Charlie Haughey, Should you go to his funeral????

JohnnySideburns

Hi,

I was wondering what are peoples attitudes about attending Charlie Haughey's funeral should he pass away in his present state of decline.

I would go myself but not because of his contribution to Irish society. I very much admire his rise from the streets of Donnycarney to the top job in the country and his (previous) home in Kinsaley. His amazing comeback after the Arms Trial is inspirational and also is his fighting spirit in defeating 4 challenges to his leadership of Fianna Fail.

As someone who was governed by him, I despise him. I work in an IFSC company and am doing quite well because of his "turn the economy around" policies of the late 80's and early 90's. However, he does not deserve an ounce of gratitude for it. The only reason he turned the economy around in 1987 to 1989 was because his Government were in a minority position and Garret Fitzgerald (before resigning) left a regime of forcing Haughey to take drastic measures to turn the economy around or be removed from office. His backing of the IFSC was as much for his benefit as the rest of the country's. In this light, I would go to his funeral for the same reason that he went to Erskine Childers' funeral in the early 70's "TO MAKE SURE THE F*CKER IS PLANTED"

WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS????

dahamsta

The more people turn up for his funeral, the more the media will call him a "statesman", a label the thieving scumbag doesn't deserve by any stretch of the imagination. Unless you wear a placard saying "Just Making Sure The F*cker Is Planted" of course. I'd pay to see a procession with a few of them in line...

You wear one of those, and I'll wear one saying "Where's The Grave, I'm Dying For A P*ss?"

Elmo

There are certain good things that Haughey did and there are certain bad things that he did.

1 Wrong + 1 Right != (does not equal) 1 Right

Does it equal one wrong well that is up to you.

I amn't a fan of state funerals I would very unlikely to turn up to anyones funeral unless I knew them or their family or a close friend.

I don't understand the obsession people have with going to political funerals.


Also I wouldn't give all the credit to Garett Fitzgerald. (ever)

JohnnySideburns

(Deleted Message)

Akrasia

well, the main reason he rose to power was because he had the integrity of a Hyena, which is something not particularly admirable in my opinion.

SCULLY

Just out of interest - what are the criteria for a state funeral - i.e.
do ex an taoiseachs and presidents automatically get one or are they decided upon by the government of the day ?

Victor

Holders of high office are entitled to state funerals. It is for them to decide, not the government of the day.

Of course, it is the government of the day that sets the budget.

Military officers are entitled to military funerals and as a former FCÁ lieutenant, Haughey would be entitled to that too.

I wonder will they name the Port Tunnel after him - a big hole that just swallows money.

gandalf

Given that should have passed away rotting in prison there is no way I would attend his funeral.

rubadub

Does the taxpayer foot the bill for a state funeral. Don't want to be swindled out of more money by him.
Pig fodder

The_Minister

He did good stuff as well as bad so I wouldn't take away from his funeral.

Victor

rubadub wrote:

Does the taxpayer foot the bill for a state funeral. Don't want to be swindled out of more money by him.

We're stuck for it.

Firespinner wrote:

He did good stuff as well as bad so I wouldn't take away from his funeral.

Like?

Sponge Bob

Victor wrote:

Military officers are entitled to military funerals and as a former FCÁ lieutenant, Haughey would be entitled to that too.

correct, but only the colour party to fire shots, 4 of them with rifles IIRC and thats quite enough of an investment in Haughey by the people .

I wonder will they name the Port Tunnel after him - a big hole that just swallows money.

LOL

CJhaughey

I will be attending.

dahamsta

Sponge Bob wrote:

correct, but only the colour party to fire shots, 4 of them with rifles IIRC and thats quite enough of an investment in Haughey by the people .

I'd be willing to invest in a few rifles in Haughey's honour right now, as long as I have a say on how they're aimed.

(I'm a pacifist by virtue of cowardice, but every philosophy has it's exceptions, right?)

Victor

CJhaughey wrote:

I will be attending.

Do you have a choice?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

CJhaughey wrote:

I will be attending.

As long as you don't breathe

segadreamcast

Victor wrote:

Do you have a choice?

Bravo .


...No, I won't be going near his funeral. He did some good things (RE: The economy - to answer your question Vic) but such moves, as stated, were motivated by personal greed. He has, along with others, tarnished politics and politicians in this country.

Victor

He did some good things (RE: The economy - to answer your question Vic) but such moves, as stated, were motivated by personal greed.

Pretty much everything he did either lined his pockets or the pockets of those around him. The other things he did got people killed.

dahamsta

NoelRock wrote:

He has, along with others, tarnished politics and politicians in this country.

