Quitting the corporate world

The_Chopper

I'm thinking about trying poker for a year and take it from there, I am just a bit sick of the corporate world.

I don't however just want to play the game. I'd like to do something else as well within poker. For example Nicky is managing the poker lounge in limerick.

What advice would one give?
Would you recommend playing cash games and tournaments, both live and online?
Should I play 7 days a week or just 4?

These are probably the ramblings of a mad man and if anyone can make sense of this and offer advice it would be greatly appreciated.

Lafortezza

Only jobs I can think of in poker that don't mostly involve playing are dealing and maybe marketing/accounting/business side of running a card room or online site.
If you're thinking about playing poker for a living for a year or more then you need to give us some info on your bankroll and what games you play.

The_Chopper

The accounting and business side of a card room would appeal to me, so any info on that front would be great.

Upto now I've made money playing live poker only. I've never given myself a good run on the net but when I do tend to play, I lose.

On average I cash in about 1 in 3 tournaments I play (that includes stakes from 50 rebuys to 500FO).
Cash games I play are the usual 1,2 games in casinos and the 1,3 game in galway.

I'd rather not go above 500 buys ins for tournaments for the time been.

Lafortezza

Spend some time trawling the net for jobs related to poker sites/cardrooms. Dunno if PPP have a careers page, but I think they might be the only ones with a base in Ireland.

Can you expand on your poker career to date? You'd need to be making consistant profit each month to cover living expenses and to also increase your bankroll over a reasonable period of time before I'd say playing for a job would be ok.

Running Bing

First of all I will point out I am not a pro poker player and this is based on my opinion on the way I would do it if I was going pro. I think its great that your thinking of trying something new/following your dreams but it seems to me you havent put a lot of thought into this. Ill spare you the lecture cause im sure youv heard a million times before but pro poker player is a massive lifestyle change and one though way to earn a living.

As for jobs within poker I wouldnt say thered be that much doing. Your best bet would be to get a few contatcs within the poker scene and contact the clubs directly.

As for cash or tourneys thats completely up to you and what you prefer/are better at. Personally I would never in a million years try to earn a living off tourneys I think it would terrible, but thats just me.

As for the other question, 7 or 4 days thats completely up to you again. The more you play the more you earn(assuming your a winning player) so you have to ask yourself what you value more the money or the leisure.

It will also be tough imo earning a living solely from live poker but im sure a few will disagree with that, im just saying if I was going pro online poker would figure prominently in the plan. 500 buyins for tourneys is a huge bankroll:eek: not that much is needed imo. But one warning is that a lot of people advice you have a years worth of living expenses for backup so this needs to be taken into account as well. If I was going pro Id want at least 500 big bets in my bankroll(and the more the better) and about 15-20 grand for living expenses for the year. Id class a bankroll of 80 tourney buyins as very big and if you went broke with a bankroll of that size then your either the unluckiest man oin gods green earth or pro poker not for you. Hope this helps.

The_Chopper

To date I've only been playing poker part time. The last two months aside, I've been quite profitable at the game, consistantly making a profit from tournaments and cash games.

Most of what I've won has come from casinos like the SE, 4 aces etc, and I also cashed in a few pokerevents events before xmas.

I've never had the time to play in bigger events because of work, but hope if I try the game full time I will.

Lafortezza

Can you win enough each month to live off comfortably and to increase your bankroll? This is kind of important, if you can't answer this then you probably need to play poker as a second job for a considerable time until you can answer it.

Do you have enough money in your bank account to pay your rent/car/food/etc/etc bills for 6 months. Seperate to this do you have enough money in your bankroll to afford running and playing bad for a couple of months and still be able to play on without risking going broke?

Ollieboy

I know PPP are always looking for staff and they have a recruitment section on there site, there mostly support jobs, but I'm sure there's accounts and adm jobs also.

In relation to poker, thats a very personal decision.

Running Bing

The_Chopper wrote:

To date I've only been playing poker part time. The last two months aside

If you dont mind me asking how long have you been playing? As lafortezza pointed out its not just a matter of being profitable, your talking about making a living off this. Paying for food, rent, insurance, clothes, saturday nights out etc. etc. purely from your poker winnings. You have to ask yourself "can I realistically do this". The fact that you feel you cant win online would be a potential red flag for me. Assuming that you have played enough online to get a realistic view of your results (where variance doesnt play a huge role) you have to ask yourself why am I not winning.

