Why does 70% of Thread be about BJJ and MMA

Millionaire

I am curious!

Why is 70% of the thread on here about BJJ and MMA.

Now I think BJJ is an excellent sport. and I certainly want
to learn some in the future. plus it seems like great fun to
roll , from what I read on here.

To me from watching alot of MMA recently , I think it is
excellent bjj/ground stuff mixed with not so good strikes/MT etc.
personally I find MMA very boring to watch, guys rolling around on
the ground in the mount is ..yawn...to me boring!
naturally I have serious respect for the figthers involved,
and the training they do.

Is BJJ and MMA just a passing Fad.

I guess and probaly very correctly and from photos posted on there
that alot of guys in BJJ and MMA are kids in early 20s.

I remember back in the 80s ( I started MA in 84) and have consistently read MA mags monthly from all over the world since then.

and I have seen so many fads.

its was TKD. you used to see great debates which is better TKD Vs Shotokan. Choy Li Fut VS TKD, debates about this in the american mags.

Then it was JKD and in the 70s Bruce Lee. i think late 60s the fad was judo, followed by an early 70s karate fad, followed by a Kung Fu fad.

Then in the 80s was the Ninja fad, I even remember in Ireland many MA ers wanted into Ninja.

I just think its ashame that very few other MA s are on here. I never see any Shotokan people or karate people debating the kata.

Kung FU people talking about the various styles.

etc etc.

Every time I log on it all thread, where do you do BJJ, who is the best Bjj (as it we did not know its John, and total respect to him for being the top man).

Pride....again. and again and aaaaggggggiiiiiinnnnnnnnn.

It would be interesting if other in other MA s posted on here..

Personally. I was posting on the new irish MT forum and its refreshing to say the least positive answers, people giving each other training tips etc.

why cannot there be more of that on here.???!!????

do ya see my point!!!???!!

Quillo

Insecurity within MMA and BJJ and the need to defend themselves all the time perhaps ?

Probably people involved in Karate, TKD or other long established arts are just happy doing what they do and do not feel like getting in an extended argument with those how seem to place little value on that which is different.

Was a time when respect was a central MA precept.
Don't see much of it on here.

judomick

Millionaire, id say alot of the posters on here are bjj/mma based, so we obviously post about our art, its a good hub for info, then you get idiots making threads or comments like the one above this post and it opens a can of worms, so then theres all these threads started about your art is crap mines better, etc, etc

i find it funny also that Quillo talks about respect in MA but his first line was obviously an attack on another MA, agin putting all people who train certain styles in the same basket, alot of threads are born out of ignorance for other arts, i think 90% of the posters on this forum have been guilty of a little ignorance at some stage myself included, Quillo has shown he has this in abundance

Quillo

judomick wrote:

i find it funny also that Quillo talks about respect in MA but his first line was obviously an attack on another MA,

The respect comment is in a different paragraph to the one referring to specific arts. It was a general comment, not an attack on any particular art.

john kavanagh

Quillo wrote:

Insecurity within MMA and BJJ and the need to defend themselves all the time perhaps ?

lol maybe....but from my experience its usually people very new to the training methods found in MMA or BJJ etc that are posting all the time 'defending' these training methods - its that early excitement of having found something new, it passes. personally i'm very 'secure' in my training methods - i've no problem using my real name and will train with anyone who walks through my door:D

here's a few helpful tips though...

1. ignore threads with MMA/BJJ in the title
2. dont watch MMA if you find it boring - its full of poor strikers like duane ludwig, cro cop, mark hunt, jerome lebonar, pulver, silva et al:rolleyes:
3. stay on forums you find more interesting
4. start threads which you find interesting

hmmm maybe i could make this into a weekend forum-self defence course??:D

you will learn how to

1. walk with confidence into any forum
2. read any thread without feeling intimidated
3. learn SAS tactics for avoiding threads which dont interest you
4. knife defence while reading threads

only €500 and you get a certificate!

fad? time will tell - maybe new training methods will come about producing fighters that can actually fight in something very closely resembling an actual fight...who knows but i'll be the first to do it!

"Was a time when respect was a central MA precept"

ah respect, those pesky kids and their questions - no respect i tell yah!

