Dodgy Estate Agents

godtabh

I've been looking to by a first home for the last couple of months.

I came across a property that was nice and I bid on it. The estate agent was pushing me and pushing me to make a higher bid saying the owner wanted more and if I went higher the owner would sell straight away.

I had a budget in mind and bid what I felt was reasonable. Estate would ring back every day saying I’d been out bid forcing the bids closer and closer to what the owner wanted but out of my reach.

I get a call saying the owner had agreed a price and that this was the last chance to bid (price was €5k more than what the over wanted and €20k over the listing price) and I said I’d leave it.

On subsequent chats with the estate agent (about other properties) I find out that the apartment had been sold.

About a week ago I pass the apartment and see a sign out side again with another estate agents and I enquire bout it. House was never sold and it seems that the first estate agent was making up bids to force the price up.

Is this practice wide spread and if so how can you tell if bids are genuine? It’s all very off putting. Is there anything you can do about this?

P.S found out some stuff about the apartment block so decided to leave it so I’m back to square one!

Dan_B

There was a program on the box last night showing similar practices in London. It was a real eye opener.

Estate agencies are unregulated and can pretty much do what they like.
A lot of it is un ethical but not against the law.

In order to secure a commision to sell a property they will over value it, they then try hard sell tactics similar to what you have experienced to meet the over valuation.

Hagar

The industry is rife with practices like that. My wife worked for 3 different estate agents, two of whom were household names, and they all conducted business like that. Property was commonly sold to cronies at knock-down prices and the owners were told there was no interest in the property and that was all it was worth.
She was so digusted with the tactics in the last place she just left.
Joe Public is being screwed left, right and centre.

Tazz T

Name and shame.

godtabh

Tazz T wrote:

Name and shame.

I dont want to do that incase its against the rules.

All I'll say it was in Lucan

Hagar

Tazz T wrote:

Name and shame.

Just check the Golden Pages.:mad:

Beruthiel

kearnsr wrote:

All I'll say it was in Lucan

would this be the agency with an american working for them?
cos when I went to buy a house that he was selling, I could see the slime from 50 paces and the amount of 'other bidders' shooting the price of the house up was unbelieveable.
I told him where to stick the house in the end.
I felt durty just talking to the fecker.

lesson from that bbc programme last night is don't ever, ever trust an estate agent

godtabh

Hagar wrote:

Just check the Golden Pages.:mad:

Is there any good ones out there?

A family friend is an estate agent and any properties I look at I run it by her. What she tells me and what the estate agents tell are often very very different.

Really p!sses me off

godtabh

Beruthiel wrote:

would this be the agency with an american working for them?

lesson from that bbc programme last night is don't ever, ever trust an estate agent

Dont know if they had an american working for them as I was dealing with a woman but from what people have being saying it could be any one of the companies working in Lucan.

Wish I had off seen that bbc program last night.

Hagar

If I find a good one I'll let you know. Don't hold your breath in the meantime.

MikeHunt

Seriously, give us the name, raise awareness rather than letting them continue to rip even more people off. It is the Internet after all ;-)

MorningStar

The only thing you can know for sure is the estate agent wants you to pay the most so he gets the greatest commision. That can mean he will sell cheap to a regular customer like a developer or a potential regular customer. Effectively you can't trust them as there is nobody actually checking on them.

godtabh

MorningStar wrote:

The only thing you can know for sure is the estate agent wants you to pay the most so he gets the greatest commision. That can mean he will sell cheap to a regular customer like a developer or a potential regular customer. Effectively you can't trust them as there is nobody actually checking on them.

So your saying he'll sell cheap for bulk customers and expensive for one of buyers? Its poxy. Its so hard to get on the ladder and then there are fcukers like this that make it even harder

Cantab.

Dan_B wrote:

There was a program on the box last night showing similar practices in London. It was a real eye opener.

Estate agencies are unregulated and can pretty much do what they like.
A lot of it is un ethical but not against the law.

