Penalty points: zero tolerance, zero action

Heinrich

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1591687&issue_id=13870

All talk and no action. And Gay could make some comment.

We have a government minister dooring a cyclist who ends up in hospital with multiple leg fractures on the eve of the great damp squib penalty points launch which merits just a few well hidden lines in the papers.

They can make as many laws as the want but it will be futile if the laws are not enforced. The lads and lassies in Leinster house are tired!

Archeron

Wellejy wellejy wellejy. Just as I suspected. For most of the weekend, and all of yesterday, all the motorists were behaving themselves. No speeding, no dodgy overtaking. wow, i thought, a result. Unfortunately, the garda blitz that was promised didnt seem to materialize, at least not in counties Meath, Dublin or Kildare. Did anyone see a traffic cop enforcing the new points at all anywhere in the country yesterday? Did anyone see a copper? Anywhere?

Just to re-inforce this, this morning everybody was back to full speeding and overtaking. Last time it took three weeks to realize its all talk, no action, seems like this time it only took a day. Congratultions minister, you create enough hot air to single handedly end the worlds energy crisis and still have enough left over to run the worlds biggest balloon contest.
Maybe its a little too soon to be judgemental, but I really really expected a blitz yesterday, with coppers on every corner.

Heinrich

Even Gaybo was silent. Has he already retired from the mess?

What is disquieting is the high profile persons involved in the recent accidents! There were a few lines written for the one caused by a government minister who should be leading by example. Then there was the rugby chap who ploughed into the car killing the unfortunate teenager.

These items seem to be well and truly yesterday's news, leaving room for further scandals.

We seem to have road safety and the health service in a total shambles and the respective ministers and their boss waffle on.

What is going to happen next on might ask?

We must be the most gullible nation on the planet...

Litcagral

Heinrich wrote:

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1591687&issue_id=13870

All talk and no action. And Gay could make some comment.

We have a government minister dooring a cyclist who ends up in hospital with multiple leg fractures on the eve of the great damp squib penalty points launch which merits just a few well hidden lines in the papers.

They can make as many laws as the want but it will be futile if the laws are not enforced. The lads and lassies in Leinster house are tired!

It could be argued that the cyclist is partly to blame: ROTR - "when passing parked vehicles beware of doors that may open suddenly".

parsi

One of my colleagues was done for driving on the hard-shoulder this morning (as well as three or four in front of him)...

Heinrich

Litcagral wrote:

It could be argued that the cyclist is partly to blame: ROTR - "when passing parked vehicles beware of doors that may open suddenly".

That is a warning, opening the door is criminal!

cargrouch

parsi wrote:

One of my colleagues was done for driving on the hard-shoulder this morning (as well as three or four in front of him)...

Wasn't on the stretch between the Bandon roundabout and the Sarsfields Road roundabout was it? Saw plenty people flying low up along the hard shoulder all right, I was surprised they'd chance it.

The thing is, they had no chance of pleading their case with the garda because there was a crash at the back of the queue as someone tried to force themselves back into the flow. A perfect example of what happens when some genius passes out stationary traffic at 80kph and then realises he's about to meet a queue of traffic in the hard shoulder too.

Dilly1

Zero Tolerance my arse, The scheme will not cut down on road deaths because there are never any Garda on the country roads where people are killed every weekend. I got stopped on the dual carriageway that bypasses Mullingar, that same weekend a woman was killed on the Ballymahon road which I was also on, and not one Garda in sight anywhere on the Ballymahon road which is very narrow, but everyone floors it and breaks the speed limit when they get onto it because they know the Garda wont be there, they know the Garda will be standing around on the much safer dual carriageway scratching their holes.

parsi

Yep just before the Wilton Roundabout alright.

