Expandable Batons Legal?

coyote6

Are discreetly carried (in a bag etc.) expandable batons (ASP etc.) legal to carry in Ireland?

Bam Bam

Army bargains sell them for €40 to the general public, so I would say that they are legal.

Quillo

As far as I know, carrying any "weapon" is illegal in Ireland.

The only things you might get away with carrying are items which have a legitimate other use which can, if necessary, be used as a weapon. This might possibly include: a small Maglite/Surefire torch, one of those clever Kelly Warden "Travel Wrenches", maybe a Kobutan keychain etc...

Not much in the way of plausible deniability with an ASP baton !

Raiser

Dunnes Stores sells 12 inch carving knives, if you happen to have one in your handbag at 2am on a Sat. night while q'ing in McDonalds its not going to be very legal AFAIK

Roper

AFAIK.
Its legal to own one but illegal to carry one. A bit like those deadly Black-Widow catapults you used to be able to get.

As raiser said, context baby. What are you going to tell a cop if you've just hit someone with it?

Scramble

Have a read of section 9 of the Firearms and offensive weapons act 1990. The most relevant bit for most people is the following:

(4) Where a person, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse (the onus of proving which shall lie on him), has with him in any public place—

( a ) any flick-knife, or
( b ) any other article whatsoever made or adapted for use for causing injury to or incapacitating a person,

he shall be guilty of an offence.

Obviously subsection 4(b) is incredibly broad, this is deliberate. It could conceivably include anything that you could use to harm someone with, from a stanley-knife to a brick.

A lot of things which would be illegal to carry under Section 9 are not necessarily illegal to own. Obviously if this wasn't the case then yes, Tesco wouldn't be able to sell people kitchen knives and whatnot. As someone said above, its a matter of context.

However, there is also a seperate list of things which you are specifically banned from making, selling, hiring, loaning or importing. These are found in the Offensive Weapons order 1991. Covers things like machetes, throwing stars, butterfly knives, kubotans and also:-

( k ) the weapon sometimes known as a telescopic truncheon or telescopic billy, being a truncheon which extends automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to its handle;

pma-ire

As a person who was one of the first people in Munster to sell them among other things pointy and whacky!!

You can own anything you want!

You can carry anything you want!

Once you don't use it as a weapon against another person then it's fine!

This is why chefs can carry knifes around (I used to know some that brought them into nightclubs and leave them in the cloakroom!! So they were carrying them later on going home!!).

A Biro could be classed as a weapon if you stuck into someone as much as a bladed weapon or batton.

It's kinda like the nunchuk thing!! You buy them to train in martial arts or as wall hanging items!!

columok

Why are you considering purchasing an expandable baton?

coyote6

I own several of them being in US Law Enforcement. I'm spending a coupla' weeks in Dublin this summer and am used to being armed in some way. I'm aware of the restrictions and appreciate all the input. I'm not especially concerned, I just like to know what's up. Thanks for the input gents!:)

Perhaps a nice umbrella!;)

lostexpectation

I'd rather you not come if you feel the need to carry such things around.

memtalman

coyote6 wrote:

I own several of them being in US Law Enforcement. I'm spending a coupla' weeks in Dublin this summer and am used to being armed in some way.

That's kind of unusual, isn't it? Choosing which weaponary to bring on holidays - are you a little bit mental by any chance?

Dragan

coyote6 wrote:

I own several of them being in US Law Enforcement. I'm spending a coupla' weeks in Dublin this summer and am used to being armed in some way.

Kinda strange that you feel the need to arm yourself to go on Holidays dude. Kinda stranger that your "used to being armed" and associate this with a feeling of comfort and safety.

superfly

would you be able to bring them in your luggage?

Quillo

Your best bet in this country is "The Stick".
People walk the length and breath of Ireland swinging The Stick....

Its absolutely de rigueur if you are walking your dog.
But appears to be quite socially acceptable even when you don't have a dog.

The old tree branch variety might not go down as well in an urban environment as a "proper" walking stick, but allowances may be may for tourists unfamiliar with Stick etiquette :-)

memtalman

superfly wrote:

would you be able to bring them in your luggage?