In order to secure a commision to sell a property they will over value it, they then try hard sell tactics similar to what you have experienced to meet the over valuation.

I thought it was an excellent program too.

My friend (who has incidently just started out as an estate agent) just bought a small house in Dun Laoighaire. His brother is a commercial property developer and so is well connected. Basically my mate got his house at a knock-down price because he got his brother to give the agent dealing with the house €5,000 cash + future business in return for duping the sellers into selling way below the market price (three sons and daughters of the former owner who all live in America).

The sons and daughters were happy cos they got their share of the will and had no idea as to the actual cost of the property. The € $ exchange rate was also pretty good. My friend got his house for about €50k less in the end.

Everyone was happy you might say, but I think there's an inherent dishonesty in these kinds of dealings.

Moral of the story: don't believe anything an estate agent tells you. Bribe them if you can, but certainly do not let them take you for a ride.

Victor

Tazz T wrote:

Name and shame.

I would prefer not to libel people, but can one tarnish the reputation of an estate agent?

One little bit of hope is auctioneers, they can't / won't mess about as easily because the have a licence to protect.

Cantab.

Victor wrote:

I would prefer not to libel people, but can one tarnish the reputation of an estate agent?

One little bit of hope is auctioneers, they can't / won't mess about as easily because the have a licence to protect.

I wouldn't dare say anything bad about an estate agent or accuse them of duping you. They'll simply call up their solicitors and you'll have a letter dropping in your door before you know it. They are extremely careful about their 'reputation'.

godtabh

Cantab. wrote:

I wouldn't dare say anything bad about an estate agent or accuse them of duping you. They'll simply call up their solicitors and you'll have a letter dropping in your door before you know it. They are extremely careful about their 'reputation'.

I thought to libel some one what you siad about them would have to damage their reputation? Estate agent's reputations cant get any worse!

But as I said its a well know estate agents in Lucan village but based all over the country. If people know lucan village they'll be able to work it out.

thenobody

Stay well well away from Douglas Newman Good

lomb

kearnsr wrote:

I thought to libel some one what you siad about them would have to damage their reputation? Estate agent's reputations cant get any worse!

But as I said its a well know estate agents in Lucan village but based all over the country. If people know lucan village they'll be able to work it out.

Id believe it i heard a very dodgy story where a property in lucan was sold cheap to a person who was also selling their house through the same agent. i believe she got it for 5% under market value. there was alot of interest but people were told to basically bugger off...

MorningStar

Remax in the states are known for quick selling but not best price. So if you want to buy a house you go to a Remax agent but if you want to sell you go to a different agent. The Remax model there is apparently based on many commisions rather than few larger one. As it is a world wide franchise I would doubt it is much different elsewhere.

godtabh

thenobody wrote:

Stay well well away from Douglas Newman Good

Haha spot on!

They had 2 houses on sale last month and now other estate agents are dealing with them. Something dodgy there!

Oral Slang

Stay well away from Castle Estate Agents - I've dealt with dozens of estate agents in the last while & I've never come across one as bad as Castle.

I started a thread a few weeks ago about my experiences with them, don't know if I named them though!

speriamo

thenobody wrote:

Stay well well away from Douglas Newman Good

Amen to that. The "agents" in a certain branch in the city centre, with one exception, were the most unprofessional ever. Had not a clue about prices, location or turning up on time......

lomb

frankly and this is not libelous as there is proof, dng are/were selling a house on haddington road ballsbridge, belonging to that famous 'architect' (primetime) david grant. basically dublin corporation had a demolition order against the back extension of the house, done by david grant without planning permission and there was a registered court order pending for demolition.
on DNGs website, they were listing the extension as a FEATURE!!!!!!
they can sue me if they want but dng are cowboys and i think any court in this land would agree..

The_Conductor

From previous experience add Gunne Residential to your list here too. They are handling all the Adamstown Clondalkin development (though they call it Lucan for some reason......)

Sponge Bob

smccarrick wrote:

They are handling all the Adamstown Clondalkin development (though they call it Lucan for some reason......)

