Reality.

dlofnep

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9026920028377167942

Little short documentary on US Rangers.

damo

Pfff....bjj doesnt take into account the aggressive native monkeys in the jungle that swing from the above trees and throw bananas and coconuts at the bjj practitioner rolling around on the ground like an idiot, and man, dont even get me started on the hostile desert camels that those soldiers are gonna encounter - EVERYBODY knows the only way to counter a camel attack is with groin strikes. Bjj is a myth.

kenpo_dave

One of the guys on Yahoo just posted this. Pretty impressive.

Wing Tsun with some ground fighting.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1305848598469943665&q=kung+fu

Funny sound effects though.

I know its nothing to do with the original clip...sorry about that. Just seemed likke a good place to post it.

Roper

Yes, compliant partner work is always impressive isn't it?

Baggio...

Joint locks and chokes, will u get these when the guy wants to actually kill you? Dunno'.... . I reckon you going to end up just pounding each other, until one goes down. But personally I'd try and gouge the guys eyes out, I'm not going to try and wrestle him per se. Take the eyes and then continue the attack (well... that's the theory:D ).

Like the combat attitude though.

judomick

i like the bit where their fighting on the grass and it says sparring:D

dude needs a dictionary, whats all this stuff about bjj actually working and everyone knows iraqi insurgents have guns and knives us army are screwed

kenpo_dave

Baggio... wrote:

Joint locks and chokes, will u get these when the guy wants to actually kill you? Dunno'.... . I reckon you going to end up just pounding each other, until one goes down. But personally I'd try and gouge the guys eyes out, I'm not going to try and wrestle him per se. Take the eyes and then continue the attack (well... that's the theory:D ).

Like the combat attitude though.

Sure, why not? As long as you stay focused and calm theres no reason why joint manipulation and chokes wont work. Lets not forget that both are proven in MMA events all the time. Someone may actually want to kill you but if theyre just going to start hitting you then all you got to worry about is getting some bad bruising and perhaps some broken bones.

I reckon you going to end up just pounding each other, until one goes down

Do you mean just throwing strikes and hope that one or two hit targets?

Roper

Baggio... wrote:

Like the combat attitude though.

Recipe:
Take a maligned traditional art. Add three teaspoonfuls of "combat", a smidge of "reality", and a tablespoon full of "attitude", and hey presto, acceptance! Warning: never remove from compliancy as there is a danger it will implode.

Roper

Baggio... wrote:

Joint locks and chokes, will u get these when the guy wants to actually kill you? Dunno'.... . I reckon you going to end up just pounding each other, until one goes down. But personally I'd try and gouge the guys eyes out, I'm not going to try and wrestle him per se. Take the eyes and then continue the attack (well... that's the theory:D ).

Baggio, to deliver an eye gouge don't you think you'll need a good delivery system like wrestling? Otherwise, how have you got to the position to eye gouge him?
Have you ever tried the eye gouges in a sparring manner? I mean, two guys going at each other full on?

judomick

id say no.............way too dangerous dont try this at home kids

Roper

Goggles? Or gentlemens agreement not to "follow through"? That would be better than nothing at all surely?

judomick

silat liam once said that it takes 0.6 of a second to explode and eyeball, maybe someone should ask him , i think hes done it before

cormie

kenpo_dave wrote:

One of the guys on Yahoo just posted this. Pretty impressive.

Wing Tsun with some ground fighting.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1305848598469943665&q=kung+fu

Funny sound effects though.

I know its nothing to do with the original clip...sorry about that. Just seemed likke a good place to post it.

Jebus, imagine going to train with them guys and asking them to go easy on you. You'd probably leave with at least 18 broken bones.

I just hope I never piss anyone like that off, I'd be screwed, even with the moves I know from that Baz Rutten video:o

Baggio...