Q - "hmm that looks interesting, could i see it working against a resisting opponent?"

A - "how dare you! wheres your respect!!"



......also bear in mind as far as i can tell there's about 3-4 fairly vocal advocates of MMA style training. 3-4 - considering there's probably about 1000 people training this way in the country its hardly the whole community on here!

judomick

Quillo wrote:

The respect comment is in a different paragraph to the one referring to specific arts. It was a general comment, not an attack on any particular art.

yeah and elvis never did no drugs

Millionaire

I was thinking...if you cannot beat them...join them! LOL

John, Can I have the Knife Defence while reading Threads please Certification...That I LIke!
but not the SAS, their bad boys... murdered alot of the neighbours back home that SAS did! ; - )

Seriously though, I am just trying to open up other thread and debates about other MA stuff.
It interesting to read about other MA stuff too...me thinks. Personally I was always interested
in Kung Fu , and maybe in later years when the old kness give out, I may take it up.

Right change of subject...

So which came first.. The Tiger or the Crane...or is there Dragon in there too!!!???!?

Roper

I love MMA, and it's great, and everything else is wubbish.

Seriously though, at the moment I'm like a born again Christian or recently dry alcoholic. I'm trying to convert everyone!:D I've been training in the dark arts about 2 years or so now, so I don't know of I'm new and excited like John says, but I can tell you that I'm 27, so I'm no kid but I won't be drawing my pension anytime soon either.

As Mick said, I think it so happens that there are a lot of guys from MMA/BJJ on here. That means that if I start a thread about something I'm interested in re.BJJ or MMA, then I will get a response and maybe a debate.

Unpossible

I just think its ashame that very few other MA s are on here. I never see any Shotokan people or karate people debating the kata.

Kung FU people talking about the various styles.

I think that when someone starts a discussion on katas or styles, other people will start to question the effectivness of these katas/styles. Some people will saying that these katas/styles are useless, that training should be alive. Then the practioners of these arts see this as an attack on their art & will try and defend it.
Then the worms will be released with the can nowhere to be seen, someone will remark how TMAers only care about pretty belts and nice white suits. Someone else will post a clip of one art being "owned" by another. Stories will be told of when X martial artist went training in an MMA gym and got beaten by everyone in there (even noobs). Crys will be made about how TMA's were forged in the field of battle and nothing is more "alive" than battles.
In the end the TMA people will probably get fed up of being told their art is ineffective and will just not bother to post about such things here anymore.



NOTE: this is all tongue in cheek

john kavanagh

Millionaire wrote:

Seriously though, I am just trying to open up other thread and debates about other MA stuff.

good stuff...why not start a thread on other MA stuff? instead you started ANOTHER thread on BJJ/MMA

loz

Millionaire wrote:

murdered alot of the neighbours back home that SAS did! ; - )

Dont set me off pal - you boys blew up my shopping centre

Millionaire

john kavanagh wrote:

good stuff...why not start a thread on other MA stuff? instead you started ANOTHER thread on BJJ/MMA

I did...within this thread...

So Tiger or Crane????

Dragan

Millionaire wrote:

Why is 70% of the thread on here about BJJ and MMA.

Why are the other 30% about why 70% of em are about BJJ?

dent

john kavanagh wrote:

i've no problem using my real name and will train with anyone who walks through my door:D

Most people that use internet forums don't use their real name as their nick and I'm a bit confused as to why you'd bring that up?

Unpossible

you boys blew up my shopping centre

MT kickboxers blew up you shopping centre? :eek:

judomick

unpossible, if someone does a style etc and says he loves katas forms etc, i say thats awesome its great he has something that fills a void in his existence, the my art vs your art is when the claims (spinning back flip thraot dim mak strike is the perfect move but ive never done it because its so deadly) are made and are then questioned by others, leading to cat and mouse Q&A, no worms or cans

i think anyone who does martial arts does so because they enjoy it, and i think thats awesome, something everyone here has in common, but curiosity is a great thing (not for cats though) and thats what drives us, in debates and training and everything that helps us progress and evolve

dent

john kavanagh wrote:

2. dont watch MMA if you find it boring - its full of poor strikers like duane ludwig, cro cop, mark hunt, jerome lebonar, pulver, silva et al:rolleyes:

and people with poor dress sense. Cro cop for example

Unpossible

says he loves katas forms etc,

well, I was working on the idea of people talking about their katas and their effectiveness and the thread then being hijacked. Then it would degrade into my art vs your art.

i think anyone who does martial arts does so because they enjoy it,

I agree, I like talking to people about various arts and comparing the various styles & techniques. I dont like my art vs your art conversations*



edited because I cant spell

Dragan

dent wrote:

Most people that use internet forums don't use their real name as their nick and I'm a bit confused as to why you'd bring that up?

I may be wrong here, but i think JK was simply responding to the remark about insecurity?

This is the net after all many people can claim pretty ridiculous things! For example we recently had a 120kilo uncrowned MT champ of Ireland on the board, which was funny while it lasted!

I think he was just saying that he just puts his name and his joy and belief in his art out there and people can think what they like.

I'm sure if people ask around about "who is the best rep for BJJ in Ireland" they will most likely say JK.

I had heard of him long before coming to this board and i was hardly deeply involved in the martial arts scene in Ireland or anything!

Baggio...

Can I also be certified in you SAS reality course thingey please...??? I'll give you 5000 million yo yo's.

Oh, can somebody show me how to do the "light sabre" 'ting as well, It's just so real (RBSD I tell you!!), and I could use that in the street to fend off rubber knives also?. Watch out rioters here comes me....

"buzzzzzzzzzhhhht" (can't quit get the sabre noise right)

PS - how much can I PAY somebody out there to get a "teachers Cert?:D "

john kavanagh

Unpossible wrote:

well, I was working on the idea of people talking about their katas

well as expressed by most people of functional training methods - hey talk about your kata all day long, start a thread on it and have fun:D

Unpossible wrote:

...and their effectiveness

ah now this is something different. effective at what? can we pressure test it? why would someone be upset if another person says 'hey lets see if that works against a resisting opponent'

when i'm teaching a submission/escape whatever i constantly have people saying 'hmm i dont think that would work'. but instead of going on about 'lack of respect' etc i compliment their critical thinking skills...and then prove the technique works by having them try to resist while i apply it, its that simple really.

Unpossible wrote:

...and the thread then being hijacked

if you mean people come on and question its validity then you've got to ask your self why does this bother you? and why post about somethings effectiveness in a martial arts forum if you dont expect some feedback/questions?

john kavanagh

Quillo wrote:

The respect comment is in a different paragraph to the one referring to specific arts. It was a general comment, not an attack on any particular art.

eh...what? english?? - lets see what you wrote...

"Insecurity within MMA and BJJ and the need to defend themselves all the time perhaps ? "

seems specific to me, mentions BJJ quite clearly. followed by

"Was a time when respect was a central MA precept.
Don't see much of it on here."

now you can talk rings around yourself all you like but thats what you said. kettle, pot, black etc

Unpossible

hey talk about your kata all day long, start a thread on it and have fun

We dont have katas in HanMooDo, the only time Ive come into contact with any sort of kata was when I did a few months of TKD with my old college, so I personally wont be starting any threads about katas.

I dont think I expressed myself properly in my first post.

effective at what?

Again Ive no real expirence of katas, maybe they help coordination or balance or something, I just know that if people on a thread are discussing katas ill read their opinions & try to form my own. I wont jump in telling them that they are out-dated or ineffective as these people will find that out (if its true) when they face people from other martial arts, or god forbid, get stuck in a street brawl.

sigh, I still dont think Im making the point I want to make/expressing my point properly
at least it makes sense in my head

columok

Unpossible wrote:

I wont jump in telling them that they are out-dated or ineffective as these people will find that out (if its true) when they face people from other martial arts, or god forbid, get stuck in a street brawl.

Well if you put something out there for discussion on a discussion board you'll more than likely find that if people find something in your post that needs clarification or feel it should be contested they will.

If I start a post in the football forum about my new method of football training that allows people with little or no athletic ability to be able to run around 11 professional footballers without the need for playing any football matches then they would, quite rightly, challenge what I'm saying. Would that be disrespectful?