TheMonster

Was in a 25X bus yesterday evening going up the slip road past the foxhunter and the bus driver(and everyone else) was afraid to enter the hatched lines on the left hand side thus rendering what used to be 2 lanes back into 1 lane. There was a Garda Traffic jeep ahead of us when all of a sudden some lunatic behind the bus also turning left at the top mounted the footpath(1/2 the car) and drove around the bus.

The cops had spotted him and jumped from the jeep and stopped him, gave him a stern lecturing to and then let him go without booking him. WTF, to me mounting the footpath in such a way is extremley dangerous driving. Would love to ask the cop why they didn't book him for it.

Heinrich

parsi wrote:

One of my colleagues was done for driving on the hard-shoulder this morning (as well as three or four in front of him)...

Nailing people driving on the hard shoulder is good for revenue but will not cut down on road carnage!

Speeding, drunk driving, crashing red lights etc. would be the areas to concentrate on. Serious mobile patroling in rural areas would be a start.

MorningStar

Heinrich wrote:

Nailing people driving on the hard shoulder is good for revenue but will not cut down on road carnage!

Speeding, drunk driving, crashing red lights etc. would be the areas to concentrate on. Serious mobile patroling in rural areas would be a start.

People who don't obey the rules will not obey the rules elsewhere. In New York when they started stopping people skip train fares they caught people wanted for other crimes, sentences and questioning. That is how it works.
So yes it will reduce the carnage as it will remove the people likely to commit other offenses. Catch somebody speeding where they think it is safe they will also speed where they are familiar and think it is safe. Basic human phsycology.

Heinrich

MorningStar wrote:

People who don't obey the rules will not obey the rules elsewhere. In New York when they started stopping people skip train fares they caught people wanted for other crimes, sentences and questioning. That is how it works.
So yes it will reduce the carnage as it will remove the people likely to commit other offenses. Catch somebody speeding where they think it is safe they will also speed where they are familiar and think it is safe. Basic human phsycology.

Whilst not condoning driving on the hard shoulder I would venture that motorists doing this are not of the same breed as the arrogant speedsters but rather are frustrated at driving 11K in 90 minutes on our gridlocked urban traffic system.

I suppose the guards could be stopping guys pi$$ing against garden walls in the hope that they are drug barons or armed raiders.

The problems should be tackled at source. Mobile patrols, speed checks and the more frequent visits to the pub car park near closing time would make for better prevention!

We are paying for tribunals yet do not have any cash to purchase extra squad cars, motorcycles and water canons. Either we have real law and order or the semblanceof a well balanced budget because both will never be an optio.

cargrouch

Heinrich wrote:

Serious mobile patroling in rural areas would be a start.

Spot on! For drink driving I reckon they need a dedicated "flying squad" in every county. A team of guards with 4-5 patrol cars that will descend on a random village/town and block ALL roads outside the village, or sit outside pubs carparks at closing time.

MorningStar

Heinrich wrote:

Whilst not condoning driving on the hard shoulder I would venture that motorists doing this are not of the same breed as the arrogant speedsters but rather are frustrated at driving 11K in 90 minutes on our gridlocked urban traffic system.

So these people only break rules when they are annoyed! That makes it fine then obviously the reason fro breaking the rules makes all the differnece. People park in a cycle lane everyday to bring their kids into school and this puts my life in danger. Does it matter that they are doing it becasue the parking is a 5 minute walk? No they still put my life on the line for their convenience. Not a big offense and no harm in many drivers' eyes

There are a ton of studies proving those who feel they know better or have a reason to break rules they will do so everywhere all the time. You probably won't beleive me but it doesn't matter the rules are the rules. The rules have reason and if you feel you can get away with it you will keep doing it. Detection will always prevent more crime than the punishment that is another proven well known fact that most memebers of the public won't accept either.