The ones that couldn't do with a dollop of Brasso of some size could be counted on the fingers of one hand on a one-fingered man.

segadreamcast

Victor wrote:

Pretty much everything he did either lined his pockets or the pockets of those around him. The other things he did got people killed.

So... you agree with me then? It'd probably be easier to say, "I agree".

jamesozzie

god i really loathe that evil man.

The only "good" things he done for the country were done to benefit himself. He has the wealth now to support his family for generations and it all came from taxpayers money.

And I really hope his funeral doesnt come out of taxpayers money, that would really be the cherry on the cake.

As for attending his funeral - not a chance. The day he dies will be a joyous occasion. I might organise a bit of a rave on his grave if anything if anyones interested?

The_Minister

Victor wrote:

Like?

For example, free public transport for pensioners.

Hagar

Given the chance I would attend. Just to make sure the fucker was dead.

DublinWriter

I'd go, depending on the jigs they'd be playing.

At least his passing will free up three uniform guards from static duty and a state driver and Merc.

Dub13

I grew up in Donnycarney and their are a lot of people from the area who will not hear a bad word said about him.Apparently he was a great TD and could and did get things done in hours for his constituents,looking back now thats probably because civil servant's were scared **** less of him.

DublinWriter

Dub13 wrote:

I grew up in Donnycarney and their are a lot of people from the area who will not hear a bad word said about him.Apparently he was a great TD and could and did get things done in hours for his constituents,looking back now thats probably because civil servant's were scared **** less of him.

That sums Irish politics up to a tee...you need to have the head of the country in your backyard to get your potholes filled.

Parish-pump politics at its very worst - no wonder we have an exuse for local government in this country.

thejuggler

I heard a rumour that CJ died this afternoon. Will be announced later or tomorrow.
Any confirmation?

Zebra3

I hope he dies screaming.

Interesting to see all his old cronies at it. All those sidekicks (who are now in government) of his who never :rolleyes: wondered how he finaced his lifestyle.

segadreamcast

thejuggler wrote:

I heard a rumour that CJ died this afternoon. Will be announced later or tomorrow.
Any confirmation?

EDIT: Apparently not. Supposedly he's recovering.

SeanW

CJhaughey wrote:

I will be attending.

I would imagine so ...

Rockdolphin

I just hope Charlie Haughey is at the funeral, you can never trust that man ! Whats the betting he might kick the bucket on April the 1st

Seems so long ago now when I used to see the donkey in the Paddy's Day parade with a sign on it saying 'Charlie Haughey's Ass' Those were the days

Snickers Man

One word sums up Haughey: Coward

He could quite clearly see that belts needed to be tightened, spending needed to be cut, hardship had to be endured---but not by him. Keep on sending the money for the Charvet shirts lads.

Coward.

He could clearly see that this was the program for gorvenrment that was needed in 1987 but didn't have the guts to stand for it. So he campaigned on a pie-in-the-sky manifesto, got elected and then appointed hatchet man McSharry to slash the health service budget knowing that Fine Gael wouldn't oppose him.

Coward.

He was involved in the movements leading up to the Arms Trial yet when it was over he left others to carry the can. He, after all, had his career to think about.

Coward.

He was quite able to play the green card for political gain, even getting his PR teams to hint (in Magill Magazine in the early 1980s) that all the Haughey bashing in the media was being orchestrated by the British. Yet his government provided much closer co-operation with the British on border security than Coalition governments ever did and Maggie Thatcher makes it quite clear in her memoirs that she much preferred Haughey to Fitzgerald. (A case of aithnionn cuireoig, cuireoig eile if ever there was one)

Coward.

I don't buy this 'he did great things for the country' mallarkey. I think if anything McSharry, who put his reputation on the line to force through the cuts in the late 1980s, or Dukes who eschewed temporary political gain to support those cuts while in opposition deserve more credit. Haughey manipulated things so that if it all went pear shaped he wouldnt get any of the blame (more cowardice) and yet there are some people who want to give him the credit now. Amazing.

Diorraing

I'd consider attending. He was a good politician before he became corrupt. His involvment in the arms crisis is something to be proud of and he was largely responsible for the economic turnaround in the late 80s (not Garret Fitzgerald!) which paved the way for the Celtic Tiger.
Having said that though, his corruption is a very bitter pill to swallow. Such talent wasted. Also, he opposed the Anglo-Irish agreement which was a bit silly. I'll have to balance the good and bad of his career before I decide.
He should have a state funeral, however, I think its tradition for all Taoisigh. Even de Valera gave Eoin O Duffy a state funeral because he was a garda commissioner though he despised the fascist. If no-one turns up to his funeral, fine, but he should at least have that dignity

Snickers Man

Diorraing wrote:

I'd consider attending. He was a good politician before he became corrupt. His involvment in the arms crisis is something to be proud of

If you are of that opinion,that's one thing but the way he dived for cover and let others carry the can cannot be something you admire, can it?

and he was largely responsible for the economic turnaround in the late 80s (not Garret Fitzgerald!) which paved the way for the Celtic Tiger.