Interesting Kenpo Dave...
How many times have you been in a confrontation where some one has tried to kill you? NONE, I'll wager (like myself to be fair).... how calm have you actually been in a street fight? How many joint locks/manipulations have you put on in a live situation? MMA events are great sports – but these are not real. Why would I want to get someone in a lock anyway? When I could just try to pound the bejesus out of him, and then make my escape. Locks and manipulations can just elongate the fight – maybe a few of his mates are around the corner, or I don't get it on properly. To me it makes no sense...
I think you have been at Kenpo too long, remember when that stuff was created? It's not suitable for today's environment in my opinion. Remember why Combatives was created - to kill the enemy as quickly and efficiently as possible. Obviously for us civilians it's got to be toned down, but the mind set is still there (vehemence and artifice etc.).

Pounding people, Yup!, but these shots are delivered in a specific way, and at vulnerable targets. Although I can't guarantee I'll strike the intended target under stress, but I'll keep going until I do. It's a well thought out system that has been PROVEN to work under REAL combat conditions, unlike Kenpo. I did not invent the system, it's not a sports system that's disguised as a "combat" system. I mealy try to follow it as best I can. The guys I have looked to learn from are the real deal, they are not theory or sports fighters. Don't believe me? Why don't you get your mitts on Carl Cestari's OSC1 and OSC1 DVDs, this will give you an insight, then come back to me.

Roper,
Yes I do practise eye gouging as one guy said, we just use the goggles or touch the eyes (gently if no goggs. are around). Although I don't think that you need to be in a wrestling position to do so, as soon as you start into some kind of clinch - it can be immediately employed (but, if we need to do it from the ground that's fine). We can even gauge with our eyes closed, you simply track up the body find the ears and then gauge. Also, I gouge properly... there is a specific way of doing it with the thumbs to make it pretty nasty (you pump the thumbs as opposed to just shoving it in once). If you just poke the eye without a "pumping action", the eye will find a place to sit in the skull, thus making the strike no where near as effective. But if you keep pumping it will cause much trauma to the eye (again only to be employed if you life is threatened). This of course would be followed up by a barrage of strikes.
Remember I'll only gouge if the range is correct. If he's too close I'll head butt then gauge. If we want to go the ground fighting route that's OK (prefer not too, as his mates will stamp me into the ground), but in Combatives we train for all ranges. While the BJJ guys are doing their thing we will be doing something else to counter it (give it out best shot anyway - after all there are no guarantees in life).

Cheers,

Baggio.

kenpo_dave

Granted, no one has ever tried to kill me, but I was not talking about me. Intent and ability to make that intent happen are entirely different. And for your information joint manipulation can speed up a fight. The only people joint manipulation doesnt work on is those with high levels of pain tolerence. Ive had people in Kenpo and otherwise come up to me claiming to be able to take pain and everytime Ive made them drop to their knees or whatever, and everyone does the same thing when particular techniques are done. So, when the person reacts to the pain you have the opportunity for a clean strike. The Chinese police use Chin Na in their self defense system.
As for Kenpo. Ed Parker taught his system to the LAPD who tested it in their work and in turn helped develop it into what we have today. So Kenpo HAS been proven to work. Whats more, Parker consulted Bruce Lee alot and both Lee and Benny Urquidez helped Parker tutor the instructors of the first Kenpo schools so that the quality of the instruction was high.

In my opinion its harder to make some techniques work in an MMA event then in a "street fight" as you are fighting athletes, people who devote most of their lives to training, instead of a thug/scumbag with little or no training.

I was just looking at some of Carl Cestari's techniques on youtube...theres very little, if any, difference between them and what we do in Kenpo.

Baggio...

I'm not in law enforcement, so joint locks for me are a moot point. Very important if you are in that type of career for sure. I'm not saying manipulation techniques wont hurt people, and make them submit – of course they will in a Dojo (compliant partners as per usual). Try it on the street, and see how easy it is put one on a guy who throws a flurry of punches at you. Like I asked you before, how many joint locks or manipulations have you used in a real confrontation??

Hey, don't get me wrong, those MMA guys are well tough, and I would not like to go up against one – but you saw that guy getting stuck with a blade, he nearly died. I'm just saying that it's a sports driven system, which I'm not into. I believe that other avenues have to be explored in ones training all the time. I don't just stick to Combatives – I try to look at as much as possible, and if someone is using or doing something in a better way - I'll use it. I try to have an open mind believe it or not. And remember what advantage a street thug has – surprise.