Very good question. His best bet would be to keep the extendable baton in his hand luggage. That way if he gets attacked during the flight, by, let's say, a complete psycho ... he could have the baton easily to hand to defend himself.

Carrying the extendable baton in his hand luggage would have the added advantage that he could carry it discreetly in the boarding area so if he gets attacked there he could draw it early in the confrontation, in all probability an assailant wouldn't be expecting that.

judomick

your better off bringing your nunchuks, everyone knows chicks dig guys with nunchuk skillz

loz

coyote6 wrote:

I own several of them being in US Law Enforcement. I'm spending a coupla' weeks in Dublin this summer and am used to being armed in some way. I'm aware of the restrictions and appreciate all the input. I'm not especially concerned, I just like to know what's up. Thanks for the input gents!:)

Perhaps a nice umbrella!;)

Colm - Appologies in advance

Coyote/prick - why not stay in your mental country, we dont need any more nutters over here.

Pro. F

coyote6,
as you can no doubt see, from the abusive replies you got, people carrying weapons aren't popular around here.
don't pay any head though. for what its worth i think it was a question worth asking especially for someone from a different country.

hey scramble that was the most detailed to the point post ever!!

EDIT: PS: well done loz memtalman etc. i'm sure that guy will want to join in debates here in the future....
hey colm: so can i call loz a prick now?

Dragan

Pro. F wrote:

EDIT: PS: well done loz memtalman etc. i'm sure that guy will want to join in debates here in the future....

SO why should they be worried? All they were doing is expressing there worry and annoyance at somebody who would come on holidays over here and walk around with a concealed weapon.

At the end of the day i wouldn't like to think too many people do that either. Simply fact is that the OP would only carry it as an emotional crutch, which he pretty much admitted to himself.

To quote, many, many people on the board...."thats not healthy"

loz

Pro. F wrote:

coyote6,
don't pay any head though. for what its worth i think it was a question worth asking especially for someone from a different country.

It's Ireland - not feckin MARS ! - Surley someone in finger quotes " Law Enforcement " finger quotes - would have the cop-on not to bother asking ?

Pro. F wrote:

EDIT: PS: well done loz memtalman etc. i'm sure that guy will want to join in debates here in the future....
hey colm: so can i call loz a prick now?

only if your posting in the same JurisDICKtion

Pro. F

SO why should they be worried? All they were doing is expressing there worry and annoyance at somebody who would come on holidays over here and walk around with a concealed weapon.

its off putting, to say the least, to anybody who wants to post an honest question on here if they're going to get **** on from a great height by some crowd that don't like their views. you could just tell him what the laws are, they cover almost all aspects of the question. and also give him the general view, without abuse.

Simply fact is that the OP would only carry it as an emotional crutch, which he pretty much admitted to himself.
To quote, many, many people on the board...."thats not healthy"

there are plenty of states/cities in the U.S. where its a sensible idea to carry a weapon. 'that's not healthy' is an easy argument to make and i think that it needs to be proved for each individual case. he said he has good reasons for carrying a weapon in his own place.

Originally Posted by loz
It's Ireland - not feckin MARS ! - Surley someone in finger quotes " Law Enforcement " finger quotes - would have the cop-on not to bother asking ?

maybe he doesn't know anything about ireland???!!!! can your imagination stretch that far?

only if your posting in the same JurisDICKtion

LOL, right so, better keep this thread going for future use:D

vasch_ro

The gardai are not even allowed to have them yet !!!:)

Musashi

Sweet Jaysus, a fella can't even ask a question without being called names now!
I'd hope if I asked about carrying concealed in the US that Coyote, or someone in LE who knows the rules, would point me in the right direction. Like to Packing.org maybe

Coyote, anything you use to defend yourself will be classed as a weapon anyway. If you happen to be carrying a bag of Oranges and beat someone with them the Oranges become an impact weapon. Some things are specifically banned under the act however. Some highlights of the act include:

" "weapon of offence" means any article made or adapted for use for causing injury to or incapacitating a person, or intended by the person having it with him for such use."

"A member of the Garda Síochána may arrest without warrant any person who is, or whom the member, with reasonable cause, suspects to be, in the act of committing an offence under section 9, 10 or 11."

