So what's wrong with the SU?

Danger Bob

Right. So there's something rotten in the state of TCD. I've been reading loads of posts here and I've noticed how acceptable it is to unreservedly slag off the SU. This is a growing trend which can be spotted on plenty of other sites, especially with the formation of a quite popular anti-SU club on Bebo. It's one of these things I always tried to ignore. After all, when your favourite item of clothing is an exec hoodie, such criticisms can be taken quite personally. However, today, over a nice cup of tea, while discussing an idea I had for next year, a fellow exec member said to me, "It's a good idea but people hate the SU so it probably won't work." I was quite shocked but rather than pin her down and slap her until she took it back, I said I'd put it to the people.

The comments I've heard people make about the SU officers range from "They're just a pile of do-gooders and careerists"; to "They just don't represent me." However, I don't really know if people really believe these things. I deliberately stayed out of the 'What is a Hack?' debate as I know I probably am one (the nice kind) but I did note people saying things like "A hack is someone who actually believes that the SU can achieve something" which, given that I'm in incoming-officer-gonna-change-the-world phase, actually disgusted me.

One point I'd make and this is not me trying to get up anyone's nose or pick a fight with anyone (so Christine don't take offence) is that I believe that the SU does more for the average student than DUCAC or CSC (I am biased though) but each of those organisations are better funded than the SU. Still, you never hear random students chatting about how crap DUCAC are or how the CSC are wholly unrepresentative of their needs. (Just for the record, these aren't accusations I'd make, I'm just offering examples.)

So, gather round people and tell me exactly what's wrong with our lovely SU. This is the chance for all you SU-haters to get a good early dig in on a future Sabbat. It's also a chance for people who genuinely want change, rather than just wanting something to whinge about, to come forward. Basically, I'd rather not sit in an office next year working my ass off for people who say I do nothing for them. I know it'll happen whatever I do but I'd appreciate the chance to know what's wrong because as Dave Quinn famously said, "You have to know how it's broken to know how to fix it."

Fire away....

Agent Smith

this?

ApeXaviour

agent smith wrote:

this?

The lack of the body's ability to produce enough lactase to deal with a gallon of milk in under an hour?


But to bob. I see it as more of a general apathy towards the SU. Apathy is natural and common. I personally would have a similar apathy toward DUCAC and the CSC. The difference is they are not actively telling me that I should be interested in them (as they are as governing bodies, not the individual societys/sports clubs themselves). The SU claims to be for everybody which it obviously isn't and which nothing else I can see in college attempts. When you pursue telling someone they should care about something "because it's important" when they dont, it's going to cause a defensive reaction, and hence resentment.

Now maybe I'm being a little hard on the SU. But there is certainly an element among them who I'd percieve as being a little zealous in their efforts to popularise the organisation. Or at the very least they just don't see why people aren't interested. Hence their methods are counterproductive.

MaxBax

Danger Bob wrote:

that I believe that the SU does more for the average student than DUCAC or CSC (I am biased though) but each of those organisations are better funded than the SU. Still, you never hear random students chatting about how crap DUCAC are or how the CSC are wholly unrepresentative of their needs. (Just for the record, these aren't accusations I'd make, I'm just offering examples.)

well obviously you've never met me cos all i talk about is how bad ducac are. Actually they're not all that bad this year.

Sure a few things about funding. i don't know what the SU needs money for, or what its expenses are. But DUCAC and CSC get funding, but a signficant amount of this goes back to the students (funding for clubs and socities). Secondly, DUCAC is a professional body with full time long term staff. I'd hate to see DUCAC run by students that change every autumn. CSC has a couple of full time "proper" staff too.

You'd have to wonder if hacks put too much responcibility on the shoulders of SU officers. Correct me if i'm wrong, but what is a SU officer? Is it not some young adult, with little or no experience in their given area, working on a 1yr contract with little or no chance of an extension? How can we expect them to change the world?

I'd agree a lot of people seem to bitch about the SU more often then the CSC or DUCAC or the GSU or PUB. Maybe it's because the SU has a less clearly defined role?

I'd like to know if the 5 sabbatical officers would be better of replaced by some people that actually want to do the job properly and full time for at least 4 years. Not nessecarrily students (or good spellers).

gilroyb

The fact the SU work very hard isn't the same as working for what students want done. What has the SU actually achieved for students on campus (rather than union members in Columbia)? Remember, doing nothing might be the best thing the SU can do in some situations. I was quite pro-union when I started in first year, but each year my support for the union has fallen. It is not the executives themselves who I dislike, I just feel that while they work very hard, their work does not have a positive impact.

Ents, education and welfare all have very positive aspects, but they are lost in the more high profile actions. Being associated with the apparent train wreck that is the USI only has a detrimental effect on the standing of the TCDSU, something that is amplified by the in/out nature of this association. I think most students believe that the SU has no power outside Trinity's walls, and while TCDSU tries to effect change outside of just taking action within college, then it hurts its power within college. The SU should fly the flag with more events like the 10k walk, rather than the half hearted student protests.

On the issue of the SU, the Record has an article on voter turnout. It implies that if only students would listen then the SU could show how great they can be. Why should students listen? If students don't want to make use of their SU, how can the SU be so arrogant as to assume that the students really do want them, they just don't understand how much they offer? I vote in every election I can get a ballot for. This years SU election was by far the most difficult to get informed. Not only did no candidate address any of my lectures, but no campaign even offered me a manifesto! I'm in college all day, every day, and only got to read policy documents that had been discarded around the library and the arts block. Even the usual blanketing of the buttery with leaflets was significantly less than previous years.

To the incoming SU, good luck, but remember that sometimes less is more. Couches and water fountains may not be much, but they do show the SU can have a positive effect. Until the SU gains support from the students through little acts, it will not have any power to back up its bluffs on the bigger issues such as fees and S&M reforms.

Crash

This is quite a drunken post, so ignore anything that doesnt make sense.

re: the SU versus DUCAC versus CSC, i think the issue is that DUCAC has 75 (random number plucked from the air) clubs to represent students wants, CSC has 110 or somesuch societies for the same. the SU has one, itself. so thereby it becomes a very visible target in that its much easier to pin down.

As for other issues, despite this being against my own politics, its my belief that the SU is too centrist for its own good. in essence its own unwillingness to take a stand on issue damages it on its own.

To address Gilroyb's post re: campaigning, this year was poor. very poor imo - compared with last years campaigning there was really no presence and that.

erm, i'll alaborate when sober. and when i can spell alaborate, because the spelling i've done on that word is ATROCIOUS. possibly the spelling on atrocious was also atrocious, but still.....**** it.

Agent Smith

ladies and Gentlemen......




Crash_000


Also, FYI There are currently 101 societies.

cuckoo

http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~donalmcc/exec/ExecMinutesMT9.5_Final.pdf

Those minutes sum up a lot of my frustrations with the SU. Trinity News have a report on proposals for charges to by introduced for the health centre, welfare Steph is quoted as saying she wouldn't be opposed to charges and we all read TN and are left thinking that charges are an inevitability.

So, the exec have a special meeting and agree amongst themselves that:

a)charges are bad, but what's up with the exam ones?
b)'not not' is grammatically bad
c)the SU will do stuff on committees about this
d)trinity news really annoy president John

Speaking to members of the exec about this the sentiment that one or two expressed was "oh, yeah, we're still opposed to fees, but we don't want to be seen to be having a knee jerk reaction to what trinity news print".