The_Chopper

I've been playing about 12months.
I have a bankroll in line with the above recommendations, in face I could probably go on holidays for the next 6 months, have a lavish life style, stay in posh places and still not go broke.
Internet poker I have never really tried but know I will have to give it a fair go. In a good week of cash games and no tournaments I've won upto 15K. In a normal week of tournaments I'll made about 2-3K (average).
Cash games swing for me but tourament poker doesn't. I seem to do well in smaller tournaments, although it's been a while since I've won (not cashed) in a big one.
To be honest if I do this it will be on a temperory basis - if all goes wrong I'll just go get another corporate job :-(

5starpool

Where do you play if you win 2-3k a week on tournies?

Marq

5starpool wrote:

Where do you play if you win 2-3k a week on tournies?

.

Check out this excellent discussion on 2+2.

I would also agree that you don't seem to have put enough thought into this to confidently go pro. That is not to say that you wouldn't earn money or that you aren't good enough to go pro.

The_Chopper

A couple of different places:
Pokerevents tournaments (been a while since I cashed there though)
Galway
Limerick
Dublin
All buy ins of less then 100

Daithio

I don't see a problem in giving it a shot Ricky as long as you have qualifications that you can fall back upon if it all goes belly up.

I think if you're considering playing full time you'll have to learn how to play online first, there's a well of money to be made there and it's alot more convenient than playing live. If you can't adapt your game to the internet then maybe you shouldn't give up the day job. I'm sure you'll be able to though, it's really not too difficult.

Also I reckon you should play a MAX of 4 days a week, you'll play much better and won't suffer from burnout. Playing 7 days a week is a recipe for disaster.

delanec8

What cash games do you play in to make 15K a week?

The_Chopper

Cheers Dave, I will try and adapt to online poker. I've never really given it a chance before as I lose patience with fish quickly.

The 15K cash games has happened me about 3 or 4 times since I've been playing. I'd rather keep them to myself

The_Chopper

What software do people recommend for assisting with online poker?
Where can I download it from - what does it cost etc?

I know there was a post put up before but I can't find it.

Thanks

ianmc38

Pokertracker
Pokerace
Pokerstove

I can get you Poker Tracker for free. PM for details.

FastMachine

I've been a professional poker player for the last 8 months and it's the best decision I've ever made. I didn't quit work, I quit college to play. If you think you can do it, I'd strongly recommend it. If you find you can't make a living at it you can always go back to your job, but it's worth giving it a go. If you are making as much as you say you are, you don't have much to worry about.

I have to say though, I find your stats a little hard to believe.
15K in a week from live cash games? And you say you're playing 1/2 and 1/3. That's crazy. I'm making over 10K a week but that's four tabling 5/10 and sometimes 10/20 for 35+ hours a week. Then there's the fact that a hand online is probably twice as fast as offline so you're in effect playing 8 times as much poker as one offline game. I've estimated the maximum that can be made at 5/10 from at least 40 hours in a week where almost everything goes your way and you play almost perfect poker is 25K, 20K is also very, very good but a bit more achievable.
But 15K from live 1/2 games? Were you playing at 1/2 stakes stakes during these 15K weeks and how many hours did it take? What were the stack sizes at the tables? I don't see who'd have that much cash to loose to you in a real world game other than professionals or a few very wealthy fish. With the high variance nature of playing only one table you could just as easily loose 15K. I had a day last week where I made only a small profit when I could've been up 6K only for a few very bad beats for my whole stack, and that's with the reduced variance of playing 4 tables online.

And averaging 2-3K from live tournaments only playing part time smallish buy in events? Are you finishing 1st or 2nd every single week? I don't play tournaments but that looks like an incredible run, considering the high variance of mtts where one bad beat can put you out no matter how good you are.

Correct me if I'm wrong but are you exaggerating your results a little?

cardshark202

The_Chopper wrote:

Cheers Dave, I will try and adapt to online poker. I've never really given it a chance before as I lose patience with fish quickly.

The 15K cash games has happened me about 3 or 4 times since I've been playing. I'd rather keep them to myself

This is a sharing forum now split with the info on these mysterious cash games!:)

5starpool

cardshark202 wrote:

This is a sharing forum now split with the info on these mysterious cash games!:)

I bet he plays with those dogs. They don't look up to much from the pictures I have seen of them.

Running Bing

FastMachine wrote:

I'm making over 10K a week but that's four tabling 5/10 and sometimes 10/20 for 35+ hours a week. Then there's the fact that a hand online is probably twice as fast as offline so you're in effect playing 8 times as much poker as one offline game.

I assume your playing NL fastmachine? Also to chopper, **** me with reults like that you should've quit long ago. I think Id be hard pressed to make that much on play money tables on party:D You much be playing with the richest fishiest players around, no wonder you dont want to share.