"the expression "prohibited weapon" means and includes any weapon of whatever description designed for the discharge of any noxious liquid, noxious gas, or other noxious thing, and also any ammunition (whether for any such weapon as aforesaid or for any other weapon) which contains or is designed or adapted to contain any noxious liquid, noxious gas, or other noxious thing;"

So no mace, pepper spray or "Bear" cartridges for the shotgun/flare gun either!

The suggestion of a walking stick is a good one, and a good excuse to buy a decent Blackthorn stick, just don't get the crappy Tourist ones. A mini Mag or Inova is probably grand as well, though a Koppo wrap may raise some eyebrows? A Stinger or Travel Wrench may or may not get you lifted, it would depend on the Garda and the situation I'd guess. A knife is a definite way to get noticed, even if it's just a SAK. A decent pen like a Mazzouli or even a fairly sturdy Sharpee Marker would be ok as well. Expandable Batons, Slappers, Black jacks and even Slung Shot are specifically banned and will get you arrested. In all fairness, being LEO your more used to physical altercations than most so I'd not worry too much about random crime in Dublin. Yes gun crime and assaults are more frequent, but a lot of that goes to "good riddance factor" being Feuds between rival gangs and old grudges among the Criminal fraternity.

Enjoy your trip and don't feel too Nekkid without your ASP or Monadnock, Fox Labs, Air Taser and Austrian Ceramics

Roper

Coyote,
Don't carry a weapon in Ireland. This is an entirely safe country. I hope you enjoy your time here, and I'd hazard a guess that you'll enjoy it even more without carrying a weapon.

Why don't you come over for a holiday and leave it all (including the paranoia) behind.

Dave Joyce

Hey Cotoye6 just ignore some of the gobsheets and their gobsheen comments as Musashi said in the previous post. A lot of people here find it hard to stretch their imagination and actually help someone out when they ask a perfectly reasonable question. As they say, its better to have something (LEGAL, ladies alright!!!) and not need it, than to need it and not have it!

Not sure if you've heard of a "Trapo" or "rock in a sock" but if you PM me I can let you know how to make a perfectly legal version which would be a very nice EDC.

BTW, have a great time when you come over and enjoy yourself! If you want to do some training while overhere, you might find you get some "different" replies.

coyote6

Not to worry. Its the same insecure geeks who've responded with hostility in the past. You may hate me, my country and my culture, that's perfectly fine with me. It reveals a level of ignorance I quite frankly didn't expect. I have many Irish friends none of which has ever demonstrated the degree of hate I've seen on this board. I post on the firearms and many other boards and have never received the bizarre reactions that I get on this one. I think some little boys have some ego problems. Those who gave civil, reasonable answers to what I feel is a reasonable question...thanks.

kenpo_dave

Well Coyote, there was some interesting points made in the replies. So, I have to ask this question...If you are NOT carrying some kind of weapon do you feel anxious and uncomfortable?

With regard to your original question, my friend bought an expandable baton in Army Bargains but they only sold it to him when he specified that he was a security guard. In my opinion theres no need to carry anything in Dublin. Ive never been mugged and the only times guys have tried to start a fight is when I was by myself, which I rarely am.

I hope you enjoy your time in Dublin.:)

Regards,

Dave.

coyote6

No I don't mind being unarmed. I train in Hakko Ryu Jujitsu and Mean Dirty Tricks;) . You have to understand my context. I work in a place where people have tried to kill me. It truly changes your wiring. You ever heard of crack addicts and meth addicts?... they're often my clientele. Our friend works in Ballymun so we stop by when were there (not at night!). I plan and implement tactical training and operations so it's in my nature to check out as many aspects of anything I do or anywhere I go. I annoy myself with it sometimes....perhaps theres medication.......? Cheers Y'all:D

coyote6

Oh...an forgive me...but LOZ...you're a DICK!

loz

coyote6 wrote:

Oh...an forgive me...but LOZ...you're a DICK!

ROFL - your worried about ballymun ?- whats wrong with ballymun ? - i think you'll find you statement would offend most of the folk that live there.


