Aer Lingus

GOAT_Ali

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1585006&issue_id=13831

A bunch of suits trying to make a killing off our Airline. Whatever it takes, make this airline a success.....But keep it to the people and for the people.

Eoin

Here's the full article so you don't need to register. Not surprisingly, it's quite emotive and light on any economic information or proposals.

Have you gone to the Aer Lingus site recently? Even if you go to www.aerlingus.ie, the default list of originating airports is American airports, not Irish. The Irish are now just another nationality who use the airline, so whether or not the public "own" the airline is quite irrevelant in my opinion.

If you are going to be proud of an airline, why not be proud of Ryanair who have done their bit to revolutionise the business and make a lot more destinations accessible and affordable to the average punter? Their service may be no frills, but Aer Lingus' is barely better these days anyway.

Selling off Aer Lingus is putting profit before pride
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DO you remember how you felt when you saw your first Aer Lingus plane with the shamrock on its tailfin?

I do. I'm smiling now to think about it - the eddy of excitement and pride that coursed through me. Look, it's one of ours!

I was taken on a day trip to Shannon airport from my grandparents' house in Co Limerick, back in the early 1970s when just visiting an airport to gape at everything was a treat.

I marvelled at so much that we take for granted now - at escalators, automatic doors and great sheets of glass showcasing the air strip. And on the other side of the windows were those jumbo jets which, you felt, belonged to all of us. The shamrock told you so.

Later, when I was 17 and working in France as an au pair, homesick and lonely, I would catch the airport bus on my day off to watch the afternoon Aer Lingus flight taxi across the tarmac and disgorge its girls in green. It was a link with home.

It's always a link with Ireland, wherever we are in the world and whatever our circumstances. After a poignant week in New York covering the 9-11 tragedy, I heaved a sigh of relief to see the Aer Lingus plane that would carry me back to Dublin.

Once on board and surrounded by the familiar livery, it almost felt as though I was home already.

Today, I'm unsophisticated enough to feel a catch in my throat still whenever I'm abroad and glimpse an Aer Lingus plane. Look, it's one of ours!

Maybe it's nostalgia, maybe it's because we're an island race, maybe it's as simple as the sentimental tug of a shamrock logo. But there's undeniably an umbilical cord between us and Aer Lingus.

We feel for it as we do for no other state body - not Bord na Mona, not the ESB or VHI. I guess it represented glamour at a time when we had precious little of that commodity in our lives. And even now, after air travel has shed its chic and pilots are no longer pin-ups, a residue of charm clings to the Aer Lingus name.

I never said it was logical. I'm just saying that's how it is.

As a result many of us feel uneasy when the Taoiseach speaks of selling our national airline, and stating it as categorically as if there's no scope for dissent. We've listened to the financial forensics, the need for investment in hideously expensive aircraft, the problems associated with governments bailing out indigent national carriers, and we understand we're in a Ryanair marketplace.

However, I have an atavistic reaction against that attitude of "it's unsustainable - let's sell". And I don't believe I'm alone. Look around: we're surrounded by men and women in grey suits with no room for sentiment and no grasp of anything except what is profit-driven. But we don't have to allow them free rein - we can say no to the corporate financiers.

Currently we're engrossed in a collective debate about the kind of race we're becoming post-boomtime. Too money-obsessed, too fixated on house prices, too engrossed by status?

That these issues are raised shows we're troubled about the way some traditional values were trampled underfoot in our stampede to become ritzier versions of the people we once were.

We keep agreeing we shouldn't sacrifice everything to mammon - even as we do precisely that. Well, here's our chance to show our mettle. Instead of delivering up Aer Lingus to the private sector we could try structuring a development package for our national airline - saving 3,500 jobs into the bargain.

Have we looked thoroughly into leasing aircraft, for example? I know it's cheaper but is buying a new fleet of transatlantic carriers the only solution? And why won't the Government invest in a profit-making national asset? Those much-brandished Brussels regulations only preclude any bail-out of a haemorrhaging Aer Lingus, not investment in it now when it's viable.

This Government has no qualms about sinking money into white elephants, as in e-voting (€52m frittered away) or health service computers which don't work (another €170m squandered). Aer Lingus has performed respectably in a difficult aviation market, however, and with Ryanair in its own backyard. If that doesn't deserve some outlay, what does?

Granted, this means acting on the basis of what Aer Lingus once stood for rather than what it represents now in the real world. But surely we have leeway to do that occasionally; surely all verdicts can't be ruled solely on the basis of economics. Hard-headed decisions can prove as mistaken as less pragmatic ones in the long run.

There's something else, of course. If Aer Lingus is sold then a stock market flotation seems the likeliest option and the memory of Eircom still rankles. We threw away a national asset there and we stand to lose another one here. National assets aren't so numerous that we can afford to be profligate with them.