Just another couple of points: If your manipulation or lock fails your back to square one, assuming the “thug” has not beaten the crap out of you while you were wasting time going for his arm, after all... People generally wont let themselves get grabbed so easily, and wont wait to attack you. Police officers and the like can use those techniques, as they usually have the man power to do so (3 or 4 officers against one guy etc.).

Hmm... here's a good way to test my hypothesis. Go down to a boxing club and get a decent boxer, and ask him to attack you full contact. Get him to throw a flurry of fast and hard punches. See how many manipulations and locks you get. Let me know how you get on.

Cheers,

Baggio.

kenpo_dave

Well it does seem you have sound ideas, not too different from my own. But I think you have the wrong idea about joint manipulation. Submissions are only for law enforcement officers and sports fighters. Joint manipulation can be used however in a combat system. If done with sufficient force joint locks can tear ligaments and tendons and more importantly can be used to open 'doors' for devastating strikes.

No I havent used joint manipulation in a real fight, and I dont actively train in it anymore. But that doesnt mean that it doesnt work.

Regards

Dave

And I dont have enough skill in joint manipulation to make it work on a boxer.

Baggio...

Dave,

I guess you could say I don't have the skill or confidence to put a manipulation technique on a street attacker under stress. And to be honest, I personally doubt many poeple around could use such a technique on a boxer. I have been at the butt of manipulation techs many a time in a Dojo, and I have no doubt that they could tear your tendons apart (bloody mind numbingly painful to:) ).

Good talking to ya',

Baggio.

PS - some talented Kenpoists in that Rathdown club

kenpo_dave

Baggio... wrote:

Dave,

I guess you could say I don't have the skill or confidence to put a manipulation technique on a street attacker under stress. And to be honest, I personally doubt many poeple around could use such a technique on a boxer. I have been at the butt of manipulation techs many a time in a Dojo, and I have no doubt that they could tear your tendons apart (bloody mind numbingly painful to:) ).

Good talking to ya',

Baggio.

PS - some talented Kenpoists in that Rathdown club

Ye, from what Ive learned it takes a long time of drilling joint manipulation techniques to even get near the level of skill needed to effectively use them in reality.

Ye good talking to you too. Im sure we'll have many more discussions

Regards

Dave.

Colm_OReilly

Baggio, from your posts it seems like you have zero knowledge/experience of any sort of grappling, wrestling, or sparring for that matter.

As for the "try a lock and if it doesn't work you're back to square one" comment what if you throw a punch and it doesn't knock the guy out, you're back to square one then, surely? I understand that you'd have to have sparred a bit to understand this. What happens if you break your hand trying to pound each other.

I know you're big into Combatives and RBSD but Millionaire has probably done the most research into this and he's always talking about sparring, and I've never heard him talk down about training with some good judoka or bjjers.

Try some sparring in SBG some night.

Baggio...

Hmm... zero knowledge? Well, if you say so (don't think I'm a big shot, just a guy with average skills).

Three yeas on the door (I know there are blokes out there that have done shed loads more than that), over fifteen years of various Mar Arts. I've done a lot of hardcore sparring. So I've done a bit.

Yes, millionaire has done loads of research... so have I. All this stuff has been done by bigger and better people than me. Hmm... I think you should take stock of what you are saying. How many street fights have you had - where does your first hand knowledge come from? Why would I take you opinion before some one like Kelly Mac Cann's etc.? I'm not talking about wrestling some lad in a Dojo.

"What if you throw a punch, and it does not knock the bloke out", what type of comment is that?
Just throw another punch, then another and another - get the pattern? YOU DONT STOP UNTIL THE MAN IS DOWN....

I'm not running these arts down at all, I have a lot of respect for BJJ and the like. I think you are forgetting that I'm not into sports. I'm not saying you can't use BJJ in the street, course you can. But personally I think that combatives is a better way to go. Well it is for me, I have used it in the past. You want to lock and wrestle blokes up - enjoy. I'd prefer a different approach. So it shows me you have virtually no knowledge of what Combatives is about, you think they don't think about groundwork or grappling? Very Naive....