Dave J - your tourist information service is to outline "rock in a sock" weapons ? - nice

Roper

coyote6 wrote:

Not to worry. Its the same insecure geeks who've responded with hostility in the past. You may hate me, my country and my culture, that's perfectly fine with me. It reveals a level of ignorance I quite frankly didn't expect. I have many Irish friends none of which has ever demonstrated the degree of hate I've seen on this board. I post on the firearms and many other boards and have never received the bizarre reactions that I get on this one. I think some little boys have some ego problems. Those who gave civil, reasonable answers to what I feel is a reasonable question...thanks.

It was a reasonable question coyote, and I think you initially got some reasonable answers. To give the unreasonable ones some context, Ireland is currently in the midst of some serious gun crime caused by, in the main, drug dealers. I think that as a country that is used to unarmed police, and for the most part unarmed criminals, we're afraid that some of the less desirable traits of American culture may be slowly creeping into Ireland.

I think even if you do improvise a weapon as Dave outlined above, you could be looking at serious legal implications, as "necessary force" is a vital element of most assault rulings over here.

And Ballymun isn't so bad! Most of it is myth. Lotsa good people there who I'm happy to call my friends. Some bad apples, thats all. If you haven't seen the place in a while you'll be amazed at the transformation. It's going to be a nice town.

lostexpectation

coyote6 wrote:

Not to worry. Its the same insecure geeks who've responded with hostility in the past. You may hate me, my country and my culture, that's perfectly fine with me. It reveals a level of ignorance I quite frankly didn't expect. I have many Irish friends none of which has ever demonstrated the degree of hate I've seen on this board. I post on the firearms and many other boards and have never received the bizarre reactions that I get on this one. I think some little boys have some ego problems. Those who gave civil, reasonable answers to what I feel is a reasonable question...thanks.

ok the abuse from some was unnessecary but I wonder where we get this impression about US ex-cops and people interested in weapons if you ask questions like that, there was a lot of ignorance implied in that question.

Dave Joyce

Well, for those that are informed (ie living here and who know the score) you may have the opinion that Ireland is a safe place, but the degree of complancency here is laughable, particularly in the context of someone visiting the place as a tourist. I don't think theres a reasonable sized city in this country that doesn't have a fair amount of trouble at closing time, now maybe most of us know where to avoid, but not necesscarily someone visiting the country. As well as the crime gangs, traveller violence is commonplace also and in both cases there not particularly worried whose caught in the cross fire. I'm mainly referring to the travellers here, as their propensity for weapons (including but not exclusivley guns) and been indiscriminate in their use is widespread.

Secondly, the American Foriegn Dept (forgive my ignorance, not sure if this is the term thats used) recently gave warnings to American visitors here, citing that Dublin (in particular) could be regarded as unsafe for visitors.

Finally Loz, seeing as you drew me into your post, I reckon considering your background in part of this country, you have SOME neck to comment about weapons to me.

coyote6

No, Ballymun's great. I had a friend who had a knife put to her neck over a soccer ball. Get the chip off your shoulder LOZ. If you look hard enough you'll always find something to be offended about. The question WAS posted on a SELF DEFENSE BOARD!! I guarantee you'd receive friendly advice and anything you would need if visiting here. So please...chill a bit bro.

lostexpectation

Dave Joyce wrote:

Well, for those that are informed (ie living here and who know the score) you may have the opinion that Ireland is a safe place, but the degree of complancency here is laughable, particularly in the context of someone visiting the place as a tourist.

do you think ever tourist should carry a weapon?

Roper

I think Bord Failte need to review some of their literature.

I used to live (in what I would consider) a nice area. But when I was a kid people used to take a step back from me when I told them I lived in Santry.... strange eh? I'm a nice bloke, well raised etc. but when anyone did that I acted up, gave them what they wanted. You get what you expect from people in most situations. Now I'm not saying Ballymun is the city of Angels, and I've met some prize pr1cks from there too, but I've met them in all walks of life irregardless of their background.

Coyote,
If I were going on a well earned holiday, I just wouldn't go somewhere if I thought I was so afraid that I felt the need to carry a weapon. That's just me though.

Dave,
You and I don't always agree but I respect your position on most things, but that last post about Loz's background was bang out of order. I take it you were referring to the North. That's totally out of context, and in the past.