A privatised Aer Lingus will be either subsumed into a larger company or flogged off piecemeal. It was paid for by our parents' and grandparents' taxes, and I object to corporate bodysnatchers filleting it for their own gain - treating themselves to yachts or luxury cars with their bonuses from the sale of an institution built up painstakingly by the taxes of previous generations.

Oh, they'll lob a few euro the exchequer's way, these financier boot boys, but once that's spent something irreplaceable will be gone. And all for a paltry €400m or so - that wouldn't even pay for half the Dublin Port Tunnel.

On RTE's Prime Time on Tuesday night my blood ran cold to hear Aer Lingus chief executive Dermot Mannion repeatedly insist there could be no guarantees about jobs or the airline's future after its sale. The only guarantee he would offer was the utter lack of them. And for that, we surrender Aer Lingus?

It's an emotive term, an island nation, but it's what we are.

We depend on the transportation of people and supplies in and out of the country, and air traffic is the obvious means.

We don't have much in the way of an air force or navy but we do have a well-run national carrier. We need Ryanair, too, to maintain competition but my heart shrinks at the thought of Ryanairs alone in our skies.

Meanwhile, I'm tired of decisions being taken on nothing but a financial basis. I'm tired of balance sheets being the only morality. I'm tired of an ethos which elevates ditching above fixing.

An auctioned-off Aer Lingus may retain the shamrock on its tailfin for brand and marketing purposes, but I can't imagine ever pointing to it and smiling: "Look it's one of ours!" It won't be ours any more.

jhegarty

The airline was one of the few things Ireland could really be proud of during the 'bad times,". i think it's important to keep it in public ownership....

what will selling it buy... a few miles of motorway ? ... its not like we are stuck for the money...

did anyone see the program on last night showing the launch for their first 747 ?

Eoin

jhegarty wrote:

The airline was one of the few things Ireland could really be proud of during the 'bad times,". i think it's important to keep it in public ownership....

what will selling it buy... a few miles of motorway ? ... its not like we are stuck for the money...

did anyone see the program on last night showing the launch for their first 747
?

I thought that the sale of Aer Lingus is being done to finance the company's expansion - the proceeds of the sale are to be directly invested in the company?

GOAT_Ali

Aer Lingus is and always will be a huge symbol for this country and I for one am extremely proud of it. Everytime I see that shamrock fly, I get goozebumps....It really is something to be proud of, your own national airline, something which for any strong country is essential. The Government and those at Aer Lingus should pull out all the stops to ensure it runs efficiently and to ensure that it does not become the property of the private sector who after they make their money and get fed up, can flog it off to the highest bidder, French or the British or the Americans or the German etc.
That's what I see possibly happening if the private sector take over. No country should sell off the crown jewels, so to speak and Aer Lingus to me is every bit as important a symblol to this country as the GAA or Waterford crystal. I wonder would anyone object to say Sky TV buying the GAA off us?

Bottom line is that the company belongs to every citizen of this country no one group or no bunch of suits should be given the authority to buy it and do whatever the hell they feel like with it.

FlutterinBantam

heh heh.... makes an old man laugh you lot.heh heh heh

What business has a Govt. in running an airline.... a political toy?

Hold us us to ransom when the Commies in the Unions want a bit of exitement?
Well paid "workers" costing way above the average to support and hanging on to work practices that vanished years ago..

Listen Aer Lingus is a good airline.....it needs big shillins to expand the fleet...the Govt....thats you and I folks.... are not too keen to splash out billions of OUR MONEY to expand....GO FIGURE!!!!!

Blackjack

you could always invest when it floats.

Blackjack

eoin_s wrote:

Have you gone to the Aer Lingus site recently? Even if you go to www.aerlingus.ie, the default list of originating airports is American airports, not Irish.

I think this may be to do with how the site is designed to react to your location - I'm in the UK, and when I go to the site (it also defaults to .com) the list of originating airports are the UK ones.

walshb

Well I'd rather the Govt threw as you say my money at making our national airline a success and to keep it for the people than throwing it at corrupt regimes in Africa, to the ridiculous Tribunals, to the shambolic health system etc etc. If it makes the Airline successful and keeps it Irish, I say it is money well spent.....

Nobody but the Irish people should be allowed the possibility of owning this national treasure and the guys in suits want to make a fast buck and move on.

BendiBus

walshb wrote:

Well I'd rather the Govt threw as you say my money at making our national airline a success and to keep it for the people

There's an issue with regard to unfair competition. In an industry where the private sector can provide all the servicies required, why should the Government give a capital subsidy to Aer Lingus to allow it compete against private operations such as Ryanair, BMI, Aer Arann, BA etc.

That's how Brussels sees it so the chance of the Government getting away with buying Aer Lingus a new fleet when the rest of the world has to borrow is very slim. Besides, being forced into the real world was the best thing to happen to Aer Lingus. The rose to the challenge well. Unlike for example Swissair and Sabena. If you want something to be proud of, let Aer Lingus continue to grow from strength to strength. Don't let it be held back with political interference.

flogen

I think this thread has served its purpose in News/Media and would gain from the greater knowledge of the subject which is available in Commuting / Transport. I cannot see a thread on the issue at the front page of the forum, I apologise to the mods there if it has already been covered (as I assume it has).

ballooba

Aer Lingus is a business. it's purpose is to make profit. Our government has no business in running a business and is very bad at achieving value for money.

