Denis Donaldson shot dead

mike65

Anyone suprised?

It was only as matter of time, I bet Mr G Adams is now really pissed off.

Its just been said he might have killed himself (which would be nice and neat for the Provos) so the spin is already starting.

Mike.

Freelancer

mike65 wrote:

Anyone suprised?

It was only as matter of time, I bet Mr G Adams is now really pissed off.

Mike.

Thats irony right?

Waits expectantly for the stock SF/IRA justification no4
"You can't go round making lurid gestures at the telly in a bar, I mean, abandoned famine cottage, and not expect consequences"

Johnny_the_fox

adams was speaking on the bbc.

he give out about the media - releasing the story before Denis Donaldson Family was informed...

Sand

I have to admit, Im a little surprised. No doubt many in SFIRA will be delighted to see Donaldson dead, but I had thought Adams would have impressed on them the importance of not murdering him.That said its possible he did indeed shoot himself, once hed served his PR role back in December he would have found a lot of doors closed in his face and a lot of threats and intimidation arriving in his post box. He would have been under immense pressure.

If he was murdered, its possibly a sign that Adams authority in SFIRA is being weakened as the demands to end criminality and the whole Slab Murphy affair rumbles on. SFIRA has profitted greatly from organised crime, they may be losing faith when they see Murphy getting done for his activities. Or Adams and Co could simply be extremely confident that they can murder people and get away with it. They got away with McCartney, and they got away with Eamonn McCann who was murdered for writing the book "Killing Rage" and giving testimony against one Thomas "Slab" Murphy in the libel trial he lost. Theyll probably get away with this as well if it is them. SFIRA voters have no problem with murder, Bertie positively drools over Adams, and British policy is quite clearly uninterested in what happens in Northern Ireland so long as bombs arent going off in London.

mike65

The Sunday World 'outed' his location, the gardai were investigating a break in when they found the body.

Mike.

Johnny_the_fox

Sand wrote:

If he was murdered...

its possible the he could have been murdered by Secret Service... he could have talked about the deals between himself and the Secret Service, sometime in the future.

just from that newspaper report..

"The plan was to collapse the institutions to save Trimble – David Trimble was trying to out- DUP the DUP and in the end the DUP swallowed him up.

its not all 'lets help the SF/IRA' and cover up stories - up north...

ghostdancer

there's not a hope that PIRA murdered him, especially in the current climate.

don't bother giving me the "northern bank/robert mccartney" spiel either. the ira didn't kill robert mc cartney, and there's still zero credible proof that the ira was involved in the bank robbery.


dissident Republicans against GFA/Loyalist paramilitaries against GFA is who i'd have my money on.

both have secondary reasons for it also, on the republican side, the obvious fact that he was a spy, on the loyalist, the fact that he was a senior figure in the IRA for many years and oversaw some brutal killings.
around Ardara/Glenties has a considerable Real IRA presence also, although anyone who read the sunday world last week could easily have tracked him down...
of course, Special Branch deliberatly brought down Stormont before with their "spy ring" claims which were bogus, they could easily have him murdered, it wouldn't be the first time they've been involved in murders. one less former-informant is always a plus for MI5.

anonymous_joe

ghostdancer wrote:

there's not a hope that PIRA murdered him, especially in the current climate.

don't bother giving me the "northern bank/robert mccartney" spiel either. the ira didn't kill robert mc cartney, and there's still zero credible proof that the ira was involved in the bank robbery.


dissident Republicans against GFA/Loyalist paramilitaries against GFA is who i'd have my money on.

both have secondary reasons for it also, on the republican side, the obvious fact that he was a spy, on the loyalist, the fact that he was a senior figure in the IRA for many years and oversaw some brutal killings.
around Ardara/Glenties has a considerable Real IRA presence also, although anyone who read the sunday world last week could easily have tracked him down...
of course, Special Branch deliberatly brought down Stormont before with their "spy ring" claims which were bogus, they could easily have him murdered, it wouldn't be the first time they've been involved in murders.

Pity the murderers were IRA members whose crimes were concealed by their 'comrades.'