Heinrich

MorningStar wrote:

So these people only break rules when they are annoyed! That makes it fine then obviously the reason fro breaking the rules makes all the differnece. People park in a cycle lane everyday to bring their kids into school and this puts my life in danger. Does it matter that they are doing it becasue the parking is a 5 minute walk? No they still put my life on the line for their convenience. Not a big offense and no harm in many drivers' eyes

There are a ton of studies proving those who feel they know better or have a reason to break rules they will do so everywhere all the time. You probably won't beleive me but it doesn't matter the rules are the rules. The rules have reason and if you feel you can get away with it you will keep doing it. Detection will always prevent more crime than the punishment that is another proven well known fact that most memebers of the public won't accept either.

Prevention rather than detection is needed! As for the cycle lane misery, I do have the utmost sympathy for the cyclists. Unfortunately the majority of cyclists misbehave on the roads. No lights, faulty brakes, non respect of traffic lights, cycling on the footpaths and so on does not enamour them to the motoring fraternity.

I agree with you regarding rules are rules, however some rules are downright silly and should not be confused with the more serious ones. Speeding and drunken driving are far more serious offences that parking on the cycle lane. In fact the majority of cycle lanes are a joke and with this in mind greater prudence will keep you safe.

Idleater

MorningStar wrote:

People who don't obey the rules will not obey the rules elsewhere. In New York when they started stopping people skip train fares they caught people wanted for other crimes, sentences and questioning. That is how it works.
So yes it will reduce the carnage as it will remove the people likely to commit other offenses. Catch somebody speeding where they think it is safe they will also speed where they are familiar and think it is safe. Basic human phsycology.

I agree with this.

Heard the "explanation" on Morning Ireland this morning, basically saying that they did not want to do a blitz and then nothing, thus reinforcing the opinion that they do nothing anyway. Instead they do nothing as they normally do and if they do decide at some point to "do" somebody for eg breaking a red light, or driving on the pavement, then they will do so.

Basically the way I see it, the new PP offences were already offences, just now they attract a different punishment.

People getting 2 points once in a while for "innocently" driving up the hard shoulder avoiding traffic jams, are the people who will do it more than once. In my time commuting, I have on several occasions seen gardai pulling people. Now they will just run the risk losing their licence if they get caught 6 times, for something as simple as skipping the traffic whereas before it was a paltry €30 or whatever.



As far as I'm concerned, continue driving the way you are. Sooner or later you will get the points...

L.

MorningStar

Heinrich wrote:

Prevention rather than detection is needed! As for the cycle lane misery, I do have the utmost sympathy for the cyclists. Unfortunately the majority of cyclists misbehave on the roads. No lights, faulty brakes, non respect of traffic lights, cycling on the footpaths and so on does not enamour them to the motoring fraternity.

I have yet to see any motorist obey all the rules. GO to any traffic lights in Dublin and see who obeys them in a car not isolated to cyclists. I have never had my brakes inspected by a driver so how they know who has faulty brakes is a mystery to me. A car weights normally at least 10 times that of a cyclist do you not think that means the car has to be a lot more responsible? Drivers threaten cyclist with cars so it is a little beyond just a simple dislike for cyclists IMHO.

Heinrich wrote:

I agree with you regarding rules are rules, however some rules are downright silly and should not be confused with the more serious ones. Speeding and drunken driving are far more serious offences that parking on the cycle lane. In fact the majority of cycle lanes are a joke and with this in mind greater prudence will keep you safe.

The view some are silly is the problem. The view you know better(any driver not you personally) is the problem. Parking in the cycle lane puts others at risk for the other person conveniece my opinion worse than putting your own life in danger along with others. All cycle lanes are made worse by drivers parking in them or cutting accross them.

Heinrich

Morningstar

I understand your annoyance but what is being discussed is road carnage. Priority should be towards prevention and this should be primarily in the more dangerous aspects.

Human nature, being what it is, tends to mitigate and frankly, hard shoulder/cycle lane driving is more annoying than dangerous!

Accident prevention is not being focussed on and appointing TV personalities to cast smoke screens over the problem is ineffective. There is a subtle difference between "seen to be doing" and "doing". We have a showman attitude to major problems in this country.