It takes a brave politician to stand up to the unions as they count for a lot of votes. it is unfair that Private sector workers should have to drive the economy that supports overpaid semi state and state workers.

This company should be taken out of public hands and the workers who are surplus to requirements should be given the heave-ho. If they are not needed then why should they have a right to a job any more than anyone else.

gilroyb

walshb wrote:

Well I'd rather the Govt threw as you say my money at making our national airline a success and to keep it for the people than throwing it at corrupt regimes in Africa, to the ridiculous Tribunals, to the shambolic health system etc etc. If it makes the Airline successful and keeps it Irish, I say it is money well spent.....

Nobody but the Irish people should be allowed the possibility of owning this national treasure and the guys in suits want to make a fast buck and move on.

I presume this quoted post is dripping in sarcasm, because it couldn't be a serious, could it?

The government has a right to our money when it is providing a service which only the government can really provide such as healthcare or law and order. Aer Lingus needs to be sold so that it can grow and expand as the flag carrier, not be held back as the plaything of the unions and the government.

The majority of people in the country want it sold, and there has only been a small number of people speaking out in favour of keeping it in public hands.

DublinWriter

GOAT_Ali wrote:

A bunch of suits trying to make a killing off our Airline. Whatever it takes, make this airline a success.....But keep it to the people and for the people.

Suits like Willie Walsh? If it wasn't for Willie Walsh there would be no Aer Lingus right now.

People in this country seem to have very selective memories. Just look at what happened to Sabena - Belgium's ex national airline. Workers in Sabena lived in la-la land and expected the Belgian taxpayer to bail them out to the tune of hundreds of millions every year.

If Aer Lingus is to survive then it has to be commercially viable. Either that, or be prepared to have millions of Euro of your tax money propping it up.

That Indo article is so misty-eyed that it defies all reality. Remember that only the rich flew in the era so lovingly recalled by the author.

darkman2

DublinWriter wrote:

Suits like Willie Walsh? If it wasn't for Willie Walsh there would be no Aer Lingus right now.

People in this country seem to have very selective memories. Just look at what happened to Sabena - Belgium's ex national airline. Workers in Sabena lived in la-la land and expected the Belgian taxpayer to bail them out to the tune of hundreds of millions every year.

If Aer Lingus is to survive then it has to be commercially viable. Either that, or be prepared to have millions of Euro of your tax money propping it up.

That Indo article is so misty-eyed that it defies all reality. Remember that only the rich flew in the era so lovingly recalled by the author.

I agree, Willie Walsh done an amazing job with Aer Lingus and he was disgracefully treated for doing so. BA's gain is our loss.

On the sale, Aer Lingus MUST be sold IMO. The unions would rather destroy a company before letting it go private. They need capital for new aircraft etc...the government cant provide this.

PhoenixRising

darkman2 wrote:

I agree, Willie Walsh done an amazing job with Aer Lingus and he was disgracefully treated for doing so. BA's gain is our loss.

Wilie Walsh didn't save the the airline post 9/11- the Aer Lingus staff saved the airline. Every staff member made sacrifices post 9/11 to save the company and some 2,500 staff were let go. Let's remember that fact before we go praising Willie Walsh for the fantastic job he did.

As for the way he was treated - Willie Walsh's master plan from day one was to reduce the value of the company to a level where he and two of his cronies could buy the state asset from out under the Irish tax payer for a knockdown price. The Government rightly refused to sell it to him and he crawled off into the distance, tail between his legs, never to be seen round these parts again. Willie Walsh, the champion of our national airline indeed.

To the boys and girls in BA, brace yourselves.

ballooba

What sacrifices exactly did Aer Lingus staff make to save the airline post 9/11?

I'm not talking about those who lost their jobs as they are no longer Aer Lingus employees. Also they had no choice about being laid off and I'm sure they got handsome redundancy packages.

Willie Walsh reduced the value of the airline? I'd love to hear you explain that one.

Don't forget that unions blocked the sale of SDS to DHL. Where is SDS now?

markpb

eoin_s wrote:

Have you gone to the Aer Lingus site recently? Even if you go to www.aerlingus.ie, the default list of originating airports is American airports, not Irish.

That says more about your browser than about Aer Lingus

If you have your language settings set to EN-IE, Irish airports are listed first. Otherwise the American ones go first.

PhoenixRising

ballooba wrote:

What sacrifices exactly did Aer Lingus staff make to save the airline post 9/11?

