to make available, both verbally and in Union publications, all information regarding options available in crisis pregnancies, including abortion.

    Why is it so hard to comprehend that some women do not want or need a "kind, considerate nurse". Some women do not want or need advice from a third party. Women are intelligent beings and some, if not all, are able to make up their own minds about this stuff. As such, information about these clinics should be available. Why should women be compelled to go through a third party regarding such a sensitive issue, as you seem to think they should be? God forbid they might make up their minds on their own!!

    I'm not saying that every woman doesn't want "advice" from a "kind, considerate nurse". I'm just saying that SOME definitely wouldn't, and have confidence in their own maturity and ability to make decisions about their own body without having their hands held through it. One of them is behind this keyboard.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 801 ✭✭✭Vainglory


    To further clarify (sorry, I keep forgetting things)..

    In SPUC vs Grogan, it was never clarified whether or not SU guides were unsolicited information (and then illegal under the 1995 act, or solicited information, which would make them legal under the 1995 act).

    Reference -“Abortion and the Law” James Kingston, Ivana Bacik 1997 p196-197 - says that the issue of whether SU guides came under the act was never resolved by the Supreme Court in SPUC vs. Grogan

    Therefore, the argument about whether it would in fact be illegal to put this information in the Freshers' Guide at least is only argument between people with different legal opinions, and not based in fact.

    The only way to find out if it was legal or not would be if a test case against UCDSU was taken for publishing the information in the Freshers' Guide. Only then could the courts make a judgement and only then would we know for certain.

    However, another thing is that I CANNOT BE 'SUED' or dealt with by anyone other than the State regarding this issue. This is pure criminal law, and can only be dealt with by the Gardai, etc etc. Youth Defence cannot sue me, or UCDSU. Neither can SPUC. Only the DPP can authorise a prosecution (i.e. pro-lifers can't bring it directly, which they used to do before the referendum/act came in.)

    The likelihood, I think we'll all agree, of the DPP bringing a case against students for giving out abortion information which would create such uproar, political fallout and disastrous consequences for the state if they lost, is slim to none.

    Although I almost wish they would, so we can challenge this unfair law properly.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,255 ✭✭✭anonymous_joe


    Martyrdom's not cheap. A test case would be obscenely expensive. Would probably bankrupt a Student Union, let alone a private individual.

    Would be vaguely pro-choice myself (seen as that involves providing an option, rather than endorsing mass baby-genocide as pro-lifers seem to assume) but I would be very wary of treading the fine line of legality/criminality...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,270 ✭✭✭singingstranger


    Martyrdom's not cheap. A test case would be obscenely expensive. Would probably bankrupt a Student Union, let alone a private individual.

    Would be vaguely pro-choice myself (seen as that involves providing an option, rather than endorsing mass baby-genocide as pro-lifers seem to assume) but I would be very wary of treading the fine line of legality/criminality...
    Hence Dan saying that we'd be risking the shops by going to court over it...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,551 ✭✭✭panda100


    Hang on a second. Why would Dan stop referring students to the IFPA? That's still an option, I'm sure. Just because contact information is there doesn't mean that its the only option the Welfare Officer is providing.

    People have the right to make up their own minds and I think its also slightly insulting for you to assume that girls would go into this lightly. If they go to the Welfare Officer he would obviously provide them with contact information for counsellors, organisations etc to help them with their decision and its repercussions. This doesn't mean he shouldn't provide them with contact information for abortion clinics.

    Personally I think it is more responsible for the Welfare Officer to provide the information coupled with information of organisations to help with the emotional and psychological aspect than if some girl who felt she had nowhere to go just looked up an abortion clinic on the net in desperation.

    I never suggested girls/women/females/sheilas/whatever you want to call us would go into an abortion lightly.Au contraire I dont think anyone would go into surgery lightly.
    Having gp numbers and addresses stocked is grossly different to a surgeons addresses.As you know these days everything is run for profit. If I was getting an intravenous medical procedure done which involved going inside my body I would want to get the best most qualified surgeon there is.

