Is breaking a red light illegal

Carb

As mentioned on a number of threads here, the practice of breaking red lights is becoming more and more popular. Its use to be that you'd see a car speeding up when the light was amber and then go through the light as it was turning red, but lately, I've seen a lot more drivers, including lorries continue straight the red light, even though they could be 20 metres away from the lights when they turn red.

There have been couple of cases locally where the judge threw out the case (not sure why), but in one case the judge said that the traffic lights were only there for guidance. This could be just a rumour, but between this, and the complete lack of enforcement/cameras at junctions, I'm beginning to wonder if it is illegal.

roger 2006 yeah

hmmmm, good question. i always taught it was illegal. i know a guy who got a fine for breaking a red light a few months ago.

Henry Ford III

Of course it's illegal.

Do you know what an orange light means?

roger 2006 yeah

orange means stop if it's safe to do so.

Noelie

This is also starting to annoy me. I drive a bike and as you can guess i can take off pretty quick once the lights change. On a few occasions I have looked at the light turn green for me to go and about 5-10 seconds later a car will fly through lights in the opposite direction.

Also there is a set of traffic light at the bottom of my estate. It's Kingston in Ballinteer, the road leads onto and off of the M50, nearly everytime i'm using the peadestrian crossing a car will break the lights.

It seems to me that the worse traffic gets in and around Dublin the more people are willing to break lights just to get home a few minutes quicker. since most of the time they break lights only to rush up to another set of red lights

It seems people need to be punished badly to set an example, there should be high quality cameras set up at a few sets of lights around Dublin, anyone found to be breaking light should either get points(4+ in my opion) or have their licence taken off them and make them reapply for a driving test. It's no good giving a €40 fine we need punishment that will deter people.

Breaking lights can be more dangerous than speeding and IMO it is.

MrPudding

Noelie wrote:

T
Breaking lights can be more dangerous than speeding and IMO it is.

Agreed, I am very surprised that no motorcyclist have been creamed on the N11. I have seen a few near misses. Christ, I have seen red light jumpers weaving through the traffic that has gone on green.

Please do not tell me that the legal position of traffic lights is that they are a guide?

MrP

Turner

roger 2006 yeah wrote:

orange means stop if it's safe to do so.

so it is an offence to drive through an orange light if it was safe to stop.

Seth Brundle

Carb wrote:

There have been couple of cases locally where the judge threw out the case (not sure why), but in one case the judge said that the traffic lights were only there for guidance. This could be just a rumour, but between this, and the complete lack of enforcement/cameras at junctions, I'm beginning to wonder if it is illegal.

This may have been at roadworks or at temporary lights rather than permanent lights (not that there would be a differnece IMO, but legally I believe there is)!

MrPudding

Chief--- wrote:

so it is an offence to drive through an orange light if it was safe to stop.

That is the case in the UK for sure. Of course the whole "safe to do so" is very subjective and I would imagine would be hard to enforce.

I find it strange when I go up home and see most drivers stopping on amber. There is very little amber gambling and even less red light running.

MrP

Shred

What the original poster says is true:

Red = prepare to stop
Green = proceed with caution
Orange = stop if it's safe to do so

Some drivers really do exract the urine though:rolleyes:

el tel

Am I missing something or is the term 'orange light' an inside joke here?

Carb

Henry Ford III wrote:

Of course it's illegal.

Do you know what an orange light means?

I would have alway taken an orange light as prepare to stop and red is to stop. But just because I think that, doesn't make it illegal although I suppose it could make it dangerous driving.

I only asked because for some reason, it appears the judges couldn't proceed.

Sangre

Breaking a red light is so, so illegal. It will get you done for reckless or dangerous driving. There is not a chance a judge said they were for guidance only.

Interceptor

I broke a green light once. I hit it with a jack handle.