MorningStar

Heinrich wrote:

Morningstar
Accident prevention is not being focussed on and appointing TV personalities to cast smoke screens over the problem is ineffective. There is a subtle difference between "seen to be doing" and "doing". We have a showman attitude to major problems in this country.

Accident prevention means removing those likely to take risks and put themselves and others in danger. So you think to think catching people breaking the rules has no effect on those actually in accidents. That is opposite to what they know. You don't believe it but this is known effect.

Driving dangerously such as cycle lane and hard sholders kills people and causes accidents on its own. Catch all those who break the rules regularly and you will remove the people who casue accidents at night. It is more cost efficent tan easier to cath these people when they are grouped together rather than waiting in a country road to catch maybe one or two. Practicality of prevention has to play a factor.

The way people try to avoid consequences of their falts is a huge issue

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0403/speeding.html

Take responibility for your own action and hold those you know responsible too.

Heinrich

The law breaking as Gaeilge is a sad event. This sort of thing also needs to be dealt with.

When the habitual lawbreaker loses his license he simply continues driving. The courts are sadly, also party to this ludicrous system.

galah

apart from the whole "who's enforcing it" debate, I really wonder HOW these offences will make the roads safer - seeing that on most roads, the so-called "speed limits" are a joke, lines are not drawn properly (seen it many times, where it's not allowed to overtake from one side, marked by a through white line, but allowed to overtake from the other side, marked by a dotted line - the lines are reversed, that is, painted on the wrong side of the road...), and could anyone explain what "failing to drive with reasonable consideration" means, please? Where does that end, and where does dangerous driving start? And who is to judge?

Mind you - I don't care about the points anyway, since I have a foreign (European) license, and it'll take ages for them to introduce a European system... (that does not mean I am a bad driver and will exploit the system - I do love my life, you know)

But with all those other foreigners on the road, not giving a damn, I doubt the introduction of extra points will actually stop the carnage...

Instead of all this feckin' around, they should finally introduce proper compulsory driver education, bin the Learner driving (seriously...which idiot came up with that? Drive without a license, fail the test, and keep driving? They must have been drunk...), and have more gardai on the roads to actually enforce the rules...

my twopence....(and I could go on and on..)

MorningStar

galah wrote:

Mind you - I don't care about the points anyway, since I have a foreign (European) license, and it'll take ages for them to introduce a European system... (that does not mean I am a bad driver and will exploit the system - I do love my life, you know)

But with all those other foreigners on the road, not giving a damn, I doubt the introduction of extra points will actually stop the carnage...

So you won't take responsibility for your own action s choose to use a licence which means you can do this?

Why not just change your licence as you claim to act responsibly any way?

It's low in my opinion and you are part of the problem.

bullrunner

MorningStar wrote:

So you won't take responsibility for your own action s choose to use a licence which means you can do this?

Why not just change your licence as you claim to act responsibly any way?

It's low in my opinion and you are part of the problem.

Why should galah change his/her license? Surely the fact that all EU licenses are recognised in Ireland negates the need to do this? Its not galah's fault that the government are not in a position to regulate the licensing/penalty points system correctly....why should Galah have to go to the expense as well?

My girlfriend has a euro license and its valid for 20 years...if she was to go and change her license it would cost her on at least 2 occasions to keep her license valid in the same time as her current license is valid. The only person who benefits is the government.

For my two cents worth...the penalty points system is not the way to solve the problem of bad driving....its a combination of proper training (on an ongoing basis..eg initial training and refresher courses every so often), proper road layouts/signage/construction AND proper enforcement.

In my view the government is trying to get around its responsibilities on the roads by trying to force people off the road (by cutting road networks...eg bus lanes...a penalty points system which is unfair...if you appeal and lose you risk more points...very few will appeal because their insurance will suffer if they lose)

galah

I have absolutely no reason to change my license (as bullrunner pointed out as well), because I AM a safe driver, I've had proper education, and I know what I'm doing. I have never had trouble with the law in 10 years driving, and have never broken the rules - so why should I start now?

