Should RTE stop playing the Angelus?

DublinWriter

Considering the generally multi-cultural nation that Ireland now is, should our National Broadcaster still be playing the Angelus?

Personally, I was always a bit lukewarm about it and would have said that no, it shouldn't really be played.

However, after learning that RTE only started playing the Angelus in 1950 due to a direct request from Archbishop McQuaid, then I'm totally against it.

flogen

Is this a political question?

I'd say why not? They're hands are somewhat tied in my opinion, after all Catholicism is still the religion of the vast majority of this country and as Public Service Broadcaster they are obliged to respect that... isn't the place of the church enshrined in the constitution anyway?
I'm all for programming that deals with other religions (like Who's afraid of Islam? for my own education as much as for recognition of others), but while I'm not a very religious person myself, I can see why the angelus is still played.

Have any groups made an official complaint about it anyway?

Hobbes

I don't see the big deal tbh.

pete

it's an anachronism.

Bin it.

Gurgle

flogen wrote:

I'm not a very religious person myself, I can see why the angelus is still played.

Have you seen anyone praying to the Angelus in the last 20 years?
(I know some of my neighbours used to when I was a kid :rolleyes: )

Litcagral

They removed the associations with religion (e.g. Virgin & Child pictures) several years ago and now show muli-cultural scenes as it it meant to be a time for reflection.

It also gives one the chance to catch the BBC news headlines before RTE's Six One begins.

Litcagral

Gurgle wrote:

Have you seen anyone praying to the Angelus in the last 20 years?
(I know some of my neighbours used to when I was a kid :rolleyes: )

My mother-in-law. Twice daily.

DublinWriter

flogen wrote:

Is this a political question?

Yes. This is Ireland. Relgion is politics and vice versa.

flogen wrote:

I'd say why not? They're hands are somewhat tied in my opinion, after all Catholicism is still the religion of the vast majority of this country and as Public Service Broadcaster they are obliged to respect that...

So we should only look after the majority religious group? Isn't that the same thinking that made the situation in N.I. go t*ts-up in the 60's over Civil Rights?

Exrtreme example, but to me the Angelus is a bit like the government replacing it's official Harp letterhead with a crucifix.

Indeed, RTE's symbol was St.Bridgit's cross up until very recently.

Peronally, I think all relgious symbolism should be removed from public service bodies.

Zombrex

On the one hand its not like the Angelus offends me or anything, but I still think it is silly to keep it. It harks back to a time when the state was the church and the church was the state, an era we should be trying to cut ties with. The idea that the national broadcaster should just stop for a minute for religious reasons is ridiculuos.

So while not strong feelings on it I think it should be removed

It is a bit dated alright.

Perhaps if Muslim countries stopped playing the muezzin RTE could look at it...

Manic Moran

Mick went to the church one day, for confession. After he was finished, the priest says:

"Well, my son. For your pennance, say five Hail Marys."
"Er.. I don't know the Hail Mary, Father"
"OK. Give me ten Our Fathers."
"I don't know that either, Father"
"Well, what prayers do you know?"
"I know the Angelus"
"Say six of those so"
"Bong.... Bong.... Bong...."

NTM

RE*AC*TOR

Its a quaint throwback to a different era. Its not offensive, I'd see no reason to do away with it.

Nevyn

Many religions pray at that time as it is the end of the day.
Recently this has been worked into the angelus, nothing wrong with a 1 minute remind to take tht 1 minute out and reflect on the day what ever your beliefs.

BaldiePablo

Why get rid of it? I'm not a religious person and don't pray when it's on ... but there are still people who do so I think it should be left where it is. Personally I turn it off so why can't anybody else who doesnt like it... While I understand that it kinda references the Catholic religion and that there is a vast religion diversity in Ireland, I do think we should retain at least a portion of what this country stood for all those years ago!