Again how many joint locks or manipulations have you done against a committed attacker, who is throwing a flurry of punches Colm?
People in the street don't generally throw one now do they? You don't get the chance to lock some one up, very useful is you have softened the guy up before hand maybe, but personally I'd rather make my way to the nearest exit.

Cheers,

Bagigo.

breadmonkey

This is so repetitive it makes me wince to read.

Baggio,

Why don't you just try some wrestling/BJJ/MMA before going any deeper into this argument. John will have you down for free (I think!) so there's no excuse.

judomick

baggio, maybe i missed something here? when your working the door and a fight breaks out rather than restrain the guy you just pound him? sounds like the gardai would love you

joint locks work against boxers see Royce in ufc (forget which one) ahhh but its sport lol

i work the "door" in over a year ive been in many altercations and have never thrown one punch let alone two, ive had several people throw a flurry at me and everytime there so committed, i double leg them put them down hard and step back they try again they get thrown again, you get the pattern?

come down to SBG as Colm says, btw this is a friendly offer to open your mind a little, cmon take the red pill

Roper

Baggio... wrote:

Again how many joint locks or manipulations have you done against a committed attacker, who is throwing a flurry of punches Colm?
People in the street don't generally throw one now do they? You don't get the chance to lock some one up, very useful is you have softened the guy up before hand maybe, but personally I'd rather make my way to the nearest exit.

I'm actually going to answer this one, even though it's batantly addressed to Colm!!!
Colm and a few others here have rolled and sparred with me, and know my level as a wrestler/grappler, I'm an intermediate at best, about 2 years training on and off in BJJ I think, at this stage.
I have put joint locks/manipulations on commited attackers throwing big digs. And like I said, I'm not that good. I've sparred with experienced boxers/kickboxers and applied arm bars, chokes etc. with little or no problem if they're new to the game, with more difficulty when they've a few weeks under their belt.

Once again Baggio it comes down to delivery system, once that's solid you can go on to use your strikes/locks.

Baggio...

Your right all right though to be fair in one way....My wrestling skills/Bjj/grappling are not too good, I'd be the first one to admit that. I have no interest in training in those particular skills. That does not mean that I'm saying they are crap in any way. They are great skills no doubt...As long as YOU think that you can make them work outside, when the time comes. Just because I don't want to use them doesn't mean they wont work.

However, we practice different methods of ground fighting and “anti grappling”. Which I feel I (personally) could make work on the street. Will they work against one of you guys, who are trained in BJJ? Dunno... maybe, depends on the individual. There are Combatives guys out there that are so good, that I'd be very interested in seeing a good BJJ guy go one to one (remember we have no rules). Ask Millionaire what Combatives guys do to someone that has that type of training.

Regarding my door experience, your right I never pounded away at people (I was never a “thug Doorman”). There were a couple of times we were attacked, and we had no other choice but to fight back (punching etc.). Can't say we used a lot of joint locks/manipulation though, a few restraining techniques alright. Most of the time is was just outnumber the guy then drop him to the floor, and then hold him down with body weight (possibly a knee on his head).

When I refer to a “flurry of punches”, I am speaking from my own experiences. When I was attacked in Leppardstown, the last thing on my mind was grabbing some guy and going to the floor. I just ended up punching until the threat was gone. Worked for me on a couple of occasions.

I think you guys are forgetting that I'm not interested in training, for fighting - a trained BJJ or Grappler etc. (OK if it happens I'll try to deal with it as best I can). I'm interested in beating the “street mugger” or “Scummer”. I'm not running down your Judo, BJJ or Wrestling skills. You want to use those skills, best of luck and I hope it works out. For me PERSONALLY, I'll stick to what I know. So apologies if you all felt that I was taking the piss out of you art, I was not....I just have my own way of doing stuff.

But for Colm to say that I have had no experiance, especially in Full contact sparring or groundfighting (OK it 'aint BJJ or MMA) he's very wrong.

Cheers,

Baggio.

PS - Roper if you have put locks and manipulations on "Commited Attackers" as you say, who are throwing of punches at you - fair play, I don't possess such skills. I'll just stick to my heel palms elbows and knees (and a few other nasty tricks).