So, danger bob (not that i'm ascribing the above sentiment to you, but you've asked our opinions):

i) why are trinity news the enemy? many, many more student read it than will ever pick up the Record. the SU (which is what some members of an exec will always consider themselves to embody) should be gratefull for this - the weekly president's email isn't really all that informative and is rountinely deleted by most students

ii) why didn't the record have a cover story on the next issue about how the union is opposed to fees? it (and starbucks for the arts block, but that was more in admiration of the great photoshopping of the pic) was the main talking point among people who were reading TN and idly chatting about what goes on in college. as far as the great unwashed student body, yup us ppl who complain on message boards and bebo about the SU, are concerned the SU is in favour of charges for the student centre

iii) why the hell do exec minutes have to be hosted on the education officers personal website, and wtf is up with tcdsu.org?

eta: i'm not SU bashing mindlessly, i do care about what i think an SU could achieve, in unity being strength and how we should be coming together as a student movement to try and improve society. and, yeah, maybe i'm an idealist, but when an idealist like me is let down by my union the drop is even greater.

cuckoo

crash_000 wrote:

re: the SU versus DUCAC versus CSC, i think the issue is that DUCAC has 75 (random number plucked from the air) clubs to represent students wants, CSC has 110 or somesuch societies for the same. the SU has one, itself. so thereby it becomes a very visible target in that its much easier to pin down.

CSC and DUCAC don't involved paying 5 students a salary to represent us, 5 students that are selected in the most bizarre recruitment prcess ever.

This year's election was a bit lame, but there were some good aspects. I think the debate that the Phil held with the presidential candidates was good as it allowed the time for a more indepth discussion of the candidates and what they stood for (or, sadly, didn't as some of them didn't seem to stand for anything at all).

Nietzschean

cuckoo wrote:

the SU (which is what some members of an exec will always consider themselves to embody) should be gratefull for this - the weekly president's email isn't really all that informative and is rountinely deleted by most students

OOoo thats me, mail filters delete it long before i see it

MaxBax

I personally think it's very bad manners to delete an email without reading it. You never know when you've misjudged Ollue Olluabye and he is genuinely looking for someone to mind his millions.

I think further SU/DUCAC/CSC direct comparisons should end, it's like comparing apples and oranges, extremely different apples and oranges.

I wasn't aware of some SU anti Trinity News sentiment. I must start reading it more often if it is this contraversial.

MaxBax

MaxBax wrote:

I wasn't aware of some SU anti Trinity News sentiment. I must start reading it more often if it is this contraversial.

It happens most years. TN, being completely independent of the SU, reports on the SU - not just the positive but also the negative. TN has been incredibly fair this year, reporting on the class rep elections (which I've thanked Andrew for) as well as raising awareness of Disabled issues, and giving publicity to Mental Health Week. And they have picked some of the officers up on issues too.

If the 5 sabbatical officers do something wrong, the people who elected them should know - plus although everyone makes mistakes, it will mean that they would be less likely to do the same. I can think of other colleges which have no student media (not even SU-based) where there is incredible corruption in the SU, so thank yourselves that TN is there.

By the way, no I don't have any anti-TN sentiments...

Danger Bob

OK so we're getting to the core of the issue. I'd like to add that there aren't really any anti-TN sentiments in Exec. There was just a lot of tension at that meeting because certain people felt they were being accused of not doing their jobs. Also, we all had our backs up over the whole reg fee issue. Donal takes rather precise minutes so if there's a five minute conversation in a two hour long meeting where a few people are angry with TN, it reads a lot worse than it probably was. Any anti-TN jibes at this stage are more just a joke than anything else. What I will say is that TN do break a lot of controversial stories and, because sometimes the SU officers involved are bound by professional ethics not to speak on the issue at that time, it makes it look like the union have been caught napping when actually, they were just trying to do their job in a professional manner.

So...in response, to further the debate...

Cuckoo wrote:

CSC and DUCAC don't involved paying 5 students a salary to represent us, 5 students that are selected in the most bizarre recruitment prcess ever.

Would you prefer to have a full staff of civil servants handling student issues? And would you rather we just did away with democratic elections? Also, the salary is fairly small when you consider the level of responsibility involved.

Cuckoo wrote:

why the hell do exec minutes have to be hosted on the education officers personal website, and wtf is up with tcdsu.org?

I don't think it's a flaw in the union that one of its officers is nice enough to host the minutes. They're there and (afaik) there's clear links to them on tcdsu.org. The website situation's a bit crap but don't judge a union on such a thing. It'll be fixed soon enough.

MaxBax wrote:

I think further SU/DUCAC/CSC direct comparisons should end

Good point. I was just trying to illustrate what I was saying. I think we lost the point of the thread through that comparison.

gilroyb wrote:

the apparent train wreck that is the USI

Trust me, we're better off in than out.

gilroyb wrote:

....through little acts

Like what? Attending numerous exams giving out bottles of water and breakfast bars? Organising some great parties? Having great mystery trips? Selling stationery cheaper than the nearest competitors? Fighting for disability issues? Constantly pushing the library to get more core books in and succeeding? Giving out condoms? Offering free and confidential help and advice? Are these the little things you mean or am I way off?

MaxBax wrote:

DUCAC is a professional body with full time long term staff.... CSC has a couple of full time "proper" staff too.

Have you met Simon or Alan? The SU has staff as well. Unfortunately, most of them are locked into DUST which isn't doing incredibly well. However, those two guys (and probably others I've forgotten) give serious continuity to the union. They make sure it stays on track.

ApeXaviour wrote:

The SU claims to be for everybody which it obviously isn't...

WTF? Of course the SU claims to be for everybody. The SU IS everybody. I read a comment which I can't find now where someone said that members of Exec think the SU is just them but that's just not true. Everyone posting here is an SU member. Whether you like the idea of being involved or not, you are involved. I'm never gonna be a union Nazi and start dragging people into House 6 and forcing them to become class reps but I do expect students to give credit where it's due. Any student who says the SU does nothing for them is either lying or very short-sighted.

Look, I'm well aware that I have a significant level of bias here but I think I've made a fair point. Please contribute to this debate. I think it's a good one. You pay for it so you should throw in your opinion as to where it's falling short. However, I'm still reading the same old stories of how the SU doesn't do things that it clearly does. Feel free to prove me wrong. (sorry for the long post)

BrenC

Most people in the SU are on it for the reference on their CV's in all honesty, Most are alright at their jobs but people who would have done a better job didn't get in for some reason or another.I don't hate the SU, hopefully next year will be better *fingers crossed*

cuckoo

Danger Bob wrote:

What I will say is that TN do break a lot of controversial stories and, because sometimes the SU officers involved are bound by professional ethics not to speak on the issue at that time, it makes it look like the union have been caught napping when actually, they were just trying to do their job in a professional manner.

There's professional, and there's professional. SU officers first allegiance must be to the union members they represent, i think that sometimes people's heads get a little bit turned by being allowed to sit at 'the grown ups table' as it were, at college committees. Knowledge is power, and it's human nature to play games with the access to it. I've been a news reporter for the university record, and i've chased people for quotes and responses. It is possible to respond to queries without divulging confidentially committee stuff, you can give bland boring quotes along the lines of "our first priority is to continue to do all in our power to ensure that the water fountains are kept in a good state of repair", or you can make a decision that the water fountains are vitally important, and that the SU members need to know right now that the fountains are under threat (....and then chain yourself to the said fountains, on hunger strike).