As regards the murder, it would be a very stupid act of the IRA to kill Donaldson. Not going to judge until more information comes out.

flogen

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4877516.stm

Former senior Sinn Fein member Denis Donaldson has been found shot dead in the Irish Republic.

Mr Donaldson is believed to have been living in County Donegal since December when he admitted he had been a paid British agent for 20 years.

He was Sinn Fein's administration chief at Stormont before his 2002 arrest over alleged spying led to its collapse. Charges were dropped last year.

His body was found near the village of Glenties at about 1700 BST.

More from RTE:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0404/donaldsond.html

This is certain to create an interesting dynamic to the upcoming publication by the Irish and British governments; Ian Paisley is looking at Sinn Fein over the whole thing, for his part Adams has uncategorically condemned it and the IRA have denied involvement.

A splinter group, perhaps?

flogen

Apologies, Mike65's thread didn't show up when I clicked on politics, must have needed refreshing or something!

Mods please free to merge/delete

cranoo

mike65 wrote:

Anyone suprised?



Its just been said he might have killed himself (which would be nice and neat for the Provos) so the spin is already starting.

Mike.

dont thing so, Paisley just said on sky news his hand was cut off :eek:

ghostdancer

ghostdancer wrote:

dissident Republicans against GFA/Loyalist paramilitaries against GFA is who i'd have my money on.

But shur any Republican can be a dissident Republican now if and when it suits the purpose...
You dont have to allign yourself to any grouping, you just nudge nudge wink wink and if you are up to anything outside the remit of the New IRA , well its handy cover.

marco murphy

dont thing so, Paisley just said on sky news his hand was cut off

And said several other TV programmes have told him so.

ghostdancer

anonymous_joe wrote:

Pity the murderers were IRA members whose crimes were concealed by their 'comrades.'

quite. the IRA still didn't kill him though.

flogen

Ahern has called it a brutal murder, and Hain has said it was a barbaric act... suicide just flew out the window there.

ghostdancer

Earthman wrote:

But shur any Republican can be a dissident Republican now if and when it suits the purpose...
You dont have to allign yourself to any grouping, you just nudge nudge wink wink and if you are up to anything outside the remit of the New IRA , well its handy cover.

no, not really actually.

if what you were saying were true then they could just as easily be loyalists. :rolleyes:

flogen

ghostdancer wrote:

quite. the IRA still didn't kill him though.

No one can prove either way at this stage.

It could be someone from the IRA acting on a personal vendetta, perhaps they wanted revenge after being sold out by someone they considered a friend?

All I know is, we all know nothing.

ghostdancer

flogen wrote:

No one can prove either way at this stage.

It could be someone from the IRA acting on a personal vendetta, perhaps they wanted revenge after being sold out by someone they considered a friend?

All I know is, we all know nothing.

sorry, i was talking about Robert McCartney with that comment.

i agree with you on the personal vendetta thing. that could well have been the case. although i'd still have my money on dissidents on either side opposed to GFA tbh.

ghostdancer

ghostdancer wrote:

no, not really actually.

if what you were saying were true then they could just as easily be loyalists. :rolleyes:

No
Loyalists would surely have loved Donaldson-after all he was secretly on the side of the Brits.

Terribly inconvenient to be reminded that any Republican can be a dissident now as and when it suits,I know but conveniently possible none the less.

flogen

ghostdancer wrote:

no, not really actually.

if what you were saying were true then they could just as easily be loyalists. :rolleyes:

Buh?
Why would loyalists bother killing an ex-British spy who contributed to make a mockery of the IRA??

Earthman is right regards being a dissident republican, don't the IRA claim it was dissidents within their group who killed McCartney; of course that's another thread altogether.

Sand

don't bother giving me the "northern bank/robert mccartney" spiel either. the ira didn't kill robert mc cartney, and there's still zero credible proof that the ira was involved in the bank robbery.

Well like I said SFIRA can and have got away with murder.

But shur any Republican can be a dissident Republican now if and when it suits the purpose...
You dont have to allign yourself to any grouping, you just nudge nudge wink wink and if you are up to anything outside the remit of the New IRA , well its handy cover.