Colm_OReilly

So let me get this straight - BJJ/Wrestling/MMA will work against a trained athlete, who knows what he's doing, has an understanding of the dynamics of combat and the applications of the movement, is in shape, has an understanding of what you're trying to do BUT won't work against some untrained, alcohol fueled scumbag who's recklessly throwing punches at you? Mmmmm....

Baggio...

Colm.... You are missing my point entirely (maybe I a bit was unclear).

Here goes:
If you can use those skills in the street - Great! If YOU can make them work for you GREAT! I'm not saying they wont work in a live situation. What I'm saying is that I personally would choose not to employ such styles on the street (even if I could use 'em). I would choose a different approach. It's worked for me in the past.... so as the saying goes: if it 'aint broke.....

I'm not saying those skills are not good in any way, I've seen Geoff Thompson employ the Gracie's techniques against punchers many times, very effectively. But I 'aint Geoff Thompson (unfortunately). I'm sure you have used you skills on many many “alcohol fuelled scumbag who's recklessly throwing punches at you “. Again if you make it work - stick to it!!! But why can't I just go the gouging route maybe then land a headbutt - assuming I let him get close which again, personally I would not want. I'd rather have mu opponant at punching range. If he gets past then I change the range. Just my take, you have your own.

I'm not asking anyone to follow me.... It's just an opinion drawn from my own experiences, and from certain instructors that I would greatly respect.

I PERSONALLY will stick to this type of thing, you guys might not like it, but it's what I would be more into, might give you some idea of where I'm coming from:

http://www.urbancombatives.com/countergrapplingcourse.htm

Cheers,

Baggio.

BTW - Colm You don't really watch that Amaerican Wrestling stuff, right?

Baggio...

Okay...

Here's a question for you Wrestlers, Judo, Grapplers and BJJ guys etc.

And before I start this off, I'm in no way slaging you or your skills or style.
I'm also not saying that I have a better way, or more realistic defence. So this is a learning question gentlemen, and not - “my style is better than your style”. Fair enough?
From your point of you, you guys like to get in close to an opponent? Get him in a lock/choke etc. Would I be correct in assuming that?

So lets take a plausible scenario. Some scummer pulls a knife on you and has the intent to use it, what do you do? (let us suppose you are in a confined space and can't run) If you get in close and try for a grab/choke or whatever he me may stab you multiple times. So in your respective styles what'd the best way to over come such an obstacle?

Again, don't know if I have any real answers myself, I have a few theory's, and techniques - can't say I could make them work under stress. Luckily no one has ever pulled an knife on me.

Cheers,

Baggio.

Colm_OReilly

STAB - Survival Tactics Against Blades is a program designed by Karl Tanswell based on the positions and skills or Greco Roman wrestling with some modifications for the knife.

As Karl told us, when he thought it to me first, was that in a knife fight, it's going to be over in a few seconds, either with him disarmed and you seeking emergency medicine, or you just seeking emergency medicine.

Millionaire

I from a Combatives perspective, can fight on the ground, with getting back on my feet being the goal. its nothing more than a bit of very basic ground work, mixed with Combatives stuff, and dirty tricks dept.!

I know the vast majority of trained say BJJ men or ground men, would beat me in seconds the ground. I know cause John at SBG showed me.

Have I used my stuff on the ground against a alcohol fueled thug, Yes I have, and I was on the back leg too, and grounded and getting pounded, by a big heavy thug. A quick succession of rapid fire eye jabs (borrowed from wing chun Bil Jee...I think!!!) sorted him out, and had him whimpering like a baby in seconds. anyway he deserved it, he though I was someone else, and jumped on me in rathmines and tried to throw me through the window of chartbuster video, butted me, and landed a few punches on me, before I knew what was happening, and started to fight back..and I won! LOL!!

Actually I was very impressed by that Video.

What caught my attention was the Rangers BJJ instructor said he has it isolated down to about 13 moves, and he can teach some one in 5 - 10 hours how to do it.

Is this the case?

Can someone learn and master the basics in 5 - 10 hours.???