Cobblers! Like I said: hardship was fine as long as he and his closest cronies didn't have to endure it. Ansbacher accounts for them; closed hospitals for the rest of the population.

The people who deserve the most credit for the Celtic Tiger are those who lived and worked and paid their taxes (mostly) in Ireland throughout the 1980s. (I'm not one of them). Haughey in opposition stymied and obstructed any attempts at controlling the public finances which had largely gone out of control on his and Jack Lynch's watch. Then having campaigned against the brutality (sic) of the coalition's policies in the 1987 he implemented them all and then some when he got into power.

Some might say "Ah sure Jaysus isn't he the cute hoor? Ye want to watch that Haughey. He's a fly boy but sure isn't he a great man all the same?"

In which case I can only say Bog off down to South Kerry and vote for Jackie Healy-Rae.

dbnavan

Even though i can not stand the man, am 100% against FF, I cant stand the sight, or sound of him. He made a joke of his office, held two fingers up to the judicial system. He is still someones husband, father, uncle, grandfather, and he is about die, apperently.

So lets just respect that on here. If he gets a poor turn out at his funeral that will be message said! And No he shouldnt get a state funeral IMO.

Akrasia

Ken Shabby wrote:

The ones that couldn't do with a dollop of Brasso of some size could be counted on the fingers of one hand on a one-fingered man.

so thats joe higgins then?

you might not agree with his politics, but you must admit, he has a lot of integrity

JohnnySideburns

Diorraing,

I wasn't giving Garret Fitzgerald full credit for turning the economy around in the late 1980's. I was just stating that before Garret Fitzgerald resigned, he implemented a regime of "squeezing Haughey by the balls" on seeing that he was in a minority Government position after the 1987 election and could be removed from power by the opposition, if they so wished. While this point is debatable, the fact that Fianna Fail went into the 1987 election vigourously campaigning against health budget cuts and then mysteriously turning around on this on getting into power, does contribute to this argument. If Fitzgerald (and Dukes), hadn't done this, it's arguably quite likely that Haughey wouldn't have turned the economy around.

Snickersman, this is similar but not the same as your argument. What do you think?????

Snickers Man

JohnnySideburns wrote:

Diorraing,

I wasn't giving Garret Fitzgerald full credit for turning the economy around in the late 1980's. I was just stating that before Garret Fitzgerald resigned, he implemented a regime of "squeezing Haughey by the balls" on seeing that he was in a minority Government position after the 1987 election and could be removed from power by the opposition, if they so wished. While this point is debatable, the fact that Fianna Fail went into the 1987 election vigourously campaigning against health budget cuts and then mysteriously turning around on this on getting into power, does contribute to this argument. If Fitzgerald (and Dukes), hadn't done this, it's arguably quite likely that Haughey wouldn't have turned the economy around.

Snickersman, this is similar but not the same as your argument. What do you think?????

Pretty much.

SCULLY

dbnavan wrote:

Even though i can not stand the man, am 100% against FF, I cant stand the sight, or sound of him. He made a joke of his office, held two fingers up to the judicial system. He is still someones husband, father, uncle, grandfather, and he is about die, apperently.

So lets just respect that on here. If he gets a poor turn out at his funeral that will be message said! And No he shouldnt get a state funeral IMO.

Good post - I agree 100%

is_that_so

According to Shakespeare there are seven ages. Most of Haughey's best ages were before almost all of the posters here were born and at a time when this country was mired in the distant past. Go read about it properly before passing judgement. For me he tainted his legacy. He had ability and talent but he became corrupt. The bad outweighs the good but at least I know what the good is. TBH some posters here hate Haughey because they should.
But I agree with respect. Go or don't go, but don't tell the world why you won't go. I am not sure that anyone really cares.

Victor

Diorraing wrote:

he was largely responsible for the economic turnaround in the late 80s (not Garret Fitzgerald!) which paved the way for the Celtic Tiger.

To paraphrase Clinton "Its demographics, stupid."

No, I'm not trying to insult anyone.