Danger Bob wrote:

Would you prefer to have a full staff of civil servants handling student issues? And would you rather we just did away with democratic elections? Also, the salary is fairly small when you consider the level of responsibility involved.

I love voting. i'd hate to see an end to the elections, but i would like them to be about slightly more than who has the prettiest photo on their poster.

And....it's the elections in a way that opens up the SU to the criticism that the CSC and DUCAC manage to escape. Candidates canvass, campaign, lecture address and talk to individual students - 'vote for me to represent you'. Post an election our expectations are high, in a 'god dammit, i elected them/they delayed my lecture with their addressing/their face was on a poster everywhere'.

The very process leads the SU open to criticism, which i think is healthy. But....there are some flaws that are involved, sometimes elections are influenced by dirty tricks.

Salary+accommadation+mobile phone bill+sundry expenses, a year being a student but without the hassle of exams and essays does look kind of like a mega perk - again, more stuff that'll lead to expectations of good performance from our full time officers. Rarely is there criticism of the unpaid, part time officers, i think the majority of students will limit that to a bit of light hearted hack bashing and give props if a campaign goes well.

Danger Bob wrote:

I don't think it's a flaw in the union that one of its officers is nice enough to host the minutes. They're there and (afaik) there's clear links to them on tcdsu.org. The website situation's a bit crap but don't judge a union on such a thing. It'll be fixed soon enough.

No, the flaw in the union i was referring to there is that the minutes weren't on tcdsu.org. The SU website is a disgrace, it's been so neglected that netsoc took it down due to the lack of security updates. The back up again website looks awful and hasn't been updated in a month. This is where i will get a little ranty: 'soon enough'?!?!???!!

How do SU officers communicate with members?

-presidents email, see Nietzechen's comment up thread
-class addresses, some reps do a good job at this, but will mostly be focussing on class specific stuff like extra tutorials and class parties.
-The University Record, but it's tricky to get that distributed everywhere by the nature of hard copy, and well, TN is a better read this year
-Posters
-Leaflet racks (kudos to welfare Steph, i just wish the racks had the SU logo on them as the vast majority of ppl assume college puts the leaflets there)
-the occasional stand
-SU council, for the 100 or so that attend.

With the limitations of the above methods, off campus sites, evening students, prospective students (they are the future and all that) the website is an important way to facilitate two way communication.

Danger Bob wrote:

Trust me, we're better off in than out.

Re USI: No, trust me (my old USI jacket trumps your exec hoodie on this one), we're better off continually assessing the value of being members of the national union, and pushing for national campaigns and representation that reflect what our members in TCDSU want to see. TCDSU members have voted to be part of USI, and it's important that the officers of TCDSU participate in USI campaigns, and let TCD students know what's going on.

Danger Bob wrote:

Like what? Attending numerous exams giving out bottles of water and breakfast bars? Organising some great parties? Having great mystery trips? Selling stationery cheaper than the nearest competitors? Fighting for disability issues? Constantly pushing the library to get more core books in and succeeding? Giving out condoms? Offering free and confidential help and advice? Are these the little things you mean or am I way off?

Don't tack the confidential advice at the end of the paragraph, yeah, the free water and parties are nice and all, but the knowledge that the SU officers (esp education and welfare) are there is something i think everyone appreciates, ppl i've said to me "i've never needed to go to them, and probably never will, but it's important they're there in a there-but-for-the-grace-of-god way". This is where the SU can sometimes be a little too modest. It'd be cool if there were posters up telling us that 'x number of new books are in the library, we're working for you, let us know if there's other books that are needed'.

Danger Bob wrote:

Have you met Simon or Alan? The SU has staff as well. Unfortunately, most of them are locked into DUST which isn't doing incredibly well. However, those two guys (and probably others I've forgotten) give serious continuity to the union. They make sure it stays on track.

when i first read that sentence i thought it was 'the SU has staff as well, unfortunately'. *giggle* Big shout out to Simon and Alan, but their roles are very, very seperate from policy. It's up to the membership to ensure the SU stays on track.

Danger Bob wrote:

WTF? Of course the SU claims to be for everybody. The SU IS everybody. I read a comment which I can't find now where someone said that members of Exec think the SU is just them but that's just not true. Everyone posting here is an SU member. Whether you like the idea of being involved or not, you are involved. I'm never gonna be a union Nazi and start dragging people into House 6 and forcing them to become class reps but I do expect students to give credit where it's due. Any student who says the SU does nothing for them is either lying or very short-sighted.

Any student who says the SU does nothing for them is expressing their own freely held opinion. I personally am lost without my glasses, (v, v short-sighted) so does that explain me not being a 100% SU cheerleader?

Danger Bob wrote:

Look, I'm well aware that I have a significant level of bias here but I think I've made a fair point. Please contribute to this debate. I think it's a good one. You pay for it so you should throw in your opinion as to where it's falling short. However, I'm still reading the same old stories of how the SU doesn't do things that it clearly does. Feel free to prove me wrong. (sorry for the long post)

What stories are you reading about the SU not doing things that it clearly does?

Crash

To be truly honest, if i reached the point where i had to use "SU whatever officer" to get a job, i'd be quite worried about my own competency in general.

MaxBax

danger bob are you the incoming education officer. i have to say i like your attitude. fair play.

I think the 2 educational officers i've had dealings with are very good at what they do. and i'm sure it took a hell of a lot of self starting intitiative etc. to learn what they know about the bits and pieces that make up their job. But I always ask myself, if you had a person that did this year in year out, would it not be more efficient. assuming that person wasn't a waster.

Comhra....

Oooh yay contraversial, that's what I like to see!!

First of all Rob

Basically, I'd rather not sit in an office next year working my ass off for people who say I do nothing for them.

maybe you ran for the wrong position then!!! Don't expect any thanks next year be it from your fellow sabbats (no reflection on next years team...or this years) or the student mass. You may get one or two thank yous from the individual students that you help, the class reps that you discuss issues with or the lost tourist looking for the book of kells. Tourist aside, that should be enough for you! I am friggin' biased and I know it but the SU is not about being popular or shoving stuff down people's throats!! Yes the SU is there for everyone but only when they need it!

I agree that people need to be informed of what's going on but we don't need to chase students. Someone else in this thread said that the SU clearly wasn't there for everyone. I think I know where you are coming from; the SU is very much seen as a clique, a gang of nerds who like hanging around doing nerdy things and wearing silly hoodies (no offence to Rob or your hoodie). But the SU is actually there for everyone, you can drop in to the welfare officer if you need some information or advice and the education officer is the same. It is the education officer's job to fight your corner if college is treating you badly or making your exam appeal difficult and he or she is not going to turn you away just because you were slagging the SU off on a website or someones Bebo account. At least I know that is the case this year, I hope it is too next year.

TN wise I think we are so lucky to have them. But I think they have been a little too fair this year. They could have been a lot harsher and could have/should have picked up on a lot more "silly" things people in the SU did this year. And I'm sorry but I for one find it really hard to believe that there is no anti-TN movement on exec this year. Have you read the exec minutes???? In one weeks minutes our "brilliant leader" John Mannion is quoted as saying he is "going to get" one of the TN reporters because he didn't like what he was writing.