    I respect that you think it is responsible for the welfare officer to provide this information.I have outlined numerous time why it is irresponsible.We are not all the same independent, confident able people that would be able to deal with a crisis pregnancy in a treally mature way.The system in UCD really does protect those very very small minority who will do something they may regret in a crisis pregnancy situation.I appreciate that for most independent and capable women on camous they can get addresses off Dan and deal with it maturely with absolutley no repercussions.
    However,we have to remember that everyone in this college is different.The majority of my class are from abroad,be that malaysia,india,Africa or Alabama.Maybe thet havent been given the same sex education or are scared to tell anyone about their pregnancy and think even if they go to the ifpa that there parents will find out.If I was in college in India I would be frightened in a crisis pregnancy cos I dont know the law over there and i sure as hell wouldnt want my parents findng out I had an abortion.
    So what do the small minority who arent able to handle a crisis pregnancy by themselves do? They open the freshers guide get an address of an abortion clinic and go through it all alone,because they dont know any better.This is where a middle person like Dan is needed so desperatly. No showing abortion addresses so publicly is protecting those small minority.

    I appreciate if people disagree with me here.This is just the concerned,practical and caring medical student in me coming out here:)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,270 ✭✭✭singingstranger


    panda100 wrote:
    This is just the concerned,practical and caring medical student in me coming out here:)
    /me imagines waking up from a coma to see Dr Panda at the foot of my bed...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,578 ✭✭✭Scraggs


    Singingstranger I dont think this is the place to air your fantasies


    *runs


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 801 ✭✭✭Vainglory


    Martyrdom's not cheap. A test case would be obscenely expensive. Would probably bankrupt a Student Union, let alone a private individual.

    Would be vaguely pro-choice myself (seen as that involves providing an option, rather than endorsing mass baby-genocide as pro-lifers seem to assume) but I would be very wary of treading the fine line of legality/criminality...

    Well, obviously the Students' Union wouldn't take a test case against itself. The DPP would have to decide to prosecute for a test case to happen at all. And, as has been shown by their complete inaction when faced with pro-choice campaigners handing out such information outside the Dáil and the Department of Justice week in, week out, to members of an Garda Siochána...They don't want to go near the issue with a barge pole. Because if they DID, and we won, they'd have to change the legislation, which would open up a whole new can of worms.

    Elisa....sigh...I'm not saying that Dan should ONLY provide these addresses. Just that he should INCLUDE it in the information. IFPA, fine. CURA, fine. Marie Stopes, fine. Clinics, fine.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,270 ✭✭✭singingstranger


    Look, maybe I'm only skimming at this stage but I reckon this just boils down to a fundamental difference of opinion at this stage: whether you think it's not too impersonal to merely have contact details available on a door, or whether you think they should be only delivered on a one-to-one basis by the Welfare Officer.

    Personally, while I know that women are intelligent creatures that are well able to make up their own minds, you can't help but acknowledge that a crisis pregnancy is probably one of the hardest and most traumatic experiences any girl will ever have to face.

    You have to ask yourself whether you're okay with letting such a girl - and let's for the sake of the example say that she's comfortable with going to visit the Welfare Officer - go into the Union corridor on the way to the Welfare Office, see details for abortion clinics on a door, take down a phone number, turn around and phone up the clinic herself without giving the Welfare Officer the opportunity to calmly talk her through her four options. Personally if the stuff was on Dan's door I think it'd be a very unwelcoming sight that would give the impression of "nah, I don't care if you're pregnant, here are some phone numbers to make you not pregnant". And that's not to mention how deeply offensive that would be to the substantive segment of the student body who are pro-life and who would be deeply shocked and offended by seeing such details displayed so publically and impersonally.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,598 ✭✭✭ferdi


    how about letting him have a go at being president before y'all go shooting yeer mouths off:rolleyes:

    Ms Horgan-Jones is on the same 'team' as Mr Hayden - Maybe she should have gone for the welfare position in the SU elections instead of acting the maggot now. concentrate on your own jobs folks.


  • Advertisement
Advertisement