Millionaire

Excellent debate! very lively!

just for the record, in my opening post, I did not
once in anyway critise BJJ or MMA, and said
it is a skills set I want to learn myself.

the fact that I find most MMA I see on TV boring to
watch, is a very personal opinion too.
I find things like Boxing, MT, and even see WTF TKD on tv
and like watching those sports.

and of course at this stage I've been watching MT fights
most weekends, in the area I live! Great stuff!

Unpossible

allows people with little or no athletic ability to be able to run around 11 professional footballers without the need for playing any football matches

Do people who teach katas really claim that its better than sparring? Or that it will give you an edge over someone who is fit?

Like I said earlier I dont have any real experience with katas, so these are genuine questions.

dlofnep

Why are 30% of threads about TMA?

Unpossible

Why are 30% of threads about TMA?

lol
I was half thinking of starting a thread with that title last night

Roper

Strange,
I remember a debate about 6 months ago where we all agreed that we couldn't put a label on what a TMA or MMA person was. Square one anyone?

Lemming

Why do 95% of people pull 90% of statistical figures out of their @rses?

70% of all people know that ... :rolleyes:

Millionaire

My question was not an attack on BJJ nor MMA.

Perhapes I made my point in an unclear way...

I was curious as to why there no not much contribution
from people involved in many of the different forms of MA
in Ireland, on this borad???

I think it would be nice if more people from other
systems posted?

Boru.

John that course sounds class! We could teach it after one of mine - great bonus for the students! Its a dangerous world in those forums, you can even get flamed....hmmmm...could I come up with an counter flaming course....no no I'd probably be attacked by the pc crowd....requires more thought.:D

Millionaire as regards you original post I'd love to do that, and I used to on a brilliant website called 24fightingchickens.com great forum with really intelligent discussion and brilliant articles on the nature and interpretation of kata, the meaning and understanding of tma concepts specifically Shotokan. That forum was where I found my love of TMA, where I really began to get the nature and tradition of my training.

Another excellent forum is the bujinkan one hosted by Alex Meehan for the memebrs of his dojo.

The fact is there are few Shotokan practitioners I know who post on the net about these sort of things - most often its because they're too busy training.
Years ago I used to post here a lot more frequently but I found I was just wasting my time...no body wanted to honestly appraise and analyse they're style.

This is the most I've posted in ages, I stick to the fitness forum and even then I only add in something when I feel I can genuinely contribute a point that hasn't been expressed. The major reason I'm posting here is beacuse of a conversation I got into with a genbukan practioner and it was one of the best discussions I've had on TMA in ages, he assured me the board was changing. I thought I'd give it another shot.

So here's one for you...the works and impact of Dr. Emer T Schmeisser on the interpretation and understanding of Shotokan Kata, in particular Bassai Dai ad the Tekki series....discuss...:)

Iss hogai

Millionaire

Boru. wrote:

So here's one for you...the works and impact of Dr. Emer T Schmeisser on the interpretation and understanding of Shotokan Kata, in particular Bassai Dai ad the Tekki series....discuss...:)

Iss hogai

actually I saw a documentary on traditional MA in Japan.

This old english guy who spent most of his life in Japan, doing MA,
was in it.

I had a theory that the Linear movements in Japanese MA, was due to the linear movements a farmer did, when hoeing up and down a field.

Serious!!!!

Millionaire

Are MMA'ers and BJJ heads the Boy Racers of the MMA world??? :eek:

LOL!!!!!!! hee hee

paul moran

Do people who teach katas really claim that its better than sparring? Or that it will give you an edge over someone who is fit

I don't claim that (I teach Kung Fu forms in my school)! Have you ever heard anybody say this? You ought to get them to clarify their reasoning behind such a quote.

Forms/Kata training will help you get fitter and can complement your other training methods!

Paul Moran

columok

The argument is often that solo or two person katas can help ingrain "muscle memory" and can give the edge in a street situation where sports training WILL NOT.

And we do ask for clarification- hence all the debates.

paul moran

And we do ask for clarification- hence all the debates.