Now I'm not against having elected representatives running the SU but I am on a bit of a rant so I will mention this and show everyone how much of a hack I am (I say that neither with pride or disdain) but Rob to quote you;

Would you prefer to have a full staff of civil servants handling student issues? And would you rather we just did away with democratic elections?

whether i agree or not I think this comment is a bit rich coming from someone who was involved in the writing of and bringing of a Constitutional Amendment motion to USI congress which basically got rid of two full time positions; Deputy President and the Equality Officer.

And finally to end on a nice note, the website.
I think cuckoo has been in college long enough and seen enough SU websites to be able to make quite well informed comments about the current website. Everyone has a right to complain about it, it's terrible and has been all year. Telling us to wait and it's coming soon enough really isn't good enough!!

So what's wrong with the SU? Its' image! People are spending too long giving out about people badmouthing the union. Why don't they shut up and get on with their work! Forget about what people are saying, prove them wrong by accomplishing things! What was it my Mom used to say...sticks and stones...

Awayindahils

Danger Bob wrote:

Trust me, we're better off in than out.

Ok so first to the point of USI. No one has been able to say why we're better off in than out. Saying trust me is almost as bad as saying because i said so, its not an answer, its just a statement left hanging in thin air. So please elaborate of as to why we are better off in USI than out of USI.

WTF? Of course the SU claims to be for everybody. The SU IS everybody. I read a comment which I can't find now where someone said that members of Exec think the SU is just them but that's just not true. Everyone posting here is an SU member. Whether you like the idea of being involved or not, you are involved. I'm never gonna be a union Nazi and start dragging people into House 6 and forcing them to become class reps but I do expect students to give credit where it's due. Any student who says the SU does nothing for them is either lying or very short-sighted.

I think i'm going to borrow from UCD for this one. Everyone in UCD is a memeber of the L and H but you have to pay in order to vote. If we compare this to our own students union, yes everyone is automatically a member and you don't have to pay to vote, but there is a sort of air that is atributed to people who have SU involvment of I'm involved so therefor i know ****, and you should all listen to me. Whether or not the SU is for eveybody, the simple and realistic fact is that on the ground people do not feel like a part of the SU. It is just another society, with its own cliques and pretences. Yes everyone is affected by areas such as education, and i made this point, all be it slightly inadvertently in another thread already, but in college everyone is going to be affected by things such as education, andmore so if the SU did not exist there would still be individual students who would be making the effort to talk to lecturers and stuff, its just at the moemnt these are elected positions. The SU does not appear to be approachable, particularily the Sabbats for first years, they appear like the committee of nay other society, aloof and self important, and even more so becuase the represent everyone.

Actually i was thinking about thi9s on the bus yesterday, about how when i first came to college io thought that people such as the Sabbats were amazing important people, who were just brillaint and got elected becuase they were brilliant, it took a while to strike me that they were just slightly over enthusiastic students, and here in lies naother problem. Not only is apathy a terrible trend at the moment, its also cool almost. An accepted norm, freshers week i scoffed at my friend who was going to run for class rep. *gotta run, will finish this later*

MaxBax

ooh i like comhra too she's direct. let the games begin.

Awayindahils

Awayindahils wrote:

that people such as the Sabbats were amazing important people, who were just brillaint and got elected becuase they were brilliant, it took a while to strike me that they were just slightly over enthusiastic students, and here in lies naother problem.

Heh, yeah I remember in second year Annie Gatling was President of the SU and when I was at class rep training I saw her and was weirded out by the whole thing - *WOW THAT'S the President of the SU. WOW!* and such.

Agent Smith

Myth wrote:

Heh, yeah I remember in second year Annie Gatling was President of the SU and when I was at class rep training I saw her and was weirded out by the whole thing - *WOW THAT'S the President of the SU. WOW!* and such.

WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR NAME?

agent smith

agent smith wrote:

WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR NAME?

What? I asked for it to be changed back, thanks to the kindness of an unnamed admin.

Edwardius

Myth wrote:

Heh, yeah I remember in second year Annie Gatling was President of the SU and when I was at class rep training I saw her and was weirded out by the whole thing - *WOW THAT'S the President of the SU. WOW!* and such.

That wasn't my reaction. I was surprised at how incapable she was of retalliating to the stream of abuse I unleashed on her and the rest of that year's SU heads one fine evening. I showed those damn infidels.

Since I've no longer "edu" in my name: Rob, because David Quinn said something in a debate by the Phil does not make it famous. In fact, it makes it a horrific in-joke. And I believe that is one of the problems many students mention when they refer to how the SU is irrelevant - the in-jokes, the cliqueness, the lack of actually doing things for the students who need help.

The only way to change the perception that the SU does nothing is to actually do things which will help students, which can't always be done since you have a million meetings a week. So hello, Catch 22.

Agent Smith

Right, theres Only one Thing for it.



Disband the Su.

MissSunshine

Danger Bob
I'd like to add that there aren't really any anti-TN sentiments in Exec

bo%%ox

Cuckoo
"why are trinity news the enemy?"

this is gonna sound very naive and cliched but they're not the enemy, and one of the biggest problems that the union has had this year has been this "us and them" attitude between exec and TN. I know Rob and a couple of others will be quick to jump in here and disagree with me, but the truth is that even though in reality only a very small minority of exec (perhaps four people, five at a push) view TN as some kind of evil empire out to destroy the good work of the SU, the reality of the situation is that we need. This year in particular we've needed. Addressing the situation in the health centre in particular TN were given that information because it was felt that the students of the college needed to know it. Contrary to popular belief this was by no stretch of the imagination "new news", the su has been fighting college on this for a couple of years andf the only reason that charges have not been introduced to date is because, in previous years, the su and the health centre have combined forces on this one. TN were told about this because the health centre were worried that this years su weren't going to, even attempt to, do anything about it. The only reason the su are opposing the charges is because exec had a special meeting about it, a meeting called after a couple of members read TN and for that our ever charming president should be thanking TN as opposed to threatening their news editor in a public forum.

MaxBax
"Correct me if i'm wrong, but what is a SU officer? Is it not some young adult, with little or no experience in their given area, working on a 1yr contract with little or no chance of an extension?"

True, this is a fundamental flaw with our su (and with every other su in the country) but due to the representative naturof su work i really feel it's important that we're the ones electing our officers and that we get a chance to review this every year. Though i will admit that that's just a gut feeling with me.

gilroyb
Couches and water fountains may not be much, but they do show the SU can have a positive effect. Until the SU gains support from the students through little acts, it will not have any power to back up its bluffs on the bigger issues such as fees and S&M reforms.

true things like the couches are really important, both to students and the su, little things like that help answer the "what has the su ever done for ME?" question in any debate, but i don't think it would be healthy for the union to define itself by these things. Nor is it far for you to belittle the work done on the bigger issues, two/three years ago fees were a huge issue, now they're not, that doesn't make them a "bluff" they're not an issue because unions all over the country got their student with the help of, dare i say it (?), usi and protested. Granted that's not the only reason we're not paying fees but it helped. Little things like muesli bars may be cool on a day-to-day one-on-one basis (and kudos to donal, exams are nasty places) but the su has to stand somewhere on the bigger issues too. In fact i'd go so far as to say that i reckon the union has suffered huge setbacks this year because some officers have been a little reluctant to take a definitive stance on many issues, it's no good in someone running for a position if they're not prepared to stand up for what's best for the students of the college. (big cliche, i know, and i apologise but htis whole thread has my blood going)

BrenC
Most people in the SU are on it for the reference on their CV's in all honesty

that's a bit unfair, i know plenty of former officers who've done great jobs have good degrees and still have trouble finding employment

BrenC
people who would have done a better job didn't get in for some reason or another

true, but that's the nature of democracy. those who didn't vote should learn from that when next saying "he/she should never have gotten in anyway"


i'm gonna leave it at that, apologies for the length of the post/rant and for the lousy formatting....