Cheers,
Barry

Aiodhan7

Mr Roper

How can you make statements with regard to Dave's reply, considering someone made a open question based on his own experience. Why is it so bang out of order while this guy LOZ finds it justified to call a man who asked a simple question a prick.

By the way Loz when you make accusations about Dave's contribution to tourism have a word with the tourist board and ask then what happen to the six counties in there advertising

Aiodhan

Hagar

Assume for a moment that the OP wasn't an American tourist.

How should someone who wanted to carry an offensive weapon be regarded?

With contempt perhaps?

Dave Joyce

do you think ever tourist should carry a weapon?

Thats a decision for every individual to make for themselves (and all the more pertinent if you're from some place where weapons are previlant) and you don't just switch off because of Bord Failte!

I think Bord Failte need to review some of their literature.

Roper, re-read my piece please, it was the American Forgien Dept (or whatever there called) who gave the security warning about Dublin!!! They usually tend to be fairly accurate with the information they give to their citizens.

I just wouldn't go somewhere if I thought I was so afraid that I felt the need to carry a weapon.

Firstly, how can you presume that someone from abroad will know exactly where/where not to go? Secondly, a lot of people carry weapons (both legal and otherwise) not because they are afraid, but in case of needing them in a situation hence my comment, better to have and not need.....etc

Dave,
You and I don't always agree but I respect your position on most things, but that last post about Loz's background was bang out of order. I take it you were referring to the North. That's totally out of context, and in the past.

Fair enough Barry, but I think I have been quite restrained in my reply actually. Two things, Loz brought me into it not vice versa and he has made another comment on this forum defending the British Army and can you imagine the responce I would get on say SFUK if I made comments about the Irish Republican Army!

How should someone who wanted to carry an offensive weapon be regarded?

Hagar, perhaps you should read the post properly before posting, as Coyote6 asked whether or not it was legal to carry them discreetly while in Ireland. Seeing as he asked the question he would hardly then carry an offensive weapon with him!! Jaysus!

Musashi

I think people are overlooking the fact that Coyote goes armed every day he's working, and probably when he's not. That is perfectly legal given his location and background. Coming here and further, going unarmed is foreign to him.
Try to imagine yourself going to say, a nudist resort. It would be strange to you to be sans pants, but for the regulars it's just the norm. I'd also give him credit for asking first, he could just stick one in his luggage and work away. I doubt any Airport, or even "Homeland Security" is going to query a LEO planner of Tactical Operations bringing anything he pleases once it goes in the hold.
I know when I was in Prague I bought a fairly large (12 inch blade) Khukri in a little Nepalese shop. That flew home with me in the checked luggage with no problems from anybody.
The various tourist sites cited pick pocketing as rife in Prague but the amount of people I saw with unzipped backpacks on, they deserved to be filched! Tourist information may not always be accurate so fair play to Coyote for asking the natives before time what the story is.
For what it's worth I saw no hassle in Prague, despite wandering off the beaten track a bit and seeing some poor areas. I was aware and watching out for it, but at their worst the Czech people would shout a lot and shape up, then wander off to the next bar. Encounters that would have cycled up to slapping matches here were just all show there. I dunno if this is typical or are Irish people especialy violent?

Also, on a personal note, Tom Crean and Gunny Carlos Hathcock are two of my personal heroes, I never heard if the campaign to get Carlos his CMH bore fruit? Maybe Coyote can let me know? For any aghast at the man's occupation, he was nominated for a Congressional Medal for saving the lives of other men by throwing them from a burning vehicle. He suffered severe burns himself which ended his military career. He ended up teaching shooting and guiding hunters, dying of Leukemia I think? I remember "Guns and Ammo" magasine auctioning one of his rifles to raise money for his treatment, I'm getting on I think in an early post Coyote said he'd had the privilege of meeting Gunny Hathcock? I saw him interviewed on Major Plasters' video and he struck me as a genuine country man, much like any farmer here, who grew up hunting to eat and having a phenomenal natural ability that way.
I've read about Elmer Keith shooting to eat as a guide as well, and it really struck home when I had to do the same for several months. I should put that in the Paleo foods thread
Sorry if this has gone well off topic, I'd just like to let Coyote know that not everyone here has such a dim, or indeed blinkered view of his nation and countrymen. Like anywhere, there are good and bad. If we were to be judged by our politicians on the world stage I think I'd claim to be Canadian or someplace inoffensive like that

coyote6

Musashi, Thanks for the good word. Two of my pals met Gunny. I went to his school two years after he passed in Feb. '99. I went in October 2001 (That was a strange time here). He was an honorable, down to earth man from Arkansas. He treated everyone very well and was kind. Getting through his school brought me and men much harder than me to tears.