Zombrex

Thaedydal wrote:

nothing wrong with a 1 minute remind to take tht 1 minute out and reflect on the day what ever your beliefs.

Nothing wrong with it gone either.

If someone want to take time out of the day to reflect on anything they want thats fine, do it any time you want.

But that is no reason for the national broadcaster to just stop at 6pm (or 6am or noon, as they do on radio).

And while the window dressing of multiculturalism might be put on the angelus on RTE1 to make it seem less obvioulsy "Catholic", it is still a Catholic event. Muslims have little need for a 1 minute break in broadcasting at 6pm (Islamic prayers last longer than a 1 minute and don't have to fall exactly at 6), and I doubt Jewish and Hindus think it is that good either.

Religion should be personal, not dictated or instructed or lead by the state.

Zombrex

BaldiePablo wrote:

I do think we should retain at least a portion of what this country stood for all those years ago!

What, oppression and intolerance?

ateam

Scrapped entirely...no place for religion in modern Ireland.

Ray777

I know it's not fashionable these days to express any kind of tolerance towards Catholicism, but I really don't see any harm in playing the Angelus for one minute every day. If there was any serious opposition from Protestants, Muslims, Jews, etc, those calling for its removal may have a point, but there isn't and to be honest, it just seems like pettiness to me.

It's one minute. Couldn't people find something less trivial to whinge about?

ateam

Ray777 wrote:

I know it's not fashionable these days to express any kind of tolerance towards Catholicism, but I really don't see any harm in playing the Angelus for one minute every day. If there was any serious opposition from Protestants, Muslims, Jews, etc, those calling for its removal may have a point, but there isn't and to be honest, it just seems like pettiness to me.

It's one minute. Couldn't people find something less trivial to whinge about?

It isn't whinging..it is a serious issue. The Angelus has no place in Ireland anymore.. If you want to say the Angelus, you can say it without it being bonged at 6 o'clock or whatever time RTE think 6 o'clock is.

DublinWriter

As the OP, I wasn't expecting The Spanish Inquisition!...

Seriously, I think the Angelus should be replaced with a roll call of the month's road fatalities every day at 6pm, just like the Late Late did last Friday.

Seeing the death-toll daily would do more to make people think twice than showing the current stuff-video safety-ads that we've all become desensitivised to.

Ray777

ateam wrote:

it is a serious issue.

If you think one minute of televised bell-ringing before the evening news is 'a serious issue', you must have an awful lot of time on your hands, tbh.

Zombrex

Ray777 wrote:

It's one minute. Couldn't people find something less trivial to whinge about?

If it is such a trivial issue why would anyone object to it being removed? If keeping it is trivial then surely getting rid of it is equally trivial no?

Are we supposed to just keep it because it exists already? Not quite following the logic in that.

Calling it a trivial issue seems to me to be just a way of dismissing or avoid the issue. It only seems to become a big issue when people start objecting to removing it, yet these are the same people who claim that it is too trivial an issue to be bothered with and therefore shouldn't be removed.

If it is too trival for you why object to it being removed?

ateam

Ray777 wrote:

If you think one minute of televised bell-ringing before the evening news is 'a serious issue', you must have an awful lot of time on your hands, tbh.

haha...its gives out an image that Ireland is inward.....an image you seem to favour.

jdivision

From The Sunday Business Post a couple of years ago:
RTE has not discussed dropping the Angelus since the Freedom of Information Act was introduced in April 1998, despite an increasing amount of public debate on the issue. RTE turned down a Freedom of Information request on the matter because no minuted meetings or discussions on the issue have taken place on the issue since the Act came into force.
In replying to the request, RTE stated that they continue to broadcast the Angelus ``on the grounds that the Angelus bells allow a minute for spiritual reflection for listeners and viewers''.
``Whilst the Angelus prayer is a specifically Roman Catholic prayer the concept of a minute to recognise the spiritual side of the Irish people is acceptable outside of the confines of the Catholic church. Indeed support for the practice has come from all the major Christian churches and from the Chief Rabbi.''
The Freedom of Information officer went on to say that as far as he was aware RTE has no plans to change its policy on the issue.
The request was also turned down on the basis that it relates to programme editorial functions, which are excluded under the Act. The state broadcaster has been transmitting the Angelus on television for 40 years and longer on radio.

ateam

ateam wrote:

haha...its gives out an image that Ireland is inward.....an image you seem to favour.