MaxBax

Welcome to boards.ie/tcd misssunshine, feel free to introduce yourself or keep your anonymity.

Danger Bob

I'm liking this. Susan, you're a worthy foil. Dee, nice work too. However, I think you've done the two things I hoped no one would do. First of all, I was hoping this wouldn't become a big top trumps hack-off. Secondly, I was hoping to avoid it getting personal. But anyhoo, in response......

I think my "Trust me, we're better off in than out" comment re:USI was a bit poorly phrased. Didn't mean to sound quite so patronising. I'm not one of these "Well you elected me so I obviously know best" kinda people and if I came across that way, apologies. I've spent a big part of my year on a USI review group that started off saying USI was crap and then eventually said, "Well, it's not great but we're probably better off in." I haven't just been talking through my arse on it either, as I actually did my best to absorb all that USI could offer this year and to get a grasp of past years' work. Our two reports to our council did basically say that we're better off in than out, provided it professionalised a bit. I stand by that, whether old USI Officer Board members agree or not. Also, to agree with Susan, yes we should re-examine it every year. But, sure haven't we been doing that? I don't get what you're getting at.

Dee, I never said I wanted endless praise in the job. In fact, I don't care if no one recognises anything I've done. I'd just prefer, and I think it's fair, if people didn't HATE what I do if I'm doing good work, so if I can get to the core of that hatred early on, I'd hope to sort it out. Don't worry, I won't expect any Rob monuments in front square. As regards the USI dep pres thing, nice low blow, but your facts are a little off. It tried to get rid of dep pres and KEEP equality officer but to amalgamate it with DRO and LGBTRO because we felt that those fights weren't being fought properly in the current system. Yet again, I stand 100% by that idea and, unless I see something to convince me otherwise, I will hold on to my beliefs. I think different SUs have different needs and so need different balances between students and staff in their paid officers. I think TCDSU is pretty close to having it right but we thought USI was a bit further away, and, given the level of support for getting rid of certain officers at congress, I think we were right. I never suggested that USI get rid of student reps altogether so I really don't know what point you're trying to make.

Anyway, this is all INCREDIBLY off topic. If either of you want to carry on these secondary debates, feel free to drop me an e-mail (social@tcdsu.org) or just accost me in college some day, or start a "Why Rob is a dick" thread. I think Boards is crying out for one of them. I just started this thread to get to the root of why it's so acceptable to slag off the SU, rather than to get into personal arguments with people I respect over the workings of USI. Believe me, I've had enough of them already. I'd hope we can keep to the point. I'll post on the actual topic in a little while when I've properly woken up. I may still be cranky.

Dr Galen

i'm a normal run of the mill student in the college. I do the normal stuff that students do in college and then go home. I'm defo not an SU basher. So thats the intro outta the way.

I'm 3 years into my degree in nursing ( presently 1 of the biggest aculties, and in Sept will be the biggest afaik) and i've had contact about twice from the SU in that period. We've had promises galore at election time but nothing happens for one reason and another. I'm not apathetic in the least. I represent student nurses on a national level through our own trade union and have done so for 2 years. but i've never had a desire to get involved in the SU, for as an outsider looking in, its an "in-crowd" "we all know each other" clique.

Now, i'm not saying this is true!!! I've known students to go to welfare and edu with issues and get them sorted. someone said its not up to the SU to chase the students and to an extent i agree, but it does have to do something to highlight what it does. Maybe making a song and dance over books in the library or couches etc etc will start to change the tide. In my 3 years this apathy and bad feeling has existed on the ground, but i haven't seen the SU/Exec?whoever do anything to change this.
Maybe they have, but it hasn't reached the nursing building in D'Olier St or the Health sciences campus in James.

I'd love to be nicer about this, but come on, change my opinion, i'm open to it!

sorry about the length of post, i'd went on a rant there!:)

Agent Smith

It would appear that i cant talk without people presuming things.
Joe

MaxBax

agent smith wrote:

ALERT: SERRIOUS POST]

where can i get the free condoms?

Agent Smith

Go up to stephs Office and ask her, or ask me, i have some left over from freshers week

MaxBax

cool. if this works out i'll change my favourite su officer stance.

cuckoo

Danger Bob wrote:

I'm liking this. Susan, you're a worthy foil. Dee, nice work too. However, I think you've done the two things I hoped no one would do. First of all, I was hoping this wouldn't become a big top trumps hack-off. Secondly, I was hoping to avoid it getting personal. But anyhoo, in response......

Rob (=danger bob), i (=susan) haven't been too personal i hope in this thread, but re-reading your first post i'm still with my original unvoiced opinion on it, you were kind of spoiling for a fight. You type of being 'disgusted' with people's opinions. And fair enough, i like a good message board nitty gritty, point scoring, back and forth probably more than the next person. Also, it's a good time of year, as we're beginning to head into exam season a bit of distraction is nice.

Danger Bob wrote:

I think my "Trust me, we're better off in than out" comment re:USI was a bit poorly phrased.

We agree on something! Hey, i've done it too, read over something i've written and wondered where my brain had been disengaged to. So, i hope you can understand my gleeful devilment in playing top trumps on this one, you brought the exec hoodie into it yourself in your first post and made it a legit target.

Danger Bob wrote:

Also, to agree with Susan, yes we should re-examine it every year. But, sure haven't we been doing that? I don't get what you're getting at.

What i'm getting at is that if people are expressing misgivings they should be addressed openly, in as public a fashion as possible. For instance, the working group formed to look into it this year was elected at council, so all members of council knew what was going on. That's a good thing, so that there can be no impression left of the 'su clique' suiting themselves. My one caveat would be that the meetings weren't publicised to the entire SU membership - that way you'd have left yourselves like caesar's wife, above all complaints after the fact as you could respond with 'well, they were open meetings and anyone could have attended'.

Danger Bob wrote:

Anyway, this is all INCREDIBLY off topic. If either of you want to carry on these secondary debates, feel free to drop me an e-mail (social@tcdsu.org) or just accost me in college some day, or start a "Why Rob is a dick" thread. I think Boards is crying out for one of them. I just started this thread to get to the root of why it's so acceptable to slag off the SU, rather than to get into personal arguments with people I respect over the workings of USI. Believe me, I've had enough of them already. I'd hope we can keep to the point. I'll post on the actual topic in a little while when I've properly woken up. I may still be cranky.

Rob, i don't think boards is crying out for a Rob is a dick thread. That'd take away from valuable 'i'm in the arts block'/'i hate the rain'/'exams -arrgh'/'my favourite old skool computer game'/'i have a hangover' posting time.