Is that question asked in jest? The staff accepted so many changes to work practices in the last 5 years that they would be too numerous to list. Just do a search of newspaper articles. Ask any Aer Lingus staff member that question and you'd be lucky not to get a slap!

ballooba wrote:

I'm not talking about those who lost their jobs as they are no longer Aer Lingus employees. Also they had no choice about being laid off and I'm sure they got handsome redundancy packages.

The vast majority of redundancies were voluntary if I recall correctly.

ballooba wrote:

Willie Walsh reduced the value of the airline? I'd love to hear you explain that one.

He drastically downsized Aer Lingus Cargo, which was one of the most profitable parts of the airline at the time. They now only carry a small fraction of what they used to carry. Plenty of lost revenue there.

He cut frequencies on many of the major routes to Europe, most of which still haven't returned. For instance, you can only travel to major European cites like Zurich on 2 days midweek now.

The net fleet size reduced under Willie Walsh's reign.

Failure to invest any meaningful amount of money back into the airline. It was profitable from 2002 onwards let's not forget. For instance, the upgrade of the in-flight entertainment systems on the transatlantic fleet is only being addressed now under the new management. Other assets sold off, like two flight simulators owned by the company.

He was purposefully inflaming the unions to create industrial unrest, reducing it's attractiveness to potential investors.

I could go on, but I'll leave it there for the time being. Willie knew what he was doing. He wanted to buy the airline off the tax payer for a song and a dance, and when his plan was foiled he headed for the hills.

ballooba wrote:

Don't forget that unions blocked the sale of SDS to DHL. Where is SDS now?

I don't know what you are getting at here. I never suggested the airline shouldn't be privatised. In fact I think it does need to be privatised, and sooner rather than later. It should be done correctly however, with the airline, the staff, and the Irish taxpayers interest being protected as far as possible.

darkman2

PhoenixRising wrote:

Wilie Walsh didn't save the the airline post 9/11- the Aer Lingus staff saved the airline. Every staff member made sacrifices post 9/11 to save the company and some 2,500 staff were let go. Let's remember that fact before we go praising Willie Walsh for the fantastic job he did.

As for the way he was treated - Willie Walsh's master plan from day one was to reduce the value of the company to a level where he and two of his cronies could buy the state asset from out under the Irish tax payer for a knockdown price. The Government rightly refused to sell it to him and he crawled off into the distance, tail between his legs, never to be seen round these parts again. Willie Walsh, the champion of our national airline indeed.

To the boys and girls in BA, brace yourselves.

That is absolute rubbish IMO. The staff did a certain amount. But it was Willie Walsh that had to face down the unions for the companies survival. He was very proud of Aer Lingus, himself a former Aer Lingus pilot and he had the right idea for the Airline. That airline would not exist today without his type of grit and determination.


Though since youve got an opinion on this, why not validate it by telling those of us who want it sold how else it is going to raise capital?

PhoenixRising

darkman2 wrote:

That is absolute rubbish IMO. The staff did a certain amount. But it was Willie Walsh that had to face down the unions for the companies survival. He was very proud of Aer Lingus, himself a former Aer Lingus pilot and he had the right idea for the Airline. That airline would not exist today without his type of grit and determination.


Though since youve got an opinion on this, why not validate it by telling those of us who want it sold how else it is going to raise capital?

Read my previous post. I want to see the airline privatised.

It annoys me to see people falling over themselves to praise Willie Walsh, when it was the staff that made all the sacrifices to save the airline. In fact Willie and his top management goons even gave themselves a pay rise in the middle of his crusade to save the national airline, while asking staff for more and more concessions. Funny how people don't remember that.

ballooba

The company's annual report would tend to disagree with your assertion that Willie Walsh devalued the airline. Even unions can't fudge P&L or Balance Sheet (Page 2).
http://www.flyaerlingus.com/Corporate/Current_Report/AL_AnnualReport2004.pdf

With regard to changes in work practices, private sector workers usually don't receive compensation for changes in work practices. We are just glad to keep our jobs if the company is struggling.

Voluntary redundancies are voluntary on an individual basis but a certain number of people have to go. If they don't leave voluntarily then they will have to be removed by other means. Usually people will leave, because they planned to reitre anyway or because they are good employees and they have other options.

PhoenixRising

ballooba wrote:

The company's annual report would tend to disagree with your assertion that Willie Walsh devalued the airline. Even unions can't fudge P&L or Balance Sheet (Page 2).
http://www.flyaerlingus.com/Corporate/Current_Report/AL_AnnualReport2004.pdf

I'm not disputing that the business did generally do quite well under Willie Walsh. I'll give the guy credit there, but you and I both know that a company's P&L account is not always reflective of how much a company is worth. It is only one of many factors considered.

ballooba wrote:

With regard to changes in work practices, private sector workers usually don't receive compensation for changes in work practices. We are just glad to keep our jobs if the company is struggling.

That was my point - that most workers accepted new work practices or redundancy without question or compensation post 9/11 to try to save the airline. It's a documented fact.

ballooba

PhoenixRising wrote:

I'll give the guy credit there, but you and I both know that a company's P&L account is not always reflective of how much a company is worth.