The_Chopper

Just to explain a bit on the tournaments.
On a normal week I'll play a 50FO on mondays - winner take all and a 100FO on tuesdays. Throughout the week I'll also play in a 30 rebuy tournament, at least another 100FO and a 50 rebuy tournament. With entrants ranging from 10 - 90, 2 (3 if no first placed is acheived) money finishes in a week is all you'd need to reach 2K. These figures are actually based from the months oct2005 to Jan2006 inclusive as I haven't played much poker in feb or mar.

As far as cash games go I've said in a good week I've made 15K and I have 3 times no less. To be fair they were probably exception weeks and I do get a lot more swings in cash games then tournaments.

Winning 15K in a week normally would entail playing from midnight to 7 or 8 am for 6 out of 7 nights in the week. This game almost doesn't really exist anymore, people are now going broke. To be fair there have been nights where I've also walked out 1K down for the night. However I try and give myself a limit that if I loose I walk in cash games. Simple as that.

In the last two months I have not played that much poker, hardly any tournaments and in cash games I have been losing as of late.

I don't like mentioning card rooms or peoples names etc in public forums, without concent.

FastMachine

Well, I think you should definately give it a shot then Chopper. You're obviously a winning player and that's the main requirement for the job. One thing I will say, is that I think you should try and get going with some online games. It's so convient and you can play so much more in such a short space of time, thus increasing your profits. It might take a few weeks to get used to and start winning regularly it but it'd definately be worthwhile. If you do go for it some people might think it's a bit of a laugh that you're packing in the job to play poker for a living....well if you can make it work you'll be the one doing the laughing, all the way to the bank.

The Four Aces eh? That's not too far from where I live, pity those big games aren't still going Although, like yourself and online poker, it'd take me a few weeks to get my live game together as I rarely play offline.

Best of luck with it if you do decide to go pro.


@Bablyling - Yes, I only play NL holdem.

ianmc38

The most i've ever won on a live cash table is €1600 and that was an 8 hour session playing perfectly, only one bad beat, and being physically bruised form the deck hitting me so hard. €200-€600 live 7 nights a week is attainable. 15k in one week at 1/2 PL is Hans Christian Anderson or Grimm brothers stuff tbh.

Lafortezza

Honest opinion - sample size too small, get online play poker online for 6 months as a 2nd income then decide.

magpie

I'm making over 10K a week

So you make €500k a year playing poker? :rolleyes:

Can all you poker nerds stop lying about how much money you make playing cards?

If you're making €100 a week tax-free to top up your salary I'd rate that as good going.

5starpool

If I were you magpie, I would duck right about........ now!

FastMachine

No I don't make 500K a year playing poker because I haven't been playing it a year. And I've only started making over 10K since I've moved to the higher stakes. Last week was my best yet at €14K. I'm up 3K for today and I hope to make at least another 1K before the day is out. Go look at my previous posts or the thread at the top of the page if you think I'm talking crap.

magpie

If its this easy to make vast quantities of cash playing poker why isn't the entire Irish economy poker-based at this stage?

jimbling

magpie wrote:

If its this easy to make vast quantities of cash playing poker why isn't the entire Irish economy poker-based at this stage?

who said it was easy?

Lafortezza

magpie wrote:

If its this easy to make vast quantities of cash playing poker why isn't the entire Irish economy poker-based at this stage?

It's not easy, you just have to be good at poker (or better than the majority)

Imposter

magpie wrote:

If its this easy to make vast quantities of cash playing poker why isn't the entire Irish economy poker-based at this stage?

Because the majority still thinks the money is to be made in property!

5starpool

magpie wrote:

If its this easy to make vast quantities of cash playing poker why isn't the entire Irish economy poker-based at this stage?

Well I for one certainly can't make that kind of money at poker, much as I would love to, I am nowhere near good enough, disciplined enough, or dedicated enough.

It is a small minority who can do that, and fair play to FM if he is one of those.

Ste05

magpie wrote:

If its this easy to make vast quantities of cash playing poker why isn't the entire Irish economy poker-based at this stage?

LOL - who said it was easy?? The capital investment needed alone to play at 10/20 level is €50k at least needed for a Bankroll, never mind the risks involved, etc.

Do you think just any person can come along and do this. For that matter can a random person take up any Profession at the highest level and survive??

Please get a grip. There's maybe 1.5% of Poker Players in the World make this kind of money. (just like in any profession, the top 1.5% or so of them all make huge money) By all accounts FastMachine seems to be one of these players and all I can say is Fair play to him and I hope it keeps up.

magpie

If you can drop out of college and be making €10k a week in under a year then its easy.