If the SU is all of us, all students, which i agree with you on, then don't take any criticism personally. If people are moaning and groaning about the Education Officer next year, well, then you'll have a problem that you'll need to sort out, but if it's the usual level of 'what have they ever done for me?' look at the unions internal PR machine, and focus on getting good stuff done in your own role that can be broadcast to ppl.

Originally Posted by Danger Bob
WTF? Of course the SU claims to be for everybody. The SU IS everybody. I read a comment which I can't find now where someone said that members of Exec think the SU is just them but that's just not true. Everyone posting here is an SU member. Whether you like the idea of being involved or not, you are involved. I'm never gonna be a union Nazi and start dragging people into House 6 and forcing them to become class reps but I do expect students to give credit where it's due. Any student who says the SU does nothing for them is either lying or very short-sighted.

And, i've addressed this upthread, but calling members of the union that you will be paid to represent liars or short-sighted is going to get ppls heckles up and will dictate the tone of the subsequent debate.

So, rob, if you're willing to continue this:

why is tcdsu.org so crap?
why do you think so many ppl have agreed that a significant number of the Exec dislike TN?
where have you read stories of the SU not doing what they have done?

off topic/ anyone else read Agent Smith's post up there and think 'manifesto'?

shay_562

I kinda like the SU. I'm not involved with it at all (except for some by-proxy hackery), but I can see that I'm getting my money's worth (that €8 I paid at the start of the year has been more than given back in pens, water and condoms) and the tiny economist growing inside of me likes that. In general, they seem to be working hard for us to try and make college as smooth a ride as possible, and while I haven't actually had to go to an Education or Welfare officer with problems, my understanding is that they (ie, the positions in general) are pretty useful facilities to have. I don't think the SU needs to be as proactive as some people would like it to be. I don't expect wonderous, world-changing things from someone a year older than me working for a year in an environment where they don't always have a huge amount of power to achieve things; I think the main role of the SU is reactionary, to solve problems for students, advocate on students' behalf and maybe to try and improve small things around college (like the couches and water fountains, as has been said several times already).

There are plenty of problems with it as an organisation that have already been outlined. It's intensely cliquey and secretive (I wouldn't know anything that happened in there if I didn't come here). It has a bad habit of doing stupid **** one minute then trying to be a respectable organisation the next (the wands thing was funny as hell, but made the union as a whole look immature). Cuckoo's already pointed out how ****ty the SU website is, and why that's not acceptable (not to get into personal attacks here, but what exactly does the VP do on a weekly basis if not maintain the website? I can't imagine putting the Record together took the entire 6 months of college so far). But TBH, I'm not sure that the SU would be all that much more popular even if they rectified all these problems - a lot of people are just completely disinterested and will always be that way.

Rob, because David Quinn said something in a debate by the Phil does not make it famous. In fact, it makes it a horrific in-joke.

In Rob's defense, he repeated that same horrific in-joke (or some very similar variation thereof) at every single speech he made to BESS (and that was a lot - he knew where his support base was) and again at the dining hall hustings, so while "famous" might be overstating it slightly, at least it was spread around college.

gilroyb

shay_562 wrote:

I kinda like the SU. I'm not involved with it at all (except for some by-proxy hackery), but I can see that I'm getting my money's worth (that €8 I paid at the start of the year has been more than given back in pens, water and condoms) and the tiny economist growing inside of me likes that.

The union get a lot more money per student than that. They get money from the 'registration fee' if I remember correctly?

What is the joke Quinn used? I'm in BESS but didn't hear it. As I mentioned before no one came to any of my lectures.

Danger Bob

I'm back. Less cranky this time. Felt the need to fight my corner again. So...

(I apologise as this may be another LONG post...)

Cuckoo wrote:

why is tcdsu.org so crap?

I dunno. Ask the guys who made it. Or Tom. It's crap and that's a flaw but I can't personally respond to that question. However, what I can do is say that, as an incoming officer, I've spoken to the incoming dep pres about it and I'm confident that it'll be sorted out as soon as he can get his hands on the reins. In fact, you may be hearing about it fairly soon. I can also pledge to come through on my manifesto promise to add academic information on it and to create a database of summer placements on it but that's all I can really say on the matter. I can't speak for other people involved. However, I don't believe for a second that people hate the SU because the website's not as good as it could be. I might be wrong but that's just what I think.

Cuckoo wrote:

why do you think so many ppl have agreed that a significant number of the Exec dislike TN?

Because it was minuted that way. I can personally say that I have no real problem with them and most of the people I know from exec are the same, afaik. Even John who was minuted as making those comments actually speaks quite favourably of them. I don't exactly love everything they say about the SU but I think they're extremely necessary and MissSunshine, even though we disagree on the general exec feeling, I agree that the SU needs TN and TN needs the SU.

Cuckoo wrote:

where have you read stories of the SU not doing what they have done?

Cuckoo wrote:

calling members of the union that you will be paid to represent liars or short-sighted is going to get ppls heckles up and will dictate the tone of the subsequent debate

Might as well take those two together. I think the first one was a misinterpretation of what I said. I said I was still hearing stories of how the SU weren't doing what they actually do. I was referring to a couple of comments in this thread which suggested that the SU officers don't do the little things for students, when in fact, I think they do the little things quite well. On the second point, if a student says that the SU does nothing for them, they are incorrect. Simple as. If that student knows they are incorrect when saying it, they are lying and if they don't realise, then they haven't really examined the situation which, in my opinion makes them short-sighted (metaphorically of course, I'm not criticising myopia sufferers.) I stand by that. It probably doesn't read too nicely but it's true.

Aside from Rob vs Susan (just kidding), I actually really appreciate some of the candid responses here. This thread is not intended to offend and to reiterate an earlier point, I'm not trying to push for everyone to start loving the SU. It's simply that if I'm going to be involved in running an organisation, I'd like to know what it's problems are. I don't want to simply accept the disinterest and distaste towards the union, I'd rather see if we can try to change it. I know that the best way for me to do that would be just to get on with doing a good job come July but I think it's fair of me to ask these questions.

So, am I right in suggesting (from gathering the opinions I've read so far) that the main problems with the SU are...

...that there's a certain sense of a lack of inclusion? ie. the sentiments about it being a clique?

...that the officers are a little out of touch with the body student body?

...and that the levels of communication just aren't good enough?

Also, I think Awayinthehills put it quite well when she suggested that apathy is cool. I'd like to believe that she was wrong but I thinks she's probably right. SO...is it right for the SU officers to combat this or should we just leave it be? If students are happy to be apathetic, is it our place to try to change this?

Oh and finally...

Comhra wrote:

So what's wrong with the SU? Its' image! People are spending too long giving out about people badmouthing the union. Why don't they shut up and get on with their work! Forget about what people are saying, prove them wrong by accomplishing things! What was it my Mom used to say...sticks and stones...

Good point. But my issue isn't as much with the badmouthing as with the core problems. The badmouthing is obviously due to more deep-rooted problems which, unfortunately, don't seem to be reparable just by everyone doing a good job. That may sound silly but what I'm getting at is that if people have a fundamental dislike for something despite it being a benevolent force, then how can you expect these people to care when it does more good? My major concern would be if we ever need to truly mobilise the student body and they've all become so disconnected that they don't care. I'm well aware that if that happens then it's just as much the Sabbats' fault as the students' but that's why I'm here trying to work out the flaws. If I sound like I'm bitching about a few anti-SU comments, I'm sorry. I'm actually trying to find the root of the problem.