And apart from that - I think it's better to have a European license with reconised education (very regulated, my driver's license cost me 1500 Euros in lessons, theory and practice, as demanded by the German government) than an L-license, where any one could have taught you anything...

My license is valid for life, and who knows if I want to move back home some day...

Plus I will still get the fines if I break the rules, but I can't lose my license due to penalty points...

I don't see how I can be part of the problem - I'm just stressing the fact that the penalty points will not change anything...

MrPudding

galah wrote:

and could anyone explain what "failing to drive with reasonable consideration" means, please? Where does that end, and where does dangerous driving start? And who is to judge?

Ah, that would be the gardai and if you don't agree with them, a judge.

I am sure if you got a bunch of people together and tried to come up with a list of things that were considered to be "failing to drive with reasonable consideration" you would probably get concensus.

It is not possible to make up laws for every little offense. No matter how thorough you think you are there is always som muppet that will do something you never thought anyone would be stupid enough to do. For this reason we need an offense like failing to drive with reasonable consideration. It gives the gardai the ability to do someone for something not specifically legislated for. Assuming, of course, they can be bothered.

MrP

MorningStar

bullrunner wrote:

Why should galah change his/her license? Surely the fact that all EU licenses are recognised in Ireland negates the need to do this? Its not galah's fault that the government are not in a position to regulate the licensing/penalty points system correctly....why should Galah have to go to the expense as well?

As A resident of this country tevery citezin should conform to laws of the land and not be happy they can avoid them. No country in Europe has a a way of punishing other country licence holders so don't blame this governement. A citizen/resident has responility to the other memebers of society.

bullrunner wrote:

In my view the government is trying to get around its responsibilities on the roads by trying to force people off the road (by cutting road networks...eg bus lanes...a penalty points system which is unfair...if you appeal and lose you risk more points...very few will appeal because their insurance will suffer if they lose)

THe governemnt don't drive your car you do so people should take responsibility for their actions. If somebody else does wrong you should think "I am not going to do that" not "how can I also get away with t that". Bus lanes have a valid use and are needed. Car owners have not paid for the roads in thsi country even though they like to think so. THey paid a portion, the roads are for everybody. What is unfair about the penalty point system? If you appeal and are found guilty you have more points. Everybody know that court time was bieing waste due to people trying to break the system to avoid responsibility. Show me one case where somebody was wrongly fined and then found guilty on appeal. Very few will appeal becasue they know they are in the wrong . RESPONSIBILITY is your own you don't get to excuse yourself becasue YOU think other people are responsible too.

galah

I still don't get why you are implying I am not responsible just because I happen to have a foreign license?

I have never said I am happy I can avoid the points, I've just said that they don't bother me as much, as I can't get points - that does not mean I would not own up to offences (if I should happen to commit one), and it does not mean i would abuse my "status" - if you travel abroad with a full Irish license, it's the same deal. And I guess you would not go round breaking the law on purpose because you can, would you?

bullrunner

MorningStar wrote:

As A resident of this country tevery citezin should conform to laws of the land and not be happy they can avoid them.

Who said anything about avoiding the laws of the land? The government isnt legally allowed to apply penalty points to licenses issued outside the state.

MorningStar wrote:

No country in Europe has a a way of punishing other country licence holders so don't blame this governement.

Every country can punish license holders from other countries...they can fine them or jail them.

THe governemnt don't drive your car you do so people should take responsibility for their actions. If somebody else does wrong you should think "I am not going to do that" not "how can I also get away with t that". Bus lanes have a valid use and are needed.

MorningStar wrote:

Car owners have not paid for the roads in thsi country even though they like to think so.

True..but they paid a tax to enable them to use the roads. Would you think its fair to drive along the M50 pay your toll and then be told that you cant drive on the other side of the toll barrier because this is restricted to buses?