Indeed P&L would be a poor indicator of worth. That's why we use the Balance Sheet.

Stimpyone

I'm with PhoenixRising on this one, in my opinion Willie Walsh was a nasty piece of work but for some reason the media made him out to be some sort of darling. Make no mistake he jumped before he was pushed.

Remember this fiasco....

http://www.unison.ie/search/frame_search.php3?span=web&words=leaked%20memo%20willie%20walsh
THE former chief executive of Aer Lingus, Willie Walsh, has refused to say if he was one of the eight members of management who received the damaging "go or be pushed" memo published last week.

Mr Walsh, whose appetite for redundancies and no-frills helped turn around the ailing State airline, suggested that he was out of the loop now.

Speaking from London, he said he wasn't familiar with the media coverage of the controversy and didn't know which document was being referred to.

He told the Sunday Independent last night: "I am out of Aer Lingus now.

"Even if I did see it, given that I don't work there, it's inappropriate for me to deal with it," he said.

"It is a pity actually that documents are getting leaked to damage Aer Lingus.

"I am sure I got thousands of emails and memos during my time at Aer Lingus.

"It is an Aer Lingus issue."

But Siptu's national industrial officer, Michael Halpenny, said: "He [Mr Walsh] had no problem commenting on the privatisation of Aer Lingus at a Chamber of Commerce function in May when he was chief executive designate at BA. For him to turn around now and say it would not be proper to comment would seem a bit selective."

Willie Walsh, who started as the new head of British Airways last month, said it was inappropriate for him to comment on the damning business plan that explored aggressive ways of achieving the 1,300 job cuts sought by the State airline.

The 16-page plan was drawn up in July last year by the human resources department of Aer Lingus, at a time of fraught relations between management and staff.

Its unorthodox methods included making life difficult for staff by introducing "adverse changes" in shift pattern, introducing "tacky" uniforms and giving some employees a tap on the shoulder to tell them they had no future in the organisation.

The document was leaked last week, prompting widespread condemnation and a new industrial relations crisis at the beleaguered national airline.

Aer Lingus refused to say who authored the report, but confirmed that it emanated from human resources. The director of HR is Liz White, who joined Aer Lingus from Eircom and reportedly has a PhD in psychology.

Last week's outcry passed over the head of the former CEO, who is the new boss at British Airways. He takes over from the current incumbent, Sir Rod Eddington, in September.

The document is now the subject of inquiries by the Department of Enterprise Trade and Employment, the Department of Transport and the powerful Dail Committee on Transport.





Believe it or not his tenure was filled with stunts like this which took an extremely large toll on the moral of the company especially the front line staff, who for some reason the public held accountable for the degradation of the service not Willie in his ivory tower.

Aer Lingus should be floated on the markets as soon as possible, I believe the proposal tabled by the government is to retain a controlling 25% of the company so that would put paid to any concerns of assets stripping, it would also free up capital to invest, which is badly needed for new long haul aircraft.

http://www.rte.ie/business/2006/0328/aerlingus.html

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/topstories/7692236?view=Eircomnet

One things for sure though Siptu are going to spin the bejaysus out of this, But the truth is if Aer Lingus don't expand soon this argument will be moot.

MrPudding

GOAT_Ali wrote:

The Government and those at Aer Lingus should pull out all the stops to ensure it runs efficiently.....

That is what they are doing. Efficiency & semistate seems to be mutually exclusive in this country.

I can remember the exact figures but Ryanair last year carried something 4 times the passengers wih less than half the staff. You may not like it but it is efficent.

MrP

parsi

ballooba wrote:

Don't forget that unions blocked the sale of SDS to DHL. Where is SDS now?

I wonder where would it be if it was sold to DHL ? Right now its subsumed back into An Post and we can still get Courier delivery from our local PO. If it was with DHL how would it have worked out ? It's grand for DHL in Germany - Deutsche Post effectively merged DHLs low end back into itself but over here....

walshb

Willie Walsh was an extremely highly paid man for the job he did in Aer Lingus, he didn't get what he wanted which was the sale of the airline and he disappeared to take up the most prestigious job in the Airline world. If that doesn't show where his loyalties lie, I don't know what does. Why didn't he stay and work hard for Aer Lingus and keep up this good work, no he wanted the airline for himself and a bunch of his cronies to make as much money as possible and then he could sell it to who the hell he liked....Well I think it's disgusting that the Government are even thinking about selling off our Airline, shake it up do whatever it takes, hire the right men and women for the task, but never sell it from the people

GOAT_Ali

If this is not something worth fighting for and saving I don't know what is.
Have we nothing on this Island that is not for sale?, sad state of affairs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Aerlingus.a320-214.ei-cva.750pix.jpg

motrocco

Just a comment that is never mentioned on TV or discussions.

the one extremely valulable commodity that Aer Lingus has is the right to land in Heathrow and the States. this alone it worht a fortune, don't believe me? ask someone who works there, it been explained to me before. I'd say the first thing if it get's privatised would be the partial selling or whole selling of these landing rights. this is all I can really think of that would be worth asset stripping from the company and I'll put 50yo on it that this is the first item of business when it's privatised. BA will buy the rights, then push out Aerlingus leaving us (Irish people) with crap options on landing (times/slots/terminals) higher landing fees (if there not high enough already!) and then the money men will take this cash, mess up the rest of the company and leg it, leaving the goverment/unions/staff to sort out the mess and a load of planes that are to costly to land @ even the nearest destinations due to the sale of landing rights.