Before I go, gilroyb, what year BESS are you? And what subjects?

Anyway, over to y'all...

Danger Bob

Oh and...

MaxBax wrote:

danger bob are you the incoming education officer? i have to say i like your attitude. fair play.

Thanks. Always nice to hear it.

Cuckoo wrote:

off topic/ anyone else read Agent Smith's post up there and think 'manifesto'?

Indeed. And he spoke on a couple of welfare-motions at USI congress. Talk about early campaigning....

Danger Bob

Danger Bob wrote:

Because it was minuted that way. I can personally say that I have no real problem with them and most of the people I know from exec are the same, afaik. Even John who was minuted as making those comments actually speaks quite favourably of them. I don't exactly love everything they say about the SU but I think they're extremely necessary and MissSunshine, even though we disagree on the general exec feeling, I agree that the SU needs TN and TN needs the SU.

Thanks Rob, although you may differ on opinions, Exec has agreed on the minutes that I have produced every single week (with a few corrections here and there). They may be quite long, but they are a true and accurate record of what happened at each meeting, which means that if it is minuted, it happened. So if you have a problem with the minutes, you know my e-mail address, it being education@tcdsu.org - and personally, I'd prefer you talk to my face about any problems you have with the minutes, rather then post on a message board about them, you being a member of Exec who agrees to the minutes and all...

Comhra....

First of all Rob I do not want to set up a "Rob is a dick" thread. I don't think you are a dick, I think you are quite nice actually, maybe a little naive but nice all the same. What is it with incoming sabbats thinking I'm out to get them?

Second of all thank you so much for telling me I had done a "nice job" by being able to type my opinion and post it on the internet all by myself. I hope you will be as patronising when dealing with the president next year.

I really don't think cuckoo and myself have gone "off topic" here and I also think it inappropriate and unneccesary for us to have to contact you privately. We are merely joining a public debate, which you started. I don't have a problem with you Rob but if you start a thread with a post like that, all guns blazing, you have to be willing to accept some criticism. The world isn't just one big happy family with everyone liking everyone, people are going to say you are doing a bad job next year whether you are or not. You just have to accept it because that's the way it is.

I have to totally agree with cuckoo's point about the "open" and "public" USI review group meetings. I remember distinctly asking if they would be publicised and I was told yes. I never saw one poster and I was looking out for them. I wonder how many of this years incoming sabbats had the word "transparent" in their manifestoes this year. Just a thought to ponder.

Ok I've been accused of being a bit harsh (that's the censored version) in this thread but I have to say that I think my responses have been justified, they are after all my opinions. I have been involved in the SU since I started college, I've been a class rep for two years and I sat on exec last year. I come from the most SU unfriendly department in college, statisically we are the least represented department and that's because of apathy. I have asked students in my department why they don't want to get involved and why they don't vote and I respect and understand where they are coming from. Yes I've tried to talk them around but you know what worked much better than that? Just getting on with the job that I was elected to do, represent them. As a member of council and more importantly as a student I have every right to question the actions of any sabbatical officer elected to represent me.

MaxBax

HI TO ALL THE SU PPL THAT LURK HERE

/me waves

Barry Aldwell

Awayindahils wrote:

An accepted norm, freshers week i scoffed at my friend who was going to run for class rep

Yeah, but which one of us ended up as a class rep?!

(I decided not to run for class rep, I thought that someone with more free time could do a better job of it. I was proven wrong)

Danger Bob

Myth wrote:

Thanks Rob, although you may differ on opinions, Exec has agreed on the minutes that I have produced every single week (with a few corrections here and there). They may be quite long, but they are a true and accurate record of what happened at each meeting, which means that if it is minuted, it happened. So if you have a problem with the minutes, you know my e-mail address, it being education@tcdsu.org - and personally, I'd prefer you talk to my face about any problems you have with the minutes, rather then post on a message board about them, you being a member of Exec who agrees to the minutes and all...

Em...wtf? Yeah I agreed to the minutes. They were a true and accurate reflection of the meeting. John did say those things. As did other people who were minuted. Actually, I remember writing earlier in this thread that your minutes are quite accurate. And you should know by now that when I even have a silly little problem with minutes, I make sure and get them changed.

My point was that if you just read Exec minutes, you might get a very different view of members' opinions than if you know those people. The quite accurate minutes show that John said whatever about John Lavelle. And he did. However, I know from speaking to John a lot about TN that he has a lot of respect for their journalists. If people want to say that because they read the minutes from whenever, that they know that Exec hates TN, then I'm going to deny that. I don't hate TN, I don't think you do and I know, as a matter of fact that the majority of exec members don't. However, if someone just reads minutes, they might think otherwise. That wasn't a criticism of your minutes. It's just the way it is. You could write the world's greatest minutes and still you could never truly express the opinions of everyone involved in the meeting. Actually, I'm kinda shocked by that reaction.

Comhra wrote:

I have to totally agree with cuckoo's point about the "open" and "public" USI review group meetings. I remember distinctly asking if they would be publicised and I was told yes. I never saw one poster and I was looking out for them. I wonder how many of this years incoming sabbats had the word "transparent" in their manifestoes this year. Just a thought to ponder.

Yet again with a nice dig there. I did my best with those meetings and perhaps failed in making them as open as I'd hoped for them to be. However, a few people not actually on the group turned up to meetings and I immediately started including them in any group e-mails/texts sent out. Both yourself and Susan witnessed the fun of me trying to pin numerous busy people down to a time and place for the first meeting. That made it very difficult to publicise as often meetings had to be called at short notice. My fault but I did my best to include anyone who wanted inclusion. As for yourself and Susan, realistically neither of you had to look for posters to find out when meetings were on. If you'd wanted to participate, you could have. I believe you live with a member of the group and are going out with another. Both of these people have all my contact details also. While the job was mine to inform, anyone interested could have easily found out the info by contacting myself or other members. However, I get your point and I did actually apologise to the members numerous times that due to my workload as a student and a convenor, I didn't do a perfect job on it. While students like yourself could have taken part, it would have been very difficult for the average student to come along and throw in their two cents so I'm sorry. I assure you that I have learned a lot from that whole process.

However, I don't believe that you've joined a public debate. I think you've kinda created your own one. I asked a quite simple question. "What's wrong with the SU?" But your responses have been more to do with what's wrong with me or my posts. (Maybe me and my posts ARE what's wrong with the SU but I'd hope not.) You'd swear I'd started a thread entitled, "So what's so bad about eating babies?" Also, you seem to be deliberately misinterpretting my points. ie. suggesting that I was only in the job for praise and accusing me of being patronising for commending you on adding some decent points to the debate. If someone I'd never spoken to was taking me up wrong on these things, I'd be puzzled enough but I'd have hoped you'd have figured me out a little better than that even through our limited meetings. That's why I hoped that issues you had with me over our USI group could be handled a different way. I didn't want that discussion to take over this thread and thought that, as I know you, that we could talk out any such differences in a different manner.