I dont know that it does in its revamped form.
The only church seen in the video I think is Glendalough.

Speaking of inward,I don't see a campaign in the UK to change their national anthem from "God Save the Queen" to " Some random higher power if there is one save the Queen"...

So do you think the Brits are inward? God save the queen still goes out on Radio 4 every night religously (forgive the pun)

murphaph

DublinWriter wrote:

As the OP, I wasn't expecting The Spanish Inquisition!...

Seriously, I think the Angelus should be replaced with a roll call of the month's road fatalities every day at 6pm, just like the Late Late did last Friday.

Seeing the death-toll daily would do more to make people think twice than showing the current stuff-video safety-ads that we've all become desensitivised to.

I wasn't going to bother replying to this as the bongos don't offend me but the above suggestion (preferably with pics of the deceased with families' consent) is a much better use of that 1 min before the news. It has a large vewership because it is immediately before the news, repeat the same again at 9pm. That'd be a much better public service.

Zombrex

Earthman wrote:

So do you think the Brits are inward? God save the queen still goes out on Radio 4 every night religously (forgive the pun)

True, but then they have a Queen. How many Irish people would think saying God Save the Queen at the end of the news would be trival?

Its all degrees.

To an English person saying God Save the Queen is trival, even if they aren't that bothered about the monarchy itself. Doesn't mean it is trival for an Irish person to say that just because we used to, and even if the phrase is largely meaningless.

To a Christian the angelus is trival. Doesn't mean it is to a non-christian.

If one supports a complete seperation of church and state, as I do, then the issue of the angelus isn't trival at all. Or to put it another way, it is trival in a "no-brainer" kinda way, and I can't see why people would make keeping it such as big deal.

I would liken it to the removal of the "God" from the US pledge of allegence.

The christian right said exactly the same thing as people are saying here, that it reflected the majority of the nation and it was trival for the non-Christians to just put up with it and say it.

But when it was found to be actually illegal under the constitution it wasn't exactly trival for the Christian-Right not to say it. Suddenly it became a big big issue. Maybe they should have considered how the other side felt instead of dismissing their feelings as trival.

civdef

Whilst the Angelus prayer is a specifically Roman Catholic prayer the concept of a minute to recognise the spiritual side of the Irish people is acceptable outside of the confines of the Catholic church. Indeed support for the practice has come from all the major Christian churches and from the Chief Rabbi

I remember at one stage before when this was a matter of debate in the media, faith leaders of various denominations stated they had no problem at all with the broadcasting of the Angelus bells, and had no objection to it's continuance.

Wicknight

Wicknight wrote:

True, but then they have a Queen. How many Irish people would think saying God Save the Queen at the end of the news would be trival?

Its all degrees.

I doubt many would jump up and down if they heard someone say "bless you" to a sneese either."Bless you" is actually a shortened version of "God Bless you" As you say its all degree's but I'm not speaking here about the issue of triviality,I was responding to the question of being inward looking.

If one supports a complete seperation of church and state, as I do, then the issue of the angelus isn't trival at all. Or to put it another way, it is trival in a "no-brainer" kinda way, and I can't see why people would make keeping it such as big deal.