As far as the weapons thing. It's not a crutch nor evidence of insecurity. I have sworn to protect and defend people and I take this oath seriously. I get called out at 3 a.m. some nights to go into some nutcase's house, leave my wife and 4 kids in their beds wondering if there papa is going to come back.

I had two close friends brutally murdered in January and have seen enough of this kind of thing to last a lifetime.

I meant no offense by my query. I simply won't back down from any sort of attack which would place the life of my wife or anyone I can help in jeopardy. I know Ireland is not especially dangerous.

On a very positive note: When I visited last summer I felt very much at home. I'm fascinated by Irish history and culture and think you're a great bunch. Otherwise why would I be hanging out on this board?

Hagar

Dave Joyce wrote:

Hagar, perhaps you should read the post properly before posting, as Coyote6 asked whether or not it was legal to carry them discreetly while in Ireland. Seeing as he asked the question he would hardly then carry an offensive weapon with him!! Jaysus!

Oh I read the post all right, what it boils down to is that if he was told here it was OK he was going to go around with an expanding baton on his person. Or did I get that wrong?

I have nothing against the guy, I don't know him, but the thought of armed people wandering about makes me uneasy. I know there are some out there now but we don't need any more of them.

judomick

Dave Joyce wrote:

the American Forgien Dept (or whatever there called) who gave the security warning about Dublin!!! They usually tend to be fairly accurate with the information they give to their citizens.

iraq have weapons of mass destructuion was another fine peice of american intelligence!:D

also Coyote6 you mentioned you were here last summer, what has changed this time that you felt you needed to bring weapons?

coyote6

Lighten up. It was a simple question. I wasn't even necessarily going to bring one with me ( a bit of a hassle really). I was just curious. It is a bit strange coming from my culture and context to see folks getting wrapped around the axle about a stick. If I was expecting "trouble" I'd bring a rifle and several friends. (That previous comment was what we call a joke.. no need to freak out about... there's this thing called humor......)

Hagar

coyote6 wrote:

there's this thing called humor......)

humour...:D

Dave Joyce

iraq have weapons of mass destructuion was another fine peice of american intelligence!

The Americans have a number of different departments, Mick, and the one I was referring to was the one which deals with Forgien Affairs, not the Intelligence Dept/Agency. I take it, if our government gave advice about not visiting a certain country/or advised to be cautious, you would treat the advice with the same contempt??

but the thought of armed people wandering about makes me uneasy. I know there are some out there now but we don't need any more of them.

You know there are SOME out there, I am just beginning to wonder whether some people on this forum are really that naive. Ask any doorman working about the amount of people carrying all sorts of weapons in this country!! There are loads of little and young scumbags carrying blades with them here in Galway and I'm sure its pretty much the same elsewhere. When we were leaving Birmingham airport last Sunday night (through the channel for Irish flights!!) we paused to look at a couple of glass cabinets of confiscated weapons and apart from some mad sheet, there was quite an amount of the stuff. Now are you saying this was all visitors to Ireland who had this confiscated and NOT Irish citizens returning home. Furthermore local media here have carried 3 reports (within the last couple of months) of forgien nationals carrying large kitchen knifes on their person and in obvious sight (the reason for their been stopped and searched by Gardai) not hidden away.

judomick

that was a joke dave hence the

lostexpectation

Dave Joyce wrote:

...

so you think every person should carry a weapon or what?

serious question?

Dave Joyce

That my friend is something for each individual to weigh up (and not take lightly) and decide for themselves.

Quillo

Why would anyone be concerned about ordinary people carrying a weapon for self defence purposes ? Seems to me the only people that need be concerned are those that look to prey on the ordinary person.......

Hagar

And precisely how do we tell them apart?