Anyway, I'd rather this didn't become something to fall out over. For the record, even though you think I'm naive, I think you're alright really. If you think I was spoiling for a fight, then obviously my phrasiology needs to be worked on. I actually thought I was doing a good thing by trying to be proactive on the issue but if I'm wrong, then let's just kill this thread and I'll go back to the drawing board.

cuckoo

Danger Bob wrote:

Yet again with a nice dig there. I did my best with those meetings and perhaps failed in making them as open as I'd hoped for them to be. However, a few people not actually on the group turned up to meetings and I immediately started including them in any group e-mails/texts sent out. Both yourself and Susan witnessed the fun of me trying to pin numerous busy people down to a time and place for the first meeting. That made it very difficult to publicise as often meetings had to be called at short notice. My fault but I did my best to include anyone who wanted inclusion. As for yourself and Susan, realistically neither of you had to look for posters to find out when meetings were on. If you'd wanted to participate, you could have. I believe you live with a member of the group and are going out with another. Both of these people have all my contact details also. While the job was mine to inform, anyone interested could have easily found out the info by contacting myself or other members. However, I get your point and I did actually apologise to the members numerous times that due to my workload as a student and a convenor, I didn't do a perfect job on it. While students like yourself could have taken part, it would have been very difficult for the average student to come along and throw in their two cents so I'm sorry. I assure you that I have learned a lot from that whole process.

I don't know if it's a practical solution for the communication and publicity problems experienced by the SU this year for every student to start dating/moving in with members of committees that they would be interested in the working of.

And, while i'd like to think of myself as not being 'average' (and my mammy agrees with me, but that's kind of her job) i wonder at your usage of the term up there. Are ppl who are actively involved in the SU above or below the 'average' rank you've assigned the vast majority of students to? Or, is it just a term of phrase? So far the members of the SU who claim they see nothing being done for them are liars or short-sighted, now the rest of us are 'average'.

Yeah, this is the quoting, point scoring medium of an internet BB, but language matters. You suggest that we should ignore the minutes of exec minutes, because apparently what's said when members are in the 'official' role at a meeting is not a true reflection of them, but i disagree with that. I'd have thought with the awareness that such accurate minutes are taken that people would choose their words carefully to reflect their opinions.

Finally, i'd like to second Comhra on this - i'm also not out to 'get' anyone. I'm just a little frustrated, that i feel this year the communication, publicity and workings of the SU haven't been as successful as they might have been. There's been a definite lack of focus, for instance the registration fee 'campaign' - was the SU in favour of or opposed to that fee? I saw the posters and the euro note leaflets around the place and i don't know what the message was.

Stargal

I agree that the SU needs TN and TN needs the SU.

RAOTFLMAO!

Back to the dissertation...

Andrew 83

Just to start with I think it's very unfair to say most people who get involved in the SU get involved for the CV. I'm sure a lot of class reps do (witness the numbers who don't attend Council for instance) but I don't think those who get more involved do. I was pretty active in the SU, serving as a class rep, convenor, on committees, and even ran for election. I did none of that for my CV though, let's face it - what employer is going to care if you were involved in the SU? Furthermore in the Celtic Tiger Ireland they'd probably see it as somewhat of a negative thing.

In terms of what's wrong with the SU I don't think anything really is. While obviously I think some of the targetting of TN has been ridiculous and unfair I think everything's pretty much cool now. The problem is a more widespread one. I think everyone thinks everything going pretty well right now so don't feel the need to get involved and because they're pretty happy they also aren't really crying out for the SU to do anything.

Personally I'd rather if the SU did more on the boycott advertising and took a more active role in broader social issues, it's with pride that I helped get through a motion (by about one vote) to oppose the citizenship referendum. But maybe that's just me.

The most important challenge for the SU this year is to stop the Health Centre charges coming in. That's what really shocked me about those aforementioned minutes. I was really surprised just how many of the members of exec were in favour of charges coming in. Health care should be free, NATIONALLY not just in college. We don't have it nationally right now but it's essential we have it in college. I remember on Steph's manifesto when she ran she pointed out how few a percentage of students use the health centre yet now alot of exec are buying into the argument that students are somehow 'abusing' the system by going to it when their families could afford a GP (this is backed up by the failure to substantially try to attack the policy of not letting Dubs go to the health centre at the moment for some things). Using a system you have a right to isn't an abuse. Likewise agreeing with the college that there is too much pressure on the system is wrong - if the numbers using the health centre have gone up fair play to Steph and everyone else who's publicised the service. However I don't they've gone up that much. If there was a proper awareness of the health centre what's going to happen then? Should we feel that we should keep the health centre on the quiet (and away from those who might need it) just to satisfy s desire to keep the numbers manageable? No, it should be funded and expanded.

I remember a few years ago fees for the health centre were right on the verge of coming in but the SU fought well and kept them out. Then when I was on exec last year there was a big increase in the Registration Fee. When we got the breakdown of where the money was going almost none was going to the health centre and instead a lot was going to some very dubious places. The general view was that the college were intentionally underfunding the health centre so that there would be no choice but to introduce fees in order to keep it going. Once fees were brought in funding could then be cut further/removed as fees would sustain it. We all agreed that this needed to be fought tooth and nail. Yet where's the attack on this this year? Where the front page of the Record attacking it, where's the mass SU campaign etc? I put it in an editorial and we had that front page story but I haven't seen anything else on it. The test of the SU is these fees. If they go through that's what's wrong with the SU.

In an aside kudos to Rob, reading those minutes he made one of the best contributions and was clearly against fees. He asked when have you ever heard of a fee that went down or something along those lines. Once fees are in they're not going and they're not staying at the same price. We need to protect our 'free' services, the ones we're actually paying for through the registration fee!

Finally yes the UCD SU may do more than the TCD one in many ways, but that's because the college here provides so much. Over there the SU runs the Health Centre, luckily our SU doesn't have to as college get more involved in these things.

PHB

Please list for me what the SU does for me:

This is a serious question, list for me the positive effect it has on my college life
The only things I've got from the SU in my mind is:

The water fountains in the Arts block

SOL

So, USI, how best to waste 80,000 euro? anyone? I suppose you could start by spending 11,000 sending 22 people on a 5 day junket to some arsehole in down the country, to get locked and talk nonsense about urellevant things. Next you would want to pay a hefty subscription to keep the sabats in there usi office doing a large ammount of SFA. Any more questions? Oh yes of course any organisation willing to subscribe to this nonsense would obviously have do do other things in its spare time like say ban coke for speculative reasons while continuing to have more then the legal level of advertising for ciggarette companies in their shops, but hey whats wrong with the SU sure they're trying aren;t they?

gilroyb

gilroyb wrote:

The union get a lot more money per student than that. They get money from the 'registration fee' if I remember correctly?

Yep, the €8 mentioned below (or above!) is to do with USI, not the SU. The SU gets its money out of the registration fee, as do the other capitated bodies (CSC, DUCAC, GSU & Publications).

gilroyb

Andrew 83 wrote:

Personally I'd rather if the SU did more on the boycott advertising and took a more active role in broader social issues, it's with pride that I helped get through a motion (by about one vote) to oppose the citizenship referendum. But maybe that's just me.

Just as an aside, there was a case in the European Courts where a Danish worker successfully brought a case against being forced to join a union as it was a breech of his 'freedom of association' rights. I'm not so disheartened by the SU to bring a case against them, but the more political it is, the more likely that some up and coming law student will make their name by making the justifiable case that attending a government sponsored organisation shouldn't involve being forced into a political organisation. As long as the SU is not just a technical support service, it technically doesn't have the right to insist all students join it.