Cool:D

But I've never heard anybody say that Kata training would stand up better than sparring! I was wondering who could have given him that impression, cause if people would just have some common sense they would see how ridiculous these kind of statements are!

The argument is often that solo or two person katas can help ingrain "muscle memory" and can give the edge in a street situation where sports training WILL NOT.

Your right, people spout some amount of bs trying to give some scientific basis to their training. KISS- Keep It Stupid Simple - it's a solo training method with aerobic, anerobic, plyometric, strength, endurance and flexibility benefits.

To say repetition of movements will ingrain "muscle memory" is correct! HOWEVER to say it helps with effective muscle memory when required in fighting is wrong!

If the forms contain an encyclopaedia of moves or techniques then you can try and use them while sparring, only then can you determine whether form training for fighting purposes is useful or not!

Damo W

Boru. wrote:

Millionaire as regards you original post I'd love to do that, and I used to on a brilliant website called 24fightingchickens.com great forum with really intelligent discussion and brilliant articles on the nature and interpretation of kata, the meaning and understanding of tma concepts specifically Shotokan. That forum was where I found my love of TMA, where I really began to get the nature and tradition of my training.

Not every one might share you general view on 24 fighting chickens or its creator, in some areas some might suggest it was quiet blinkered:)

Boru. wrote:

So here's one for you...the works and impact of Dr. Emer T Schmeisser on the interpretation and understanding of Shotokan Kata, in particular Bassai Dai ad the Tekki series....discuss...:)

I'll bite...:D When the attacks are stylised and only trained in a traditional landscape surely the follow up techniques bear no resemblance to what could be done outside the dojo and only have revelance within it....:p

Although his first book the 'Advanced Karate do manual' is excellent.....:)

I have not seen his 'Channan' book..;)

Damien

john kavanagh

paul moran wrote:

it's a solo training method with aerobic, anerobic, plyometric, strength, endurance and flexibility benefits.

yeah i've heard this line of reasoning before.....but why do no professional athletes use it then? why do basketball, boxers, football, MMA fighters etc etc rely on Olympic lifts, complex bar routines, wind sprints etc instead for improving attributes? the reasons are obvious, professional athletes have no emotional attachment to training methods - they are only interested in results.

i would put kata/forms in the same category as a gymnastic routine or a cultural dance. considering we have such little time free per week for training can you really afford to spend any of it on an activity that has such small returns as opposed to training methods which have much greater returns?

....and to make the point again - if your reason for doing them is because they are fun to you and you just enjoy them then more power to you! however if you are going to put forward the idea that they will help you in actual fighting ability then i'm going to ask for proof.

Boru.

I've always enjoyed kata. As a form of exercise its excellent for developing muscle control, poise, grace, timing and more. I've also found it to be at times, a relaxing form of moving meditation. The mental benefits as far as concentration and learning to overcome fatigue among others are also excellent. That said its not a form of active self defence training and in no way replicates actual conflict.

Paul you mention an interesting point regarding the nature of Kata as encyclopedia's....

Well to briefly expand on that and tie it to my earlier mention of Dr. Schmeisser, he holds that Kanku represents the index or contents of Karate and that should you wish to focus on any aspect, be it it close in fighting, distance, speed or strength defences etc, then simply consult the appropriate Kata from its presented move list.

For instance if you want to study fighting in a confined space, you'd consult the Tekki Kata's.

Its a really interesting way of looking at the Kata's and understanding there role in the development of the art.

As regards Damien's comments. I think you're quite right. A lor of what Rob said was very controversial and often highly opinionated. At times I agreed, at others I strongly disagreed. Regardless he always presented an intresting, researched and informed arguement. It made me think and reflect often on aspects of the art I took for granted. The way all good conversations should ;-)

Regarding the kata I agree with your comments whole heartedly. As I'm sure everyone is aware by now as a means of practical application I don't view the martial arts as a realistic form of training. Kata's and sparring for me would be too stylised to offer the type of experience RB would.