Certain parts of Clondalkin are ONLY called Lucan because Liam Lawlor bribed the post office years ago. The post office are investigating this ...for at least 3 years but have not concluded the investigation yet . As the issue is still under investigation it is misleading of Gunne to call Adamstown 'lucan' although calling Adamstown 'adamstown' on its own is correct .

An Post have already agreed with the main developers to provide a separtate postcode for Adamstown but only when that investigation is complete , Dublin 26 or Dublin 28 IIRC . A few suspects in An Post may not have retired yet though.

Peace

Well when i was buying about 6 months ago 2 seperate agents for an Agency that has its roots in the US and a bog ballon on their signs offered me houses unde the stamp radar if i paid extra in cash in an envelope.

Both times the house was 317,500 and they were asking for 2k-2.5k cash in hand to keep it at that price. Fvcking crooks. Complete scum.

The_Conductor

Peace wrote:

Well when i was buying about 6 months ago 2 seperate agents for an Agency that has its roots in the US and a bog ballon on their signs offered me houses unde the stamp radar if i paid extra in cash in an envelope.

Both times the house was 317,500 and they were asking for 2k-2.5k cash in hand to keep it at that price. Fvcking crooks. Complete scum.

They are not normally that blatant about it.
The usual is they charge you for any furniture or fittings seperately (this can be sizeable, I'm aware of one guy who paid 20,000 for fixtures and fittings). Revenue must have copped on to what was going on.

If you have proof of a request for a cash payment (as opposed to an allegation) report it. At the end of the day it is tax evasion, and every tax payer pays for frauds committed by estate agents in this manner.

Peace

No other proof than he said she said...

I didn't take the deal they were offering on either house, the first house wasn't close enough to city centre/commuter route. The second I bought but i said no to the dodge deal.

Strangely enough about 10 minutes after i turned his cash deal down, there was another bid on the house pushing the price from 317,500 to 320,000. I eventually got the house at 326k.

Sponge Bob

the bidder was probably the estate agents brother , tough luck there peace.

had you stuck to a price ceiling you coulda made it under the 317k barrier and saved yourself 9k (asking) and 10k (stamp duty) . One should catch the estate agent on the last day of the month and watch them try to make their sales targets . If they appear 'very eager' on the 29th then screw them. If they made their target they will screw you .

MorningStar

Peace wrote:

No other proof than he said she said...

I didn't take the deal they were offering on either house, the first house wasn't close enough to city centre/commuter route. The second I bought but i said no to the dodge deal.

Strangely enough about 10 minutes after i turned his cash deal down, there was another bid on the house pushing the price from 317,500 to 320,000. I eventually got the house at 326k.

To be honest it sounds like you were a little nieve. Up to 10K on fixtures and fittings is standard around the lower stamp limit. The tax office know about this as common practive.
Your solicitor should have told you this was standard practice. I have paid a lot of money for terrible furniture over hte years. How much did this cost you in the end? €10K?

I have managed to get see property first and then buy it for a €100 tip on seeing the property first. Not that is a lot less moral than fixtures and fittings.

Cantab.

MorningStar wrote:

To be honest it sounds like you were a little nieve. Up to 10K on fixtures and fittings is standard around the lower stamp limit. The tax office know about this as common practive.
Your solicitor should have told you this was standard practice. I have paid a lot of money for terrible furniture over hte years. How much did this cost you in the end? €10K?

I have managed to get see property first and then buy it for a €100 tip on seeing the property first. Not that is a lot less moral than fixtures and fittings.

€100 tip?! Try adding about two zeros to the end of that sum - if the seller's a sucker (not very unusual - after all it's the estate agent who'll be able to tell you this), you'll make this money back several times over.

€5000 cash up front and €5,000 on sale is usually the way it works (so I've been told).

MorningStar

Cantab. wrote:

€100 tip?! Try adding about two zeros to the end of that sum - if the seller's a sucker (not very unusual - after all it's the estate agent who'll be able to tell you this), you'll make this money back several times over.