Its politically appealing alright. SFIRA can "whataboutery" with the best of them, and if it is pinned to a republican they are "dissidents" or "renegades". Theyre ably assisted in this by the British and Irish governments who desperately dont want to accept any republicans other than "dissidents" or "renegades" are committing crimes. Because if they ever had to had to accept SFIRA were dirty, theyd be forced to do something about it. Its the same reason U.N. reports on Darfur as loathe to include the term genocide, as that would force action.

SFIRA know it as well. They can do what they like, and so long as theyre not caught in the actual act itself, with photographs, video, eyewitnesses, and a signed statement by the Pope they can claim it was dissidents and everyone will accept it because everyone wants it to be dissidents.

I think that even if the Gardai find evidence Donaldson was murdered by SFIRA they will be pressured into concealing it. The argument "do you want to be responsible for bringing down the peace proccess, whats one life against thousands?" is a strong argument for those willing to look the other way.

ghostdancer

because he was involved with the IRA for many years, oversaw the murder of many Loyalists and civilian Protestants, and also the fact that SF are making huge strides in the PP at the moment.

that's plenty of reason for them to have him killed.

it certainly halts the progression of the GFA if there's whispers that PIRA might have been involved. which are completely ludicrous, seeing as SF have absolutley nothing to gain by killing him now.

finnpark

ghostdancer wrote:

it certainly halts the progression of the GFA if there's whispers that PIRA might have been involved. which are completely ludicrous, seeing as SF have absolutley nothing to gain by killing him now.

I agree. The whole thing is very sad. No-one has the right to take someone else's life.

Its wrong of others to use this man's death to gain political ground as is happening on this forum and already by political parties. Lets wait for the facts to be established first.

flogen

ghostdancer wrote:

it certainly halts the progression of the GFA if there's whispers that PIRA might have been involved. which are completely ludicrous, seeing as SF have absolutley nothing to gain by killing him now.

I agree that SF/IRA had nothing to gain from killing Donaldson, but I would have said the same about their armed struggle over the last few years, including the killings of Jean McConville, the NI Bank Robbery etc.

ghostdancer

finnpark wrote:

I agree. The whole thing is very sad. No-one has the right to take someone else's life.

Its wrong of others to use this man's death to gain political ground as is happening on this forum and already by political parties. Lets wait for the facts to be established first.

i agree completely.

ghostdancer

flogen wrote:

I agree that SF/IRA had nothing to gain from killing Donaldson, but I would have said the same about their armed struggle over the last few years, including the killings of Jean McConville, the NI Bank Robbery etc.

well jean mcconville was killed very many years ago in completely different climate, and there's still no link between theIRA and the northern bank. 4 people have been arrested for the NB robbery, one of them, a women today, none of them appear to have any involvement with the IRA, and one of them works at the bank itself.

anyway, i'm not going to bother speculating further on those matters as they're well discussed in other threads.

mike65

Is the severed hand meant to be symbolic? ie the hand that took 'the Queens Shilling'

Mike.

Johnny_the_fox

mike65 wrote:

Is the severed hand meant to be symbolic? ie the hand that took 'the Queens Shilling'

Mike.

it could have (religous) meaning :

Left hand -> on satan's side of god. :eek: (also there is a story about Job? who lives in good wealth, before satan tortures him - thats what google throws up)

Right hand -> good side of god.

muffler

Would he still be alive if that Sunday Rag had not disclosed his location.

I think this sad incident has cast as a cloud over the extent to which newspapers should go in order to sell their stories.

Dave!

muffler wrote:

Would he still be alive if that Sunday Rag had not disclosed his location.

I think this sad incident has cast as a cloud over the extent to which newspapers should go in order to sell their stories.

Exactly, that's what p*ssed me off most about this... They have blood on their hands if they were the first to disclose his location. F*cking ridiculous, I can't stand these types of papers.

And whoever said SF have nothing to gain from this, they're right.

murphaph

His hand was severed by the shotgun blast as he put his hand up to his face to defend himself. That's what McDowell said earlier on Sky news anyway.