(maybe we will see some become a purple belt in a weekend courses soon...if you pay the fee of course!!! LOL!!)

My point is, based on what I have said and personally used on the ground, and my visit to SBG. the best idea is to learn the BJJ basics, perfect them, and then mix that with the CQC stuff I already know.

Then you will have skills in all ranges. and be a better SD man!

Thats my goal to get basics down and get good with a few basic techniques.

Yes good video, interesting to see.

Colm_OReilly

Mill,

I'm sure, over the course of ten hours, JK could communicate the basic techniques and principles of zhoo zhitsu. To master them, on the other hand, would be impossible in the same time span. Fighting (and be prepared everyone, I'm going to use sporting analogies here) is a skill based activity, with skill being even more important than technique. For example, you could do a technically poor armbar/choke but still catch your opponent because your timing was good and their defences lacking.

Also, in a skill based sport, you need to develop skill in order to hone your technique. It's only by trying out your technique in a skill setting (going Live) that you will be able to notice holes in the technique. To develop skill takes a long time, and never ends, really.

Contrast fighting with other sports. Rowing is a technical sport with high physiological demands. After a certain level, improvements in technique no longer yield the best results, but rather improvements in fitness.

Gymnastics would be a technical sport, with physiological ability up to a level where your muscles don't fatigue during your routine. The perfection of technique in gymnastics is what wins competitions. It becomes less vital the more skill is introduced.

Obviously, this model is simplified so that we can abstract the core concepts, and I've ignored tactics and strategy, which are predominantly the reserve of team sports.

Bet you were looking for a simple "yes" or "no", hey Mill?

breadmonkey

Baggio, serious quesion.

If someone attacks you, do you really think it is necessary to gouge their eyes out, as opposed to putting them to sleep?

I'll paraphrase something Clive said a while ago. When the Guards arrive, which do you think looks worse for you: A guy lying unconcious, but otherwise (relatively) unscathed, or a guy crawling around in a pool of blood searching for his eys(s)?

Baggio...

BreadMonkey,
You bring up a valid point... Eye gouging is a horrible technique, and you could make somebody visually impaired for life. So it's a huge responsibility. As I pointed out before I would only use this technique if my life depended on it.
It's not a move to be used on some guy who grabs your parking space. But if somebody was trying to kill me or my girlfriend – yes I'd rip their eyes out. Then if I was arrested so be it, I'll take my chances in court (gulp:( ) – after all it would be self-defense.

Would you not do it to save you life or a loved one?

Cheers,

Baggio

Baggio...

Gotta' agree with Mill,
Series of eye jabs, mixed with Combatives groundwork. Priority is then to get back on ones feet and run like hell.

Baggio...

How about we change the dynamic of the first scenario?

Lets remove the knife and add 2 mates, so now you are dealing with three committed scumbags who are going try and kick the bejesus out of you (but again you are in a confined space, and can't escape). So if you end up on the floor with one, and you are doing whatever technique. What strategy are you going to use against the other 2 scumers that start to come in (kicks, stamps etc.), while you are on the floor? What do you think is the best tactic to fight your way out?
Again, I can't say that I have a better solution, but I would be interested if anyone has a few ideas. It's a pretty scary scenario, but fairly plausible at the same time:( .

For example, Geoff Thompson is considered to be a pretty decent ground fighter – however he says himself it's the last place he would rather be, on the ground . Especially if there are mates involved. Would you guys agree with his statement?

Cheers,

Baggio.

MaxBax

baggio,

you didn't make any point there that hasn't been raised before.

max

Dragan

Baggio... wrote:

so now you are dealing with three committed scumbags who are going try and kick the bejesus out of you.What strategy are you going to use against the other 2 scumers that start to come in (kicks, stamps etc.), while you are on the floor?

Traditionally speaking you are going to get the bejesus kicked out of you.

Ever been in this situation yourself? In real life now, not in some drill or another.

Baggio...

Dragon,

More so if you were on the ground to start with, very little chance of escaping In my opinion.

Well... I have been in a slightly worse scenario, believe it or not. It consisted of a group of 4 blokes and one girl. My fault really, they were taking the piss I told them to F off. BANG!! it was over pretty quickly. Luckily I was only a bit bruised and battered – they could have killed me if they wanted to.