'cptr

RuggieBear

Shred wrote:

Red = prepare to stop
Green = proceed with caution
Orange = stop if it's safe to do so

think most irish drivers follow the old joke:

Green = grand
Orange = put the foot down
Red = three more cars

**Timbuk2**

There are these lights near me (anyone that lives in dundalk will know them, the "carolls factory lights") for a crossroad and if you get them when they are red it is a 2m 30s wait until they turn green again.

Therefore you have alot of people that don't want to wait, and the speed of some people flying through the red lights (I even saw a bus do it :eek:)

It is very dangerous as there is a lot of cars on it (it is where the dundalk, belfast, dublin and drogheda roads meet at one crossroad)

johnnyrotten

Shred wrote:

What the original poster says is true:

Red = prepare to stop
Green = proceed with caution
Orange = stop if it's safe to do so

Some drivers really do exract the urine though:rolleyes:

Its amazing how many drivers go through green lights without looking. The blinkers go on ...do they ever consider the ar$ehole breaking the RED light

observer

you are only allowed to pass through a set of lights if it is safe regardless of colour! breaking a red light is defo illegal. i was nearly hit by a car the other day when he broke the red light

johnnyrotten

observer wrote:

you are only allowed to pass through a set of lights if it is safe regardless of colour!

WTF!
You are not allowed to pass through a Red.
You are olny allowed to pass through an Amber if it unsafe to stop

Turner

This thread could go on a while.

Pataman

I was hit at the luas in sandyford by a car breaking the amber light, I was stopped at the next light which was red!

Alun

Carb wrote:

There have been couple of cases locally where the judge threw out the case (not sure why), but in one case the judge said that the traffic lights were only there for guidance. This could be just a rumour, but between this, and the complete lack of enforcement/cameras at junctions, I'm beginning to wonder if it is illegal.

I do seem to recall something to do with a green light not meaning you can drive through regardless without paying attention to traffic crossing your path, i.e. it doesn't confer any right of way to you. So although it is illegal to break a red light, if someone doing this hits you while you're going through green, you're partly to blame, or something like that. I'm pretty sure that's the legal situation in the UK, not sure about here.

I got side wiped once, many moons ago, when going through a set of lights on green which according to the locals who gathered after the accident often displayed green in both directions. Tried to sue the council for damage to my car (was only insured 3rd party and they went knock for knock) but they weren't interested. Moral of the story? Even if you're going through green, keep your eyes open.

Morrigan

The T-junction at the exit of the industrial estate I work in is very dangerous for pedestrians. Usually 2 or 3 vehicles break the lights and storm across my path, even though the green man has lit up.
Drivers even stop at red lights when they shouldn't - because of the positioning of traffic lights on the main road just past the actual junction, cars making a right turn from the industrial estate onto the main road often seem to get confused and end up stopping in the middle of the junction at these lights, even though they are red for the traffic on the main road to their left.
You know what I mean? Anyway, It's chaos because people aren't obeying the lights.

**Timbuk2**

As said before, green does not mean you are safe to go. If you like it gives you a bit of a guideline when you should go (like a lollipop man )

But breaking a red light is defo illegal. But if you get hit when going to a green light, it is partly your fault; as a driver you must be aware of the dangers of intersections and junctions. You never know when the police might be chasing Binladin down the N11 and decide to go through the lights to save time

HelterSkelter

It's scary that so many people don't know the rules regarding traffic lights. Do they not teach this in driving school anymore???

30. (1) Where traffic sign number RTS 00I, RTS 002, RTS 003 or RTS 004 (referred to in these Regulations as traffic lights) is provided, a person shall not drive a vehicle past the traffic lights, or past traffic sign number RRM 017 [stop line] where such sign is provided in association with the traffic lights when the red lamp of the traffic light is illuminated.

prospect

Only this morning I was behind a Black Opel Corsa with L plates approaching the Lights on the Nangor Road at the Clondalkin Junction.
There was a gap of at least 20m between the Corsa and the car in front of it. The first car passed through the lights as they turned red, and the corsa, which wasn't travelling fast just kept pootling along straight through the junction. The lightas had been red for 3 or four seconds, which is quite a long time in this situation.
Unbelievable...