Yeah but the way I look at that is, the minute at 6pm is not the angelus to non catholics, its a programme the same as any other programme.
It has its origins in a religous prayer for sure but its only a programme.
None of us have to watch it but all of us can use it if we want to.Theres definitely a public service demand for it as I'd feel confident that if it were to be announced that it was to be removed, those that treat it as a religous minute would be out on the streets to defend it and keep it.
I'd lay a bet that there would be more percetage wise in the population out there to support its retention than there are viewers for many other quirky high brow public service programmes.
I'll defend those programmes as well.

Gurgle

Earthman wrote:

Theres definitely a public service demand for it

This being Ireland, it probably costs €2,000,000 per episode.

If they want to see what the market is like, they should sell a DVD box set - 40 years of the Angelus. Then if the sales don't represent a significant portion of the population they should scrap the 'show'.

GeorgeBailey

DublinWriter wrote:

So we should only look after the majority religious group?

I agree. And at Christmas time, they should be wishing us all "Happy Holidays".

Zombrex

Gurgle wrote:

If they want to see what the market is like, they should sell a DVD box set

Or just stop it and see if anyone actually complains ... it is trival after all

Gurgle

Gurgle wrote:

This being Ireland, it probably costs €2,000,000 per episode.

If they want to see what the market is like, they should sell a DVD box set - 40 years of the Angelus. Then if the sales don't represent a significant portion of the population they should scrap the 'show'.

While I find that idea funny it goes against the spirit of public service television.
Mind you the angelus with an add break and a part two... hmmmm it does have a committed audience... it does like have a big viewership and ergo maybe there should be an add break in it *






* That would however defeat the purpose of it being a moment of quiet reflection away from such things

DublinWriter

Earthman wrote:

Speaking of inward,I don't see a campaign in the UK to change their national anthem from "God Save the Queen" to " Some random higher power if there is one save the Queen"...

So do you think the Brits are inward? God save the queen still goes out on Radio 4 every night religously (forgive the pun)

You're comparing apples with oranges (no pun...etc). It's not like Radio 4 plays an hour of evensong at 6pm.

In truth...

a) The Queen is the UK head of state.

b) Radio4 closes down and has to play something, that's their national anthem

c) Wasn't so long ago that RTE used to play the National Anthem every night on TV before they closed down (around 10pm I think).

DublinWriter

Gurgle wrote:

If they want to see what the market is like, they should sell a DVD box set - 40 years of the Angelus.

Oh man, that's funny. I wonder if it will have a director's commentary feature?

e.g., commentary from S.39, ep. 23:
"I was really nervous shooting this scene because the statue kept moving"

DublinWriter

DublinWriter wrote:

You're comparing apples with oranges (no pun...etc). It's not like Radio 4 plays an hour of evensong at 6pm.

I'm not comparing apples and oranges.The Queen is not only the head of state in the UK, she is also the head of the church of England which is the established church there.
We dont even have an established church as church and state are separate.

Caller said we were inward looking because we have this bell ringing for a minute so I'm asking him if he thinks the UK is even more inward for having things the way they have them.
It's a legitimate logical approach to take with his stance.

If you think we're silly to have something (that is actually popular) that some people use for their religion on at a certain time every day, then we're in good company.
The angelus is actually much more secular to be honest than the "leading" programme "a prayer at bedtime" or BBC ones songs of praise.

Radio 4 also do a religous usually christian reflection every morning .
If your problem is actually with religous programming,I think you are being anti religous which is an unfair stance to take against a substantial proportion of the population.
It's as unfair as taking a stance against any other service provided to serve a particular community.
It's ironic that the one you give out about here was actually revamped to reflect a wider purpose.

c) Wasn't so long ago that RTE used to play the National Anthem every night on TV before they closed down (around 10pm I think).

That Song doesnt have God as its central theme. Whats on RTÉ one at six since the revamp is a bell ringing, a popular TV programme (albeit used as a focal point by catholics but not exclusively so) its not a prayer.

fly_agaric

Wicknight wrote:

If it is such a trivial issue why would anyone object to it being removed? If keeping it is trivial then surely getting rid of it is equally trivial no?