Like I said, I'm not saying that I have any perfect solutions. I don't think there are any. The drills are good fun tho':)

dlofnep

Baggio - I think the problem here is how you emphasised on how skeptical you were on applying a hold against a guy who is trying to kill you or is flipping out on you in the street.

1. Nobody is trying to kill you. Nobody probably ever will. Nor will anyone every try to kill anyone you know.

2. Regardless, just because someone is going balls out on the street doesn't mean anything. MMA is trained in a resisting enviroment - We are obviously well equipped to deal with anyone who goes balls out. We call them "spazzes". New guys who go mental in their first few classes using all their energy because they don't have any technique. They end up tiring themselves out and losing. This also applys in a street fight. The only difference is ,the guy on the street doesn't expect any of these chokes or holds which makes him actually easier to apply it on.

I think that about covers all I wanted to say.

Baggio...

Dlofnep,

You're right I am probably over skeptical and a bit of a cynic. I'd rather over train than under train.

But I have a few problems with your points.
You're right it's very very rare that someone is ever going to be out to kill you. Doesn't mean it can't happen – but very unlikely. If you're stabbed the guy probably did not intend you to die, just get you wallet. Those 4 rugby guys probably did not intend to kill that kid outside Annabel's. The list goes on and on.... Do I want to end up in hospital for a few months? Not really... happened to a mate of mine. Small guy, got jumped by 3 scobes - they broke his eye socket, arm, and a few ribs. He has screws holding his cheek in place. He's a decent lad never hurt anyone.

Also, I don't train for chokes, locks manipulations etc. So I couldn't put one on in a fit. I in no way said that you or Colm couldn't do it. But from a combative point of view I prefer striking first, then if something goes wrong i.e. Scobie gets to close then I'll change the range.

I'm not referring to YOUR skills, or YOUR strategy. I can only speak for myself. I 'ant saying that BJJ guys and MMA guys aren't tough or can't handle themselves. I just prefer “Combatives” tactics. Personal opinion, not trying to offend anyone here.

Cheers,

Baggio.

Roper

Baggio... wrote:

Also, I don't train for chokes, locks manipulations etc. So I couldn't put one on in a fit. I in no way said that you or Colm couldn't do it. But from a combative point of view I prefer striking first, then if something goes wrong i.e. Scobie gets to close then I'll change the range.

You're not making any sense here. You're saying that you don't train for chokes, locks submissions, ie. clinch. But that you'd be ready for the clinch after strikes have failed, despite having not trained in it?

dlofnep

Baggio... wrote:

Dlofnep,

You're right I am probably over skeptical and a bit of a cynic. I'd rather over train than under train.

But I have a few problems with your points.
You're right it's very very rare that someone is ever going to be out to kill you. Doesn't mean it can't happen – but very unlikely. If you're stabbed the guy probably did not intend you to die, just get you wallet. Those 4 rugby guys probably did not intend to kill that kid outside Annabel's. The list goes on and on.... Do I want to end up in hospital for a few months? Not really... happened to a mate of mine. Small guy, got jumped by 3 scobes - they broke his eye socket, arm, and a few ribs. He has screws holding his cheek in place. He's a decent lad never hurt anyone.

Also, I don't train for chokes, locks manipulations etc. So I couldn't put one on in a fit. I in no way said that you or Colm couldn't do it. But from a combative point of view I prefer striking first, then if something goes wrong i.e. Scobie gets to close then I'll change the range.

I'm not referring to YOUR skills, or YOUR strategy. I can only speak for myself. I 'ant saying that BJJ guys and MMA guys aren't tough or can't handle themselves. I just prefer “Combatives” tactics. Personal opinion, not trying to offend anyone here.

Cheers,

Baggio.

I'm not offended, and from what I gathered, that was only a problem with one of my points?

My point was that not everyone is hellbent on killing you. But just because someone wants to kill you doesn't mean that they are anymore capable of beating you unless they start introducing guns or something, which I'm afraid not even BJJ can save you from.