Could someone who works in the air line industry please make a further comment on this as it's not being mentioned at all.

Don't privatise!

Stimpyone

motrocco wrote:

Just a comment that is never mentioned on TV or discussions.

the one extremely valulable commodity that Aer Lingus has is the right to land in Heathrow and the States. this alone it worht a fortune, don't believe me? ask someone who works there, it been explained to me before. I'd say the first thing if it get's privatised would be the partial selling or whole selling of these landing rights. this is all I can really think of that would be worth asset stripping from the company and I'll put 50yo on it that this is the first item of business when it's privatised. BA will buy the rights, then push out Aerlingus leaving us (Irish people) with crap options on landing (times/slots/terminals) higher landing fees (if there not high enough already!) and then the money men will take this cash, mess up the rest of the company and leg it, leaving the goverment/unions/staff to sort out the mess and a load of planes that are to costly to land @ even the nearest destinations due to the sale of landing rights.

Could someone who works in the air line industry please make a further comment on this as it's not being mentioned at all.

Don't privatise!

As per my previous mail. If the flotation goes ahead as the government recommendations then it would have a controlling factor of 25%. Therefore nothing could be sold without its approval thus avoiding asset stripping including landing rights.

dowlingm

British Airways has been fully private for a long time. Does anyone on this board think British people feel that it's less the national carrier? Thatcher proved as much when she criticised BA's decision to paint weird patterns on the tailfin instead of the British flag - the last of those fins are pretty much gone now, especially because foreign passengers liked the Britishness of the Chatham design! Does anyone think Ryanair is government owned because it has the harp on the tail?

Aer Lingus doesn't just carry the shamrock because of its ownership, but because of its attachment to Irish people. It's a brand which has a financial value. Willie Walsh got rid of the shamrock on several 737s to promote the dot com logo and the manner of his withdrawal from European cargo angered emigrants bringing dead relations home and the exporters who got little notice of the action.

As for the LHR slots - many LHR passengers are merely connecting to onward services. Many of these destinations in Europe are now directly reached from Dublin and the longhaul destinations will hopefully follow with the new Dubai and Qatar services hopefully being the first of many. Prioritising LHR arguably helps British Airways and Qantas more than it helps Aer Lingus, and as the withdrawal from Gatwick showed.

If EI expands post-stopover to Toronto, then I wouldn't have to come home via Heathrow six months of the year - Air Transat have already said they won't take up scheduled rights to Dublin while the stopover is there because they can't make money with the Shannon stop. However, they need money to buy new longhaul aircraft for north America, South Africa and the far east but if the government puts the money in there is likely to be an objection to the European commission.

Also - the new EU-US agreement will allow any European airline to serve the US from Dublin so EI's traffic rights won't be exclusive then.

For EoinS and MarkPB - at the top of the aerlingus website is a country box - change it to Hungary and Budapest goes to the top of the list

FlutterinBantam

A few facts if I may..

1.. All redundancies in Aer Lingus were totally voluntary.....

2.. Willie Walsh did not save Aer Lingus....He did change things though an bring a more commercial/realistic economic strategy to the company.

3. If a route will pay ..Aer lingus will fly it...not as in previous years ..stick to loss making routes ad infinitum.

4..Most of the major changes in work practices have yet to come..... the days when Ryanair baggage handlers dispute grounds all airlines EXCEPT Ryanair are hopefully coming to a close.

5.. Selling Heathrow slots would be like buying a racehorse and cutting off its legs

6.. With the ticket prices on offer at the moment ,unit costs must be cut ..thats the problem..otherwise alternate sources of income must be sought...eg baggage charges...onboard sales....excess baggage... change fees.There will also be a marked deterioration in after sales service... Don't expect to speak to a "live one" in Aer Lingus anytime soon

walshb

I do not claim to be an expert on the issue but is Aer Lingus currently a success as regards it making a profit?. From what I've been reading, it is operating at a profit, if so why sell it so a certain group of people can get seriously wealthy.

FlutterinBantam

Simple answer ... not making enough to fund capital expenditure

ballooba

parsi wrote:

I wonder where would it be if it was sold to DHL ? Right now its subsumed back into An Post and we can still get Courier delivery from our local PO. If it was with DHL how would it have worked out ? It's grand for DHL in Germany - Deutsche Post effectively merged DHLs low end back into itself but over here....