I would view Dr. Schmeisser's work as an intellectual interpretation of the kata. His ability to reverse engineer and re assess the movements is brilliant - in particular as noted in the series Advanced Karate Do, the inclusion of joint and arm locks not commonly taught in the standard Shotokan Class anymore. It's actually one of the factors that led to my cross training in locking arts like Aikido, Jujitsu, Hapkido and Bujinkna Budo Taijutsu. (At one point I had experimented with reconstructing kata using the prinicpals of the Bujinkan and found a new fluidity to traditional Shotokan Kata, in particular with Heian Nidan and Shodan that made it particulary relevant to CQ)

Of particular intrest from a physiological point of view was his association of breathing with specific muscular contractions in given stances and movements. Incorporating those ideas trippled my striking power, and it also led me to understand the "emotion" of the kata.

Iss hogai.

john kavanagh

in the interest of discussion (as its a discussion forum) and with the greatest respect i'll ask a couple of questions

Boru. wrote:

As a form of exercise its excellent for developing muscle control, poise, grace, .

ok

Boru. wrote:

timing and more

no. practicing set patterns on your own or against a co-operating partner will not improve your timing. how do you think it improves your timing?

Boru. wrote:

and learning to overcome fatigue among others are also excellent

really? i've never seen kata training bringing anybody into the anaerobic zone (where most real fighting occurs). do you not think complex lifting is a better conditioning tool for helping you overcome fatigue?

Boru. wrote:

That said its not a form of active self defence training and in no way replicates actual conflict

agreed - it in no way replicates actual conflict

Boru. wrote:

For instance if you want to study fighting in a confined space, you'd consult the Tekki Kata's.....At one point I had experimented with reconstructing kata using the prinicpals of the Bujinkan and found a new fluidity to traditional Shotokan Kata, in particular with Heian Nidan and Shodan that made it particulary relevant to CQ

maybe i've got this wrong but are you saying that kata is a good training method for training for actual conflict.

Boru. wrote:

I don't view the martial arts as a realistic form of training. Kata's and sparring for me would be too stylised to offer the type of experience RB would.

i think it depends on your definition of sparring;) if you are able to drop down to one of our thursday night MMA sparring sessions please do, it might change your mind about sparring being a realistic form of training:)

john

Millionaire

John about sparring...

Lets leave the ground, bjj or wrestling range out of the equation for this post.
ok? :-)

Me and alot of others on here. (various styles)

We would have been sparring (I am talking strikes range ok) hard and usually full or very near full contact level back in the 1980s. a few nights a week.

I know in SBG you call this Alive training etc. back then it was "you glove up now and spar, and no whinging like a sissy"

The contact was heavy, KO s and bloody noses, lips and black eyes were a common weekly part of life.

I was 16 in a kickboxing club where the average age was 23 - 24. and I sparred those "men", and be just a teen "boy" and got hit as harder and sometimes harder than anyone else. they wore runners to spar (no pads) so a Reebok in the mouth was a common happening!! I just to get my own back, as I was excellent at full blast jumping round house kicks to the head, and dazed the effers that way!! hee hee

This was going on 20 years ago, in mu gen do kicboxing clubs down the country , in Wado Ryu Karate clubs, and in TKD clubs.

It was full on , and hard, continous sparring . and no whinging allowed!!!

The point is , again leaving out the ground, cause back then we did not know about ground. This type of training was going on years before UFC 1, MMA, or SBG.

We knew sparring like this was very realistic back then and it still is and it did not take the birth of MMA to show us this.
Indeed it was often praticed in very real, and very alive MMA bouts on saturday nights after the local disco...growing up on
the border was a rough place, and alot of guys who liked fighting lived there. people were poor and it was unfortunately no
brian o driscoll blackrock college gig.

George Canning http://www.worldmugendouniversity.com/ who was my teacher for many years and is still a good friend , was the 1st to introduce this type of sparring into ireland.

This type of training has been around for years, its not some new discovery.

man I miss those days!!! ;-)

judomick

Millionaire 50/100/1000 years ago athletes from various arts (judo,boxing,muay thai,wrestling,pankration) sparred realistically or pretty much full on! this was long before you, me or SBG!? i dont think im getting the point of your post

Millionaire

[QUOTE=john



i think it depends on your definition of sparring;) if you are able to drop down to one of our thursday night MMA sparring sessions please do, it might change your mind about sparring being a realistic form of training:)

john[/QUOTE]

This is my point. With the greatest of respect to John...