Ste05

Troll

magpie

just like in any profession, the top 1.5% or so of them all make huge money

I agree, but most people in the top 1.5% of their profession normally spend many years in tertiary, post-graduate and further professional education and have years of experience in their chosen field.

Do you think that you could become, say, a top Barrister by dropping out of college and applying yourself to your chosen profession for a year or two?

In comparison with the other 1.5% I would say that, by the evidence presented here, its easier to make money playing poker than pursuing a profession. If that's the case then I ask again, why aren't more people doing it?

Troll

I'm not trolling, I just find it hard to believe that the extravagant earnings bandied around here can be real.

Ste05

magpie wrote:

I'm not trolling, I just find it hard to believe that the extravagant earnings bandied around here can be real.

Well it certainly looked that way. But I'll take you at face value for now

magpie wrote:

I agree, but most people in the top 1.5% of their profession normally spend many years in tertiary, post-graduate and further professional education and have years of experience in their chosen field.

Do you think that you could become, say, a top Barrister by dropping out of college and applying yourself to your chosen profession for a year or two??

You're comparing Apples and Oranges there. There are certain professions that require years of experience to build up all the skill sets needed. i.e. A Barrister. A reputation is also very important and this needs to be built up over time.

However there are plenty of other professions that require no training, study, or even education. P.S. I'm talking about professions generally, not "The Professions"

You obviously know nothing about Poker and the skill sets needed to be successful, but they are not the types that take 10 - 15 years to develop.

I usually find it best not to discuss things that I know nothing about. Perhaps you might take this on board for future reference.

EDIT:

magpie wrote:

In comparison with the other 1.5% I would say that, by the evidence presented here, its easier to make money playing poker than pursuing a profession. If that's the case then I ask again, why aren't more people doing it?

Do you know the Capital investment needed to play Professional Poker at the levels required to make anywhere near this kind of money??

The reason more people aren't earning this kind of money is because it is incredibly difficult to do so. There's millions trying.
Some people are more risk averse, don't have the skill needed. We could write a book about this point.

Imposter

magpie wrote:

In comparison with the other 1.5% I would say that, by the evidence presented here, its easier to make money playing poker than pursuing a profession. If that's the case then I ask again, why aren't more people doing it?



I'm not trolling, I just find it hard to believe that the extravagant earnings bandied around here can be real.

I'm not exactly convinced on the figures being bandied about either, certainly not in terms of a long term sustainable income.

The reason most don't do it is that if they don't have a 'thing' for poker, it involves a lot of study and work and most people don't want to put so much work into it initially when it's done alongside a full-time job. Students can do it a little easier but it's still a lot of work. Anyone who enjoys the game will put in the effort but are usually more realistic in what they can acheive from poker. Some will make it as pros but it's not entirely the lifestyle it seems to be.

De Deraco

if you did a little of your own independent research yo would see its entirely possible to make that amount if you have the money time concentration and skill, many people on here dont play to such high stakes due to not having money or time. but alot of players are winning at their chosen levels there are losing weeks and players occasionally post about those too.

As for the barrister question, i think once you have a big interest in you field of study it makes it alot easier to excel in that field be it law or poker.

NickyOD

magpie wrote:

In comparison with the other 1.5% I would say that, by the evidence presented here, its easier to make money playing poker than pursuing a profession. If that's the case then I ask again, why aren't more people doing it?

It's not easier. You need to be an exceptional player to make that kind of money. a very good player mught only just get by playing poker. Only a class act can make very serious money and even a brilliant player can run bad for several months or longer and potentially go broke without proper bankroll management.

Some of the figures quoted in this thread are pure fantasy but I will tell you how much I've made over the last 2 weeks part time. From 2 pokerevents tournaments I made €1300 in cash and €3500 in tickets I won minus the entry fees. Online I also made €3000 playing omaha and that was mostly tipping away from my desk at the cardroom while directing tournaments and watching over the cash game. While I think most people lie about how much they make I tihnk it could be very possible for someone playing 5/10 to make 10K in a week. It's just 10 buy ins and I see plenty of the top NL players on full tilt making atleast that.

Back to the topic at hand. Ricky I don't think you should consider playing full time until you find a game that you beat consistently and can rely on as a solid income. I wouldn't rely on tournaments as they can be too volatile. Also you need to make sure you have no debts and be extrmemely well bankrolled.

Lafortezza

NickyOD wrote:

Online I also made €3000 playing omaha and that was mostly tipping away from my desk at the cardroom while directing tournaments and watching over the cash game.