€5000 cash up front and €5,000 on sale is usually the way it works (so I've been told).

€100 tip is just to see the place first not for the house deal that is different. Fixtures and fitting is standard to the majority of 2nd hand sales is all I am saying. There is of course other corruptions and as I pointed out the dodging deal there actually cost the buyer €10k or theres abouts.

Andrew Duffy

MorningStar wrote:

Up to 10K on fixtures and fittings is standard around the lower stamp limit. The tax office know about this as common practive.
Your solicitor should have told you this was standard practice.

For a professional landlord who preaches from high every day on this board, you seem very willing to screw the rest of us by evading tax*. Any other things you don't pay your dues on?

* Unless, of course, you obey the law and use the total value of the transaction to calculate the stamp duty band and the value of the property to calculate the stampable amount. Since this would save less than €1,000 given a drop of €10,000 at any stamp duty rate, I doubt it's what you're talking about.

MorningStar

Andrew Duffy wrote:

For a professional landlord who preaches from high every day on this board, you seem very willing to screw the rest of us by evading tax*. Any other things you don't pay your dues on?

* Unless, of course, you obey the law and use the total value of the transaction to calculate the stamp duty band and the value of the property to calculate the stampable amount. Since this would save less than €1,000 given a drop of €10,000 at any stamp duty rate, I doubt it's what you're talking about.

Ring the tax office and see if it is legal. I avoid tax legally it is to evade tax that is illegal.
If you want to say something say it don't whisper it. I suggest you read what I said and stop trying to judge me incorrectly. If you don't like my beliefs add me to your ignore list
Did you ever manage to get that great place you wanted or have the prices effected you?

Cantab.

MorningStar wrote:

Ring the tax office and see if it is legal. I avoid tax legally it is to evade tax that is illegal.
If you want to say something say it don't whisper it. I suggest you read what I said and stop trying to judge me incorrectly. If you don't like my beliefs add me to your ignore list
Did you ever manage to get that great place you wanted or have the prices effected you?

lol, good on ya Morning Star! He's just a begrudger!

HashSlinging

A house I am interested in buying has been on the market for over 2 months, the estate agent has "lost" the keys and has been waiting for the vendor to replace them, this has been going on for over 2 months now, the house has had a lot of interest and the last time I called they had 40 people waiting to see it, also there have been bids made on the house, up to 325k by people who havent even seen the inside of it. This is crazy! :eek: it is advertised at 275k. Why cant the agency remove the listing and when they have the keys re-list the property, dirty tricks and I hope all estate agents rot in hell.

Here's the place :

http://www1.myhome.ie/search/property.asp?id=254710&np=&rt=search&searchlist=

MorningStar

HashSlinging wrote:

: it is advertised at 275k. Why cant the agency remove the listing and when they have the keys re-list the property, dirty tricks and I hope all estate agents rot in hell.

It will go fo more if you ask me. A nice big place with expansion posibilities in a nice area

I don't think any agent would loose keys as a trick. More likely we are talking about vendors who aren't in the country or inherieted property. I can't think of any logical trick to make up the loss of keys unless they really are trying to keep the price down.

Actually that is with Remax and I know friends in the US that actually had the quick sale motto mean the estate agent didn't show people the house. Call into a neighbour of the house and ask them to contact the owner and tell them what is going on. My friends found notes the day they signed which showed people trying to see the property and complaining about the estate agent.

GeorgeBailey

HashSlinging wrote:

Here's the place :

http://www1.myhome.ie/search/property.asp?id=254710&np=&rt=search&searchlist=

Oooh looks good. Must put in a bid of 330k. That should put the other bidders off.

homeOwner

MorningStar wrote:

I have managed to get see property first and then buy it for a €100 tip on seeing the property first. Not that is a lot less moral than fixtures and fittings.

This sounds suspicious to me. The estate agent is not acting "properly" by allowing someone to pay them to see the place first. You are implying that you gained an advantage by doing this (hence why would someone as experienced as you pay 100euro for nothing). Surely even if you saw it first, anyone else would have been allowed to view it after you and put in a fair bid.