Snickers Man

Carb wrote:

in one case the judge said that the traffic lights were only there for guidance.

I'm sure that's just a modern myth. There is the story of the Italian politician explaining in terms of the local attitude to traffic lights how the general Italian attitude to law and order varies as one moves from north to south.

"In Milan, they are an instruction.
In Rome, they are a suggestion.
In Naples, they are Christmas decorations."

I hardly think an Irish judge is going all Roman on us.

Savman

Chief--- wrote:

This thread could go on a while.

Well it shouldn't considering it's so, so simple.

RED - STOP
AMBER - STOP
GREEN - PROCEED ONLY IF SAFE

What's so f***** complicated? You may only pass thru an amber light if stopping is unsafe, you must reduce speed approaching a Green light as believe it or not it doesnt stay green forever.

To answer the OP, er, YES it is illegal.:rolleyes:

In reality More alone the lines of

RED - STOP
AMBER - GO QUICKER
GREEN - PROCEED ONLY IF SAFE

prospect

While it is being discussed:

I can safely say, that in 11 years of driving, I have NEVER seen anyone come to a complete stop on an amber light.

zuutroy

Here's a good one (answer direct from a Garda so donr blame me if you later unearth it as untrue)......What is the only circumstance in which a red light can be broken legally by anyone in this country?

axer

zuutroy wrote:

Here's a good one (answer direct from a Garda so donr blame me if you later unearth it as untrue)......What is the only circumstance in which a red light can be broken legally by anyone in this country?

When it is safer to pass through a red light than not to or when directed to do so by a garda or when the red light is not even a traffic light or if you own the red light thus it is legal for you to smash it up.

zuutroy

axer wrote:

When it is safer to pass through a red light than not to or when directed to do so by a garda

Not according to the statute

axer wrote:

or when the red light is not even a traffic light or if you own the red light thus it is legal for you to smash it up

Now you're just being silly!

fade2black

What i see a lot of is when the light is green the car will proceed to the centre of the road, say to turn right, but won't be able to do so because there is a stream of traffic coming in the opposite direction. So, the car waits till the line of traffic has stopped and then takes his right turn. The problem is, in that time the lights have turned red again but he will turn right anyway, usually into a crowd of pedestrians who have just found their green man.

Also, lately I've discovered that while cycling a bicyle I receive magic powers, notably those of invisibility. But that's for another day and another forum.

axer

zuutroy wrote:

Not according to the statute

But do we not have to obey gardai in an instance when they tell us to proceed through a red light according to statute?

rubadub

I went through a red light during my driving test and passed no problems, remarked on me having good common sense.

I was out in the middle of a junction preparing to turn right, waiting for the filter light to come on. The filter never came on so I was stuck out in the junction with a 2 red lights in front of me for ahead, and turning right. I turned right anyway, breaking the red. (there was no yellow box)

Now if anybody says "ah well thats a special case", well then no, it is apparently not illegal (in some cases).

BTW if you are waiting for a right filter light and the straight on light is green, are you allowed to turn right if there is no oncoming traffic on the other side. I have seen many people doing this all the time. They too are breaking red lights, with no apparent need (i.e. are not out in a junction like I was)

fade2black

rubadub wrote:

I went through a red light during my driving test and passed no problems, remarked on me having good common sense.

I was out in the middle of a junction preparing to turn right, waiting for the filter light to come on. The filter never came on so I was stuck out in the junction with a 2 red lights in front of me for ahead, and turning right. I turned right anyway, breaking the red.

Now if anybody says "ah well thats a special case", well then no, it is apparently not illegal (in some cases).