Off-topic, but what limits and what site was this?

fuzzbox

It certainly is possible to make the sort of money FastMachine is talking about.

It is not easy, you have to play poker well in order to do it. Very well.
But it certainly is possible.

ianmc38

The best I have ever done in a week at $1/$2 is €1500 profit. But I usually single table. People like "madmats" make several thousand four-tabling those tables every week.

NickyOD

lafortezza wrote:

Off-topic, but what limits and what site was this?

Mostly at 1/2 6 or 8 handed where the buy in is €400. I'm not telling you the site but it should be renamed shootingfishinabarrellwithacannonpoker.com

Hectorjelly

Fastmachine is playing at a limit where the amounts he is talking about are definitely doable. He is playing 5/10 and 10/20, with buyins of 750 and 1500 respectively. Winning 2 buyins is not a big deal, at any limit. So 10k a week isnt that much. A good player can clear 500,000 a year at these limits. Ive played quite a bit of 3/6 with him and I thought he was very good, allthough I havent seen him play at higher levels I would be very surprised if he wasnt telling the truth.

The reason more Irish people dont do this is its very difficult and requires a lot of skill, discipline and experience. None of which come easily to the typical Irish gambler/poker player. Most Irish people are awful at poker and donate large amounts online.

FastMachine

I don't see what's so hard to believe about making 10K+ a week if you're 4-tabling at these stakes for 35+ hours. I was making 1-2K every week on .50/1 and 4-8K when I was on 2/4. It's been a natural progression so it hasn't been a huge surprise to me.
What would you expect me to be making at 5/10.....2K?4K? Added to the fact that I've been constantly improving surely it stands to reason that I should be able to maintain the winrate as I've moved up. I'm always working on my game and analysing hands and situations when I'm not playing, as in all the time. I don't just log on, pull in a few grand and go to bed.

I don't actually play much 10/20 now as the games aren't on often enough to give me a level of variance I'd be happy with.

Is it easier than being a barrister? For some yes, for most no. Yes, you're going to be making more money faster through poker but that's only if you've got the ability. If you're not you're going to loose it, big time. There was a guy at a 5/10 table two weeks ago begging for $500 to get him started again after he'd just blown his whole (insufficient) 12K bankroll. I know of another guy who's quit after loosing over 30K. I don't know where these guys got the money in the first place, it wasn't from poker anyway, as they obviously weren't long term winners.

It is certainly much easier to make alot of money at poker if you've got the skill, discipline and experience, as Hector says, but most people don't have these attributes and they're not things that can be learned out of a book.
With poker, you either have it or you don't. If you have it, it means you have lots of natural potential and can keep improving and making even more money. If you don't you'll go broke if you try and play for a living.



Btw, I'm actually under a new name now on Tribeca as I've switched sites for rakeback. Just in case anyone was wondering when I put in the hours.

RoundTower

magpie wrote:

If its this easy to make vast quantities of cash playing poker why isn't the entire Irish economy poker-based at this stage?

It is!

Doctors, lawyers, guards and binmen, they all get up in the morning to go to work so they can earn the money they lost on Paddy Power Poker the previous night. If it wasn't for poker this country would come to a crashing halt.

So don't be so fúcking ungrateful.

Running Bing

I dont think its the 10k in a week thats unbelievable, more the 500,00k a year aspect:eek: when someone says I make 10k a week people immediately think of this. As fastmachine said he hasnt been playing for a very long time at those limits. I would be seriously impressed if someone could average 10k a week over a very long period of time.

Just out of interest FM, and you dont have to answer if you dont want to, but since you started playing pro have you had many losing weeks? or had a big losing week yet?

The_Chopper

NickyOD wrote:

Back to the topic at hand. Ricky I don't think you should consider playing full time until you find a game that you beat consistently and can rely on as a solid income. I wouldn't rely on tournaments as they can be too volatile. Also you need to make sure you have no debts and be extrmemely well bankrolled.

Tournaments can definately be volatile, I agree. I think I might try internet poker for a while and make my decision based on whether I am winning or losing as per lafortezza's advice.
I was planning on sorting out all my finances before I even attempted this venture Nicky - but thanks for the concern.

On a side note I went playing the Gresham last night and decided to play poker according to super systems 2 as an experiment. I would raise in late position with any 2 cards, bet the flop if checked to me. I bet out my draws and stop people playing back at me if I had any piece of the flop. It actually worked quite well, and I haven't enjoyed a tournament so much in a long time.

I ended up coming 4th when I lost a 50/50 AQ vs JJ all in preflop and I didn't hit. I had 6 50/50's during the night - all of which I came out 2nd best so I have to be happy with the result.