It does not take going to SBG on a thursday night, to see is sparring realistic.

many of us on here have been doing it for years and years anyway.

dudara

I think Unpossible nailed it in one in his first post in this thread. Well said. TMA posts often do get hijacked in such a fashion.

I post very rarely here any more as all the discussion regarding aliveness, effectiveness and general posturing doesn't interest me.

Just train hard, enjoy what you do, and be realistic in what you expect from your training.

Damo W

Hi Boru,

Wow a kata discussion… I’m a little rusty its been so long

Just a few comments you might share your opinion with us…

Boru. wrote:

Well to briefly expand on that and tie it to my earlier mention of Dr. Schmeisser, he holds that Kanku represents the index or contents of Karate and that should you wish to focus on any aspect, be it it close in fighting, distance, speed or strength defences etc, then simply consult the appropriate Kata from its presented move list.

For instance if you want to study fighting in a confined space, you'd consult the Tekki Kata's.

Its a really interesting way of looking at the Kata's and understanding there role in the development of the art.

If Kanku holds all the ‘secrets’ why then do you need any more kata’s, what do different systems have different kata’s e.g.Sanchin in Goju-ryu, why do different system have significantly more kata’s than shotokan e.g. Sh1to-ryu…

Boru. wrote:

For instance if you want to study fighting in a confined space, you'd consult the Tekki Kata's.

Couldn’t disagree more… the more I see of kata the more I see the same techniques in each of them….

Boru. wrote:

Regardless he always presented an intresting, researched and informed arguement.

Fair point…

Boru. wrote:

I would view Dr. Schmeisser's work as an intellectual interpretation of the kata. His ability to reverse engineer and re assess the movements is brilliant - in particular as noted in the series Advanced Karate Do, the inclusion of joint and arm locks not commonly taught in the standard Shotokan Class anymore.

Wow… again if he had reversed engineer them to deal with modern attacks in a non stylised way.. That might have been ‘brillant’, reverse engineering them to deal with reverse punches by using a lock etc. is only one step up from JKA standard bunkai. IMHO

Boru. wrote:

I had experimented with reconstructing kata using the prinicpals of the Bujinkan and found a new fluidity to traditional Shotokan Kata, in particular with Heian Nidan and Shodan that made it particulary relevant to CQ)

Cool… do a two person drill, remove one person, have the remaining person do the drill… ta da ‘Kata’

Obvious over simplification or is it?

Cheers

Damien

Millionaire

1980s kickboxing!!! Mu Gen Do style.

Very Alive!!!

More on http://www.worldmugendouniversity.com/gallery/gallerygroup.htm

Valmont

Actually you are very wrong about your 'realistic sparring'

Let me ask you what happened when you or your opponent fell to the ground? Or clinched? You would stand back up.

You can't just say "forget about ground, BJJ, and wrestling for the moment". Some punk on the street won't think twice about pulling your reebok kicked head into a headlock, what will you do then? I don't think your jumping roundhouse kick would do any good.

Thats the whole point of MMA, it deals realistcally with situations that other (most) TMA's refuse to acknowledge as a legitimate form of combat. (BJJ)

John was right when he said it is usually new people to the sport that get all up like I am now, but I will admit to it. I did TMA for close to three years and in my eyes the katas and that sort of thing are thoroughly pointless, I could do Chinto and Godan and the rest of them and they showed me nothing about combat at all.

I don't like insulting someones M.A of choice, I think everyone is entitled to do whatever they want without being reproached on boards and I have full respect for all martial artists. But a certain group of you TMA'ers get all uppity coz there is a big group of MMA practitioners on boards and YOU start the threads questioning our Style (Quillo's - MMA sport or self defence thread) and countless others. When has one of the MMA population on boards started a thread questioning the methods of TMA? It only ever happens (since I joined anyway) in defence to some of your scathing posts.