BTW if you are waiting for a right filter light and the straight on light is green, are you allowed to turn right if there is no oncoming traffic on the other side. I have seen many people doing this all the time. They too are breaking red lights, with no apparent need (i.e. are not out in a junction like I was)

And what would happen if, given my example above, you clipped a pedestrian as you turned?

drdre

Sangre wrote:

Breaking a red light is so, so illegal. It will get you done for reckless or dangerous driving. There is not a chance a judge said they were for guidance only.

No way can you be done for dangerous driving for breaking a red light.where did you get that info from. i got done for dangerous driving and it was a serious offence(handbrake turn).
i really donot believe this comment

fade2black

drdre wrote:

No way can you be done for dangerous driving for breaking a red light.where did you get that info from. i got done for dangerous driving and it was a serious offence(handbrake turn).
i really donot believe this comment

Then you really shouldn't be allowed to drive a car.

prospect

rubadub wrote:

BTW if you are waiting for a right filter light and the straight on light is green, are you allowed to turn right if there is no oncoming traffic on the other side. I have seen many people doing this all the time. They too are breaking red lights, with no apparent need (i.e. are not out in a junction like I was)

I am not sure you are correct here.

If you are turning right, and the straight light is green, but there is no traffic coming in your direction you:

CAN turn right if there is no filter light at all, or if there is an extinguished filter light.

CAN NOT turn right if the filter light is red.

BrianD3

rubadub wrote:

I went through a red light during my driving test and passed no problems, remarked on me having good common sense.

I was out in the middle of a junction preparing to turn right, waiting for the filter light to come on. The filter never came on so I was stuck out in the junction with a 2 red lights in front of me for ahead, and turning right. I turned right anyway, breaking the red. (there was no yellow box)

Now if anybody says "ah well thats a special case", well then no, it is apparently not illegal (in some cases).

Yes, this was the correct thing to do. AFAIK when the filter light didn't come on you were "in control of the junction" and were allowed proceed through the red.

zuutroy

axer wrote:

But do we not have to obey gardai in an instance when they tell us to proceed through a red light according to statute?

OK, lets say, when is it legal to disobey a red light or garda signal, whichever may be in effect.

Idleater

rubadub wrote:

I went through a red light during my driving test and passed no problems, remarked on me having good common sense.

I was out in the middle of a junction preparing to turn right, waiting for the filter light to come on. The filter never came on so I was stuck out in the junction with a 2 red lights in front of me for ahead, and turning right. I turned right anyway, breaking the red. (there was no yellow box)

Now if anybody says "ah well thats a special case", well then no, it is apparently not illegal (in some cases).

If there was a filter light for you turning right, you should not have been in the middle of the junction "waiting" to turn right. If there is a filter, and it is red, you must wait at the stop line. If there is a filter and it is but the exit of the junction is blocked, you must wait at the stop line.

If there is no filter and there is a "box" outlined for a car to turn right, one vehicle may enter this box, with the remainder of the queue waiting at the stop line.

If there is no filter and no box, you must wait at the stop line for a suitable break in traffic that you may cross the junction safely.

This was pointed out to me by my instructor because there is a junction at the Churchtown on the test route where people get "caught" in the middle of the junction like that.

As far as your "special case" I don't know, maybe the tester thought that you got yourself out of that nice little hole that you dug for yourself pretty well, but as for the rule, you broke it and can be thankful that you passed.


L.

Alun

nereid wrote:

If there is no filter and no box, you must wait at the stop line for a suitable break in traffic that you may cross the junction safely.

?? That isn't what I was taught by my instuctor (in the UK, many years ago). I was taught to move out into the junction ready to turn right, regardless of whether there is a yellow box or not. If you applied that technique, you'd be stuck at most traffic lights for hours waiting for a gap big enough especially at larger junctions.

BrianD3

Alun is correct. You are supposed to move forward at junctions when waiting for a right turn arrow as long as
-you're the first car in line
-you're facing an extinguished green arrow as opposed to a red signal, in the latter case you stop at the line
-you are blocked only by oncoming traffic

Makes no difference if there is a yellow box or any other kind of box or not. I was always taught to treat all junctiosn as if they have a yellow box, even though there may not be one marked on the road.