The implication of what you have said is that only you saw it and then put in a bid that was accepted, thereby taking it off the market before the sellers had any idea if there was someone else interested and perhaps willing to pay more and this does not sound legal to me. The estate agents behaved in a very questionable manner here. Surely there is a moral issue here even if you didnt break the law. And at the very least the estate agents seem to have not acted in the best interests of the seller.

If this is not what you were implying can you clarify this as I dont get what the 100euro was for.

MorningStar

homeOwner wrote:

If this is not what you were implying can you clarify this as I dont get what the 100euro was for.

I paid to see the place first or be made aware of property as soon as it came on the market. How the estate agent acts after that is not my affair. I act completely legally and morally. I add an incentive to keep me informed nothing more or less. You know when you watch "location,Loaction, Location" and they see a property first that is becasue there is something in it for the agent. Mainly publicity in that case or maybe it is becasue there is a relationship with the presenters. Offering cash is no different. If you find it against your morals don't do it but you don't have a house yet and have complained about guide prices versus selling prices right? Maybe you need to realise the game you are playing and not expect it to work the way you want it to. Peace cost himself stamp duty due to "morals" but a normal legal method was avilable to him. Which do you want to think you did the right thing and pay €10k or follow reasonable business practice and not pay €10k?

Sponge Bob

I look forward to a declining market where the estate agent pays ME €100 to view the house first

homeOwner

MorningStar wrote:

I paid to see the place first or be made aware of property as soon as it came on the market.

I do understand that it is a "game", but I am asking you what the 100euro was for. Did they allow you to bid first and not let anyone else see it and go sale agreed on your bid OR did you just get to see it first, and then all the other sellers got to see it after that.

Allowing only one person to see a house and taking their bid (and I am assuming the bid was a reasonable one or else the sellers wouldnt have accepted) is illegal. Not on your part but on the part of the estate agent, although the fact that you paid them to act illegally, to me, would seem that you were a participant in their illegal activity. If on the other hand you paid them just to see it first and subsequently they let other people see it, I dont see how that is advantageous and I would like to know how it is.

As you pointed out I am looking for a house currently and I am trying to see what I am up against and what other people might be doing. The more info I have the better.

MorningStar

homeOwner wrote:

I do understand that it is a "game", but I am asking you what the 100euro was for. Did they allow you to bid first and not let anyone else see it and go sale agreed on your bid OR did you just get to see it first, and then all the other sellers got to see it after that.

I do not know what the estate agent does after I see the property all I know is I don't trust a word they say.

homeOwner wrote:

Allowing only one person to see a house and taking their bid (and I am assuming the bid was a reasonable one or else the sellers wouldnt have accepted) is illegal. Not on your part but on the part of the estate agent, although the fact that you paid them to act illegally, to me, would seem that you were a participant in their illegal activity. If on the other hand you paid them just to see it first and subsequently they let other people see it, I dont see how that is advantageous and I would like to know how it is.

I told you what I paid them for so stop suggesting what I do is illegal. The estate agent is hired to sell the house and I think you will find very few laws actually govern them. So state the law that says they must show the house to more than one person and tell them of all offers. I think you will find they are a self governing body and therfore not illegal to do many things people think are. As pointed out €100 isn't going to get a deal and if you don't understand the advantage of being the first bidder you are having serious problems understanding buying a house.
I suggest you never stop looking even when sale agreed or bidding. When you stop the estate agent know you are pinning hopes on the place and use that aginst you.

homeOwner wrote:

As you pointed out I am looking for a house currently and I am trying to see what I am up against and what other people might be doing. The more info I have the better.

THen I suggest you understand what the estate agent can do legally check what self governing sactions they have also. I may not in the market so I am not the threat in fact most investors are staying well away from property due to rent yields.