It is a trivial issue for people who aren't devout Catholics or ardent secularists or multiculturalists (those multiculturalists for whom replacing the Catholic iconography/Church art with some smiley-happy videos of people pausing for reflection in modern Ireland isn't enough of a watering down to make the thing inclusive).

The former will see its eventual removal as another signpost on Ireland's path to hell and both of the latter will see it as some great victory for the forces of tolerance. A mark of the great progress Ireland is making.

I suppose most people in Ireland (who are lapsed Catholics) will feel a (very) slight twinge to see it go, but that's about it.

Now, the mainly Church-controlled school system - that's where things may get nastier...

Hagar

It's just another RTE repeat. Big deal.

MrSinn

DublinWriter wrote:

Considering the generally multi-cultural nation that Ireland now is, should our National Broadcaster still be playing the Angelus?

Personally, I was always a bit lukewarm about it and would have said that no, it shouldn't really be played.

However, after learning that RTE only started playing the Angelus in 1950 due to a direct request from Archbishop McQuaid, then I'm totally against it.

Yes of course they should give up on the angelus,they should also try putting hordcore porn on late at night to repent for the huge burden that has been put on the nation for all those years of watching praying and listening to it
And what about all those islamic TV stations on sky,are those asses ever going to stop talking about allah,i mean it's the 21th century,we are all too modern,smart,civilised to be bothered with it
We should also give up any little traditions that we have in OUR country just in case we offend a non national

Ag marbh

Bin it and help encourage the fall of religion in these modern times.

Zombrex

Ag marbh wrote:

Bin it and help encourage the fall of religion in these modern times.

Amen

oscarBravo

I was working on the roof of a church steeple this afternoon. Instead of a bell, they have four huge loudspeakers that blast out eighteen electronic bongs at 6pm.

Whatever about RTE, I could have done without the deafening I got this evening...! :eek:

Gray

The Angelus is also about Irish heritege which is mainly Catholic, you don't need to go changing things just because there are now more non-Irish & non-Catholic in the country. And before anyone calls me a racist I'm non-Irish & non-Catholic, if things like this bothered me would not have come here.

ateam

Gray wrote:

The Angelus is also about Irish heritege which is mainly Catholic, you don't need to go changing things just because there are now more non-Irish & non-Catholic in the country. And before anyone calls me a racist I'm non-Irish & non-Catholic, if things like this bothered me would not have come here.

I am Irish and a Catholic..the Angelus gives no sense of heritage to me. It's dated, unnecessary and a waste of money. I am a firm supporter of religion being thought in the family and at home...in this way, religion isn't imposed on people if they don't want it. The Angelus falls into this category.

I support the zombies and bells. Those upset by it deserve to be.

magick

no i think it should be kept on air , its like the simpsons , although i dont watch too much id miss it if it was gone

Zebra3

Get rid of it!!

And maybe have one minute of ads at 6pm to reflect our new religion.

zuma

Everyday when its on I just change the channel and see whats on the others for the following minute.

Personially I think it should be further watered down or the 1 minute used for public announcements or something.

I have NEVER seen any relation or anyone else pray when the angelus bells are rung....but my Father used to bless himself when it played years ago.

Gurgle

Gray wrote:

you don't need to go changing things just because there are now more non-Irish & non-Catholic in the country

So, generally, under what circumstances should you go changing things?

Zombrex

Gray wrote:

The Angelus is also about Irish heritege which is mainly Catholic, you don't need to go changing things just because there are now more non-Irish & non-Catholic in the country. And before anyone calls me a racist I'm non-Irish & non-Catholic, if things like this bothered me would not have come here.

Irish heritage as in Catholic Ireland cira 1950s ... er, no thanks I think that is some heritage we can do without (violent priests, Catholic oppression, single mothers disappearing, orphanages etc)

Whiskeyjack

My god people it's just one minute during the day.This is political correctness taken too far.