Failing to move forward when you should in a driving test will result in you being marked or failed for lack of progress.

If you have moved forward and for whatever reason you don't get a green arrow as I posted already you are in control of the junction and can break the red light. Just be really careful to watch for pedestrians as they will probably have a green man and will walk out.

I remember a few years ago, the junction between Collins Avenue and Ballymun Rd in dublin had a missing or intermittent right turn filter light. It was a bit strange for a large, busy junction. If traffic was anyway heavy the car that moved forward would not get to turn right before the lights went red. There were no signs or road markings forbidding right turns at the junction either. The layout and lights were changed a few years back, now there is a reliable arrow at that location.

Jumpy

prospect wrote:

While it is being discussed:

I can safely say, that in 11 years of driving, I have NEVER seen anyone come to a complete stop on an amber light.

That is because they are slowing down. There is no time to come to a complete stop on an amber unless you hit the brakes hard. It is red by the time the car comes to a stop as a general rule.

As for the OP question, I cannot beleive you are actually discussing this. Breaking a red is illegal and a finable offence. There will be a points penalty for it in the new penalty list due next month.
Red light cameras will be in place soon, I beleive they already have a few in Dublin according to the radio the other day.

edit: arg...my spelling has gone to crap...must...remember "I before E except after C"

Jumpy

drdre wrote:

No way can you be done for dangerous driving for breaking a red light.where did you get that info from. i got done for dangerous driving and it was a serious offence(handbrake turn).
i really donot believe this comment

You can, and by the sound of it...will.

Jumpy

rubadub wrote:

I went through a red light during my driving test and passed no problems, remarked on me having good common sense.

I was out in the middle of a junction preparing to turn right, waiting for the filter light to come on. The filter never came on so I was stuck out in the junction with a 2 red lights in front of me for ahead, and turning right. I turned right anyway, breaking the red. (there was no yellow box)

Now if anybody says "ah well thats a special case", well then no, it is apparently not illegal (in some cases).

BTW if you are waiting for a right filter light and the straight on light is green, are you allowed to turn right if there is no oncoming traffic on the other side. I have seen many people doing this all the time. They too are breaking red lights, with no apparent need (i.e. are not out in a junction like I was)

None of what you described is breaking a red. If your rear tires cross the line after the light has switched from amber to red then that is construed as a break. At least that is the way in which australian red light cameras operate. You had already passed that line on the green which then went red while you were waiting, the traffic on the other side is required to let you turn before they move off.

Jumpy

prospect wrote:

I am not sure you are correct here.

If you are turning right, and the straight light is green, but there is no traffic coming in your direction you:

CAN turn right if there is no filter light at all, or if there is an extinguished filter light.

CAN NOT turn right if the filter light is red.

Just to clarify, you have both said the same thing.
He was not talking about a red filter light, he was referring to an intersection with a single green filter light that is either on or off (no amber or red arrows).

So you are both right.

Jumpy

zuutroy wrote:

OK, lets say, when is it legal to disobey a red light or garda signal, whichever may be in effect.

I would assume (may not be right here) that it comes into effect if there is a traffic Gardai in place because of faulty lights or an accident has occurred blocking a lane.

At a guess....when you are obstructing a lit ambulance?....not sure here...

seamus

When you see a green arrow, it means that traffic may proceed in that direction only. Thus, if you are waiting to turn right, and only a green arrow is lit for traffic going straight ahead, you *may not* proceed into the junction to wait to turn right. If the light is a full (i.e. round) green, then you may proceed, regardless of whether a right-turn filter light exists.

Is that what everyone has already said?

As BrianD points out, if you are in the center of a junction waiting to turn, and all of the lights have gone red, you have already proceeded through your lights (thus, you aren't breaking any lights), and are in control of the junction. All other roads users must yield to you until you have left the junction - this includes pedestrians waiting to cross the road you are turning into, ped. crossing or otherwise.