I'm pretty pzzled by it right now. It's not somehting Adams & Co. would have wanted but as has been said, where does the line lay between official SFIRA and the dissidents-it's all very blurred if you ask me.

I highly doubt it was M15 or Loyalists tbh. A republican of some flavour was far more likely IMO.

MrSinn

I would not put it past some british organisation being behind this,there is a lot of people on both sides of the political divide that dont want peace,northern ireland was always a good (real time) training groung for the likes of the SAS

mike65

It'll be a damn quiet funeral....

Mike.

MrSinn

muffler wrote:

Would he still be alive if that Sunday Rag had not disclosed his location.

I think this sad incident has cast as a cloud over the extent to which newspapers should go in order to sell their stories.

The IRA was in it's time the most successful terrorist groups in the world,even the british prime minister was'nt safe from them
They escaped out of britans top security prison(s)
They broke into and out of prisons
They WALKED into the most secure building in northern ireland and WALKED out with what they needed
And more recently they stole 1 of the largest cash robberys in british history

I dont think they need a sunday glossy to give them any information

macfran

:mad:

muffler wrote:

Would he still be alive if that Sunday Rag had not disclosed his location.

I think this sad incident has cast as a cloud over the extent to which newspapers should go in order to sell their stories.

I agree with you and when I read that article I wondered what was the purpose of it . If a person is in hiding from police for committing a murder or drug dealing or something I could understand a newspaper disclosing where he was hiding.

Also I was livid to see RTE interviewing Ian Paisley on the news about the murder of this man. Why do they continue to give this dictator air space to stand on his soap box.

muffler

MrSinn wrote:

The IRA was in it's time the most successful terrorist groups in the world,even the british prime minister was'nt safe from them
They escaped out of britans top security prison(s)
They broke into and out of prisons
They WALKED into the most secure building in northern ireland and WALKED out with what they needed
And more recently they stole 1 of the largest cash robberys in british history

I dont think they need a sunday glossy to give them any information

And all of the above is based on your opinion that the IRA murdered him.

I would have thought that it was the same IRA that placed him here in Donegal in the first place

MrSinn

I bet whoever did this are not too worried about the garda catching them,looks like they better get the FBI again,banana peelers.

MrSinn

muffler wrote:

And all of the above is based on your opinion that the IRA murdered him.

I would have thought that it was the same IRA that placed him here in Donegal in the first place

And the same IRA that would have known he was a rat before we did

pogoń

Sand wrote:

They got away with McCartney, and they got away with Eamonn McCann who was murdered for writing the book "Killing Rage" and giving testimony against one Thomas "Slab" Murphy in the libel trial he lost..

Eamonn Collins.

I believe McCann is a well-known Londonderry socialist and environmental campaigner.

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/61942

Julesie

Hmmm.. its a strange one alright. I dont really know what to make of it.

On the one hand it seems that the republican movement gain nothing from this death and therefore it is more likely the work of a loyalist group intent on disrupting the peace movement.
But on the other hand, we all know that some of the blood thirsty thugs that masquerade under the republican banner would have pulled the trigger before ever stopping to think of the political fallout of their actions. I honestly dont believe that this is a "hit" that would have been ordered by the top ranks in Sinn Fein but i wouldnt rule out the possibility that some local nutcases in the Glenties area took it upon themselves to exact revenge on someone they saw as a traitor.

smashey

pogo&#324 wrote:

Eamonn Collins.

I believe McCann is a well-known Londonderrysocialist and environmental campaigner.

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/61942

Are you trying to wind people up?

MrSinn

I dont think i have much sympathy for him anyway,how many irishmen and women dies of his actions down the 25 years that he was a double agent
He did what any dog does when it knows its going to die,he went somewhere quiet.

muffler

Julesie wrote:

but i wouldnt rule out the possibility that some local nutcases in the Glenties area took it upon themselves to exact revenge on someone they saw as a traitor.

I dont think that the good people of Glenties will thank you for that

Kinda stupid staying in the country

pogoń

smashey wrote:

Are you trying to wind people up?