MorningStar wrote:

What is unfair about the penalty point system? If you appeal and are found guilty you have more points. Everybody know that court time was bieing waste due to people trying to break the system to avoid responsibility. Show me one case where somebody was wrongly fined and then found guilty on appeal. Very few will appeal becasue they know they are in the wrong . RESPONSIBILITY is your own you don't get to excuse yourself becasue YOU think other people are responsible too.

My point is that the Gardai are now Judge jury and executioner because they know that people dont want to risk getting more penalty points. Maybe people were trying to break the system/get out of their responsibilities...but you are entitled to your day in court should you so choose to try to defend your name without risking further punishment. ....its called living in a Democracy.

MorningStar

bullrunner wrote:

Who said anything about avoiding the laws of the land? The government isnt legally allowed to apply penalty points to licenses issued outside the state.

The law is to stop people in this country from disobeying the rules of the road in this country. If you are a resident her you should be confined to the full extent of outr laws. They are bring in this so it is just a matter of time. Like motor tax once you stay here long enough you have to pay motor tax the same will go for licences.

bullrunner wrote:

Every country can punish license holders from other countries...they can fine them or jail them.

That is not the full extent of the law applied to all.

bullrunner wrote:

True..but they paid a tax to enable them to use the roads. Would you think its fair to drive along the M50 pay your toll and then be told that you cant drive on the other side of the toll barrier because this is restricted to buses?

NO they pay motor tax to use their engine on the road. Yes I do think that would be fair if it reduced congestion, emission and other general waste. It isn't true so it matters little. The roads are to move poeple not cars

bullrunner wrote:

My point is that the Gardai are now Judge jury and executioner because they know that people dont want to risk getting more penalty points. Maybe people were trying to break the system/get out of their responsibilities...but you are entitled to your day in court should you so choose to try to defend your name without risking further punishment. ....its called living in a Democracy.

The reason it is like this is becasue people would not take responsibility for their actions. The numebr of different ways people tried to cheat the system were numours. THis made the system ineffectual. You are still entitled to your day in court but there is a penalty for wasting the courts time now. Are you suggesting your name is sullied becasue you get a speeding fine or similar? We live in a democracry and the court system and how it is applied is democratic down't over blow and exagerate the facts. Driving is a priviledge not a right break the rules and that privledge is taken away. Cause and effect. The government aren't breaking the rules here it is the driver. Look back and see the story I posted about avoiding a speeding fine.

My own mother is guilty of avoiding this stuff . They missplet her name so she got away with her 3 speeding offense which she got delivered in one week.

THe law should not privledge the indivdual over the greater good is my view not individuals rights should stamp on the majority.

In short penalty points area good thing and should be increase on some offenses. Cars cost this country more and more each year and the various taxes on them do not pay for their damage to society and environment.

MrPudding

The law allows for people to use licenses issued in certain other countries. If the government is unable to apply penalty points to one of these licenses AND they feel this is an issue then they should address it.

Drivers with foreign licenses, like myself, are under no obligation to get Irish licenses. If I had an obligation to I would. I prefer my UK license TBH, I don't have any respect for a license that was given to a bunch of people in order to cut queues.

MrP

Calina

For EU issued licences, it used to be the case that if you moved to another EU country, you had to get your licence exchanged within one year. This requirement was removed in 1996 - see here: http://europa.eu.int/youreurope/nav/en/citizens/factsheets/eu/drivinglicence/exchanging/en.html

I can't actually see it changing back any time soon.

As such, the law states that you do not have to exchange your licence issued outside Ireland (but in the EU) any more. Suggesting people who don't are not in compliance with the law is wrong.

Additionally, there is an increasing move to integrate penalties for road traffic transgressions. Already the French authorities can apply fines to Luxembourg residents for speeding offences, they are looking to extend same to the UK and if I remember rightly, there was some talk of integration between the North and the ROI regarding the application of points penalties.