MorningStar

Sponge Bob wrote:

I look forward to a declining market where the estate agent pays ME €100 to view the house first

live in hope and on the promise of revenge I hear it is a healthy way to live:D

patrickolee

I know this is going against the general mood of the thread but I found a good estate agent. Bought my house off them last May, they were straight and honest. They let me know that it would be a slow sale as the current occupants had not found somewhere else to move to. Sale agreeded within 2 weeks. No coming looking for higher offers, which has happened to me with other estate agents similar to that mentioned earlier in this thread. Their good name....

Glavey auctioneers, crumlin. They sell a lot of houses in the Crumlin/Drimnagh area.

They aren't all bad out there, hope the good ones stay in business.

jdivision

Sponge Bob wrote:

Certain parts of Clondalkin are ONLY called Lucan because Liam Lawlor bribed the post office years ago. The post office are investigating this ...for at least 3 years but have not concluded the investigation yet . As the issue is still under investigation it is misleading of Gunne to call Adamstown 'lucan' although calling Adamstown 'adamstown' on its own is correct .

That investigation concluded nearly two years ago. From The Irish Times:

Fri, Aug 13, 04
An Post says staff did not change address
Tim O'Brien

The An Post investigation into whether former Fianna Fáil TD Mr Liam Lawlor was able to have a postal address changed in return for a financial contribution from a property developer, has exonerated An Post staff.

The investigation into claims by the property developer, Mr Séamus Ross of Menolly Homes, that Mr Lawlor asked him for more then €50,000 (£40,000) also found An Post made no decision to change the address of a housing estate from Clondalkin to Lucan.

The details of the investigation have been forwarded to the Mahon tribunal by An Post. It is understood An Post concluded that if the details of the alleged payment were correct, it was an unfortunate misunderstanding on Mr Ross's part, and one which had a happy outcome for Mr Lawlor.

Mr Lawlor has denied he ever received the payment or made any improper representations.

Victor

Please make sure

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Please attribute articles.

Andrew Duffy

MorningStar wrote:

Ring the tax office and see if it is legal. I avoid tax legally it is to evade tax that is illegal.
If you want to say something say it don't whisper it. I suggest you read what I said and stop trying to judge me incorrectly. If you don't like my beliefs add me to your ignore list
Did you ever manage to get that great place you wanted or have the prices effected you?

I have spoken to a professional about it, and it is illegal. The stamp duty band is determined by the total consideration, and you can consturct the deal such that the duty is paid at the full rate on just the price of the building for a very small saving. Paying under the counter, while being legally dubious for you and a tax problem for the seller, would also be viewed as a transaction designed to avoid paying tax and as such is illegal.

I bought a new 800 sq.ft. two-bed apartment in Dublin 4 with parking. Work out how much it cost if you like.

MorningStar

Andrew Duffy wrote:

I have spoken to a professional about it, and it is illegal. The stamp duty band is determined by the total consideration, and you can consturct the deal such that the duty is paid at the full rate on just the price of the building for a very small saving. Paying under the counter, while being legally dubious for you and a tax problem for the seller, would also be viewed as a transaction designed to avoid paying tax and as such is illegal.

I bought a new 800 sq.ft. two-bed apartment in Dublin 4 with parking. Work out how much it cost if you like.

Well ask the tax office like I said. Your "professional" doesn't sound very well informed or you did not explain it right. I bought expensive furniture and fitting becasue I liked them I just happened to buy the house off the same people. Two seperate deals. I wouldn't buy the furniture without the house becasue I would have no where for it.:D

I can work out your place isn't what you said you were going to be able to buy like I said. I am sure you spent a lot on it but I doubt it was worth it and I dislike appartments as a home. Of course I am not into flash and no bang but that is taste which some people never can buy. :cool:

lomb

Morningstar, paying cash for 'fixtures' that are attached to the property are part of the consideration. this includes carpets,curtains, fitted kitchen, fitted wardrobes, the toilet seat, the light holders, chandeliers etc.
if u paid 10grand for a sofa and u got away with it its not right, and u know it, and it is tax fraud. the fact that ireland has a history of protecting home owners and land owners means u will get away with it most proberly, but i can assure u its fraud.