I joined boards to have some discussions about technique and events relating to my MA of choice with other practitioners and so far all I have come across is delusional, insecure TMA people. Jumping on any perceived weakness in the methods of MMA. Have some respect and if you are that insecure about your antiquated and outdated styles then don't read any threads that might scare you. Ignore the BJJ threads, avoid the MMA threads, Heck why not start your own forum?

regards, Emmet Clarke

john kavanagh

Millionaire wrote:

This is my point. With the greatest of respect to John...

It does not take going to SBG on a thursday night, to see is sparring realistic.

many of us on here have been doing it for years and years anyway.

thats what you really got from that? that i was making the point you will only find realistic sparring in SBG?

i have many many MANY times said before that Aliveness and good old sparring is certainly not new and defo not property of SBG. many many times i've said you'll find the same training methods in most good judo, wrestling, boxing, thai etc training camps.

the point was he said sparring was an unrealistic training method for fighting. i said it depends on what you call sparring because i would agree that semi-contact points sparring is not a realistic training method for fighting. however sparring such as found in boxing/thai gyms is much more realistic....allow the clinch range and it gets more realistic....allow the ground too and its even more realistic.

again thats why i said it depends on his definition of sparring - never did i say that the only place to find realistic sparring is in SBG. can you see the distinction?

...on another note reading your post about your experiences of sparring

"The contact was heavy, KO s and bloody noses, lips and black eyes were a common weekly part of life."

"I sparred those "men", and be just a teen "boy" and got hit as harder and sometimes harder than anyone else."

"It was full on , and hard, continous sparring . and no whinging allowed!!! "

to be frank this is a dumb training method that i think appeals only to either people who are not too bright or have some weird desire/fetish to be hurt. if anyone was to spar like this in my place they would put out the door - fast. i think its the sign of poor coaching and very dangerous practice if people are being KO'ed regularily in training. the idea that this is somehow 'macho' or makes you a 'man' is very childish and immature imo.

with good coaching and intelligent training methods you can train 'dangerous' sports such as full contact striking, MMA etc without getting hurt.

Millionaire

Your missing my point Emmet Clarke complete...

re read my post and think about it?

No one said John was wrong.

what makes me wrong?

What I said was , many other clubs have been sparring very
realistic for years and years.
As I said not many people did ground much ground back then..

We were training in an alive, healthy sport format, with
non complient sparring partners, who did as hard as they could.


Also we were all very very competant boxers, as in full contact kickboxing.


No one said BJJ was no good.. in fact its a goal of mine to learn bjj too!

Chill out dude and relax.

Do not worry my friend, about what I would do on the street.
I am well experienced in that area, believe you me.



As for now, I probably do more Clinch work in a week than
you imagine...as I live beside a Muay Thai camp in thailand
where 2 hours of clinch is done daily.. : -)

Gerry Nolan

Millionaire

john kavanagh wrote:

...on another note reading your post about your experiences of sparring

"The contact was heavy, KO s and bloody noses, lips and black eyes were a common weekly part of life."

"I sparred those "men", and be just a teen "boy" and got hit as harder and sometimes harder than anyone else."

"It was full on , and hard, continous sparring . and no whinging allowed!!! "

to be frank this is a dumb training method that i think appeals only to either people who are not too bright or have some weird desire/fetish to be hurt. if anyone was to spar like this in my place they would put out the door - fast. i think its the sign of poor coaching and very dangerous practice if people are being KO'ed regularily in training. the idea that this is somehow 'macho' or makes you a 'man' is very childish and immature imo.

with good coaching and intelligent training methods you can train 'dangerous' sports such as full contact striking, MMA etc without getting hurt.

Agree with you on 1st point John, yes, I mis interepted your post well, and yes you said before places other the SBG do it.. I got a bad memory..too
many punches to the head!!! LOL...

which brings me to the 2nd point..

If you do realistic sparring you are going to get injured. and you are going to hit and get hit....hard!!!!

Thats realistic sparring to me.

do I do it all the time... no!!!!!

though i have done it consistently for a good few years in 2 periods of my life.

did I enjoy it...not always!!! it was the done thing back then.

Yes the coaching was irresponsible at times. going to school with a ringing the next day at 16 is not a good idea.

Its the ultimate in Alive training and Resisting sparring partners though!
you got to give me that point at least !