We have a crappy parcel service that takes days. And we're a few hundred million lighter than we would have been. Any business I know uses couriers now instead of SDS because An Post are so bad and just as expensive.

ballooba

GOAT_Ali wrote:

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independe...issue_id=13831

A bunch of suits trying to make a killing off our Airline. Whatever it takes, make this airline a success.....But keep it to the people and for the people.

GOAT_Ali wrote:

Aer Lingus is and always will be a huge symbol for this country and I for one am extremely proud of it. Everytime I see that shamrock fly, I get goozebumps....It really is something to be proud of, your own national airline, something which for any strong country is essential. The Government and those at Aer Lingus should pull out all the stops to ensure it runs efficiently and to ensure that it does not become the property of the private sector who after they make their money and get fed up, can flog it off to the highest bidder, French or the British or the Americans or the German etc.
That's what I see possibly happening if the private sector take over. No country should sell off the crown jewels, so to speak and Aer Lingus to me is every bit as important a symblol to this country as the GAA or Waterford crystal. I wonder would anyone object to say Sky TV buying the GAA off us?

Bottom line is that the company belongs to every citizen of this country no one group or no bunch of suits should be given the authority to buy it and do whatever the hell they feel like with it.

GOAT_Ali wrote:

If this is not something worth fighting for and saving I don't know what is.
Have we nothing on this Island that is not for sale?, sad state of affairs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Aerlingus.a320-214.ei-cva.750pix.jpg

This is your whole contribution to the thread you have started. You don't appear to have much of an argument except nostalgia and a fear of change. Is that much of your national identity tied up in n airline that you would be prepared to subsidise it indefinitely? If Aer lingus was sold overnight would you wake up in the morning and say "I don't even know who I am anymore".

GOAT_Ali

Well mate, I'm not an expert on the subject the same way I'm no expert on say the GAA or Waterford crystal, but it doesn't take a genius to figure that Aer Lingus is a huge symbol to Ireland, a fantastic airline, a currently profitable airline and surely you do not find it strange that an Irishman would be extremely proud of it and would be disgusted at the thoughts of it going into foreign ownership now do you. I started the thread to hear the views, I didn't necessarily want every single little detail of Aer Lingus' history. Also does anyone else consider the Airline to be a national treasure and the selling of National treasures will affect and annoy people....

Surely with all the 'brains' on this island, with all the money they keep telling us we have and the national pride, (though diminishing it seems) we can make Aer Lingus even better than it currently is, without allowing greedy businessmen in to make huge amounts of money. It's our Airline and should stay so....

GOAT_Ali

I'll ask you a question....if you woke up tomorrow and realised it was not sold, would you be pissed off at this and worried that maybe your airline ticket was going to cost you a couple of Euro extra

The answer to your question is I would be disgusted and annoyed to see this airline sold from the people and if being patriotic and passionate about Ireland's assets is wrong, I don't wanna be right

FlutterinBantam

Ireland had a semi-state shipping company years ago..... it was sold off... closed.... died.... became defunct.. or whatever......Dublin Port is now full of state of the art ferries.... the sky didn't fall...the sun didn't stop shinin. ....

DublinWriter

walshb wrote:

Willie Walsh was an extremely highly paid man for the job he did in Aer Lingus, he didn't get what he wanted which was the sale of the airline and he disappeared to take up the most prestigious job in the Airline world. If that doesn't show where his loyalties lie, I don't know what does. Why didn't he stay and work hard for Aer Lingus and keep up this good work, no he wanted the airline for himself and a bunch of his cronies to make as much money as possible and then he could sell it to who the hell he liked....

If it wasn't for Willie Walsh there would be no Aer Lingus today. End of story.

We begrudge talented and financially successful people in this country, but that's another thread.

People conviently forgot what a financial basket case the company was up to 2001. At one stage Aer Lingus was only a couple of months away from complete financial collapse.

It's a business existing in the economic reality of today, whether you, me or anyone else likes it. And if it wants to be viable in the world of today then it has to play by todays rules.

Treat Aer Lingus for what it is. It's a business, not some castle down in Kerry or some viking relic in a museum.

BendiBus

GOAT_Ali wrote:

I'm no expert on say the GAA or Waterford crystal

That's the second time you've mentioned Waterford Crystal. Waterford Crystal is a PLC owned by shareholders from all over the world. Just like Aer Lingus wants to be. But Aer Lingus is in much better shape.

dowlingm

One of the good things about EI going public will be the ability of their people to speak more freely about their commercial ops and how the dead hand of Aer Rianta (who have only just got around to building a transfer facility for god's sake) the DoT and the Shannon lobby have hampered their efforts to expand in the face of Ryanair who have no restrictions because their market (Europe) is fully deregulated.

Right now, DM has to say the right things because his masters are political appointees.

ballooba

GOAT_Ali wrote:

...a fantastic airline, a currently profitable airline and surely you do not find it strange that an Irishman would be extremely proud of it and would be disgusted at the thoughts of it going into foreign ownership now do you.