By using the name Londonderry ?

No.

If you choose to call the same place 'Derry' are you trying to wind me up ?

mike65

Lads leave the playground stuff outside eh? Each to his own.

Mike.

ghostdancer

another thing worthy noting, if PIRA wanted him dead, they could easily have had him murdered before he went in mainstream media saying he was a spy. he had admitted it to the SF hierarchy in belfast several days before that. there's no logical reason for PIRA to wait until now to have him murdered even if they did want to kill him.
they have absoultely nothing to gain from murdering him a couple of weeks before Stormont is recalled, and a hell of a lot to lose.

the Real/Contos are welcoming his murder from what i've read on other boards, saying that no, hopefully the GFA will be doomed forever.
it is certainly of alot of benefit to the dissident Republicans, and alot of benefit to those within Unionism, aswell as sectors of the British government, opposed to SF going into power sharing.


just read that his wife was living in the house with him and is apparently missing at this time. anyone got a link to somewhere offical on that? haven't actually seen any of the bulletins mention this, so presumably it's just hearsay...

The Corinthian

Anything’s possible, but some are more probable than others. From my reading of the situation these are the options:

Unrelated Crime. Possible. Perhaps Donaldson was shagging his best friend’s wife and he found out or it was a burglary that went horribly wrong. And perhaps air will spontaneously transmute into gold...

British / Irish Government Assassination. The only way this is even vaguely possible is if Donaldson was in possession of information that would be embarrassing to either and / or both governments. This is so highly improbable to the point that anyone who took such a theory seriously is most likely an IRA apologist and/or an idiot.

Loyalist Plot. Again possible, in that they would - on the surface - have to gain from a failure of the peace process. I say on the surface, as this is what their rhetoric would indicate, and loyalist (like republican) rhetoric is often more about posturing than actual intent.

So, again I think it unlikely for the above reservation (although that’s certainly open to debate) as well as the fact that loyalist paramilitary groups are not really capable of something of that level of Machiavellian sophistication. They’re simply not that clever.

Possible but unlikely.

PIRA / Rogue Republicans. Most likely cause. While it is certainly not in the interests of SF (and the PIRA), it is no secret that few in those ranks would shed any tears for Donaldson’s demise. This is not to say that it was carried out by members of the PIRA (there are numerous republican groups that would also have been happy to see him dead) or even that the termination was sanctioned by the PIRA.

It is also possible that senior members of the PIRA ordered his termination as he may have still known undisclosed information that may have been still deemed dangerous either to the organisation or individuals within it, but this is improbable.

However, many of the foot soldiers in republican (and loyalist) paramilitary groups are not the brightest pennies in the purse and have been brought up in an atmosphere of simplistic vigilantism. As such the most likely culprits were some republican boyos who took it upon themselves to ‘dispense justice’, not fully appreciating, or for that matter understanding, the negative (to their own organisation) political ramifications that such an act would likely invoke.

So don’t be surprised if we find a few twenty-something year-old lads in a landfill in a few months time.

mike65 wrote:

Lads leave the playground stuff outside eh? Each to his own.

If that were possible there wouldn't be a Northern Irish question.

mike65

Doh, silly me!

Mike.

flogen

The Corinthian wrote:

Loyalist Plot. Again possible, in that they would - on the surface - have to gain from a failure of the peace process. I say on the surface, as this is what their rhetoric would indicate, and loyalist (like republican) rhetoric is often more about posturing than actual intent

I think this is even more unlikely than you give credit for; the only reason they would bother killing him is to unhinge the Peace Process, possibly in the hope that PIRA would get blamed for it and Sinn Fein would be sent packing by Paisley and co.

However, if Stormont doesn't get back on track it has been made more than clear to everyone involved that Downing Street and... eh Drumcondra Road... will take joint-authority over Northern Ireland... no loyalist would knowingly invite Dublin into direct control of the North.

civdef

The front page of Daily Ireland this morning said suicide hasn't been ruled out. Are they aiming to outdo the much lamented Portadown News?