You don't have much faith in grappling, but I think you should go to one of the guy's gyms here and at least see for yourself. I'm sure whatever you do you're content with but there is never any harm in broadening your abilities.

Baggio...

Dlofnep,

Fair point....
I don't have a problem with grappling per se. It's just ME trying to grapple:) . Combatives ground skills are actually quite comprehensive but simple, so I guess that's why I tend to gravitate towards them. Also, I have a fear of going to ground, and getting kicked or stamped to death. I guess in self-protection circles going to ground is the big no no. Grapplers are acknowledged at being the best guys for their range – G. Thompson has always said if you get into a ground fight with a grappler (and he knows what he's doing) he'll destroy you. This is why I train for the range just before that (punching range).
Also, you could say that it's very unlikely a street attacker will have any decent ground skills. And in Combatives we use the same tactic the element of surprise - if and when it goes to ground. Did you have a look at the link I posted earlier? The Urban Combatives anti-grappling course. Worth a look, might give you an insight into our side of things. But as you said on the grappling, it would do me know harm to check it out and give it another go. It could only enhance my skills, and maybe open my mind to new things.

On the killing side of things you are right, Combatives tends to bring out that kind of paranoid attacker mentality, and overplay ones attacker. I guess the mentality where my strategy comes from can be summed up from a quote from Senshido's Richard Dimitri. “Train for the Terminator and all else will pail in comparison”.
(well that the theory anyhoo':) )

Good talking to you,

Bagg.

Millionaire

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Bet you were looking for a simple "yes" or "no", hey Mill?

I guess its the same as me showing someone the basics of CQC strikes. I could do that in a hour. but can I make them part of you so much that you can use them in an hour. NO! that skill will take 1000s of reps, training the strikes, using boxing to also train them (so you can spar etc).

So no did not expect a simple answer.

Actually, I do not believe that Ranger, when he says he can teach them in 5 hours. sure, he can show them, but can they become so skilled to use it (bjj) , in a live situation in 5 hours?

From the little bit of bjj style ground work I have seen, and I got to do some in Israel too, I found it difficult to learn, and I would think (IMHO) it would take me many months, of consistent practice to learn it. (and time permitting I will soon!)

Colm_OReilly

Baggio, there's a range in between punching and ground, called "clinch", it's pretty important.

Millionaire

Clinch is real important.

I thought I new a bit about clinch, when I came here I realised in, knew very little.

It amazes me how strong, little light guys who are experts in clinch can be, and how they can easily control me.

I get to do an hour of clinch most days here. have almost put the back and neck out a few times, with guys grabbin the back of me head!!!!

Baggio...

Yes there sure is Colm...
We train for it constantly, as Mill has just pointed out.

Clinch work is one of the backbone concepts behind Combatives. I.E. - control the head, fire in knee strikes etc.
We do plenty of stuff for that range. It really is too hard for me to try and explain the nuances of CQC clinch work over an email. I could show you guys physically, but it's hard to explain stuff like "branching" etc.

I guess could have mentioned Clinch work earlier - but I was more interested in speaking on the ground fighting side.
Hope that clears up the issue.

Cheers,

Baggio.

PS – I don't think that I am some “clinching expert”, I still have loads to learn, like Mill said.

judomick

baggio, id be interested in seeing the combatives approach to clinch hope you can make it to the the next boards meet, im very interested in all this cqc rbsd stuff

Millionaire

I threw in a few Combtives knees in a bit of clinch work by accident, to the tight muscle.... it was kind of funny to see a Pro Thai boxer whinge and moan and hobble for a while hee hee hee ;-) anyway I deserved some revenge after near getting my neck cracked out of place!

They actually get a bit sulky, if you better them at their own game on the rare occassion!

Millionaire

judomick wrote:

baggio, id be interested in seeing the combatives approach to clinch hope you can make it to the the next boards meet, im very interested in all this cqc rbsd stuff

did you see the review that Baggio posted on

www.urbancombatives.com

It was about a CQC anti grappling course.

sorry do not have exact link.

its further up the thread.

This gives you a very good idea into CQC and combatives.

Baggio...

Thanks Mill,

B.