Fantastic airline? When's the last time you flew with them? What makes them so fantastic.

Also who says it has to go into foreign ownership. If it's so great and so important to our national identity then why wouldn't an Irish group buy it.

GOAT_Ali wrote:

Also does anyone else consider the Airline to be a national treasure and the selling of National treasures will affect and annoy people....

I don't it's a business. You can't preserve it in a glass case like 'national treasure'. It has to adapt and change to compete and survive. It's an expensive toy for a governement to have.

GOAT_Ali wrote:

Surely with all the 'brains' on this island, with all the money they keep telling us we have and the national pride, (though diminishing it seems) we can make Aer Lingus even better than it currently is, without allowing greedy businessmen in to make huge amounts of money. It's our Airline and should stay so....

Businessmen run businesses. Hence the use of the word 'business'. Governments run nations.

ishmael whale

Stimpyone wrote:

As per my previous mail. If the flotation goes ahead as the government recommendations then it would have a controlling factor of 25%. Therefore nothing could be sold without its approval thus avoiding asset stripping including landing rights.

I'm not sure its that pat. If someone owns 75% of Aer Lingus and wants to use the slots for a more profitable route, surely they would be able to complain to the European Commission if the Irish Government tried to prevent them on national interest grounds.

Stimpyone

ishmael whale wrote:

I'm not sure its that pat. If someone owns 75% of Aer Lingus and wants to use the slots for a more profitable route, surely they would be able to complain to the European Commission if the Irish Government tried to prevent them on national interest grounds.

Eh, what would it have to do with the european commision?. The government would simply be a majorty stake holder in a floated company.

They could object to anything for whatever reason, it's their prerogative.

dowlingm

Spain has had to commit to divesting itself of "golden shares" (which allow control government voting strength doesn't provide) because of EU pressure. This includes Iberia.

walshb

Willie bloody Walsh my arse, he's no Bill Gates or Rockefeller. He was paid to do a job, he did it and was paid handsomely but to make out he was the airlines saviour is stretchingit a bit. The moment he didn't get his way he ran, so there's his loyaly and so called love for the airline. The people of Aer Lingus saved the airline and the men in suits also played their part as we all know leadership is essential for any business, but a guy who runs the first time he gets refused something is not the type of guy I'd trust to run a national airline, he's a damn liability. Why the urgent necessity to buy the airline, it's not as if he was going to be on the streets and short of cash, he had a very good job, all the perks and benefits and prestige and still he was not satisfied. That airline is part of our identity and cannot be sold, business is business I know, but sometimes pride and patriotism come first. The selling of it is nowhere near essential. The airline is profitable, has class and can continue to do so staying Irish.

I do happen to believe that certain things in a countries society should always remain controlled by that country and Ireland being a relatively small country should at least be able to say that it has got its own Airline. I've no problem whatsoever with new airlines being set up by private enterprise here, making the market more competitive, but as a safety net, keep something that the people can never lose. I can't think of a better candidate than one's own national airline

GOAT_Ali

Balooba, lets say it is sold and sold to an Irish consortium, so what???
What is to stop this crowd from stripping it and selling it to whoever they want. The answer is nothing could stop them and where the hell does that leave Aer Lingus, one of Ireland's greatest discoveries.....Surely I'm not in the minority in being shocked at the possibility of this happening?

I just wouldn't be too happy to suddenly realise that Aer Lingus which has dominated our skies for over 50 yrs is now no longer Irish, no longer carries the shamrock and has no more links or ties to this country, all for MAYBE slightly cheaper flights, little more leg room, extra free drinks or whatever so called privatisation brings???!!!

ballooba

How is Aer Lingus one of our greatest discoveries? It's a company, it was formed, not discovered. You seem to have this strange obsession with comparing it to a precious stone or metal (or 'treasure'). Indeed precious stones and metals are discovered, airlines are not.

Because the government will keep having top subsidise it. i.e. My taxes will have to keep subsidising semi-state workers because they don't have to make a profit.

What makes you think the businessmen are any more greedy than the unions? All they want is an ESOT. The same as they got in Eircom and they seek in ESB.

GOAT_Ali

Look Balooba, obviously we'll never agree on this one. You give me the impression that really nothing is sacred or nothing should be considered truly Irish and basically anything is for sale in your eyes. Wheteher it's sold or not it is without question a true symbol of this country, no matter what spin you or any greedy businessmen put on it, company, profits, expansion, competitive, diversify etc etc. I'm not a Union lover and maybe the people in Aer Lingus have been riding the system, but that does not give anyone the right to use this as an excuse to sell this airline, fix it and move on, though it's doing pretty well at the moment regardless. I also do not discurage competition and if it takes other airlines to move here and make Aer Lingus fight for every fare, so be it as long as we can keep the airline thoroughly Irish. What's the harm in that??