JohnnySideburns

(Deleted Message)

JohnnySideburns

Diorraing wrote:

I'd consider attending. He was a good politician before he became corrupt. His involvment in the arms crisis is something to be proud of and he was largely responsible for the economic turnaround in the late 80s (not Garret Fitzgerald!) which paved the way for the Celtic Tiger.
Having said that though, his corruption is a very bitter pill to swallow. Such talent wasted. Also, he opposed the Anglo-Irish agreement which was a bit silly. I'll have to balance the good and bad of his career before I decide.
He should have a state funeral, however, I think its tradition for all Taoisigh. Even de Valera gave Eoin O Duffy a state funeral because he was a garda commissioner though he despised the fascist. If no-one turns up to his funeral, fine, but he should at least have that dignity

Diorraing,

I also have news for you when you say "His involvment in the arms crisis is something to be proud of". In the years leading up to the Arms Crisis, Charlie Haughey never made any public statements in relation to Northern Ireland. It was quite odd that he as Minister for Finance got involved. A highly likely explanation behind it was that Neil Blaney was gaining influence in a certain niche of Fianna Fail by trying to import arms. Haughey got involved to prevent Neil Blaney getting too far ahead in the race to succeed (or even overthrow) Jack Lynch as party leader. The whole move was only motivated by his leadership ambitions and not to help the plight of the Nationalist cause.

Diorraing

JohnnySideburns wrote:

Diorraing,

I also have news for you when you say "His involvment in the arms crisis is something to be proud of". In the years leading up to the Arms Crisis, Charlie Haughey never made any public statements in relation to Northern Ireland. It was quite odd that he as Minister for Finance got involved. A highly likely explanation behind it was that Neil Blaney was gaining influence in a certain niche of Fianna Fail by trying to import arms. Haughey got involved to prevent Neil Blaney getting too far ahead in the race to succeed (or even overthrow) Jack Lynch as party leader. The whole move was only motivated by his leadership ambitions and not to help the plight of the Nationalist cause.

Maybe so and his performance in the trial was shameful.

clonycavanman

They say he dodged paying a million pounds (in old money you understand) of income tax, and that was wrong. But we got more than a million pounds of laughs out of Charlie, and he gave us something else that was very scarce in the 70's and 80's; self respect. He was one of us, no holier than anybody else, and he was the Taoiseach by our choice, and his own merits ; and without any foreign sponsor. He made mistakes, and the man who made none never made anything. He was perhaps 'fortunate in his enemies' as one columnist observed. I hope he's well, and lives long enough to see his career put in perspective and his reputation repaired.

Wouldn't go because it's in Dublin and that's a bit of a haul. Would go if it was on in the local town though.

Unlike some here, particularly 'I hope he dies screaming' comment, I don't confuse myself with God and pass judgements on people's souls. I mean, Zebra3 and Jamesozzie mustn't know where to start dancing what with all the graves of nasty people around the country. Interesting morality, taking money is wrong (undoubtedly), but someone's passing away hilarious. That's one bizarre set of principles there folks, putting money on a higher pedastel than life itself. Maybe you are not so unlike the man whose death will bring you so much happiness...

Cronus333

jamesozzie wrote:

god i really loathe that evil man.

The only "good" things he done for the country were done to benefit himself. He has the wealth now to support his family for generations and it all came from taxpayers money.

And I really hope his funeral doesnt come out of taxpayers money, that would really be the cherry on the cake.

As for attending his funeral - not a chance. The day he dies will be a joyous occasion. I might organise a bit of a rave on his grave if anything if anyones interested?

My grandparents did that when de Valera died. they have framed photos and all! its hilarious!

Cronus333

Cronus333 wrote:

My grandparents did that when de Valera died.

They danced on de Valera's grave? And your family thought it hilarious?

That's just very very strange and twisted behaviour by any standards. I mean, I might not get too upset about Beal na Blath and the fact that Collins lost what small bit of brain matter he had around there, but I don't go around beaming from ear to ear.

My grandparents taught me respect...

Cork

CJH achieved much - Social Patnership, IFSC, Temple Bar, Government Buildings etc.

Even the bus passes for the OAPS - this is being brought in to the UK by 2008. CJH was a superb Minister & a good Taoiseach.

Credit where it is due.

He took money like many other politicians.

He got loans written off - which was not uncommon either.

His achievements were many - that is not to say that he had no flaws.

Victor

Deleted User wrote:

That's one bizarre set of principles there folks, putting money on a higher pedastel than life itself.

Well it would be judging the man based on his own principals.

Victor

Victor wrote:

Well it would be judging the man based on his own principals.

Yes, but can I take it that in the interests of consistency that the people who would dance on Charlie Haughey's grave stand up at their neighbour's funeral and shout - 'we should dance, that b*****d beat up his wife/drank all his money/made a false insurance claim/did nixers while on social welfare etc. etc.'. I bet they haven't. But then again talk on a website is so cheap of course and double standards are everywhere.